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Bryans_Saturdays

Are We A Closed Minded, Judgemental People?

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Hello!

This is my first post on LDSTalk.com. Until today I didn't even know this forum existed and I offer my thanks to those who have taken their time to create and maintain it. Hat's off to you!

Ok, so, lately this topic has been on my mind a lot (see subject). I mean, it's an idea that has kicked around in the back of my head for years, but over the last few months it has surfaced and spent a lot of time at the front of my head.

I think it started about six months ago when a prominent, educated, respected sister in the ward bore her testimony. She had recently been to a NON-LDS wedding, and commented how sad it was that the bride and groom were only married for time, and how disappointing it was to know that the bride was not (can I say this word in here?) a virgin. "You could just see in her eyes that she was not a chaste young woman." Then the whopper: "Why can't the rest of the world just see and understand how much more pure, wholesome, and clean we are as members of the Lord's true church?"

What?

I did a double take to see if she was serious. She was. Then I looked around. All the adults who were not wrestling with little kids or asleep were all nodding their heads in agreement with deeply, seriously, approving looks on their faces.

Good grief!

Since then I have been paying more attention in talks, lessons, and most of all, testimony meetings. Hardly a Sunday goes by that someone does not manage to slip in a comment about how we are "better" then everyone else. Of course, it's never worded so bluntly, as that would be prideful. But it's there, plain and simple, none the less.

I'm going to butcher the spelling on this word: Ramiumptium. Remember them? The towers on which people went to pray. "Oh Lord! Thank you for making us so much better then our brethren!" It's down right scary how close we are at turning our own pulpits into a ramiumptium.

Now, before I go on, I need to let all of you know a little about my wife and I, lest some of you do the Mormon/Christian thing and judge the whooping daylights out me.

My wife and I both hold current temple recommends. We attend on an almost monthly basis. We are full tithe payers. We were married in the temple. I went on a mission. We are active and we fulfill our callings. We have two kids who are used to daily prayer, Sunday afternoon family home evenings, and scripture study when we make time. You get the idea.

All that being said, I have a hard time stomaching all the Mormon culture garbage that goes on in the church. Just a few examples:

* My wife has recently returned to school full time to become a doctor. As in M.D. As in med school. You would not BELIEVE how many women in the church have said to her, in one form or another "You should be staying home and having more kids. Two is not enough." Or, how many men have said to me "Why are you letting your wife do this?" and "You realize she will earn more money then you when she's done, right?" (too bad they don't make a little yellow face that's puking - I would use it here.)

* About once a year I like to take a weekend and spend it alone or with a close friend in the woods. No fishing, no hunting. Just hike to a remote spot, sit, think, and read. I'll bring my camera in hopes of encounters with wildlife. I like to leave Friday after work and come back Sunday night. I take my scriptures and get a ton of reading done.

When people ask where I am, and my wife tells them, several wives in the ward have commented "Oh! I would NEVER let my husband go camping on Sunday!"

* My seven year old daughter's Easter dress this spring was sleeveless. Not the kind with a thin strap over her shoulders. Just a nice, full length dress with no sleeves. On Easter Sunday one of the sisters who would never let her husband camp on Sunday said to my wife, "Do you think it's appropriate to let your daughter wear a sleeveless dress?"

"Why wouldn't it be?" asked my wife.

"Well!" shocked at my wife's apparent ignorance. "At some point you need to teach her modesty before it's too late!"

* I recently took the teachers and priests camping for a week to a very remote corner of the country. While there, two of the young men went skinny dipping several times. They did it mostly after dark when everyone else was in their tents or it was too dark to see - or during the day they would jump in the lake, take off their suits, swim for a while, then put them back on before getting out. It was perfectly innocent and fun.

The Sunday after we returned I was approached by two adults who scolded me for not putting a stop to such an inappropriate activity. When I tried to explain that there was nothing even remotely inappropriate about what they had done, it was perfectly clear that they had made up their minds. I was wrong and they were right.

* A family was sitting behind us in the chapel before the meeting started. "Dad" said a little boy, pointing to an active brother in the ward who works for the school district. "I saw that man at my school, and he was drinking a PEPSI!"

Quick! How would you respond?

"Shhh!" said the dad. "Don't worry about him. You just need to make sure that YOU never do anything that makes Jesus sad."

I could go on and on and on and on. It all makes me sad. We preach forgiveness, tolerance, acceptance. But I fear we are a church of hypocrites.

The end.

P.S. No, I am not going apostate. My testimony is not shaken. I'm mature enough to separate the gospel from the people in it.

:)

Bryan

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Welcome to the forum Bryan. I could not agree more (well, you and I may differ on procreation attitudes but on everything else I like your style).

Strange how Joseph Smith and Brigham Young bot admitted their faults in public and were extremly modest yet many members could never follow their examples. Oh well, I guess we just have to forgive them.

I'm a first generation Mormon so I am quite sensitive to the idea that outside the Church people are all acting like the party scene in the movie Caligula. We have more truth revealed to us but that just means we have more understanding of God's wisdom and infinite purpose -- I fear that some, like the Jews of ancient time who interpreted being "God's chosen people" as meaning they were racially superior to their neighbors, believe membership in God's church is like belonging to an exclusive countryclub.

My oldest son is having this problem. He moved out when he got a job and is living in Utah. He feels he is totally different than the people in his ward -- hopefully I can convince him that you don't have to fit in to be in and that you can find a good LDS female who is kinda libertarian and open-minded (while having a firm testimony) to marry -- only takes one for now.

I have 7 kids and three are six and under. I'd love to go spend a weekend or two in the mountains -- but due to my job I often have to go to other countries for a week or two so I'll wait on that. However, my wife would have no problem with me going camping -- yes, even on Sunday if it stretched for several days (although I would not take a Sunday off to camp just that day).

Oh, and don't get too upset with Mormons on the appropriate clothing for your daughter thing. A few years back I let my sons run through the sprinkler at my dad's house without clothing (they were seven and under) and the neighbor (not LDS) looked quite upset. Of course in Europe (where I am now) my daughters go over to our neighbor's house and play with their 7 year old daughter and 5 year old son. They have a little pool and they all strip off and jump in. Guess a couple of people in your ward would freak about that but oh well...

Again, welcome and stick around. Judging from your post you might want to join in on the discussions in the adult section.

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Guest ApostleKnight

Welcome to the board Bryan. I've noticed what you describe, sure it happens. I think people confuse the act of having higher standards with having more worth as a person. Sure some people think they're "better" than others. In the sense of worthiness or purity, anyone living the LDS standards will be "better" than anyone not doing so. What it doesn't mean is that God loves them more than someone else, and that's I think what's communicated. I think the core of your observations revolves around pride.

Interestingly, those you criticize for being judgmental about others' standards could say the same thing about your view of theirs. Luckily the Church is big enough for all kinds of people, and the Lord loves us all...and I do have to agree with your take on many, many of your anecdotes.

I don't believe there's anything wrong with judging a person's actions if we use a righteous standard. What's not okay is judging someone's standing before or worth to God. I have been quite frustrated with the sort of people you describe Bryan. They certainly are good at hamstringing missionary efforts with one poorly-crafted sentence at a Church meeting. <_<

Something I've noticed is that people who aren't sure if something's true need other people to live it to validate its truth. So sometimes, not always, people who are sharply critical of others are clinging to something they're not entirely convinced of, and hope for confirmation of a doctrine/standard by someone else's saying, "You're right, I better not do that." I'm not a psychologist, I've just noticed this throughout my life in the Church.

Anyway, as I said good to have you here on the board. I look forward to more of your posts.

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Oh, and don't get too upset with Mormons on the appropriate clothing for your daughter thing. A few years back I let my sons run through the sprinkler at my dad's house without clothing (they were seven and under) and the neighbor (not LDS) looked quite upset. Of course in Europe (where I am now) my daughters go over to our neighbor's house and play with their 7 year old daughter and 5 year old son. They have a little pool and they all strip off and jump in. Guess a couple of people in your ward would freak about that but oh well...

Again, welcome and stick around. Judging from your post you might want to join in on the discussions in the adult section.

:)

What are you doing in Europe? I wish I was with you! I went to France on my misison, and I've nto been back since. My wife and I were going to go this summer (in fact we would be there right now :mellow:) but my sister got married, then my wife's brother got married. After two trips out west, we were out of vacation money and time.

I've asked to be admitted to the Open and Adult forums. I'm curious to see what kind of topics are in them.

What you said (above) reminds me of two stories...

First:

On my mission I spent a summer in Cherbourg, on the Normandy coast. In Europe, the missionaries are a much larger factor in the members lives then they seem to be here, most likely because a normal branch consists of 3 or 4 core families and then the usual scattering of singles and part member families.

When the branch I was in wanted to have a beach party, they planned it on our P-Day so we could some. We had to ask for permission from the President, as normally the beaches in France are off limits. he gave us permission.

As soon as we arrived at the beach, every single child under the age of nine or ten stripped down to nothing and stayed that way until we left. That was surprising enough, but what was more shocking was that about half of the women in the branch kept to French tradition and ditched their tops for the day. Some of them were mothers and grandmothers clearly were not worried about their long since vanished youthful figures, while others were teenage girls who were extremely attractive.

One of the other Elders could not contain his shock, and even a little disgust, and he made a comment how he would feel much more comfortable if the women would please all get dressed. The branch president, who's wife and 14 year old daughter were both topless, chuckled and said "You have to understand, Elder. Here in France, we are comfortable in our skin." None of them got dressed.

At the time I didn't understand what this meant, "comfortable in our skin." Now I think I do... it means simply that they are not ashamed of their skin. Plain and simple.

Second:

My little five year old son is all boy, and he loves to dress up as Spiderman, Zorro, and recently, Nephi (as seen in the Arnold Freeburg painting of Lehi's family on the ship.)

Quit often when he has friends over the mood strikes him to switch costumes, and the process seems to require him to strip down to nothing. Watching the friends reactions is always interesting.

A few days ago we had over two little boys who are new in the ward - my wife was watching their kids as part of a babysitting swap. I was in my office working when one of the boys poked his head in and said, in a tattle-tale voice, "[Your son] is naked!" He clearly expected me to perform some sort of correctional behavior.

"Is that a problem?" I asked the little guy with a soft smile. He looked confused and stood in my doorway for a moment rubbing his hands nervously. It was 100% clear what was going on here... in his house, and thus in his little innocent mind, being naked was a punishable offense. He didn't know how to respond to the fact that I wasn't getting upset.

Yesterday my son had another friend over... a little girl (not LDS) from across the street. I came up stairs just in time to witness my son naked in the living room in the process of ditching the Zorro costume in favor of Spiderman. The neighbor girl was playing with a doll and was clearly unaffected by her friends nudity.

In Minnesota, where we live, Mormons are few and far between, and the closest member of the church lives about three miles away. All of our kid's neighborhood friends are Non LDS. I'm not saying this as a blanket statement, but it seems to me that the fellow LDS people we know are much more uptight about the human body then most of our religious, church-going non-LDS neighbor's.

The little girl I just mentioned has two older brothers, ages about six and eight. I've seen all three of their kids outside naked on a few occasions. It seemed to be more spontaneous then planned, and their parents soon ushered them back in doors with laughter on their faces. And next door to us is a young family of four - their kids are constantly outside in nothing but underwear in the summer, and a few times I've knocked on their door and had it opened by naked kids.

Contrast that to our best friends in the ward. Just about every time they come over my son manages to appear without a shirt, and every time, the mother of this family says "Hey! Your naked!" in a disapproving tone. Like the little boy I mentioned earlier, she seems to expect us to take action. This happens so often that I finally said to her, "Since when did not having a shirt qualify as naked? I think you need to get your terms straight." Then I beckoned my son to me, gave him a hug, kissed him on the cheek, and patted his little tummy.

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Interestingly, those you criticize for being judgmental about others' standards could say the same thing about your view of theirs.

Yes. You have pointed out one of the sticky points of the pride vs. humility ballance. I'm on a personal quest to be more humble and less judgemental. So after a year or so of trying so hard to not look down on other people, for any reason, I see somebody do or say the exact kind of thing I've been trying to stop. Then I think to myself, "Hmm. They should be more humble like me."

And so I'm right back to where I started.

How does one recognize pride in others without being themselves prideful? I honestly don't know the answer to that question.

Bryan

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What? An active Mormon who admits that Mormons are both judgemental and prideful?

I don't believe it. :o

Case in point of my previous post. And, Jason, I should mention that within the LDS religion I have come to know some of the most gently, humble, meek, charitable, giving, forgiving, and all around Christ-like people you will ever hope to meet. I have met many such people OUTside of the LDS religion as well. Some are Muslims and Jews.

I would dearly like to be found possessing the same characters.

Bryan

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Guest ApostleKnight

Then I think to myself, "Hmm. They should be more humble like me."

I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Recognizing that you're humble isn't bad unless you go one step further and think you're better than so-and-so. From the tone of your posts, I don't think you're a proud person.

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What are you doing in Europe? I wish I was with you! I went to France on my misison, and I've nto been back since. My wife and I were going to go this summer (in fact we would be there right now ) but my sister got married, then my wife's brother got married. After two trips out west, we were out of vacation money and time.

My wife is Scandinavian and my job involves a business in Sweden -- so that's where I am most of the time. Not many members in Sweden -- I think there are now more LDS in Moscow than here (and Russia has only been open for about a decade). Swedes and Finns are a quiet sort -- kinda like The Borg on Star Trek (communal, go about their business as if nothing else surrounds them and very conformistic). Took some time getting used to that being from the Pcific Northwest and all.

However, with those characteristics it's hard to strike up conversations that might lead to doing missionary work. Hopefully American TV will help to break down the reserved nature of these Europeans up north.

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Guest ApostleKnight

Actually Ben, I'm the most humble person in the world. Just ask me. :lol:

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Yes. You have pointed out one of the sticky points of the pride vs. humility ballance. I'm on a personal quest to be more humble and less judgemental. So after a year or so of trying so hard to not look down on other people, for any reason, I see somebody do or say the exact kind of thing I've been trying to stop. Then I think to myself, "Hmm. They should be more humble like me."

And so I'm right back to where I started.

How does one recognize pride in others without being themselves prideful? I honestly don't know the answer to that question.

Welcome Bryan to LDStalk. I've read your very few posts and already find you quite witty and clever. I look forward to reading more.

M.

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<div class='quotemain'>

What? An active Mormon who admits that Mormons are both judgemental and prideful?

I don't believe it. :o

Case in point of my previous post. And, Jason, I should mention that within the LDS religion I have come to know some of the most gently, humble, meek, charitable, giving, forgiving, and all around Christ-like people you will ever hope to meet. I have met many such people OUTside of the LDS religion as well. Some are Muslims and Jews.

I would dearly like to be found possessing the same characters.

Bryan

The problem with this Bryan is that those great people are few in number in all organizations.

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My seven year old daughter's Easter dress this spring was sleeveless. Not the kind with a thin strap over her shoulders. Just a nice, full length dress with no sleeves. On Easter Sunday one of the sisters who would never let her husband camp on Sunday said to my wife, "Do you think it's appropriate to let your daughter wear a sleeveless dress?"

LOL..... I had to laugh. We are active day hikers. Up to 17 miles on a long hike and a 7-8 mile hike is nothing. When hiking I would sometimes lose my shirt. My then 5 year old, up until she was about an 9 year old, would lose her shirt too..... always a daddies girl doing what daddy did. Now at that age from the waist up there is no difference at all between boys and girls (still isn't for her yet). But heck, even the so-so religious people would take me to task on that one. It might even have happened on this board. I can only imagine what that lady would think of the likes of me. If she came upon us on the trial she'd probably stroke out. LOL

PS - My little one is almost eleven now and doesn't do that anymore. It wasn't me that told her not too either. She figured it out all on her own. Kids aren't stupid, they can pick up on societal type constraints..... and she did just what I always told everybody in those debates she would do.

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Some people CAN be, but I wouldn't generalize this as "we".

And, every ward has its closed minded judgmental stereotypes, some more than others.

This is also true of a lot of other groups with a spiritual, moral or ethical bond, it certainly isn't restricted to LDS.

And, it isn't that these Mormon cultural peculiarities are not recognized and don't sometimes become the brunt of humor. If you haven't yet seen it, watch the movie "Mobsters and Mormons". Everyone I've ever known was in it, LOL.

Part of this, IMO, and much of the hypocrisy in the LDS Church, I think, stems from the fact that there are so many external measurments of faith (mode of dress, paying tithing, having a temple recommend, culturally Mormon things like family size, etc.) by which some judge others, not realizing that it is what is in our hearts that counts, and no one can see into our hearts, nor do they have the right to judge.

Long ago I bought my then 4 year old daughter a red and white checked bathing suit with ruffled trim, two piece. My EX husband brought her to tears (we were already divorced, he was both physically and emotionally abusive in our marriage, but sure did toe the outward church line.It eventually caught up with him though)by telling her that "good little Mormon girls did not wear bikinis".

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Hello!

This is my first post on LDSTalk.com. Until today I didn't even know this forum existed and I offer my thanks to those who have taken their time to create and maintain it. Hat's off to you!

Ok, so, lately this topic has been on my mind a lot (see subject). I mean, it's an idea that has kicked around in the back of my head for years, but over the last few months it has surfaced and spent a lot of time at the front of my head.

Welcome Bryan to LDSTALK..... Glad you found our board, and hope to hear alot more from you, you will make a great addition to our little board family ;)

"Are We A Closed Minded, Judgemental People?, I'm worried that Mormons are not open to non-LDS viewpoints" I really think that it depends on the area you are in.... I have seen both lovng open minded, non judgemental members, and I have seen the closed minded, judgemental ones you refer to. I prefer the open minded ones myself....lol The other ones have turned me non active at times, just to avoid their sarcasm. But, I always go back (fo sacrement meeting)..... cause I'm LDS for ME, not for anyone else... so they can take their attitudes and ..........well, save them for a rainy day :)

Keyboard isgoing out...so I'll finish when I et home

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Just some personal thoughts

I strongly believe that LDS are closeminded and judgemental at times

Is that all bad? I don't think so. We have to have a separation line between ourselves and the world. That will probably be a little different for each of us depending on our individual experiences.

We have to judge for ourselves what is right and wrong.

We need to constantly be asking ourself and have an awareness:

What kind of message are we giving to others?

Can others see a change or difference in us?

Are we doing in our own lifes what would best reflect our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ?

If its not good then we need to make changes.

Most times the things that are judged are good things that we should be concerned about but people take them far out of prospective. The gospel should ultimately build us, others and Christs church up in the long run. They should reflect our love and service in the name of Jesus Christ. The things of Satan will destroy or keep us from that. I believe we need to be more concerned with the content of the heart and not just putting on a show following some little rule for others. We need to watch how we treat others or we will just become a hippocritical, showy people who God will judge harshly on the last day. Unfortunately there are many walking around who do not feel or act the same.

Thats when I have to take a step back. We are all learning and growing so there will be people trapped in the legalities of things and missing the whole point of what the gospel is all about. Then there are people who don't get concerned at all in what they should be doing and annoy those who are. It's a learning and forgiving experience all around.

One thing I have seen, and I think some of its because of the history of persecution, some people are desperate to come up with some things to seperate themselves from other faiths and try to make it so much better than it is. Its almost as if people aren't doing certain legalistic things particular to the church then there is a fear there is nothing to separate us from the other churches. As Satan is getting stronger many members have focused on outward signs of faith and not on the heart. There is such a rich history in scriptures of this happening-the Pharisees and Saduccees for example. By doing these things we have some measure to judge ourselves by and don't have to actually look at our own hearts and determine its intent. It comes out of fear and maybe a little pride.

Just some of my thoughts and ideas on the topic.

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Are We A Closed Minded, Judgemental People?

I don't think that it is good to lump all people in a group into a category like this.

I think that the way we were raised has a lot to do with tolerance of others. If someone is taught that rules are most important than people those are the ones who will judge another harshly. I also believe that some who judge other have not experienced what it feels like to be judged by another. I believe that trails are given for many reasons. Some of those reasons are to soften the hearts of those who are affected, or to help those around them to learn compassion.

Awhile back there was a thread here, on the board, where someone was upset that a person with HPV virus would be treated. HPV virus is a sexually transmitted virus that can cause cervical cancer.If I remember right, this poster felt that any disease that occurred because of the "sin' that caused it should suffer the consequences. To me that is not living in the real world, things happen, people make mistakes, but if something can be done they shouldn't be left to die because of their sin. Did Christ tell the others to stone the woman who was an adulterer? "He who is without sin cast the first stone".

I think that if we can try to live a Christ-like life, and remember to think about what he would do, then we are not wrong IMO. :)

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I think that the way we were raised has a lot to do with tolerance of others. If someone is taught that rules are most important than people those are the ones who will judge another harshly.

I think that is true. My parents were not LDS but would comment on issues of the day and make sure they conveyed what was right and what was wrong. However, they also never made an issue of people I knew and were even quite tolerant of the LDS family that moved in next door. I personally do not see why one would try to hurt others -- give me a break, Jesus did not put rules in front of the most important commandments to love one another and help each other.

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Good posts Rosie and SF I enjoyed both

I also feel the same as SF does in the fact "I think that the way we were raised has a lot to do with tolerance of others. If someone is taught that rules are most important than people those are the ones who will judge another harshly. I also believe that some who judge other have not experienced what it feels like to be judged by another. " There are some who take everything written LITERALLY without room for personal thoughts or feelings of other people. So many things are written as a guide for us, it is up to us as individuals to apply it to our lives as we see fit.

I think that 4 different people can look at the same picture and see so many different things, whose right and whose wrong? If they see what they see, how can someone tell them they don't? I think that I have been put thru trials to make me a more humble person, to accept more things I could never accept before. I was just as bad as some in judging some people but I see more thru the eyes of Christ when I realized what I was doing.

I was scared of people in wheelchairs growing up... I don't know why, I just was... I would avoid them at any cost. When I was 16, I had the chance of helping out in a rehab center, when a "to be" family member had an accident and put in a wheelchair for life. I learned a lot that summer about not judging others because of your fears, or their circumstances.... yet I still judge at times, mainly for things I can't understand...or don't want to understand I guess. Homosexuals and those that hurt others for self pleasure.....somethings I will never understand... and I just don't want to be a part of it.

I can't lie to myself and say I don't judge... I still do, I just try harder not to.

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This is my first post here and my first visit to any chat room at all. Upon discovering this site, I was surprised and hope to be delighted at some point. I was so happy to see this subject..... it has been the topic of discussion in our home and family a lot. We moved from the east to Utah about 6 years ago and were really truly amazed, and dismayed that the things we had always heard regarding this very thing were absolutely true! I am a lifetime member of the church, have ancestors all the way back...some killed at the Hauns Mill Massacre. Others went on to settle many parts of Utah and become leaders in the church. My husband joined with his family when he was 13. We were married in the temple and have raised a wonderful family, all grown now and we are enjoying grandchildren. We have always tried to be faithful members of the church, sacrificing much in our callings and always striving to do the right thing. I have served in the R.S. and Primary as counselor and teacher...and have been YW pres and Stake YW pres, served in those 2 callings for nearly 9 years total. Have had a strong testimony through searching, studying and praying...and of course serving. However since moving here, my testimony has absolutely been shaken. I too know the difference between the gospel and people, and would never allow the actions of people to keep me from what I know to be right. I certainly preached this to young women and young men throughout my service in the church and counselled with parents regarding this subject as well. However I am perplexed somewhat that it is this very thing that has lead me to now have doubts. The main thing is that there are wonderful people everywhere! Shouldn't we as Latter Day Saints know that more than anyone? Do we really believe that we are the only good people on earth??? How arrogant to think that. I honestly believe that come judgement day there are going to be more Mormons shocked than anyone else...without a doubt. Being a member of the church doesn't send us straight to the Celestial Kingdom.........you actually have to be a Christian and practice Christianity......we do. If you don't think so you will be one of those shocked souls, I guarantee it. We were in sacrament meeting, ( our first time attending after many months of inactivity, mind you) and the sister speaking said, in the midst of a story she was telling, that "it is a foreign idea for people living outside of Utah, NOT to swear")...huh? I can't imagine she had ever been outside the state if she thinks that is true, and has she ever listened to conversations IN Utah? I have lived all over the world, literally, and I can promise you that absolutely people are good upstanding, kind, moral people who actually do NOT swear in the midst of their everyday conversations. This is by no means the only story of this kind, however it was fairly benign and was a good example of what I am talking about here.

Has anyone else had doubts about the gospel itself, that has stemmed from the actions of others on an ongoing basis? I should elaborate some...somehow one thing has led to another, one hurt after another.....until I have begun to question the very truthfulness of the gospel itself. I have come to feel that leaders are given too much power to literally destroy people's lives if they so choose, and they go unchecked. This is born, in my opinion...out of their own lack of Christianity intheir own lives. I can elaborate more if anyone wants....but I will put it on hold until I know if anyone wants to hear it.

And what is the deal with ..the term..mission field? Isn't the whole world the mission field? My brother-in-law served IN Utah on his mission, and yet they use the term liberally to refr to anywhere other than here.

I am just reaching out here........of course it is much more complex than just htis but I feel that the very core stems from this very idea...and in my opinion, too far and too often, true...that we are a close minded and very, very judgemental people as a whole. There are many, many good people who are not at all but as a whole I have to say that I believe with all my heart that is the case and if so, how can this be the one and true living church on the face of the earth?

Anyone with any words of wisdom here without being judgemental as well??

thanks....

youngatheart :hmmm:

Hello!

This is my first post on LDSTalk.com. Until today I didn't even know this forum existed and I offer my thanks to those who have taken their time to create and maintain it. Hat's off to you!

Ok, so, lately this topic has been on my mind a lot (see subject). I mean, it's an idea that has kicked around in the back of my head for years, but over the last few months it has surfaced and spent a lot of time at the front of my head.

I think it started about six months ago when a prominent, educated, respected sister in the ward bore her testimony. She had recently been to a NON-LDS wedding, and commented how sad it was that the bride and groom were only married for time, and how disappointing it was to know that the bride was not (can I say this word in here?) a virgin. "You could just see in her eyes that she was not a chaste young woman." Then the whopper: "Why can't the rest of the world just see and understand how much more pure, wholesome, and clean we are as members of the Lord's true church?"

What?

I did a double take to see if she was serious. She was. Then I looked around. All the adults who were not wrestling with little kids or asleep were all nodding their heads in agreement with deeply, seriously, approving looks on their faces.

Good grief!

Since then I have been paying more attention in talks, lessons, and most of all, testimony meetings. Hardly a Sunday goes by that someone does not manage to slip in a comment about how we are "better" then everyone else. Of course, it's never worded so bluntly, as that would be prideful. But it's there, plain and simple, none the less.

I'm going to butcher the spelling on this word: Ramiumptium. Remember them? The towers on which people went to pray. "Oh Lord! Thank you for making us so much better then our brethren!" It's down right scary how close we are at turning our own pulpits into a ramiumptium.

Now, before I go on, I need to let all of you know a little about my wife and I, lest some of you do the Mormon/Christian thing and judge the whooping daylights out me.

My wife and I both hold current temple recommends. We attend on an almost monthly basis. We are full tithe payers. We were married in the temple. I went on a mission. We are active and we fulfill our callings. We have two kids who are used to daily prayer, Sunday afternoon family home evenings, and scripture study when we make time. You get the idea.

All that being said, I have a hard time stomaching all the Mormon culture garbage that goes on in the church. Just a few examples:

* My wife has recently returned to school full time to become a doctor. As in M.D. As in med school. You would not BELIEVE how many women in the church have said to her, in one form or another "You should be staying home and having more kids. Two is not enough." Or, how many men have said to me "Why are you letting your wife do this?" and "You realize she will earn more money then you when she's done, right?" (too bad they don't make a little yellow face that's puking - I would use it here.)

* About once a year I like to take a weekend and spend it alone or with a close friend in the woods. No fishing, no hunting. Just hike to a remote spot, sit, think, and read. I'll bring my camera in hopes of encounters with wildlife. I like to leave Friday after work and come back Sunday night. I take my scriptures and get a ton of reading done.

When people ask where I am, and my wife tells them, several wives in the ward have commented "Oh! I would NEVER let my husband go camping on Sunday!"

* My seven year old daughter's Easter dress this spring was sleeveless. Not the kind with a thin strap over her shoulders. Just a nice, full length dress with no sleeves. On Easter Sunday one of the sisters who would never let her husband camp on Sunday said to my wife, "Do you think it's appropriate to let your daughter wear a sleeveless dress?"

"Why wouldn't it be?" asked my wife.

"Well!" shocked at my wife's apparent ignorance. "At some point you need to teach her modesty before it's too late!"

* I recently took the teachers and priests camping for a week to a very remote corner of the country. While there, two of the young men went skinny dipping several times. They did it mostly after dark when everyone else was in their tents or it was too dark to see - or during the day they would jump in the lake, take off their suits, swim for a while, then put them back on before getting out. It was perfectly innocent and fun.

The Sunday after we returned I was approached by two adults who scolded me for not putting a stop to such an inappropriate activity. When I tried to explain that there was nothing even remotely inappropriate about what they had done, it was perfectly clear that they had made up their minds. I was wrong and they were right.

* A family was sitting behind us in the chapel before the meeting started. "Dad" said a little boy, pointing to an active brother in the ward who works for the school district. "I saw that man at my school, and he was drinking a PEPSI!"

Quick! How would you respond?

"Shhh!" said the dad. "Don't worry about him. You just need to make sure that YOU never do anything that makes Jesus sad."

I could go on and on and on and on. It all makes me sad. We preach forgiveness, tolerance, acceptance. But I fear we are a church of hypocrites.

The end.

P.S. No, I am not going apostate. My testimony is not shaken. I'm mature enough to separate the gospel from the people in it.

:)

Bryan

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How could you possibly link homosexuals in the same group with those who hurt others? And how can you not understand? I believe they are absolutely born with that tendency...while I do believe it is both a choice and a sin, I believe we are all born with tendencies toward this or that. Some have a tendency toward drugs or alcohol, or whatever.....isn't that why we are here, to overcome the world? Just because a person does not have the same understanding of the gospel that we do, doesn't make them a bad person! I promise! We all do what we know best and when we know better we do better....that's what life is about. I just can't see how anyone could link homosexuals with those who intentionally cause others harm...I mean really. I think this maybe helps to verify the fact that we as a whole are indeed a close minded and judgemental people. Stop and think...if you didn't have the gospel in your life...would you make other choices? I am sure we all would. Don't make claims against others that are untrue and judge them simply because they have not been taught the same as you have. That in itself is very, very judgemental!.

youngatheart

Good posts Rosie and SF I enjoyed both

I also feel the same as SF does in the fact "I think that the way we were raised has a lot to do with tolerance of others. If someone is taught that rules are most important than people those are the ones who will judge another harshly. I also believe that some who judge other have not experienced what it feels like to be judged by another. " There are some who take everything written LITERALLY without room for personal thoughts or feelings of other people. So many things are written as a guide for us, it is up to us as individuals to apply it to our lives as we see fit.

I think that 4 different people can look at the same picture and see so many different things, whose right and whose wrong? If they see what they see, how can someone tell them they don't? I think that I have been put thru trials to make me a more humble person, to accept more things I could never accept before. I was just as bad as some in judging some people but I see more thru the eyes of Christ when I realized what I was doing.

I was scared of people in wheelchairs growing up... I don't know why, I just was... I would avoid them at any cost. When I was 16, I had the chance of helping out in a rehab center, when a "to be" family member had an accident and put in a wheelchair for life. I learned a lot that summer about not judging others because of your fears, or their circumstances.... yet I still judge at times, mainly for things I can't understand...or don't want to understand I guess. Homosexuals and those that hurt others for self pleasure.....somethings I will never understand... and I just don't want to be a part of it.

I can't lie to myself and say I don't judge... I still do, I just try harder not to.

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How could you possibly link homosexuals in the same group with those who hurt others? And how can you not understand?

Geeez louise I wasn't linking homosexuals in the same group as anything.... edited with: NOT meaning ALONG WITH

I meant AND to imply AND ........... homosexuals AND those who hurt others

TWO seperate groups ......

someone need a hug?

How can I not understand? Possibly how I was brought up.... that statement "I think that the way we were raised has a lot to do with tolerance of others. If someone is taught that rules are most important than people those are the ones who will judge another harshly. " was something that hit home... "BECAUSE THAT"S THE WAY IT IS" ...edited: THAT is what I heard growing up.... I didn't grow up with a religious family.... sure glad you were taught what was right and wrong....the correct way. ;)

Peace out,

Lindy

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Lindy -

I could see what you said being interpeted the way that youngatheart took it. Though your explanation works for me. :)

Thanks Scott... your a pal :)

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