Would it do more damage to come clean?


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i think the question is very easily answered. what values do you want your children to grow up embracing. truth is essential in all things good. didn't jesus proclaim "i am the way, the TRUTH and the light". i am not sure where you stand on christianity in general, but if you are to follow the most basic lesson taught by christ then truth should trump all else. just pray that your family, if truely convicted in the teachings of the church, choose to follow the other values they are taught, forgiveness and charity! best of luck mate :)

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Actually I agree with him there. But I hold the premise that we are supposed to hold a perfect trust and love in God, I rather suspect none of us actually do (I certainly don't) mind you, but it is what we are supposed to be doing. By not doing this, by sinning (we are commanded to be perfect after all), we allow ourselves to be drawn away from God. Another way to phrase this may be that imperfection draws us away from God and if we were perfect we could not and would not be drawn away from him.

Which makes it a sin in a technical sense, but once again the utility of declaring, "If you were perfect you'd not have imperfections" is limited.

This is where we disagree. Imperfection is not a sin. Sinning is imperfect but that does not make the opposite true. Keeping commandments builds testimony but having a testimony isn't a commandment. We often hear this concept applied to tithing. It's ok if you don't have a testimony of it, just do it, the testimony will come.

I know my train of thought can often be scattered or longer than necessary but try to follow me. lol This one is particularly hard for me to explain simply because it's personal and by no means feel obligated to read it.

We are told we will be given strengths and weaknesses so that we can learn and grow. If we come unto Christ our weaknesses will become strengths and if we don't strive to grow our strengths will become weaknesses. (Ether 12:26ish)

When we struggle with those god given weaknesses are we sinning? I don't believe so. When I misspell a word I've not sinned, just not my strength. When my attention gets deficited and I fail to actually start the dishwasher after loading it and putting soap in (lol yes I do that more than I'd like to admit) I've not sinned, just my weakness of dealing with ADD.

The question is does faith, trust in god, belief, etc fall into the category of weakness vs strength or sin vs righteousness.

We know that everyone is given gifts from the spirit (or god). Everyone is not given everything, we are given different ones that we can learn and grow. If we all had every gift then there would be no strengths and weaknesses, just strengths. Gifts are strengths and lack of a gift is a weakness. We are told some of these gifts are to know Christ and his sacrifice and to others to believe the words of those that know; the gift of wisdom vs knowledge; faith to heal vs faith to be healed; prophesy; discerning of spirits; tongues vs interpretation of tongues. (D&C46:11ish)

So according to D&C faith (in it's various forms) is indeed a gift from the spirit. Which means you have it (a strength) or you don't (a weakness), and that comes from god. Doubting may be an imperfection in faith (a weakness) but that is not a sin. So when we struggle with an imperfection in faith are we sinning? If that imperfection came from god is god causing us to sin? Logic would say god would not cause us to sin. So imperfection can't be a sin. (Yes, we already know from Ether if we persevere in our weakness it will eventually become a strength.)

Now can a person sin by improperly dealing with an imperfection? yes. Can those sins draw us further away from god? yes. Is that usually the most common situation? probably. Does that make it every situation? no

How this applies to this thread. Taking my own situation I questioned, I had almost 0 faith/trust in god (I won't go into all the details of how I got to that point but know that prior to this point I had a very strong faith/trust in god and there was no major sin). So why did I hold on? I knew I made a covenant to do certain things and though I didn't really trust god anymore I trusted myself. I knew when I made the covenant I believed it (more than believe, I knew) it was a truth for me. Though I was losing confidence in that truth I had nothing to replace it. So my choice was to keep doing what I was doing having faith in myself that it was true at least at some point in my life and keep my covenants as best as I could until either my knowledge of that truth returned or I found something I knew to be a greater truth. So there was no faith but there was also no sin. At first. Over the yrs of dealing with this I did pick up some habits I shouldn't have had. After years the things I once knew have started to return. It doesn't take away having to deal with my bad habits I now have. And those sins have to be dealt with now (nothing major mind you). But the doubt and loss of testimony lead to the vulnerability to sin, not sin leading to loss of testimony. So if I continue with the things that are returning then maybe when all is said and done I won't doubt again, maybe that won't be a struggle for me.

At my darkest moments I went to my branch pres and told him everything. He knew I didn't have any faith left and he knew why. He even said something like "after everything you have been through I can understand why you are doubting". But he never said anything like if you don't believe don't be a hypocrite type attitude. He commended me on still coming. He bore his testimony and acknowledged that though I didn't feel it now if I would hang in there, do everything I could do, that it would be ok. He didn't know how, just that it would be. I didn't know his words to be true, I didn't even feel the spirit tell me they were true. I just wanted them to be true. My wanting it to be true was only slightly greater than my wanting to let go, so I kept coming with his reassurance that it was the right thing.

So what if I had posted here before going to my branch pres. "I don't have faith anymore. I keep going to church to keep my kids lives stable and not confuse them. I do what I'm asked at church because I love the ppl but I just don't believe right now." Instead of being encouraged to hang on I get called a lair and a hypocrite? I would be told I had major sin in my life most likely infidelity? After all that I don't know if I would have survived the years it took to start to believe again.

So for ppl like op instead of name calling and finger pointing, if all he can do is keep stability for his family that's something. In those opportunities are chances to feel the spirit, to remember what is lost. If there is nothing he wants to replace it with why send him packing? Support him in doing what he can, in keeping his covenants as far as he is able and let god worry about his testimony. You would support the recovering porn addict why not him (why not me)?

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Imperfection is not a sin.

Within the context of the discussion it is. We're talking about failing to have a perfect love and trust in God. If you don't accept the premise that we are supposed to trust and love God, perfectly, then of course you disagree but with the premise comes the conclusion.

Keeping commandments builds testimony but having a testimony isn't a commandment.

Yes it is:

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Are you seriously arguing that we are not under commandment to believe in Jesus Christ?

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This whole premise that every loss of a testimony has to do with some sin taking place in a persons life is absolutely not true. The thinking in the church, especially in the last 20-30 years, has been that it's a 'one size fits all' when it comes to losing a testimony. However, if you take a trip over to New Order Mormon you'll see LDS left and right who either have a shaky testimony to no testimony at all and none of which is sin related. It seems like a more common reason (not the only though) simply has to do with the word 'google'. One example could be that a perfectly good temple recommend holding man/woman is sitting at their computer trying to learn more about the church when they notice a website that says "the book of Abraham is a fraud?! what's this?!" Thus their journey into the cybernet world of learning different perspectives about the church. All right or all wrong? who really knows for sure. From what I can tell though on NOM a LOT have gone down this similar testimony shaken road.....and yet some still maintain and hold on to their belief in Christ and God. We're 13 million members in this church with 13 million different experiences on how we end up where we are in life. Again, one size surely does not fit all.

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Believing in god and having a testimony with perfect faith are not the same thing.

I'm arguing that not having a perfect testimony or not having perfect faith or having doubt is a sin. Also that those doubts are not always the result of sin (or maybe I should say personal sin from the person doubting, I'm sure if you break down the situation far enough you will find someone sinned somewhere).

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Believing in god and having a testimony with perfect faith are not the same thing.

Believing in God is having a testimony of him (that faith is involved here goes without saying, but to say it, we are commanded to have faith), and we are supposed to live the commandments perfectly. Not that we do, and the Lord understands when we fail to live up to his commands as he would have us but the requirement is there.

36 Look unto me in every thought; doubt not, fear not.

Doubt is of the devil, it is a sin. It is an extremely common one that tends to exist in all of us to one degree or another but that does not change it's nature. Doubt in God is not of him. Obviously we have a fundamental difference of opinion as it pertains to requirements of believing in and having faith in God.

Edited by Dravin
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  • 3 weeks later...

Alma 32:21 And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.

By this definition, having faith indicates a lack of sure knowledge.

When one bears their testimony, they express two things. They indicate what they know, or have a sure knowledge of, and what they believe, or still take on faith.

President Joseph Fielding Smith

“When a man has the manifestation from the Holy Ghost, it leaves an indelible impression on his soul, one that is not easily erased. It is Spirit speaking to spirit, and it comes with convincing force. A manifestation of an angel, or even of the Son of God himself, would impress the eye and mind, and eventually become dimmed, but the impressions of the Holy Ghost sink deeper into the soul and are more difficult to erase."

“Through the Holy Ghost the truth is woven into the very fibre and sinews of the body so that it cannot be forgotten” (Reference)

If a man has obtained through faith, a sure knowledge, by the power of the Holy Ghost, the truth of this Gospel, I declare such knowledge can not be lost save through sin.

Mark 4:3-8

3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:

4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.

5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:

6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.

8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.

Mark 4:14-20

14 ¶The sower soweth the word.

15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;

17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word’s sake, immediately they are offended.

18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,

19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

Shall we say that here that Satan immediately came and took away the faith that was sown in his heart?

No.

Alma 32:38 But if ye neglect the tree, and take no thought for its nourishment, behold it will not get any

root; and when the heat of the sun cometh and scorcheth it, because it hath no root it withers away, and ye pluck it up and cast it out.

Shall we say that he did not nourish his faith?

No. A man who teaches and read the scriptures daily, attends Sunday worship, and faithfully magnifies his callings is not one for which I would say there are a lack of nourishing works.

Is it any wonder when someone concludes that thorns of sin have grown up around him and are choking his faith to death?

JST Matt. 7:1–2 Now these are the words which Jesus taught his disciples that they should say unto the people. Judge not unrighteously, that ye be not judged: but judge righteous judgment.

I more than anyone else here know my own ignorance and lack of wisdom. Those who disagree, please unfold the scriptures to me that I may learn wisdom.

You came here asking advice. What shall I do?

Will you let things remain as they are, professing with lips that which the heart does not believe?

Though you may try, this is not a lie you can live forever.

This will eat at you, fester at you until either you confess or your conscience becomes seared as with iron to the point where it feels nothing about lieing and deceiving the very ones you love most.

Lance this wound now and it may heal but let it fester and it will infect and cause illness to the entire body.

Edited by Martain
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  • 3 months later...

This is an update on my situation for anyone who is interested. I appreciate all of the advice that was offered up by you guys.

I did sit down with my wife and talk about two months ago, and was shocked to find that she had some of the same concerns with the church that I did. (Not adultery, whoever mentioned that earlier in the thread...grow up)

Long story short, we have both decided to end our relationship with the LDS church, although we harbor no ill feelings toward anyone. I understand that this news might come as a disappointment to many of you here, but just know that it wasn't a decision that we took lightly.

Thanks again for everyone that responded to my OP, I really do appreciate your help.

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I had to come clean with my wife recently and even though it was extremely difficult, I thought it would be the best for both of us. I know the outcome will not necessarily be what we want it to be, but you have to be fair to yourself and your family. I believe my case is spiraling down due to me being honest, but I felt it was the right thing to do for the longer-term. Lying and deceit will sooner or later be exposed and the pain will be much greater over time.

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  • 4 weeks later...

It seems that something has "numbed you", so that you are in denial about the ramifications of denying Christ once you knew him. You are running game on everyone you know and just waiting for the perfect moment to "strike their hearts and mow them all down!"

Aren't you on a bit of a power trip for the wrong side?

And willingly giving up your second estate?

Are you are into pornography and not willing to come right out and say it and you are leading everyone on a "twenty questions" guess trip? You are such a liar you are even trying to mask

what the real problem is by making appearances of righteousness when your heart is really sick.

You know you can change it if you humble yourself and pray about it. You know you can be forgiven

if you seek it. But the part about denying the Holy Ghost and Jesus Christ? Are you so sure that is the right thing to do?

What about the bishop? You are supposed to work things out to the best conclusion before you ever go to him. You are going to do a huge "dump job" on everyone. You have already turned your back.

Why don't you just go packing and get it over with? Everyone will survive your wicked plan somehow.

God will watch over them, and that is something you have no control over because he is already doing it!

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I applaud your understanding that family is more important than ideals. A family relationship is far more enduring than a token faith. Unfortunately, my views on marriage are not universal and sadly, the woman I love values her own opinions over a relationship. Compromise brings more peace than ideology.

I do find it alarming and ironic that a common tactic of the desperate is attempting to introduce guilt into your decisions thereby somehow rationalizing themselves a wall of hysterics.

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I have had my doubts as well, not to the point to were you are. I have just come to the realization that i love the culture and how it influences youth and children. It is very postive and uplifting. Becuase i feel this way, and i know i want my children to be raised in it, i still attend and ebrace the goodness of the religion. Even though i have my doubts and issues with this aspect, i just realize that its not way uncomfortable for me to go to church every week with my kids as long as it helps them out ( i would like to at least show and be a good example to them) I think if you mention this to your wife, that your still willing to go to church for the kids and her, i think she would really apricate that! i know i would if i was in her position.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Tell yourself whatever you need to to justify your actions. The truth doesn't change. You're just trying to run away from it because, well, you know why...darkness and light don't mix. I feel sorry for your kids...they will pay the price for your decision to lead them away. You are the one who needs to grow up.

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Hi all. I am just looking for some friendly advice...

I was born into the LDS church, went on a mission, got married in the Temple etc. etc. However, I have (over a process of time) come to no longer believe in the Gospel. (Not the point of this post) The point is that, I have a wife and several children, and I don't know how to tell her, or even if I should. The church goes far back in each of our family histories and is culturally part of who we are. I am still actively going to church, and I have two callings that I am very dedicated to.

My question is, should I just keep quiet about the fact that I don't believe in any of this? I really don't want to upset my family, and I'm not one of those people that has some existential crisis every time I bear my testimony in class (I am a seminary teacher) even though I know I am just lying when I do so. I give talks, pay tithing, teach lessons etc, and just pretend that I believe it, however I do wish sometimes that I could just be frank with my family about my disbelief. Like I said, I just keep my mouth shut because I don't want to upset my wife, parents etc, and I don't mind my kids growing up "Mormon" because I think the church teaches good values.

Any thoughts?

Hello,

Sorry to enter the thread so late. I just found your post and have very briefly read some of the responses to it.....I would rather post what I would say without being influenced by others. However, I mostly agree with the kindness of LMM and his understanding of the predicament you are in....

Also, from what I've read of other's posts, I see a great deal of fear and accusation towards you. All of which I disagree with and do not advocate...

So, what do you want to do with all this? What are your fears with "coming out" and letting your true feelings be known? I say this because I have a very close family member who went on a mission and has a temple marriage and is now a full-fledged atheist....I still love him dearly.

I think it's up to you how to handle something like this. For myself, I'm honest about things to a fault. I'm very straightforwards about who I am and what I believe....but, for me, that's the only authentic way to live. LMM brought up a good point about putting your family first and your own desires second. However, if you do decide to tell your family your true feelings, maybe if you did it in a peaceful, loving way without any expectation or demands on how they should react, maybe they would accept it better and love you still. I think especially of your children; children tend to be more "open" to another's differences if explained to them in a kind, loving non-confrontational way.

If this doesn't float your boat, then don't worry about it. Give yourself space to be okay with what you believe. It is up to you. It seems though, that you are not okay so much with not telling them how you truly feel, which, as I've already explained, I can understand. If you were okay with things the way they are currently, I don't think you would be here asking us for advice......Are you okay with it? If not, are you feeling guilty? Fearful? Or that you simply want to be accepted for who you are and what you do believe?

Just things to think about. I would suggest simply to get in tune with what it is you truly want out of all this, and then acting accordingly.

Dove

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PS,

So glad you were able to talk openly to your wife (I found your post after I had written my last one)

So sorry to see you leave the gospel....Of course, it's because I believe it's true.

Best of wishes to you and your wife's new course

Dove

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PSS

I'm suspecting that the OP was a set up....

It seems too extreme to "have two callings in the church," be "a seminary teacher," "pay my tithing" etc., "can't tell my family, for it would really hurt them," then "I talked to my wife and we're both agreed about the church and we're disassociating from it."

Something's smelling in Denmark about this to me. I don't believe this story~Too much in too little of a time frame~

So, what's up, szorgwhatever? What was your intent in posting this thread? I don't believe your story.....

Whatever your "test" was, it seems many of us failed terribly. I'm torn in feeling anger for the set up, or seeing this as an opportunity for us to take a look at how easily we succumb to fear and hatred when our beliefs are challenged.

Shame on you for lying to get a reaction, shame on us for reacting as some of us did!

Dove

Edited by Dove
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PSS

I'm suspecting that the OP was a set up....

It seems too extreme to "have two callings in the church," be "a seminary teacher," "pay my tithing" etc., "can't tell my family, for it would really hurt them," then "I talked to my wife and we're both agreed about the church and we're disassociating from it."

Something's smelling in Denmark about this to me. I don't believe this story~Too much in too little of a time frame~

So, what's up, szorgwhatever? What was your intent in posting this thread? I don't believe your story.....

Whatever your "test" was, it seems many of us failed terribly. I'm torn in feeling anger for the set up, or seeing this as an opportunity for us to take a look at how easily we succumb to fear and hatred when our beliefs are challenged.

Shame on you for lying to get a reaction, shame on us for reacting as some of us did!

Dove

No, it wasn't a set up. I live in an area with a small branch, and most people here have two callings.

My intention for posting was to get advice from members of the church, which I did. Some people were nice and some were judgmental and leaped to bold conclusions, but I appreciated hearing all points of view.

I honestly never imagined that this thread would generate the discussion that it did, which should be apparent by the minimal amount of posting that I have done on it, but if you choose to believe that I made up a story to set people up, then I can't change your mind. I know you are a good person at heart, and I was touched by your previous two posts.

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I've known several people with doubts who still remained active and held callings. It's not that unusual. It bothers me that it's so very taboo to have doubts about the Church. I thought we believed in freedom of thought and inquiry! And it seems natural that over the course of a lifetime, a person's perspective would change from time to time, and new questions come up that she hadn't asked previously, along with challenges to one's faith. That's not something to be ashamed up and hide from. We should be talking about these things openly--that's what church is for, isn't it? If we don't acknowledge questions and doubts and openly discuss them, how else can we help people deal with them? And treating them as something to be ashamed of is not a good way of encouraging discussion.

I hope things go well with you and your wife and family. Since I don't know you personally, I'm not comfortable giving you too much advice, but I will say that some people I know have doubts, but continue participating in church anyway. It may be partly for the sake of their family, which is a very good reason in itself, but also because they see that there is plenty of good in the Church and they agree with some of what it teaches, and that's good enough. Other people decide it's better for them to stop attending, but still support their spouse in attending, and that works for them.

I'm not sure the "either you're completely in or you're completely out" paradigm is all that useful. I'd rather see a person show up only half the time than not at all, and I'd rather be friendly with nonbelievers and work together toward common goals than have them leave entirely.

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I applaud your understanding that family is more important than ideals. A family relationship is far more enduring than a token faith. Unfortunately, my views on marriage are not universal and sadly, the woman I love values her own opinions over a relationship. Compromise brings more peace than ideology.

"He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me." - Matthew 10:37

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