Is Seeking Converts Bad?


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In another string a few posters mentioned that the Dalai Lama discourages Christians from converting to Buddhism. His counsel is to take any good teachings he and Buddhism may offer, and use them to be the best Christian (or whatever) person you can be. There seemed to be a lot of admiration for this posture. Indeed, I understand that Judaism has the same injunction.

BUT don't LDS (and Evangelicals, btw) seek converts? We want people to leave their religions (we may even dare to use the adjective 'false'), and join our truth. In a book I often recommend, How Wide the Divide: A Mormon and an Evangelical in Conversation, both the LDS writer and Evangelical one admitted that both sides would continue to seek converts from the other. We see much in common, but in the end, find each other deficient enough that we would help each other by seeking conversion.

Frankly, I think we're right. I do not condemn religions that do not seek converts, but neither do I find them compelling as universal true faiths. If we have what's right, we would want others to "taste and see that it is good."

Am I missing something?

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I saw a really funny stand up comic once who told some funny and non-offensive jokes about LDS, Catholicism and then ventured into the Jehovah's Witnesses. She said the Jehovah's Witnesses must be the LEAST selfish people ever, because even though they believed that only 144,000 people would get to Heaven, they kept trying to get new converts instead of keeping the competition for space as small as possible :P

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I think alot of that admiration comes from it being a bit usual to those that admire it. After seeing some of the nastier side of what some people will go through to prove their side right, having someone say don't come to us can be like a breath of fresh air.

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Without a thorough understanding of Buddhism I can't answer the question from a doctrinal point of view. But I can answer it from a possible Hollywood point of view. Here, in L.A., there are "stars" that have taken on the Free Tibet cause pretty forcefully (Richard Gere comes to mind) as to be a pet project. Even Sharon Stone opened her mouth and said that one of the earthquakes in China is "bad karma" for the Chinese government treatment of Tibet. So I would surmise that one reason why the Dali Lama feels this way is to not have people convert just because it's the latest Hollywood fad to do so. I sometimes work in Bevery Hills and have interacted with plenty of, what we term as "new age people." They all have one thing in common; not a real good grasp of what it is nor a real deep devotion to it. Only by name, and they like to throw it out there for all to be impressed.

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I guess convert-seeking is in the eyes of the beholder. I don't want someone yelling at me that I'm going to hell if I don't follow his religion. If I'm happy in my religion, I want to say so and be left alone. Continuous attempts are not going to convert me. But, if I am unhappy, if I am interested in learning about another way, then I am open to discussion - not badgering. I am also open to example, which is more Christlike - someone screaming about Jesus on the subway (something to be experienced, let me tell you) or someone who serves his neighbor and has a good home life?

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From my perspective I agree with you PC, but I realize I'm coming from a religion in which converting has significant (good) consequences and is something that is ultimately necessary to be able to obtain the best this and the next life has to offer. I imagine you see things the same way, there are benefits to being Christian, you need to become Christian to experience the best existence has to offer/avoid the worst it has to offer.

My understanding is that for Judaism such is not the case. From Judaism 101: Jewish Attitudes Toward Non-Jews

To be considered a good and righteous person in the eyes of G-d, a non-Jew need only follow the seven Noahic commandments, whereas a Jew has to follow all 613 commandments given in the Torah. If the potential convert is not going to follow those extra rules, it's better for him or her to stay a gentile, and since we as Jews are all responsible for each other, it's better for us too if that person stayed a gentile.

To be righteous one need not convert to Judaism (nor is the Jewish equivalent of heaven reserved for Jews [ Judaism 101: Olam Ha-Ba: The Afterlife ]), and actually doing so represents taking on a greater burden than you would otherwise be called to bear. So if someone is already following the seven Noahic commandments no need for them to actually convert and take on that greater responsibility.

The article I quoted (at the top) accepts Christians and Muslims as worshiping the same God as Jews and being a good Christian or Muslim would leave one following the Noahic commandments (or at least not put you at odds with it) so I can see why they aren't worried about us. Makes me wonder what their take is on those who they would categorize as believing in things contrary to those seven Noahic commandments (like say a modern Pagan being guilty of idolatry).

I don't know Buddhism well enough to comment on their particular perspective.

Edited by Dravin
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Guest gopecon

As a kid I used to wonder about other churches. I figured they must believe that they had the truth, otherwise how would they be able to attract others. If you have that truth, it seems incumbent on you to share it - albeit respectfully. I have a lot of respect for the commitment level of JW's and others who put in the time to spread the word as we (LDS) do with our full-time missionaries.

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In another string a few posters mentioned that the Dalai Lama discourages Christians from converting to Buddhism. His counsel is to take any good teachings he and Buddhism may offer, and use them to be the best Christian (or whatever) person you can be. There seemed to be a lot of admiration for this posture. Indeed, I understand that Judaism has the same injunction.

BUT don't LDS (and Evangelicals, btw) seek converts? We want people to leave their religions (we may even dare to use the adjective 'false'), and join our truth. In a book I often recommend, How Wide the Divide: A Mormon and an Evangelical in Conversation, both the LDS writer and Evangelical one admitted that both sides would continue to seek converts from the other. We see much in common, but in the end, find each other deficient enough that we would help each other by seeking conversion.

Frankly, I think we're right. I do not condemn religions that do not seek converts, but neither do I find them compelling as universal true faiths. If we have what's right, we would want others to "taste and see that it is good."

Am I missing something?

For LDS the reason for us laboring to bring souls unto Christ, has more to do with priesthood ordinances and covenants than righteous living alone. Even though persuading people to live righteously is an honorable objective, that righteousness alone does not result in Exaltation from an LDS perspective. The grace of God is made manifest in the blessings of gospel ordinances.

We seek to bring people before the Lord, that He may covenant with them and their posterity. These covenants are entered into through gospel ordinances performed by duly authorized priesthood holders, who we believe hold the priesthood of Jesus Christ. The ordinances required for salvation include baptism, confirmation, priesthood (for men), and the temple ordinances and sealings.

We are so motivated to preach the gospel to others mainly because we believe that this priesthood authority is only found in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Without receiving these ordinances and covenants, and being true to them, the good and honorable people of the earth can only be received into one of the other kingdoms of glory (See D&C 76:75).

Regards,

Vanhin

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From my perspective I agree with you PC, but I realize I'm coming from a religion in which converting has significant (good) consequences and is something that is ultimately necessary to be able to obtain the best this and the next life has to offer. I imagine you see things the same way, there are benefits to being Christian, you need to become Christian to experience the best existence has to offer/avoid the worst it has to offer.

My understanding is that for Judaism such is not the case. From Judaism 101: Jewish Attitudes Toward Non-Jews

To be righteous one need not convert to Judaism (nor is the Jewish equivalent of heaven reserved for Jews [ Judaism 101: Olam Ha-Ba: The Afterlife ]), and actually doing so represents taking on a greater burden than you would otherwise be called to bear. So if someone is already following the seven Noahic commandments no need for them to actually convert and take on that greater responsibility.

The article I quoted (at the top) accepts Christians and Muslims as worshiping the same God as Jews and being a good Christian or Muslim would leave one following the Noahic commandments (or at least not put you at odds with it) so I can see why they aren't worried about us. Makes me wonder what their take is on those who they would categorize as believing in things contrary to those seven Noahic commandments (like say a modern Pagan being guilty of idolatry).

I don't know Buddhism well enough to comment on their particular perspective.

That's interesting and aligns with LDS beliefs. We believe that if someone isn't ready to make covenants, it is better that they don't make them since they shouldn't be responsible for things they either don't understand or don't accept. LDS who are temple endowed are held to a higher standard because of the covenants they make. There is an interview process in order to be deemed not only worthy, but ready to accept those responsiblities.

And, LDS believe that one does not have to be Mormon to be saved in "heaven." D&C 76 describes those who will attain the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms and it seems to me that there will be people of all faiths in those Kingdoms.

So, it seems that at least the Jewish people believe that it is better one doesn't take on covenants they aren't willing/able to keep and that those who obey God's law (even if they didn't know it was God's law) can be saved.

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Guest Sachi001

In another string a few posters mentioned that the Dalia Lama discourages Christians from converting to Buddhism. His counsel is to take any good teachings he and Buddhism may offer, and use them to be the best Christian (or whatever) person you can be. There seemed to be a lot of admiration for this posture. Indeed, I understand that Judaism has the same injunction.

BUT don't LDS (and Evangelicals, btw) seek converts? We want people to leave their religions (we may even dare to use the adjective 'false'), and join our truth. In a book I often recommend, How Wide the Divide: A Mormon and an Evangelical in Conversation, both the LDS writer and Evangelical one admitted that both sides would continue to seek converts from the other. We see much in common, but in the end, find each other deficient enough that we would help each other by seeking conversion.

Frankly, I think we're right. I do not condemn religions that do not seek converts, but neither do I find them compelling as universal true faiths. If we have what's right, we would want others to "taste and see that it is good."

Am I missing something?

Well first the Dalia lama is not head of all Buddhists. Just the Tibetan sect. I asked my wife's uncle (Japanese Buddhist) this is not of their designs. They encourage if you ask, but won't actively proselytize for conversion, but nor will they discourage.

Basically I am somewhat in agreement. If the fruit is good from the tree then yes I support that church with active in trying to convert. However if it was such a church like the Aryan Nation kind or WBC. They should shut up and be dissolved.

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We are so motivated to preach the gospel to others mainly because we believe that this priesthood authority is only found in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Without receiving these ordinances and covenants, and being true to them, the good and honorable people of the earth can only be received into one of the other kingdoms of glory (See D&C 76:75).

Regards,

Vanhin

Sometimes we Evangelicals are over-shrill, and even obnoxious, because we are desperate to see people escape, not the Terrestial Kingdom, but hell. It's a poor excuse for bad behavior, though, because, in the end, it's the Holy Spirit that draws and convicts...we are but vessels in His service.

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Am I missing something?

The only thing you are missing is a better understanding of Buddhism.

I think the relief many feel about this attitude is largely because so many religions try to pressure people into conversions. The lack of pressure makes people feel more comfortable about proceeding at their own pace, accepting what they want to accept, rejecting what they don't, and just striving to be a better person- which is exactly what the Dalai Lama intended, I think. There is a major difference in the approach of many eastern religions when compared to Christianity. It's all about the "pace".

Now I don't know as much about Buddhism as I could, but I've studied it quite a bit. In our Christian religions, we often feel a "rush" to make sure we have chosen correctly and are in the right place. We only have this life to "prepare to meet God", and many feel that if we follow incorrect practices we will be "damned". So there is a major pressure to align ourselves with the correct denomination and extend the Truth we have found to others. We want to make sure as many people as possible are saved and if our demoniation is the right one we need to convert others in order for them to be saved (or exhalted, or have the fullness of the Truth, etc).

In eastern religions that pressure is nowhere near as strong because there is this extension of our time and ability to align ourselves with the Truth. Most believe in reincarnation, and even those that don't believe that our existence extends far beyond our mortality. There is no rush. There is no need to "hurry" to the "correct" denomination. As long as we are all doing the best we can with the knowledge we have, we are progressing and will eventually become "one". So, a Buddhist won't necessarily want to "convert" you to Buddhism. They will want to share whatever little portions or segments of Truth they can with you to help you make better decisions on your current path.

Personally, I try to build on that attitude when talking to non-LDS, because I believe everyone comes to a better understanding of the Truth when allowed to do so at their own pace, unpressured. I don't think we should be pushing people to convert, but should instead only be sharing our Truth with others and leaving their acceptance totally up to them. Most of the converts that missionaries bring into the church are people who were already "prepared", ready to hear the messages and just needing someone to share them. Those who are not prepared don't convert, and that's okay! As long as they are living as best they know how with the amount of Truth they have been given and accepted.

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That's interesting and aligns with LDS beliefs. We believe that if someone isn't ready to make covenants, it is better that they don't make them since they shouldn't be responsible for things they either don't understand or don't accept. LDS who are temple endowed are held to a higher standard because of the covenants they make. There is an interview process in order to be deemed not only worthy, but ready to accept those responsiblities.

And, LDS believe that one does not have to be Mormon to be saved in "heaven." D&C 76 describes those who will attain the Telestial and Terrestrial Kingdoms and it seems to me that there will be people of all faiths in those Kingdoms.

So, it seems that at least the Jewish people believe that it is better one doesn't take on covenants they aren't willing/able to keep and that those who obey God's law (even if they didn't know it was God's law) can be saved.

The one difference would be they don't have the exalted/saved divide that LDS theology does. So the covenant, while it has blessings attached, isn't quite like the requirement for all to make and keep covenants to be exalted you find in LDS theology. In a sense it's a more like mainstream Christian theology of believing and following Christ but not requiring ordinances, except instead of accepting and following Christ it's following the seven Noahic commandments.

I'm sure the analogy has cracks at its edges.

Edited by Dravin
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In another string a few posters mentioned that the Dalai Lama discourages Christians from converting to Buddhism. His counsel is to take any good teachings he and Buddhism may offer, and use them to be the best Christian (or whatever) person you can be. There seemed to be a lot of admiration for this posture. Indeed, I understand that Judaism has the same injunction.

BUT don't LDS (and Evangelicals, btw) seek converts? We want people to leave their religions (we may even dare to use the adjective 'false'), and join our truth. In a book I often recommend, How Wide the Divide: A Mormon and an Evangelical in Conversation, both the LDS writer and Evangelical one admitted that both sides would continue to seek converts from the other. We see much in common, but in the end, find each other deficient enough that we would help each other by seeking conversion.

Frankly, I think we're right. I do not condemn religions that do not seek converts, but neither do I find them compelling as universal true faiths. If we have what's right, we would want others to "taste and see that it is good."

Am I missing something?

I believe that you are "missing something," PC~

Because I so often question the intent of people in "seeking" others to bring into their faith/belief system/paradigm/etc. There are several things I struggle with in this....So often I see other "christian" religions expend all their time tearing other religions down in their belief systems. I really question where the teachings of Christ are in this. I also wonder/struggle with the characteristic of having to change others to validate what one believes in~this seems pretty compulsive to me. I see so much competitiveness in the race to convert others to one's religion, even among the people of my own religion. Over all, in this race there is so little love.

I have a lot of respect for the Dali Lama in his stance~ I happen to be quite interested in Buddhism. His perspective rings true to me in remaining where I am and making the best of it or in becoming the truths the best I can in my belief system.

I imagine different characteristics coming though in a true follower of the Savior. I am so grateful for the LDS teaching of agency.... And I think of the 121st section of the Doctrine and Covenants as I think about this; "No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned; By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile-"

I don't believe in forcing my beliefs on anyone else.....Quietly exemplifying my beliefs, inviting, showing/telling when asked, loving, yes. The greatest missionary experience I have ever had came way before my mission with a friend I was trying to help and whom I loved dearly. The Spirit totally took over in my willingness to follow Him and listen to and talk to my dear friend. I wasn't looking to "convert" him so much as to bear witness to him of the truth out of love and concern for his well-being. Years later he did convert, and I wasn't directly involved in his life then. I was happy for him and it really didn't matter what person got credit in the process.

Forgive me, I don't want to boast. I'm just saying, I didn't see myself as a "missionary" so much as a friend to this person.

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Dove, I am still not sure what it is you believe I am missing. Also, while I understand your aversion to being pushy, you seem a bit to jaundiced in your understanding of why people share their faith with others. If, for example, I believe in a literal hell, and that faith in Christ is the only pathway to the Father, is my faith-sharing done to ease my uncertain Spirit, or to give that soul a chance to make peace with Heavenly Father?

And again, to repeat what I said earlier--it's the Holy Spirit that convicts and converts. We are but vessels.

Then again, being the strong silent witness probably would have saved the disciples their lives. Yet, they chose death instead. Sometimes gospel-sharing is an offense.

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I don't believe seeking converts is bad because Christ commanded such to happen shortly before his ascention into heaven.

Christ commanded the gospel to be spread to all the world.

Christ will never command us to do evil.

Others may not agree with it, and may not even like the fact that they cannot stop it from happening.

Nevertheless it is a commandment from Christ himself. I'd rather listen to him IMHO.

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Dove, I am still not sure what it is you believe I am missing. Also, while I understand your aversion to being pushy, you seem a bit to jaundiced in your understanding of why people share their faith with others. If, for example, I believe in a literal hell, and that faith in Christ is the only pathway to the Father, is my faith-sharing done to ease my uncertain Spirit, or to give that soul a chance to make peace with Heavenly Father?

And again, to repeat what I said earlier--it's the Holy Spirit that convicts and converts. We are but vessels.

Then again, being the strong silent witness probably would have saved the disciples their lives. Yet, they chose death instead. Sometimes gospel-sharing is an offense.

PC;

I feel you are missing the point I'm trying to make that so many people preach their belief systems not out of the "pure love of Christ,'' or without guile; but for their own carnal reasons. But; maybe you got that and this is why you called me "jaundice," which sorry, I don't understand your meaning or implication in calling me that.

Also, it is your choice to believe in a literal hell~To me, that's living life in fear of punishment..... Maybe I really don't want someone presuming to take up my space to inflict on me something that is so fear based......I have often said throughout my life that if one has to use fear to get me to heaven they may as well send me to hell; because, to me that is what fear is.....

I haven't noticed in this day and age in the United States anyone being killed for "gospel sharing." I'm only grateful that if I disagree with the tactics in sharing the gospel; I'm not killed either, like in the crusades~

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PC;

I feel you are missing the point I'm trying to make that so many people preach their belief systems not out of the "pure love of Christ,'' or without guile; but for their own carnal reasons. But; maybe you got that and this is why you called me "jaundice," which sorry, I don't understand your meaning or implication in calling me that.

I suppose our disagreement is that I see most gospel-sharers as doing their witnessing out of obedience, and love. Sometimes they may try too hard, get too pushy, or being trying to please their fellow believers, rather than God. But, I perceive that that is not the majority. If I get you right, you suggest that most do their witnessing without Christ's pure love. I find that view jaundiced, or cynical. I am assessing your viewpoint, not your personality.

Also, it is your choice to believe in a literal hell~To me, that's living life in fear of punishment..... Maybe I really don't want someone presuming to take up my space to inflict on me something that is so fear based......I have often said throughout my life that if one has to use fear to get me to heaven they may as well send me to hell; because, to me that is what fear is.....

The doctrine of hell is another string...my only point is that if I do believe it, and I try to share my faith to help people avoid it, such could be a sincere effort done in Christ's love. God does both punishment and reward. That some are more motivated by fear of punishment is not so wrong. It may seem lesser, but if it leads the soul to a love-filled relationship with Heavenly Father, and it's sincere, then praise God.
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Thank you for the clarification, PC.....

Yes, far more often have I witnessed a lack of love amongst christians (including the members of my own church) then I have the pure love of Christ. I'm struggling right now in the ward I've just moved into with some really negative experiences there. But, this is nothing new with the LDS and non-LDS alike. If this makes me jaundiced, i.e., cynical, then so be it. By the way, I asked my husband about what "jaundiced" could mean and he explained it as "lock-jawed" or "set in my ways," which may fit with what you are saying/implying~

As I said in my last post; I feel that "proselytizing," if not done out of truly and altruistically loving the object of this, is pretty pointless. I know that many ancient christians died in the cause of Christ; however, in our country today that is not the case.

I think of the saying that the Lord "stands at the door and knocks; but, I must let Him in." I agree with that. In the end, it is up to me, my accountability and responsibility to open that door and let Him in. While I appreciate being given the knowledge of the gospel, in the end it's up to me to live true to that. No one else can or should force that on me. I say this from a perspective of seeing so many who do compete/judge/degrade others if they don't believe in the same manner they do. Something I abhor...

I also think of the parable of the beam and the mote. The teaching goes remove the beam out of your eye before trying to remove your brother's mote. I agree with this. I interpret it as always be working on myself rather than correcting and finding fault with others. If others see the righteous works I'm doing as something positive and something they want to do, then glory to God. If not, that's between them and their Creator.

P.S. I appreciate the gentle way you responded to my comments, and I hope I wasn't angry/contentious in mine. Sorry if this was so.....

Dove

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P.S. I appreciate the gentle way you responded to my comments, and I hope I wasn't angry/contentious in mine. Sorry if this was so.....

Dove

All is well. Also, LDS may have a particularly difficult time seeing the altruism in evangelical witnessing, in particular, because you tend to see the most aggressive, confrontational elements from our churches. So, while your view may seem cynical to me, it may well be reality as well. I've seen some of the FAIRLDS video of our "evangelists" at your conferences and pageants, and they are not our best or brightest. :cool:

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I love this question...and I would like to add -- in this drive for converts, do we sometimes put the needs of individuals behind the needs of the organization seeking the converts?

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Sometimes they may try too hard, get too pushy, or being trying to please their fellow believers, rather than God. But, I perceive that that is not the majority.

I feel the same, in that I like to believe that the majority of those seeking converts are very sincere and only want to share the awesomeness of the Gospel as they understand it.

Mind you, that's my optimistic nature. ;)

My sister used to be married to a guy who I suppose could be called a preacher of sorts although the church setting they were in was very informal and I think the members may have been taking turns in the role of preacher but it was a while ago so I may be remembering wrong...

...anyway, they came to town once to visit and were staying at our mom's place. My sister and her husband basically spent the bulk of the visit going on and on about how Catholics (like mom) and Mormons (like me) were going to go to hell yadda yadda yadda. And the thing is, in the past I've had friends and family who were Evangelical/Protestant and always I felt comfortable around them, even when they were trying to witness to me, because I felt that they were doing so out of love and a desire to do as Christ commanded. With my sister and her husband it was very different... It felt almost like they were seeking validation through convincing others rather than any altruistic motive.

So while I resented the rudeness and approach taken by my sister and her husband, it didn't sour me to Protestants overall because I'd had enough experiences with some very great and sincere people to know better.

Epilogue: My sister has mellowed out considerably in the last couple years, and isn't married to that same guy anymore.

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