Thoughts on modesty

[Jenamarie]

Disagree strongly. Predators look for targets. Dressing immodestly attracts attention.

And yet, there's the above example of an elderly lady raped while laying in her bed in her home. There was a news-making event in my area of an elderly homeless lady who was also raped (it made headlines because she fought back and scratched the guy up pretty darn good). There is far far more than just clothing that attracts those types of people to a victim. Modestly dressed women are *also* raped.

I wonder - who would argue with this:

How to minimize your chances of being robbed in public:

1. Avoid dangerous places where people get robbed.

2. Be aware of your surroundings - spot and avoid risky situations and people.

3. Don't flash bling - keep your expensive stuff locked in your car, or hidden from view in a bag or wallet. Leave the expensive or flashy jewlery behind.

Now, let's reword some of Jenmarie's post with this in mind:

I suppose that I can agree with everything there - except that by following the line of reasoning ends up getting you robbed or beaten. And getting robbed or beaten isn't fun.

I'd rather spend energy avoiding the bad thing in the first place than avoiding guilt. There's a problem walking down dark alleys with your head buried in your six hundred dollar iPad. After you get jacked, you ought to realize how your actions helped made you a target - it will help you not be a target in the future. Do you bear the sin of the robber? No - the robber bears the sin of the robber. The guy with his head in his iPad, only bears the sin of being dumb or clueless. No, that sin didn't justify the robber. It just enabled the robber.

Really - the world is full of predators. Refusing to take steps to protect yourself from them, because if they attack you it's their sin not yours, seems to be not the brightest choice.

I don't argue that we should take precautions, my argument is with the mindset that a woman dressing a certain way is "asking" to be treated in such a way, which is where I see this kind of thought process (dress modestly to avoid the sickos!) as leading. You can look at some Middle Eastern countries were women are practically walking around in clothing as flattering to the figure as a flour sack, and rape and molestation *still* happens, even with all the "precautions".

There are so many OTHER reasons, wonderful reasons, to dress modestly: honoring our Covenants with the Lord, showing respect for the wonderful bodies He has blessed us with, being in the world but not OF the world, etc. I would much rather the emphasis be placed on those aspects of modestly, rather than on "how it affects others", because too often I've seen people place the blame on the "immodestly dressed" person (even if they weren't *that* immodestly dressed) for something very wrong that happened to them, and it multiplies their pain.

Perhaps this is a sensitive topic for me because, as a woman, I encounter the effects of that kind of thought process fairly often. I'm a naturally large chested woman, and even dressed in fully-Temple-Garment-covering clothing, I still sometimes catch men staring at my chest. It's NOT because I'm showing cleavage, or don't respect myself, or am dressing a certain way *specifically* to attract that kind of attention. But I *refuse* to wear a burlap sack or a mumu (which is what it would take to disguise my chest enough) to prevent those types of men looking at me. The sin IS on them, not on me, and I'm not going to bed over backwards to accomodate a flaw in some men's character.

Edited July 30, 2011 by Jenamarie

[JudoMinja]

I'm finding myself agreeing with both of you, Jenamarie and LM though your points seem contradictory... I think the key is finding the balance, because while it is important to understand that the victim is not responsible for the actions of the criminal, it is also important to understand that certain actions will make us more likely targets.

In many ways, when a person dresses immodestly, they really are "asking for it", especially if they are also neglecting their safety by walking alone in a seedy neighborhood or parking on a date (date rape is far more common than "random" sexual crimes). However, that does not make them responsible for being victimized. It is still the "predator" that made the choice to "attack".

The thing is, it's not about bending over backwards to accomodate the flaws of men's character. It's about looking out for our own safety. Some men (and some women) just ARE predators. Nothing we say or do will change that. Ignoring the fact that predators are out there and knowingly attracting their attention is dangerous for our own safety. Being modest and following other precautions for self-defense is just the smart thing to do, since predators will look for the easy opportunities. Keep yourself safe, and (most likely) you won't become a victim.

[Jenamarie]

I'm finding myself agreeing with both of you, Jenamarie and LM though your points seem contradictory... I think the key is finding the balance, because while it is important to understand that the victim is not responsible for the actions of the criminal, it is also important to understand that certain actions will make us more likely targets.

In many ways, when a person dresses immodestly, they really are "asking for it", especially if they are also neglecting their safety by walking alone in a seedy neighborhood or parking on a date (date rape is far more common than "random" sexual crimes). However, that does not make them responsible for being victimized. It is still the "predator" that made the choice to "attack".

The thing is, it's not about bending over backwards to accomodate the flaws of men's character. It's about looking out for our own safety. Some men (and some women) just ARE predators. Nothing we say or do will change that. Ignoring the fact that predators are out there and knowingly attracting their attention is dangerous for our own safety. Being modest and following other precautions for self-defense is just the smart thing to do, since predators will look for the easy opportunities. Keep yourself safe, and (most likely) you won't become a victim.

I'm not saying we shouldn't take precautions. Not at all. But show me a study that shows a corralation between immodest dress and increased risk of rape, incest, or molestation. I'm not finding any thus far.

[NeuroTypical]

There is far far more than just clothing that attracts those types of people to a victim. Modestly dressed women are *also* raped.

True. Avoiding being a victim (whether of rape or robbery or identity theft or what have you) involves being aware of how to minimize your risk. Focusing solely on clothing would be a waste of time. But totally ignoring one risky behavior because placing appropriate blame is more important, is a mistake too.

I don't argue that we should take precautions, my argument is with the mindset that a woman dressing a certain way is "asking" to be treated in such a way, which is where I see this kind of thought process (dress modestly to avoid the sickos!) as leading.

So let's see if we can agree on a set of things:

* Dressing modestly is good.

* Getting violated is bad.

* Minimizing risk is good.

* Blaming the victim is bad.

* Innapropriate guilt is horrible and soul-crushing, and should be avoided.

It seems to me like we agree on the main points, we're just chosing to emphasize different ones.

The sin IS on them, not on me, and I'm not going to bend over backwards to accomodate a flaw in some men's character.

Totally agree. Burlap sacks and burqas and other such extremes 1- are undue burdens of free people, and 2 - still is no guarantee of safety. You take reasonable precautions to minimize risk - and living in a all-female commune is not reasonable.

We're raising my girls to be modest and streetsmart. We're teaching them when bad guys try bad things, it's not because my girls deserve it. We're also sending them to self-defense classes twice a day, so they'll be able to handle things.

All good?

Edited July 30, 2011 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[Jenamarie]

All good. :)

[JudoMinja]

I'm not saying we shouldn't take precautions. Not at all. But show me a study that shows a corralation between immodest dress and increased risk of rape, incest, or molestation. I'm not finding any thus far.

I didn't go looking for one, but I'm pretty sure you're right that there are not any actual studies on this YET. I know the correlation between how we dress and how we both act and are treated is something that has hardly been touched on in psychological studies. Studies that have been done though have found a very striking correlation between dress and behavior, both of the person wearing the clothes and those interacting with the person.

So I think that when the professional psychological community gets around to doing a study on it, we will probably find a correlation between immodest dress and an increased risk of sexual crime. It will just take some time, because the other factors in looking out for your safety are going to be much stronger and more "important" as they really drive and set up the conditions for it. And because setting up a good control study for something like that would just be wrong... We can only go off of case studies of situations where someone already was victimized and give others advice on what to avoid doing based on the similarities between these victims.

[toughdee]

To be honest I am very surprised at the level of offense here. The overall point is that we have been told to be modest. I commend you for encouraging women to do so. I think that many of the points made may seem a little off, but the concept is true. Why can't we just all agree that many women dress immodestly, it is hard for men to deal with, and that 1. men should encourage women to be modest rather than encourage immodesty and 2. women should not feel like they have to conform and be immodest to fit in.

[mightynancy]

To be honest I am very surprised at the level of offense here. The overall point is that we have been told to be modest. I commend you for encouraging women to do so. I think that many of the points made may seem a little off, but the concept is true. Why can't we just all agree that many women dress immodestly, it is hard for men to deal with, and that 1. men should encourage women to be modest rather than encourage immodesty and 2. women should not feel like they have to conform and be immodest to fit in.

While I agree in theory, modesty is about much more than clothing, and isn't just a worldly-women-lead-helpless-men-astray issue.

Why is modesty speech always aimed at the women?

[toughdee]

Why is modesty speech always aimed at the women?

I know it seems like this and there is a good reason in my opinion. Men tend to encourage women to be immodest and therefore women tend to be. Women don't really extend the same feelings about men and so it isn't so much of an issue. The beautiful creation that is 'woman' deserves to be respected and held sacred. The males don't necessarily need to worry in the same ways about modesty because in most cases what would be immodest for men is just unacceptable in today's culture. If men went around wearing speedos, form fitting leggings, or were allowed to go in public with no shirt on; I would consider those things immodest. We usually don't though haha (hopefully).

The main point is that it is hard for men to think of a woman in a respectful manner if she is not modest.

On another point. I have a question I am curious about. Do you consider men who wear sleeveless shirts/tank tops to be immodest? Obviously if there are garments underneath they shouldn't be shown, but what about youth. Young women are told to cover up their shoulders, what about men? Just curious at your opinions.

[toughdee]

"Immodesty is completely subjective. A "modest" Mormon woman with loose-fitting clothing that completely covered her garments would be seen as walking pornography in some parts of the world.

I think the way it should be looked at is that there are pretty basic guidelines given that attribute modest dress, especially for women. If a culture is different and requires more cover up, then that is fine.

I do agree with you point, I just think it could be looked at as a "minimum requirement" so to speak in America. If other cultures require more, there is no shame in that.

It used to be that ankles shouldn't show from your dress. Would it have been immodest (in the Lord's eyes)? I doubt it, but culturally it wasn't accepted.

My two cents on that...

[Jenamarie]

I know it seems like this and there is a good reason in my opinion. Men tend to encourage women to be immodest and therefore women tend to be. Women don't really extend the same feelings about men and so it isn't so much of an issue. The beautiful creation that is 'woman' deserves to be respected and held sacred. The males don't necessarily need to worry in the same ways about modesty because in most cases what would be immodest for men is just unacceptable in today's culture. If men went around wearing speedos, form fitting leggings, or were allowed to go in public with no shirt on; I would consider those things immodest. We usually don't though haha (hopefully).

The main point is that it is hard for men to think of a woman in a respectful manner if she is not modest.

On another point. I have a question I am curious about. Do you consider men who wear sleeveless shirts/tank tops to be immodest? Obviously if there are garments underneath they shouldn't be shown, but what about youth. Young women are told to cover up their shoulders, what about men? Just curious at your opinions.

To the second thing I bolded: I see plenty of young men nowadays walking around in *very* tight fitting jeans, and others often go around without shirts on. There are just as m any men leaving "nothing to the imagination" as their are women, at least in the Summer.

To the first thing I bolded: What exactly do you mean by that? Do you mean immodestly dressed men don't "cause women to lust" the way immodestly dressed women do? Or that women don't encorage men to dress that way? I need only point you to Old Spice Guy to disprove that myth.

[Martain]

On another point. I have a question I am curious about. Do you consider men who wear sleeveless shirts/tank tops to be immodest? Obviously if there are garments underneath they shouldn't be shown, but what about youth. Young women are told to cover up their shoulders, what about men? Just curious at your opinions.

Why should women have a monopoly on what is modest? Why should it be different for men?

Does seeing a guy showing off his upper torso not tempt women to think lustful thoughts too? Why is the guy running topless if not to show off his body and attract attention? Isn't that immodest? Do you see fat men running shirtless?

Would it be appropriate for a woman to come up to a shirtless man and feel up his torso? If not, why is it appropriate visually?

Yet what of swimming and basketball?

Why should the standard be for women only?

Why should age play a factor in modesty?

I wish the Prophets would speak as clearly on the subject of male modesty as they do women's.

Part of the reason why I think modest is brought up to women more than men is as you said. Male immodesty isn't as culturally promoted and advertised.

Another reason is due to biological differences between men and women.

Women have more sensory receptors in their skin than men. Men are literally thicker skinned than women and less receptive to temperature changes.

Women also have more visual nerve endings for peripheral vision than men whose nerves are more concentrated in the center. We generally have better tunnel vision and women have better peripheral vision.

This is reflected in the senses. Where as women are more receptive to touch, men gravitate towards visual stimulus.

I tend to believe that you gals are simply better than us in regards to how immodesty affects you. I personally believe this simply isn't a general weakness you gals share. Respecting a male's body and not reacting to the visual stimulus in an inappropriate way doesn't seem to be the problem for you it is for men. I may indeed be wrong but I hope not.

I also do believe that women encourage men to dress immodestly the way men encourage women to dress. I highly suspect that the creator of the 'Old Spice Guy' was a man. It sounds like something from the head of a man rather than the head of a women to me. Now such thoughts may indeed be sexist but since they are in your favor, please don't be offended?

Makes me wonder though regarding the sin of immodesty.

Think about it...

If you go and put a bottle of beer in front of someone and he or she drinks... are you not responsible for having provided the temptation?

If a man or woman is livid at someone and you put a gun in their hand and they shoot the person dead... are you not responsible for your part in the sin?

Are the casino owners not responsible for providing the machines by which people gamble?

If a man or women dresses to attract unwholesome attention... are they not responsible as well?

One could counter that said person was going to do such act anyways. That is true of some people. Yet it isn't always the case.

Although the sinner isn't justified in sinning, is the tempter justified in tempting?

Yet obviously there are exceptions. There are people who will attract such attention regardless of what they wear. Their are virtuous men and women who will attract unwelcome attention no matter how modest they dress.

Is not part of the sinfulness of immodesty in how you're tempting someone else to sin?

When you dress modest, at least you are comfortable in knowing that you're neither contributing towards someone else sinning or sinning yourself.

Thoughts?

Edited August 2, 2011 by Martain

[mightynancy]

Do you consider men who wear sleeveless shirts/tank tops to be immodest? Obviously if there are garments underneath they shouldn't be shown, but what about youth. Young women are told to cover up their shoulders, what about men? Just curious at your opinions.

I don't think there's anything inherently immodest about showing one's shoulders, male or female.

tap..tap..tap is this thing on?

Let's talk about modesty without talking about clothes and sex.

[Martain]

Modesty:

1. Not excessively large, elaborate, or expensive

2. Unassuming or moderate in the estimation of one's abilities or achievements

3. Dressing or behaving so as to avoid impropriety or indecency, especially to avoid attracting sexual attention

4. Not revealing or emphasizing the figure

I read these definitions and I see it also listed as the following.

Modesty:

1. Greed/Generosity

2. Pride/Humility

3 & 4. Unchaste/Chaste

To me this would also explain why the latter two definitions are more emphasized. Out of the three sets of sins/virtues, the latter rank.

Also, when we talk about Greed/Generosity we usually use those words rather than modest. Likewise when we talk about Pride/Humility we use those words instead of modest as well. It seems that the third and fourth definition are different in that we use modest in explaining those definitions over the use of unchaste and chaste.

If we wanted to discuss definitions 1 & 2, would it not be better to separate them into a separate thread?

[toughdee]

What exactly do you mean by that? Do you mean immodestly dressed men don't "cause women to lust" the way immodestly dressed women do? Or that women don't encorage men to dress that way? I need only point you to Old Spice Guy to disprove that myth.

Haha, that made me laugh. I guess I am merely assuming from my own observations that women do not encourage immodest behavior in men as much. I agree with the skinny jeans, shirts off etc. etc. It just seems to me to be more for lack of a better word "suggestive" on women than men. Correct me if I am wrong as this IS coming from the mind of a guy haha.

[toughdee]

Why should women have a monopoly on what is modest? Why should it be different for men?

Does seeing a guy showing off his upper torso not tempt women to think lustful thoughts too? Why is the guy running topless if not to show off his body and attract attention? Isn't that immodest? Do you see fat men running shirtless?

Would it be appropriate for a woman to come up to a shirtless man and feel up his torso? If not, why is it appropriate visually?

Yet what of swimming and basketball?

Why should the standard be for women only?

Why should age play a factor in modesty?

I wish the Prophets would speak as clearly on the subject of male modesty as they do women's.

Part of the reason why I think modest is brought up to women more than men is as you said. Male immodesty isn't as culturally promoted and advertised.

Another reason is due to biological differences between men and women.

Women have more sensory receptors in their skin than men. Men are literally thicker skinned than women and less receptive to temperature changes.

Women also have more visual nerve endings for peripheral vision than men whose nerves are more concentrated in the center. We generally have better tunnel vision and women have better peripheral vision.

This is reflected in the senses. Where as women are more receptive to touch, men gravitate towards visual stimulus.

I tend to believe that you gals are simply better than us in regards to how immodesty affects you. I personally believe this simply isn't a general weakness you gals share. Respecting a male's body and not reacting to the visual stimulus in an inappropriate way doesn't seem to be the problem for you it is for men. I may indeed be wrong but I hope not.

I also do believe that women encourage men to dress immodestly the way men encourage women to dress. I highly suspect that the creator of the 'Old Spice Guy' was a man. It sounds like something from the head of a man rather than the head of a women to me. Now such thoughts may indeed be sexist but since they are in your favor, please don't be offended?

Makes me wonder though regarding the sin of immodesty.

Think about it...

If you go and put a bottle of beer in front of someone and he or she drinks... are you not responsible for having provided the temptation?

If a man or woman is livid at someone and you put a gun in their hand and they shoot the person dead... are you not responsible for your part in the sin?

Are the casino owners not responsible for providing the machines by which people gamble?

If a man or women dresses to attract unwholesome attention... are they not responsible as well?

One could counter that said person was going to do such act anyways. That is true of some people. Yet it isn't always the case.

Although the sinner isn't justified in sinning, is the tempter justified in tempting?

Yet obviously there are exceptions. There are people who will attract such attention regardless of what they wear. Their are virtuous men and women who will attract unwelcome attention no matter how modest they dress.

Is not part of the sinfulness of immodesty in how you're tempting someone else to sin?

When you dress modest, at least you are comfortable in knowing that you're neither contributing towards someone else sinning or sinning yourself.

Thoughts?

I agree, I wish there was a little more guidance. As for the tempter, I believe to a certain extent they will be held accountable. The choice still ultimately comes down to the person who commits the sin however.

[mightynancy]

It's a dictionary smackdown! This one is from Dictionary.com.

mod·es·ty

   [mod-uh-stee]

noun, plural -ties. 1. the quality of being modest; freedom from vanity, boastfulness, etc.

2. regard for decency of behavior, speech, dress, etc.

3. simplicity; moderation.

I'd just like to point out that how one dresses is just a part, and not the primary part, of the definition.

Is this one of those things like "virtue"? When I was YW president, and we had a lesson on "virtue", I pointed to the YW values posted on the wall. I told the girls that each of those things is a virtue. But when they hear a church leader talk about "virtue", what they really mean is sexual purity. It's a code.

To quote radio darling Rush Limbaugh, words mean things. When we appropriate words and shift their meanings to more-narrow definitions, we run the risk of misunderstandings and ignorance.

There's also the difference between standards and principles, but that's for another day.

[kayne]

while i didnt see your original post that you claim was too harsh i do agree with what you have posted now. though i think it applies to men as well.

immodest dress and flashy sexy dress does say something about the image your projecting. while a cruel example i do find funny irony when a girl is say raped but dressed in a tank top and short shorts considering the dress very much screams i want to do it with someone right now.

this idea goes further once you push the bounds past immodest dress. as ultimately it says im horny come get some. people then truely look at each other as objects. soon sex before marriage follows or adultrey(spelling?) and now with the dawn in the internet porn has become a rampant horrible problem. and porn ultimately makes you view all other humans as objects. you no longer have any respect for the person and instead as long as they please you its ok and to hell with the consquences.

but dressing modestly can be attractive. but it doesnt have that lust factor. it doesnt say come get me im horny. i cant recall where it says it but on more than one occassion The Lord fusses at the people that dress in costly and fancy apparel. but The Lord never does say dont look nice and He does say look nice and be well kept and clean. but He does quite often fuss at people and say dont dress fancy. dont wear all that crazy gold and silver. which is usually followed by stop sleeping around and partying and committing sin. so even the scriptures have said countless times watch what you wear.

i suppose ultimately that physical reminder is a good one. also im sure im not alone in this but i never truely really noticed it until i have my own endowments.

[Jenamarie]

immodest dress and flashy sexy dress does say something about the image your projecting. while a cruel example i do find funny irony when a girl is say raped but dressed in a tank top and short shorts considering the dress very much screams i want to do it with someone right now.

How so? Maybe the girl wearing the tank top and short shorts was just "saying" through her choice of apparel that "Wow, it's a hot day today." NOBODY EVER SAYS "Hey, I'd sure love to have non-consentual sexual contact today! Come and get it!"

[mightynancy]

while a cruel example i do find funny irony when a girl is say raped but dressed in a tank top and short shorts considering the dress very much screams i want to do it with someone right now...

this idea goes further once you push the bounds past immodest dress. as ultimately it says im horny come get some. people then truely look at each other as objects. soon sex before marriage follows or adultrey(spelling?) .

Wow. So, at what age does a tank top broadcast a desire for sexual contact? How about on a four year old? Seven? Ten? Fifteen? Eighteen?

Is this young lady's clothing saying anything other than, "It's summertime!"?

Also, how did you obtain this mind reading ability? I want me some of that.

[girlygirl]

Can I just put this out there that I went to a self defense class once and they told us that predators go for women wearing loose clothing and not tight fitted clothes because of the easier accessibility??? Just saying...

[Guest Anonymity]

I guess my issue with modesty is the fact that some women take it too far and don't want to make men "sin" by looking at them. Please. I know and see too many women that just don't take care of themselves. They gain weight, they wear sweats, no makeup, no perfume, no high heels, no cute dresses, etc. Please fix yourself up! You would look fantastic and its up to the man to control his thoughts. Geez, I want my wife to dress sexy ALL THE TIME if possible. haha Because I would do the exact same for her! (Of course I'm talking about an imaginary wife and the moment . . . haha).

[Jezebel2011]

I guess my issue with modesty is the fact that some women take it too far and don't want to make men "sin" by looking at them. Please. I know and see too many women that just don't take care of themselves. They gain weight, they wear sweats, no makeup, no perfume, no high heels, no cute dresses, etc. Please fix yourself up! You would look fantastic and its up to the man to control his thoughts. Geez, I want my wife to dress sexy ALL THE TIME if possible. haha Because I would do the exact same for her! (Of course I'm talking about an imaginary wife and the moment . . . haha).

I laughed out loud when I read this post.

How dare you!

Men in a relationship gain weight, wear sweats, don't bother to wash or to shave, wear old clothes with no regard for their wife.

Why should it only be the woman's responsibility to take care of themselves? Why do women have to wear 'cute' dresses.

I wear what I want to wear, clothes that I like, that are modest and flattering. I don't want to wear clothes that scream 'hey, come look at me'.

Women gain weight with child-bearing and sometimes they find it very hard to lose that weight - particularly when they have an unsupportive husband nagging them about gaining weight in the first place.

I, for one, cannot wear heels any more and haven't been able to for 10 years or so due to a medical problem.

I cannot and will not conform to a MAN's perception of 'sexy'

[Dravin]

Why should it only be the woman's responsibility to take care of themselves?

You may want to slow down and take a closer look at his post, namely:

Because I would do the exact same for her!

[Jezebel2011]

You may want to slow down and take a closer look at his post, namely:

Read the whole tone of the post and not just one sentence.

It is a common assumption amongst a lot of men. You only have to watch certain tv shows and the subject comes up time and time again.