How many of you...

[pam]

Ed, you need to make your point without directly attacking another poster. We don't yet know you, but I know Sister Dahlia.

I know who Ed Noonan is. His last campaign attempt netted him less than 2% of the votes. I would hate to think that he would talk down to his hopeful constituents as he has to a random member of this site who we all happen to love.

[ednoonan7]

Your post starts with an untruth! And you should know who is the "FATHER OF ALL LIES.'

You state: "Concerning the illegal alien in the WH was proven false. Obama provided his ORIGINAL BC. That is now accepted except for a few who still cannot accept the truth."

How can you say this when both of his bogus birth certificates have been photoshopped. As a long time Genealogist I know what 1961 Birth Certifications should look like, and neither Soetoro's short form or long form have been proven nor even verified by the State of Hawaii to be valid. We cannot get into a court "to prove anything" one way or the other. LTC Lakin was given a kangaroo court by the military and refused any Constitutional rights regarding to discovery. Soetoro has a forged Selective Service card, and 39 forged/stolen Social Security numbers. So don't tell me that anything has been proven. If you side with Soetoro, you side with evil. PERIOD!

[skippy740]

Ed, I deleted your post. That kind of talk will NOT be tolerated here.

That said, you are missing the point. If you have "Barry Soretoro" removed from office, then the reaction of the people will be to re-elect another one JUST like him.

We need the people to WANT another President elected in 2012.

And people who support the current President are NOT evil.

Oh, and by the way, I'm in California, volunteered with a Republican Central Committee and never heard of you until now.

[mirkwood]

, the moon has not turned blood red, and the sun has not turned black.

Actuallly that one has been fulfilled.

The vision of Joel has been fulfilled wherein he declared:

“And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

“And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

“And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

“The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come.

Pres. Hinckley, General Conference October 2001

Living in the Fulness of Times

Edited August 3, 2011 by mirkwood

[Guest Sachi001]

Yes the moon has turned to blood and the sun had blacked out many times. I should know I live by a volcano.It's happened about 30 to 40 times a year here on different days depending on the VOG. However it is only temporary and I determine JS prophecy to interpret long long periods.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQw3SAiMt11Smvvolhx2owd6TQGv8RpCST2_PeqmMeuRAs7Th3MiQ

Welcome to paradise on a Kona wind vog day. Say Aloha to to Mr. Sun in the afternoon. Believe it or not there is a beautiful ocean in there somewhere.

[FunkyTown]

So the whole Barry Soretoro thing took me a minute and a half to debunk on Snopes.(Feel free to go look it up)

I'm going to guess this isn't the real Ed Noonan who got banned here. I haven't actually heard Ed Noonan speak, so I don't know, but I think it's worth giving him the benefit of the doubt.

It's sad that the people who are looking for a wake-up call for the average citizen are being saddled with the same people who spout conspiracy theories.

[Blackmarch]

there are power hungry people, sometimes part of organizations that meddle in everything.

[rubondfan2]

...The secret combinations are not a threat to any saints spiritual welfare unless you let them. They are everywhere, and you cannot avoid the corruption. It's how you deal with such is what will define you in judgment before God...

This is a very frightening statement, Sachi. Coupled with some of the other statements in your post, I am concerned that your analysis of things mirrors that of many other members of the church who are essentially tucked away in their living rooms reading their scriptures, saying their prayers and holding their Family Home Evenings just accepting that the world is falling down around them and there's nothing they can do to stop it. Worse yet, they believe that by simply being obedient within their own families they will somehow build some magical force field of protection around them from the secret combinations and abominations being promulgated throughout our society today.

Yes, "if we are prepared, we shall not fear" is valid counsel. So also is the counsel by then Elder Ezra Taft Benson:

“There are people today all over the world who in their own courageous and sometimes quiet ways are working for freedom. In many cases we will never know until the next life all they sacrificed for liberty. These patriots are receiving heaven's applause for the role they are playing, and in the long run that applause will be louder and longer than any they could receive in this world.

Which leads me to the second blind spot of those who hesitate to get into the fight. And that is their failure to realize that we will win in the long run, and for keeps, and that they pass up great blessings by not getting into the battle now when the odds are against us and the rewards are greatest.

The only questions, before the final victory, are, first, ‘What stand will each of us take in this struggle?’ and second, ‘How much tragedy can be avoided by doing something now?’

Time is on the side of truth—and truth is eternal. Those who are fighting against freedom may feel confident now, but they are shortsighted.

This is still God's world. The forces of evil, working through some mortals, have made a mess of a good part of it. But it is still God's world. In due time, when each of us has had a chance to prove ourselves-including whether or not we are going to stand up for freedom—God will interject himself, and the final and eternal victory shall be for free agency. And then shall those complacent people on the sidelines, and those who took the wrong but temporarily popular course, lament their decisions. To the patriots I say this: Take that long eternal look. Stand up for freedom, no matter what the cost. Stand up and be counted. It can help to save your soul-and maybe your country.” (Ezra Taft Benson, An Enemy Hath Done This, p. 62.)

Huddling under the seemingly protective blanket of personal prayer and righteousness is not enough. We must pick a side, join the battle and fight to the end. For me and my house, we have joined the battle and will fight until we can fight no more.

Edited August 3, 2011 by rubondfan2
Corrected reference to "President" Benson to read "Elder Ezra Taft" Benson.

[bytor2112]

I think all of the gnomes are some how connected with Barry Soretoro AND the Bilderbergs. Likely the pseudo covert arm of Skull and Bones operated by the Bush family while John Kerry is really pulling the strings.

[HEthePrimate]

If by "secret combinations" we mean people plotting and doing things together in secret for power and gain, then we have secret combinations practically coming out of our ears. However, I do not think they comprise a monolithic entity that is ruling the world. Different combinations have different interests, and often work against each other. IMO.

[Guest Sachi001]

This is a very frightening statement, Sachi. Coupled with some of the other statements in your post, I am concerned that your analysis of things mirrors that of many other members of the church who are essentially tucked away in their living rooms reading their scriptures, saying their prayers and holding their Family Home Evenings just accepting that the world is falling down around them and there's nothing they can do to stop it. Worse yet, they believe that by simply being obedient within their own families they will somehow build some magical force field of protection around them from the secret combinations and abominations being promulgated throughout our society today.

Yes, "if we are prepared, we shall not fear" is valid counsel. So also is the counsel by then Elder Ezra Taft Benson:

Huddling under the seemingly protective blanket of personal prayer and righteousness is not enough. We must pick a side, join the battle and fight to the end. For me and my house, we have joined the battle and will fight until we can fight no more.

I believe Jesus Christs and his actions on the atonement back me up and the Christian martyrs of Rome.

Matt 22:21

21They say unto him, Caesar’s. Then saith he unto them, aRender therefore unto bCæsar the things which are Cæsar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s.

D&C 29:32

32aFirst bspiritual, secondly temporal, which is the beginning of my work; and again, first temporal, and secondly spiritual, which is the last of my work—

If you are spiritually sound then no man or combinations can own you.

Alma is an example of this.

Alma 14; 17 - 29

17And it came to pass that Alma and Amulek answered him anothing; and he smote them again, and delivered them to the officers to be bcast into prison.

18And when they had been cast into prison three days, there came many alawyers, and judges, and priests, and teachers, who were of the profession of Nehor; and they came in unto the prison to see them, and they questioned them about many words; but they answered them nothing.

19And it came to pass that the judge stood before them, and said: Why do ye not answer the words of this people? Know ye not that I have apower to deliver you up unto the flames? And he bcommanded them to speak; but they answered nothing.

20And it came to pass that they departed and went their ways, but came again on the morrow; and the judge also smote them again on their cheeks. And many came forth also, and smote them, saying: Will ye stand again and judge this people, and condemn our law? If ye have such great power why do ye not adeliver yourselves?

21And many such things did they say unto them, gnashing their teeth upon them, and spitting upon them, and saying: How shall we look when we are damned?

22And many such things, yea, all manner of such things did they say unto them; and thus they did amock them for many days. And they did withhold food from them that they might hunger, and water that they might thirst; and they also did take from them their clothes that they were naked; and thus they were bbound with strong cords, and confined in cprison.

23And it came to pass after they had thus suffered for many days, (and it was on the twelfth day, in the tenth month, in the tenth year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi) that the chief judge over the land of aAmmonihah and many of their teachers and their lawyers went in unto the prison where Alma and Amulek were bound with cords.

24And the chief judge stood before them, and smote them again, and said unto them: If ye have the apower of God deliver yourselves from these bands, and then we will believe that the Lord will destroy this people according to your words.

25And it came to pass that they all went forth and smote them, saying the same words, even until the last; and when the last had spoken unto them the apower of God was upon Alma and Amulek, and they rose and stood upon their feet.

26And Alma cried, saying: How long shall we suffer these great aafflictions, O Lord? O Lord, bgive us strength according to our faith which is in Christ, even unto cdeliverance. And they broke the cords with which they were bound; and when the people saw this, they began to flee, for the fear of destruction had come upon them.

27And it came to pass that so great was their fear that they fell to the earth, and did not obtain the outer door of the aprison; and the earth shook mightily, and the walls of the prison were rent in twain, so that they fell to the earth; and the chief judge, and the lawyers, and priests, and teachers, who smote upon Alma and Amulek, were slain by the fall thereof.

28And Alma and Amulek came forth out of the prison, and they were not hurt; for the Lord had granted unto them apower, according to their faith which was in Christ. And they straightway came forth out of the prison; and they were bloosed from their cbands; and the prison had fallen to the earth, and every soul within the walls thereof, save it were Alma and Amulek, was slain; and they straightway came forth into the city.

29Now the people having heard a great noise came running together by multitudes to know the cause of it; and when they saw Alma and Amulek coming forth out of the prison, and the walls thereof had fallen to the earth, they were struck with great fear, and fled from the presence of Alma and Amulek even as a goat fleeth with her young from two lions; and thus they did flee from the presence of Alma and Amulek.

Fact is it is foretold in Revelations that many will fall away from the church, and follow the Anti-Christ period. You will not, nor any other Christians forestall what is to come. Unless you don't accept the book of Revelations. Only the Savior can end such. You can only be spiritually prepared for your's, and your families personal Armageddon. Because that can happen the very next day in a car accident, so you best be prepared in the latter days. I do not fear secret combinations. If you follow HF like in Lehi's dream and hold on to the iron Rod no evil has power over your soul. You are free and will be exalted. You let fear of mortal death have power over your soul. That is why Christ was afraid at first, but not fearful of the coming sacrifice after prayer in the garden. He did not let fear overcome his crucification by the evil in the world.

Edited August 4, 2011 by Sachi001

[Guest Sachi001]

Also Read:

Alma 24:20-25

20And it came to pass that their brethren, the Lamanites, made preparations for war, and came up to the land of Nephi for the purpose of destroying the king, and to place aanother in his stead, and also of destroying the people of Anti-Nephi-Lehi out of the land.

21Now when the people saw that they were coming against them they went out to meet them, and aprostrated themselves before them to the earth, and began to call on the name of the Lord; and thus they were in this attitude when the Lamanites began to fall upon them, and began to slay them with the sword.

22And thus without meeting any resistance, they did slay a athousand and five of them; and we know that they are blessed, for they have gone to dwell with their God.

23Now when the Lamanites saw that their brethren would not flee from the sword, neither would they turn aside to the right hand or to the left, but that they would lie down and aperish, and bpraised God even in the very act of perishing under the sword—

24Now when the Lamanites saw this they did aforbear from slaying them; and there were many whose hearts had bswollen in them for those of their brethren who had fallen under the sword, for they repented of the things which they had done.

25And it came to pass that they threw down their weapons of war, and they would not take them again, for they were stung for the murders which they had committed; and they came down even as their brethren, relying upon the mercies of those whose arms were lifted to slay them.

26And it came to pass that the people of God were joined that day by more than the number who had been slain; and those who had been slain were righteous people, therefore we have no reason to doubt but what they were asaved.

27And there was not a wicked man slain among them; but there were more than a thousand brought to the knowledge of the truth; thus we see that the Lord worketh in many aways to the salvation of his people.

28Now the greatest number of those of the Lamanites who slew so many of their brethren were Amalekites and Amulonites, the greatest number of whom were after the aorder of the bNehors.

29Now, among those who joined the people of the Lord, there were anone who were Amalekites or Amulonites, or who were of the order of Nehor, but they were actual descendants of Laman and Lemuel.

30And thus we can plainly discern, that after a people have been once aenlightened by the bSpirit of God, and have had great cknowledge of things pertaining to righteousness, and then have dfallen away into sin and transgression, they become more ehardened, and thus their state becomes fworse than though they had never known these things.

[rubondfan2]

If you are spiritually sound then no man or combinations can own you.

Alma is an example of this.

Alma 14; 17 - 29

Also Read:

Alma 24:20-25

... the people of Anti-Nephi-Lehi out of the land. ...

It's the bolded and italicized statement that I take issue with, not the scriptures you quote. Though the scriptures that you do quote are frankly irrelevant in this discussion of secret combinations. The experience of Alma and Amulek you refer to, if anything at all, actually illustrates my point. Alma and Amulek were not huddling in their homes with their families working on their individual personal righteousness and throwing their hands up in frustration and resignation over the combinations present in their day. No, they were out fighting... standing up for what they believed, putting themselves out there... in harms way... to further the cause of truth. They hadn't given up on trying to make a difference... they were doing something about the situation they observed and which the Lord was directing them to tackle.

As to your reference to the people of Anti-Nephi-Lehi, this has nothing to do with secret combinations whatsoever. The people of Anti-Nephi-Lehi were recovering "murder-aholics" and had buried their weapons of war following their conversion and entered into a solemn oath and covenant never to take them up again for fear they would return to their once bloodthirsty and murderous ways. This is a great story about how to truly turn away from sin and do it no more, even in the face of extreme persecution to the point of facing death. But it in no way teaches us that we should just lay prostrate on the ground clinging to our own personal worthiness simply ignoring secret combinations all around us destroying our freedoms and our way of life.

Your comments remind me of many of the folks on the "Another Voice of Warning" (AVOW) forum; who sit around talking about building up their food storage, praying, reading their scriptures and huddling together in their families watching the signs of the second coming from the sidelines like it's some kind of sporting event awaiting the "great day of judgement" that is going to come sometime in the next 30 days... or maybe 30 days after that... or maybe 30 days after that... or... well... sometime the Lord is coming and I'm-just-going-to-protect-myself-and-my-family-and-pray-real-hard-and-everything-will-work-out-just-fine-for-me mentality.

Elder Benson's point is that we are in a battle... one that we know who ultimately wins... and it is our responsibility to stand up and fight against the combinations; not just sit on the sidelines and say "oh well, there's nothing I can do to stop this... the combinations are all around me and I can't do anything to help my fellow man... or my country."

Maybe Benson is too controversial for some to wrap their heads around. How about we try Moroni this time? In Ether chapter 8, Moroni speaks in great detail about the secret combinations which brought about the destruction of an entire people, save one person. I point out a few key verses:

... 20And now I, Moroni, do not write the manner of their oaths and combinations, for it hath been made known unto me that they are had among all people, and they are had among the Lamanites.

21And they have caused the destruction of this people of whom I am now speaking, and also the destruction of the people of Nephi.

22And whatsoever nation shall uphold such secret combinations, to get power and gain, until they shall spread over the nation, behold, they shall be destroyed; for the Lord will not suffer that the blood of his saints, which shall be shed by them, shall always cry unto him from the ground for vengeance upon them and yet he avenge them not.

23Wherefore, O ye Gentiles, it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you, which are built up to get power and gain—and the work, yea, even the work of destruction come upon you, yea, even the sword of the justice of the Eternal God shall fall upon you, to your overthrow and destruction if ye shall suffer these things to be.

24Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you; or wo be unto it, because of the blood of them who have been slain; for they cry from the dust for vengeance upon it, and also upon those who built it up.

25For it cometh to pass that whoso buildeth it up seeketh to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people, for it is built up by the devil, who is the father of all lies; even that same liar who beguiled our first parents, yea, even that same liar who hath caused man to commit murder from the beginning; who hath hardened the hearts of men that they have murdered the prophets, and stoned them, and cast them out from the beginning.

26Wherefore, I, Moroni, am commanded to write these things that evil may be done away, and that the time may come that Satan may have no power upon the hearts of the children of men, but that they may be persuaded to do good continually, that they may come unto the fountain of all righteousness and be saved.

How is it that you propose to keep our nation from upholding secret combinations? Should we all take the stance that you suggest and just try to be as spiritual as we can be and just let the combinations run their course? After all, we can't possibly do anything to stop them, right? Poppycock.

It is our responsibility to watch for the combinations; and when we see them we cannot allow them to "get above" us. We must take an active role in doing something to fight Satan and his armies with their combinations and their plans to enslave and destroy the agency of man. Yes, be thankful you live in America and not in a Chinese prison, as you stated earlier. But what you and others do to stand up for freedom... to join the fight and put yourself out there even at the risk of your and your family's lives, may just be enough to keep this nation from becoming just like the Chinese example to which you referred.

I'm not talking about just saving your own soul, Sachi. You've built a great case for ensuring that your own personal salvation is taken care of; and that's wonderful, and I agree with you. What I am referring to is your and my and other Gentiles' responsibilities to stand with others in the defense of freedom from the secret combinations that are, in fact all around us. We can do something about them. We can make a difference; but not without bold and unmistakeable action. This is the point that Elder Benson and Moroni are trying to make to us.

[talisyn]

I didn't think about secret combinations until the 2000 presidential elections *^.^*

[Guest Sachi001]

It's the bolded and italicized statement that I take issue with, not the scriptures you quote. Though the scriptures that you do quote are frankly irrelevant in this discussion of secret combinations. The experience of Alma and Amulek you refer to, if anything at all, actually illustrates my point. Alma and Amulek were not huddling in their homes with their families working on their individual personal righteousness and throwing their hands up in frustration and resignation over the combinations present in their day. No, they were out fighting... standing up for what they believed, putting themselves out there... in harms way... to further the cause of truth. They hadn't given up on trying to make a difference... they were doing something about the situation they observed and which the Lord was directing them to tackle.

[/quote

Hmmm... I wonder where you think I get "huddled at homes". I did not say not to preach the gospel. I was inferring that no matter how hard you try as foretold in revelations. You will not change the evil occurring in the world. Not give up as your implying.

[bAs to your reference to the people of Anti-Nephi-Lehi, this has nothing to do with secret combinations whatsoever. The people of Anti-Nephi-Lehi were recovering "murder-aholics" and had buried their weapons of war following their conversion and entered into a solemn oath and covenant never to take them up again for fear they would return to their once bloodthirsty and murderous ways. This is a great story about how to truly turn away from sin and do it no more, even in the face of extreme persecution to the point of facing death. But it in no way teaches us that we should just lay prostrate on the ground clinging to our own personal worthiness simply ignoring secret combinations all around us destroying our freedoms and our way of life.Your comments remind me of many of the folks on the "Another Voice of Warning" (AVOW) forum; who sit around talking about building up their food storage, praying, reading their scriptures and huddling together in their families watching the signs of the second coming from the sidelines like it's some kind of sporting event awaiting the "great day of judgment" that is going to come sometime in the next 30 days... or maybe 30 days after that... or maybe 30 days after that... or... well... sometime the Lord is coming and I'm-just-going-to-protect-myself-and-my-family-and-pray-real-hard-and-everything-will-work-out-just-fine-for-me mentality.

Has everything to do with Secret Combinations, and about you preparing yourself spiritually to not accept the ways of the Laminites. The enemy is a secret combination.

Alma 23: 6- 7

6And as sure as the Lord liveth, so sure as many as believed, or as many as were brought to the knowledge of the truth, through the preaching of Ammon and his brethren, according to the spirit of revelation and of prophecy, and the power of God working amiracles in them—yea, I say unto you, as the Lord liveth, as many of the Lamanites as believed in their preaching, and were bconverted unto the Lord, cnever did fall away.

7For they became a righteous people; they did lay down the weapons of their rebellion, that they did not fight against God any more, neither against any of their brethren.

They laid down their arms not just because of thier carnal sin but of warring with secret combinations that conspire to wage war. Secret Combinations ater just not in the same society trying to undermine they are with in all Socieites and had a history of undermining their Lamanite societies as well. Historically proven in Rome, Greece, Babylon etc...

Your too one dimensional in reading into scripture.

Alma 24:14-18

14And the great God has had mercy on us, and made these things known unto us that we might not perish; yea, and he has made these things known unto us beforehand, because he loveth our asouls as well as he loveth our children; therefore, in his mercy he doth visit us by his angels, that the bplan of salvation might be made known unto us as well as unto future generations.

15Oh, how merciful is our God! And now behold, since it has been as much as we could do to get our stains taken away from us, and our swords are made bright, let us ahide them away that they may be kept bright, as a testimony to our God at the last day, or at the day that we shall be brought to stand before him to be judged, that we have not stained our swords in the blood of our brethren since he imparted his word unto us and has made us bclean thereby.

16And now, my brethren, if our brethren seek to destroy us, behold, we will hide away our swords, yea, even we will bury them deep in the earth, that they may be kept bright, as a testimony that we have never used them, at the last day; and if our brethren destroy us, behold, we shall ago to our God and shall be saved.

17And now it came to pass that when the king had made an end of these sayings, and all the people were assembled together, they took their swords, and all the weapons which were used for the shedding of man’s blood, and they did abury them up deep in the earth.

18And this they did, it being in their view a testimony to God, and also to men, that they anever would use weapons again for the shedding of man’s blood; and this they did, vouching and bcovenanting with God, that rather than shed the blood of their brethren they would cgive up their own lives; and rather than take away from a brother they would give unto him; and rather than spend their days in idleness they would labor abundantly with their hands.

They buried their swords in refusal to participate in the ways of men. They became spiritual first and temporal second first.

Your method it seems to me is you want to destroy secret combinations. To rid the world of men even though through pretentious act of proselytizing. In reality just destroying such and not allowing your spiritual brethren to not learn from their mistakes. it's about them spiritually learning. That is why Christ did not rise up and lead a fight against government rule. Those who live by the sword die by the sword. Your version of fighting is temporal (political) and not spiritual. Each Saint has a duty to preach but that is all. Change cannot be forced such as the history of the Catholic Church vis warrior popes such as Leo and men like Charlemagne. the change has to come from within each and every spirit brother and sister out there.

I say you cannot win is because if you paid attention in the temple to Lucifer in the story. He will always buy, and enslave the hearts of our brothers. HF is aware of such, and that is the way of free will. Lucifer is cunning and preys upon such. He is far more intelligent than any of us until we return to the spirit world. We must decide no matter the government to live our spiritual life. Your way is no better than the Islamic Jihad to force upon and to deny free will. If you cannot see that too bad for that is for you to learn.

I and my family are prepared to to be as the Christian martyrs of Rome, and not capitulate to the will of any men. Only God's whose Son will be the only one with the power to rectify the wrongs. Not you nor the prophets can do that no matter how much you desire such. Only until you reach the Celestial Kingdom will you be of greater power than Lucifer. In this world you can be an unwitting tool of his with out ever realizing such. Be careful what you seek. You cannot escape the corruption. You eat Hershey or Nestle chocolate? Then you are already participating in it. You buy gas? Then you are participating in secret combination. Get it yet? I can go on about the corruption, and it's influence in your daily life thast you unwittingly partake in. it's inescapable. You just have to do the best you can in perfecting your spirit.

[

How is it that you propose to keep our nation from upholding secret combinations? Should we all take the stance that you suggest and just try to be as spiritual as we can be and just let the combinations run their course? After all, we can't possibly do anything to stop them, right? Poppycock.

Reality check. No you cannot stop Lucifer. You rid one in society another will rise. Historically proven. Only the savior can stop such.

It is our responsibility to watch for the combinations; and when we see them we cannot allow them to "get above" us. We must take an active role in doing something to fight Satan and his armies with their combinations and their plans to enslave and destroy the agency of man. Yes, be thankful you live in America and not in a Chinese prison, as you stated earlier. But what you and others do to stand up for freedom... to join the fight and put yourself out there even at the risk of your and your family's lives, may just be enough to keep this nation from becoming just like the Chinese example to which you referred.

I'm not talking about just saving your own soul, Sachi. You've built a great case for ensuring that your own personal salvation is taken care of; and that's wonderful, and I agree with you. What I am referring to is your and my and other Gentiles' responsibilities to stand with others in the defense of freedom from the secret combinations that are, in fact all around us. We can do something about them. We can make a difference; but not without bold and unmistakeable action. This is the point that Elder Benson and Moroni are trying to make to us.

It's a noble effort to think you can stand up to such all you can do is preach anf try to convert. However it is unrealistic as long as Lucifer is allowed to roam and is futile. The Natural Man is the Enemy of God. All you can do is preach to your brothers and hope they change. You need to understand that a 1/3 fell away form HF. If the 2/3 of us (followers of PoS)were say the 6 billion now on the planet. You have 2 billion agents of Lucifer running around trying to undermine the PoS.

Even though Moroni staved off the enemy in the end the Nephites were destroyed. It is written that only Christ will rid the unrighteous, and not you, or others because you will fall in the same trap.

Whew long diatribe. Sorry to others I am pau (done). If you don't get what I'm saying then not my problem.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Sachi001

[rubondfan2]

Whew long diatribe. Sorry to others I am pau (done). If you don't get what I'm saying then not my problem.

Thank you for stating your ideas and thoughts on the thread topic. I believe that I do understand what you are saying and I disagree with your conclusions on several points. I'm not sure we're going to be able to reach any common ground here.

I don't believe for one second that we will not be more powerful than Satan until we are in the Celestial kingdom. Quite the contrary, he only has power to bruise our heels, whereas we have power to crush his head. This is a pretty huge doctrinal difference we have on this one and I'm not even sure we're talking about the same Gospel here.

President Benson and other modern prophets have counseled us to do more than just proselyte. My points have had nothing to do with proseletyzing and everything to do with standing up to the combinations, calling them out of their places of secrecy and darkness and then taking an active role in combating them. Will things get worse before they get better? Sure. Will righteous saints suffer? Absolutely. But then again, this life isn't really about the avoidance or absolution of suffering and pain, is it? And living in the blessed and sacred land of America... and being a citizen of it... carries a responsibility to protect it. The Book of Mormon is riddled with counsel to do so and the modern prophets have counseled us likewise. Sitting back and resigning oneself to the seemingly inevitable wave of secret combinations in all their various forms is not the solution, in my opinion.

I am saddened that you believe you are powerless over Satan and his secret and even not-so-secret combinations. This is truly disheartening to learn that there are members of this Gospel who do not understand who they are or how powerful they are; who do not understand even at a basic level that they are NOT subject to Satan, but rather, that the exact opposite is true.

I believe the Book of Mormon counsels us to stand up and combat the evil around us. I hear you saying that it counsels us to develop our personal spirituality, which will then protect us from the evil. I believe we absolutely have power over Satan and will ultimately win this battle (with the Savior's help... especially in the end). I hear you saying that you won't be more powerful than him until we reach the Celestial Kingdom. On these points lie the foundation of both our perspectives and thus our differences.

Thank you again for engaging in this dialogue.

[Matthew0059]

Bump. Only doing this to see if more people will answer the poll. I'm pleasantly surprised at the turnout, actually.