17 Points To The True Church Of Christ

[letsjam]

There has been floating around for some time a list of "Seventeen Points of the True Church" that was compiled by a group of people studying the Bible as students (or servicemen, or scientist), based on the church Jesus established as described in the New Testament. According to the story (of which there are conflicting versions), when these people broke up and went on about their lives (after college, after the war, whatever), each of them searched diligently among the various religions for the "true church" according to the list of points. Many years later, they all discovered that each of them had independently found... Guess! Yes, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints! Oh, isn't that a heart-warming testimonial?

Here is the list.

17 Points of the True Church of Christ

Christ organized the Church (Eph 4:11-14)

The true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ (Eph 5:23)

The true church must have a foundation of Apostles and Prophets (Eph 2:19-20)

The true church must have the same organization as Christ's Church (Eph 4:11-14)

The true church must claim divine authority (Heb 5:4-10)

The true church must have no paid ministry (1 Cor 9:16-18; Acts 20:33-34; John 10:11-13)

The true church must baptise by immersion (Matt 3:13-16)

The true church must bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands (Acts 8:14-17)

The true church must practice divine healing (Mark 3:14-15)

The true church must teach that God and Jesus are seperate and distinct individuals (John 17:11; 20:17)

The true church must teach that God and Jesus have bodies of flesh and bone (Luke 23:36-39; Acts 1:9-11; Heb 1:1-3)

The officers must be called by God (Heb 4:4; Ex 28:1; 40:13-16)

The true church must claim revelation from God (Amos 3:7)

The true church must be a missionary church (Matt 28:19-20)

The true church must be a restored church (Acts 3:19-20)

The true church must practice baptism for the dead (1Cor 15:16&29)

"By their fruits ye shall know them." (Matt 7:20)

[Maureen]

I find these kind of lists so lame and why the "must"? If the "must" doesn't work out, does that take away from the spiritual intent? For example take:

The true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ (Eph 5:23)

So does that mean any other church that does not have Jesus Christ in their official church name must be a false church? Like this church:

When the church was organized in 1830 it was called the "Church of Christ". It was also referred to as the "Church of Latter Day Saints" to differentiate the church of this era from that of the New Testament, and was generally known by that name between 1834 and 1838. In April 1838, the full name was stated as "the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints", according to D&C 115:3-4. When the church was incorporated in 1851, the legal documents used the current standardized spelling and punctuation, capitalizing the first article, "The", and hyphenating "Latter-day": The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. There is some dispute as to whether or not this was the official name prior to 1851, since there was no standard spelling or punctuation in church publications prior to that time and legal documents of the pre-incorporated (but legally organized) church are not readily available. The church currently uses the word "The" as part of its official name, as opposed to a modifying article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_church...e_of_the_Church

So because the LDS church didn't start out with the name it has now until 1838, does that mean it was false for its first 8 years?

M.

[Snow]

There has been floating around for some time a list of "Seventeen Points of the True Church" that was compiled by a group of people studying the Bible as students (or servicemen, or scientist), based on the church Jesus established as described in the New Testament. According to the story (of which there are conflicting versions), when these people broke up and went on about their lives (after college, after the war, whatever), each of them searched diligently among the various religions for the "true church" according to the list of points. Many years later, they all discovered that each of them had independently found... Guess! Yes, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints! Oh, isn't that a heart-warming testimonial?

Here is the list.

First - I bet that's false. What people? What are their names? When?

There's better ways to spread the gospel than through deceitful stories.

The true church must practice baptism for the dead (1Cor 15:16&29)

This is an example of how screwy the list is. Corinthians doesn't say anything about the true Church practicing baptisms for the dead. No one reading those verses, let alone a group of people, would conclude such a thing. The verses don't even promote baptism for the dead as good or true or worthwhile. The point being made is not that baptisms for the dead are right, but rather that the dead will rise and look, even those guys doing baptisms for the dead know that.

[roman]

To make your list ligitimite-------what was the name of the church of the first century?

what name did Paul call the church---or Peter or James or any other NT writer?

Better yet since Jesus founded the chruch---what did he call it

[Dr T]

Hi Roman,

What did they call it?

Thanks

[roman]

Hey Dr. T

I really want to see if Letsjam will come back and try and defend his position before I answer you------------------------------so lets give Letsjam another day or two

Then I will post an answer if he or she doesn't------OKAY?

[mdb]

The true church must baptise by immersion (Matt 3:13-16)

FALSE.

The true church must teach that God and Jesus are seperate and distinct individuals (John 17:11; 20:17)

FALSE.

The true church must teach that God and Jesus have bodies of flesh and bone (Luke 23:36-39; Acts 1:9-11; Heb 1:1-3)

FALSE.

The true church must be a restored church (Acts 3:19-20)

RESTORED HOW?

The true church must practice baptism for the dead (1Cor 15:16&29)

FALSE.

[Dr T]

Sounds good Roman. Nice to meet you. :)

[Snow]

Hey Dr. T

I really want to see if Letsjam will come back and try and defend his position before I answer you------------------------------so lets give Letsjam another day or two

Then I will post an answer if he or she doesn't------OKAY?

Why play stupid games? If you know the name - if you have a point - say it, make it.

[letsjam]

<div class='quotemain'>

Hey Dr. T

I really want to see if Letsjam will come back and try and defend his position before I answer you------------------------------so lets give Letsjam another day or two

Then I will post an answer if he or she doesn't------OKAY?

Why play stupid games? If you know the name - if you have a point - say it, make it.

Hello guys,

Sorry I didn’t respond earlier – the notification about your replies didn’t come in time. Ok.

First of all, I’m female :)

Maureen,

Jesus said, “And how be it my church save it be called in my name? for if a church be called in Moses’ name then it be Moses’ church; or if it be called in the name of a man then it be the church of a man; but if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel. ”

The organization of the church was designated by revelation as “The Church of Jesus Christ,” to which the phrase “of Latter-day Saints” was added later. It was the church of Jesus Christ restored to earth in “the latter day,” and it was so designated. Again, the name of church revealed:

“for thus shall my church be called in the last days, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, scattered abroad in all the world.” (D&C 115:4)

As for you, Snow, I don’t know what people wrote this list and when wrote. I just read this story somewhere and reposted it for discussion.

“In an epistle addressed to the church at Corinth, Paul expounded the principles of the resurrection, whereby the bodies of the dead are to be bought forth from the graves – Christ the firstfruits, and afterward they that are Christ’s – and as proof that this doctrine of the resurrection was included in the Gospel as they had received it, the apostle asks: “Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?” (1 Cor. 15:29) These words are unambiguous, and the fact that they are presented without explanation or comment argues that the principle of baptism for the dead was understood among the people to whom the letter was addressed.” James Talmage.

Second, follow Peter’s account of what Christ preached to those spirits who had been disobedient:

For for this case was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Peter 4:6)

So what did Jesus preach? He had but one message: his gospel of faith, repentance, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins, and the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. Isn’t this plain? The gospel was preached to them, and they are to be “judged according to men in the flesh.” How can this be? How can a spirit be baptized by immersion for the remission of sins? This can only be done by proxy – by the living for the dead. When the gospel is accepted by the departed spirits, their hearts turn to their children upon the earth, who have the privilege of being baptized for their kindred dead so the may go and, as Peter states, “live according to God in the spirit.” Baptism of the living for the dead is performed in temples of the Lord erected to his name and at his command in his dispensation. If you knew the Doctrine and Scriptures better, you wouldn’t refer that “The verses don't even promote baptism for the dead as good or true or worthwhile.” How do you think is it good or bad when spirits [who were disobedient on this earth or didn’t know about the true Gospel of Christ or even the name of Christ] have a chance to be baptized in God’s true Church? Through the baptism of the dead, for their complete acceptance of the gospel, they may be “judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” So baptisms for the dead are right then.

Roman,

The Primitive Church that Jesus Christ established upon the earth was called the Church Of Jesus Christ. The Church Before the Birth of Christ – let me explain, it’s a fact that the word “church” doesn’t appear in English version of The Old Testament. From the time of Moses to the coming of Christ the people lived under the jurisdiction of the Law, between which and the Gospel, as embodied in the Church established by Jesus Christ, there is important distinction. Among the Nephites, however, who were sequestered on the western continent, the Church did exist as on organized body prior to the advent of the Lord Jesus Christ.

[roman]

Letsjam;

Thanks for the reply, but could you give some examples out of the Bible where Paul or Peter or anyother NT writer called it as you say? Could you even give an example of what Jesus called his church. I'm just looking for what you base your reasoning on.

roman

[Snow]

As for you, Snow, I don’t know what people wrote this list and when wrote. I just read this story somewhere and reposted it for discussion.

The list may be someone's idea about requirements of a true church but the story told about the list is almost certainly untrue. I'm not complaining that you posted it for discussion, I'm just poinitng out that whoever made up the story is dishonest.

[Jason]

So I'd like to discuss two points:

Christ organized the Church (Eph 4:11-14)

This is doubtful. Nothing Jesus said or did would indicate that he had plans to organize anything resembling any church existant today.

The true church must have no paid ministry (1 Cor 9:16-18; Acts 20:33-34; John 10:11-13)

Uh oh. Mormons are out.

[Maureen]

“for thus shall my church be called in the last days, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, scattered abroad in all the world.” (D&C 115:4)

Letsjam,

D&C 115 says: Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Far West, Missouri, April 26, 1838.

Eight years after "the church" actually began. Before that it went by Church of Christ and Church of Latter-day Saints. How do these names reflect the authenticity of the LDS church in these first eight years? Was the LDS church true from 1830 till this revelation or not? If it was, then your criteria with the name doesn't apply to either your church or even a non-LDS church that also uses the words "Jesus Christ" in its name. Judging a church by its name, is a poor indicator of truthfulness.

M.

[letsjam]

Roman,

Neither Jesus nor His Apostles had a certain name for the church. But it was always the Church of Christ.

Maureen, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints was known as The Church of Christ before the revelation that Joseph Smith received. Of Latter-Day Saints was added only after revelation. Also, this Church has a nickname as Mormons and Latter-Day Saints, but it doesn’t mean that it’s official name of Church. To separate the names of Primary Church that is known as The Church of Jesus Christ and restored Church. Church was true from 1830 till that revelation.

Snow, why do you think that this story is false? Lol are you seriously LDS? You should know then about the true Gospel of Christ, so this list only confirms that this Church is true.

Though where is any meaning to confirm anything for anybody if that anybody hasn’t a testimony? It’s wasting of time I think.

Jason, why do you think that Jesus hadn’t any plans to organize His Church in modern times? And why didn’t he do anything to organize the true Church?

I’m looking forward to your answer.

[Jason]

Sorry to answer for everybody, but I'm not very patient tonight.

Neither Jesus nor His Apostles had a certain name for the church. But it was always the Church of Christ.

Many early christians called the "church" by the simply name: "the way".

So I could produce a list that states that if a church isn't called: "the way" then it cannot be the true church.

Do you see why this list is flawed?

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints was known as The Church of Christ before the revelation that Joseph Smith received. Of Latter-Day Saints was added only after revelation. Also, this Church has a nickname as Mormons and Latter-Day Saints, but it doesn’t mean that it’s official name of Church. To separate the names of Primary Church that is known as The Church of Jesus Christ and restored Church. Church was true from 1830 till that revelation.

I think you're missing the point. If the "true" church must be called "The Church of Jesus Christ" then must that be the name formally accepted by the laws of the government, or just understood as such? There are so many different sects that are the "church of Christ" and the Catholics consider theirs to be the church of Jesus Christ, but don't use that as their official name out of respect for Jesus.

Just like you use Melchizedek instead of Jesus or Jehovah or Elohim for the name of your priesthood.

Get it?

Snow, why do you think that this story is false? Lol are you seriously LDS? You should know then about the true Gospel of Christ, so this list only confirms that this Church is true.

Though where is any meaning to confirm anything for anybody if that anybody hasn’t a testimony? It’s wasting of time I think.

Faith promoting rumor. Stories like this are passed out by every sect and denomination in America. The details are lacking, no dates, places, names, or anything else that would give a reasonable person the idea that it's anything but made up. Snow, being a respectable Theist, refuses to submit his intellect to such nonsense.

Jason, why do you think that Jesus hadn’t any plans to organize His Church in modern times? And why didn’t he do anything to organize the true Church?

I didn't say "in modern times". I implied that Jesus didn't organize a "church" at all. It was organized by his disciples after he died. Apparently long after he died. And those disciples organized vastly different churches, with different doctrines and rituals. It would appear, at least to a neutral observer, that Jesus created an idea, and attempted to bring enlightenment to a dark and supersitious world, and his disciples just never "got it".

[Maureen]

Maureen, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints was known as The Church of Christ before the revelation that Joseph Smith received. Of Latter-Day Saints was added only after revelation. Also, this Church has a nickname as Mormons and Latter-Day Saints, but it doesn’t mean that it’s official name of Church. To separate the names of Primary Church that is known as The Church of Jesus Christ and restored Church. Church was true from 1830 till that revelation.

May I remind you Letsjam, that it's your statement (you presented it).

The true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ.

You did not leave yourself any wiggle room. Your statement says must and Jesus Christ. You are either convinced that your whole statement has merit, or change your rigid idea about what the criteria must be.

M.

[Snow]

FALSE.

Double false

FALSE.

Double false

FALSE.

Double false

FALSE.

Double false.

While it is true that you use capital letters in your "false" post, I used the word "double" in my rebuttal of you very insightful and persuasive post.

Therefore I win.

[Snow]

Roman,

Neither Jesus nor His Apostles had a certain name for the church. But it was always the Church of Christ.

Historical reference please.

Snow, why do you think that this story is false? Lol are you seriously LDS? You should know then about the true Gospel of Christ, so this list only confirms that this Church is true.

Because it is so very preposterous. No rational adult would believe it to be true. The list is obviously not pulled out of the bible but rather can only be inferred from the bible if you already start with a belief in LDS theology.

[Snow]

Many early christians called the "church" by the simply name: "the way".

So I could produce a list that states that if a church isn't called: "the way" then it cannot be the true church.

Well of course you could. But unless someone agrees that the early Christians you are referring to could authoritatively speak for God, then you list means nothing to them.

[Jason]

<div class='quotemain'>

Many early christians called the "church" by the simply name: "the way".

So I could produce a list that states that if a church isn't called: "the way" then it cannot be the true church.

Well of course you could. But unless someone agrees that the early Christians you are referring to could authoritatively speak for God, then you list means nothing to them.

That would require many other things. Like what does authority mean to early christians. What does it mean to the people discussing the issue. Whether any Christians, early or modern, speak authoritatively for god. Then whether or not Christianity is the product of god. Then whether god as understood by christianity exists at all.

Where do we begin?

[Snow]

That would require many other things. Like what does authority mean to early christians. What does it mean to the people discussing the issue. Whether any Christians, early or modern, speak authoritatively for god. Then whether or not Christianity is the product of god. Then whether god as understood by christianity exists at all.

Where do we begin?

I think the point is that most people don't think that early Christian practices in the 2nd and 3rd century set the standard for what we think and practice today. I'd futher say that no more that 3-4% of Christians have any significant understanding of "proto-Christianity."

[roman]

Roman,

Neither Jesus nor His Apostles had a certain name for the church. But it was always the Church of Christ.

Letsjam;

Thanks for the unqualified answer. I asked for scriptual references on you thought that the true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ in it---and you gave none. Thats because your postion cannot be true in any sence or form or fashion.

Jason is write about the early believers being called ---"the way" but as time went on they were called many other things in scripture---none bearing the name of Jesus Christ---to make it an officail--true church in the sence you put forth. They were called =======The family of God ----the church of God-------the assemblies of God----Believers----brethern------ the body of Christ, and the list goes on.

As Mureen said---it was you who put the topic in a corner when you used the word ---MUST . You have an undefencable postion---but still its good to kick things around with you.

roman

[Snow]

Neither Jesus nor His Apostles had a certain name for the church. But it was always the Church of Christ.

That's a claim you can neither prove nor offer any significant evidence for.

[Maureen]

<div class='quotemain'>

Neither Jesus nor His Apostles had a certain name for the church. But it was always the Church of Christ.

That's a claim you can neither prove nor offer any significant evidence for.

Just to clarify Snow, but that was Letsjam's claim and not roman's.

M.