17 Points To The True Church Of Christ


letsjam
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Neither Jesus nor His Apostles had a certain name for the church. But it was always the Church of Christ.

That's a claim you can neither prove nor offer any significant evidence for.

Just to clarify Snow, but that was Letsjam's claim and not roman's.

M.

Whoops.

Sorry Roman. I got confused on the quotes.

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lol guys, don't you think your replies are a bit daunting? stop sending that, i just reposted this info. i'm sorry that you don't understand that i'm not the author of it.

We do understand that you are NOT the author of the list, but you still presented it, I'm assuming, in your opinion as "Oh, isn't that a heart-warming testimonial?"

Well some of us disagree and think it's a silly list. There are more intelligent ways in presenting something you think has merit.

M.

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letsjam;

Yes we do understand that your not the author----BUT you posted it and defended it.

I also understand that you didn't research a bit of it to see if any of it was true, in any fashion of forum. Nope you saw it and thought----oboy this looks good. So you posted and found that lds and non lds thought is was just plain silly in more ways that a person can count

Next time I suggest you know what your posting---before you do!

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letsjam;

Yes we do understand that your not the author----BUT you posted it and defended it.

I also understand that you didn't research a bit of it to see if any of it was true, in any fashion of forum. Nope you saw it and thought----oboy this looks good. So you posted and found that lds and non lds thought is was just plain silly in more ways that a person can count

Next time I suggest you know what your posting---before you do!

I, on the other hand, think it's just dandy that he posts whatever he wants in order to stimulate discussion. People have opinions or want input to help form opinions. That's what a message board is for. We all post things that turn out to be goofy or in error. Some more than others. Big deal, you just have to deal with the heat if you post something bogus.

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There has been floating around for some time a list of "Seventeen Points of the True Church" that was compiled by a group of people studying the Bible as students (or servicemen, or scientist), based on the church Jesus established as described in the New Testament. According to the story (of which there are conflicting versions), when these people broke up and went on about their lives (after college, after the war, whatever), each of them searched diligently among the various religions for the "true church" according to the list of points. Many years later, they all discovered that each of them had independently found... Guess! Yes, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints! Oh, isn't that a heart-warming testimonial?

Even though I'm responding to post #1, I read through about 20 responses. I concur that this list is a little too neat to be happenstance. There were other groups of Bible students in the mid to late nineteenth century that formed what became the Seventh Day Adventists, the Jehovah's Witnesses, and, a bit later, the Pentecostals. My own church's list include 16 items, btw. Now to the list...

17 Points of the True Church of Christ

We immediately know this is false because the true church has 16 fundamentals, not 17 points (see ag.org under the Beliefs section). BTW, for those who lack discernment, please mentally picture my tongue firmly implanted in my cheek!

Christ organized the Church (Eph 4:11-14)

While Christ is central to the church, He is the one worshiped, not the organizer of the worship. Such details are usually left to his servants to take care of.

The true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ (Eph 5:23)

Call me liberal, but most churches that house the roughly 2 billion Christians in the world "bear the name of Jesus Christ." I'm not aware that any New Testament Church had Jesus Christ in it's name. Most were called by the name of the city: Church in Ephesus, etc.

The true church must have a foundation of Apostles and Prophets (Eph 2:19-20)

Any church that makes use of the Bible as its central Scriptures could claim to be founded upon what is said by the apostles and prophets.

The true church must have the same organization as Christ's Church (Eph 4:11-14)

Most Christian churches have the roles (gifts) detailed in this passage. Some might use different names. For example, The Message lists pastor-teacher as one of the positions. I suppose a bishop would qualify, even if the actual title differs slightly.

The true church must claim divine authority (Heb 5:4-10)

Again, most Christian churches claim authority from God.

The true church must have no paid ministry (1 Cor 9:16-18; Acts 20:33-34; John 10:11-13)

You might want to reference previous strings on this topic. However, it is pretty clear that even in the apostolic age church workers were supported. A workman was due his pay. In particular, Paul went to great lengths to defend and explain the fact that he was NOT paid--indirectly suggesting that his refusal to be supported was UNusual.

The true church must baptise by immersion (Matt 3:13-16)

I'll let the sprinklers and pourers defend themselves, but I (a dunker) often wonder how essential the form is to the ordinance. Salvation is by grace, through faith. The baptism is a testimony to the salvation. So, as long as the story gets told, has God's purpose not been fulfilled?

The true church must bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands (Acts 8:14-17)

The laying on of hands is not mentioned nearly as often speaking in other tongues. :sparklygrin:

The true church must practice divine healing (Mark 3:14-15)

IMHO, yes, a 'full gospel' church ought to do as Christ did and heal the sick.

The true church must teach that God and Jesus are seperate and distinct individuals (John 17:11; 20:17)

And most Christian churches do. The Trinity explains that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct persons, though one essential God. Are you picking on Oneness Pentecostals here?

The true church must teach that God and Jesus have bodies of flesh and bone (Luke 23:36-39; Acts 1:9-11; Heb 1:1-3)

This is the stinker in the list. There are very few Christian fellowships outside of the LDS that teach this. The notion that this group of students/scientists would come upon this as an essential is a bit hard to believe. Especially since other such Bible study groups did NOT come up with this one.

The officers must be called by God (Heb 4:4; Ex 28:1; 40:13-16)

Is there any religion--especially any Christian church--that does not claim this?

The true church must claim revelation from God (Amos 3:7)

And most do--though not quite to the extent that the LDS Church does.

The true church must be a missionary church (Matt 28:19-20)

AMEN. But again, most are--some more than others. Now, to tweek this list a bit. The COJCLDS is made up roughly 50% from the 'home country' and 50% from other lands. Not a bad statistic. However, my own fellowship is about 10% American, and 90% other lands. Does that make my group more missionary than yours???

My point is not really to make a comparison, but to point out what everyone else has...this seemingly faith-affirming article ends up looking pretty silly when the conversation is not 100% in-house.

The true church must be a restored church (Acts 3:19-20)

Perhaps the NT Church was the beginning of that restoration?

The true church must practice baptism for the dead (1Cor 15:16&29)

WOW. This group really came up with this as an essential??? This one vague reference about an undefined practice that one church was doing becomes an essential ordinance--one making a top-17 list? I'm beginning to wonder about the credentials of this group.

Mind you. I'm not debating the ordinance here. Just questioning how a group of students/scientists would come to decide that this was an essential practice of any true church--again, based on a single, rather cryptic passage.

"By their fruits ye shall know them." (Matt 7:20)

Excellent standard. Good fruits = good church, bad fruits = bad churches. I'm not sure you could narrow your choices down to one, based on this, however.

Bottom-line: The factors that point specifically to the Mormon Church are not teachings that a group of non-LDS 'objective' students could be expected to come up with. Those points that are more general, would not necessarily lead one exclusively to the LDS faith. Ergo, the list is largely useless, except for those willing to just believe it and be affirmed.

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Christ organized the Church (Eph 4:11-14)

While Christ is central to the church, He is the one worshiped, not the organizer of the worship. Such details are usually left to his servants to take care of.

Can you please provide references that Christ did not organize Christian worship?

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Can you please provide references that Christ did not organize Christian worship?

A common text demonstrating the "liturgy" of the early church is Acts 2:42-47:

They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching, to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their posessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sinere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

Note two points: a focus on the Apostles' teachings. Second, Christ had already ascended to the Father when this format developed.

Another is Colossians 3:16-17:

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and adnmonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

Again, this letter was written by an apostle, as instructions on how to carry out Christian worship.

Was Jesus behind these practices? I'm sure he was. However, I do not know of any examples in the gospels where Jesus sets out a format for worship. The closest we get may be the Lord's Prayer and the Great Commission--but these relate more to personal prayer, and to church outreach--not corporate worship.

So, I guess my bottom-line answer is that I do not see any biblical accounts of Jesus setting a pattern or model for corporate worship. On the other hand, the apostles do seem to have led these developments.

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Can you please provide references that Christ did not organize Christian worship?

A common text demonstrating the "liturgy" of the early church is Acts 2:42-47:

They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching, to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their posessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sinere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

Note two points: a focus on the Apostles' teachings. Second, Christ had already ascended to the Father when this format developed.

Another is Colossians 3:16-17:

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and adnmonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

Again, this letter was written by an apostle, as instructions on how to carry out Christian worship.

Was Jesus behind these practices? I'm sure he was. However, I do not know of any examples in the gospels where Jesus sets out a format for worship. The closest we get may be the Lord's Prayer and the Great Commission--but these relate more to personal prayer, and to church outreach--not corporate worship.

So, I guess my bottom-line answer is that I do not see any biblical accounts of Jesus setting a pattern or model for corporate worship. On the other hand, the apostles do seem to have led these developments.

Hey chap,

Bradshaw, a Roman Catholic theologian, agrees with you. Im sure I've posted this quote before, but just by way of reinforcement:

"Jesus apparently did not leave his followers with a fixed set of doctrines but rather with an experience that changed their lives, which they then tried to articulate in their own ways. As a result, what we find in the New Testament is not one standard theology of baptism or a systematized explanation of what it means to become a Christian, but a variety of ways of speaking about that experience, quite different images and metaphors being employed by different writers in their attempts to communicate it to others." (Early Christian Worship, 2.)

By the way, this text lacks any imprimatur, or a Nihil Obstat , and Im sure you can imagine why.

;)

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Since we're talking about lists of attributes to the true church, I thought I might post a similar list. This one was published in the Millennial Star in Liverpool, England by Elder Edwin F. Parry and was origninally called Tract No. 3.

Marks of the True Church of Christ

1: They will obey, and teach the ordinances that Christ has said must be obeyed. Those ordinances are:

First, faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Second, repentance.

Third, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins.

Fourth, laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

2: They will teach the neccessity of obeying all of the Lord's commandmets.

3: The signs or blessings promised the believers will follow them.

4: They will be united, and will love one another.

5: They will be organized into a Church after the pattern mentioned in the scriptures.

6: They will have apostles and prophets at their head, who will have power, and authority to act in Christ's name.

7: They will be persecuted as long as wickedness reigns in the Earth.

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So, I guess my bottom-line answer is that I do not see any biblical accounts of Jesus setting a pattern or model for corporate worship. On the other hand, the apostles do seem to have led these developments.

Agreed - but not finding it in the writings on people who probably weren't even eyewitnesses to Christ is a different matter than Christ did not organizing Christian worship.

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Agreed - but not finding it in the writings on people who probably weren't even eyewitnesses to Christ is a different matter than Christ did not organizing Christian worship.

I certainly cannot say with absolute certainty that Jesus did not organize Christian worship. However, the gospel accounts are the best accounts we have, and they offer no indication that he did.

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Agreed - but not finding it in the writings on people who probably weren't even eyewitnesses to Christ is a different matter than Christ did not organizing Christian worship.

I certainly cannot say with absolute certainty that Jesus did not organize Christian worship. However, the gospel accounts are the best accounts we have, and they offer no indication that he did.

That is your opinion. Not mine. :rolleyes:

(edit: if by "gospel accounts" you're referring to the testimonies of 4 people whose writings are now in the "Holy Bible")

And if you want to know what I know, I say you should ask Him, and it might help if you ask Him ALL that He has said. :)

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That is your opinion. Not mine. :rolleyes: if by "gospel accounts" you're referring to the testimonies of 4 people whose writings are now in the "Holy Bible") And if you want to know what I know, I say you should ask Him, and it might help if you ask Him ALL that He has said. :)

Ray, keep in mind the original question: Did Jesus organize how Christians should worship?

I suppose you could pray and ask God for a testimony or confirmation of what your best guess is. However, the Scriptures tell us about Jesus' life on earth. They ought to be our first source of information about such questions.

Do you really disagree??? :o

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Ray, keep in mind the original question: Did Jesus organize how Christians should worship?

He did give examples and demonstrated "the Way". He also told us that one day his "kingdom" would be established on earth as it is in heaven. Perhaps we should ask how such a kingdom would be organized and authorized? Every kingdom of the ancient world had an organization and authorization - most likely G-d is not the only individual that acts with authority within his kingdom. Are the churches of today more like a kingdom or the current popular organizational structure based on a democracy and the authority of the majority?

An interesting side note: The "first born" of the kingdom were the essence of the organization and authority - When the "first born" of Egypt was lost in the days of Moses it ended that dynasty's kingdom or authority to rule.

The Traveler

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The story, which was later made in to a Novel, was told by Floyd Weston. However he stated during the telling of the story that he could not remember exactly how many points there were, only an approximation of 17. The original list of points he had was apparently long gone and he only cited a couple of the points in his talk. The list of the 17 points appears to have been made by someone else to coincide with the talk and was not necessarily based on the original list let alone the original references.

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That is your opinion. Not mine. :rolleyes: if by "gospel accounts" you're referring to the testimonies of 4 people whose writings are now in the "Holy Bible") And if you want to know what I know, I say you should ask Him, and it might help if you ask Him ALL that He has said. :)

Ray, keep in mind the original question: Did Jesus organize how Christians should worship?

I suppose you could pray and ask God for a testimony or confirmation of what your best guess is. However, the Scriptures tell us about Jesus' life on earth. They ought to be our first source of information about such questions.

Do you really disagree??? :o

Ray would absolutely disagree. He believes that his prime and ultimately only source of information is God himself. Ray holds that each and everything he knows, he knows because God has revealed it to him.

That includes knowing his name and the answer to the question What is 2 + 2. So for Ray, reading the Bible is almost an afterthougt as his knowledge comes from God, not some book.

Go figure.

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That is your opinion. Not mine. :rolleyes: if by "gospel accounts" you're referring to the testimonies of 4 people whose writings are now in the "Holy Bible") And if you want to know what I know, I say you should ask Him, and it might help if you ask Him ALL that He has said. :)

Ray, keep in mind the original question: Did Jesus organize how Christians should worship?

I suppose you could pray and ask God for a testimony or confirmation of what your best guess is. However, the Scriptures tell us about Jesus' life on earth. They ought to be our first source of information about such questions.

Do you really disagree??? :o

Ray would absolutely disagree. He believes that his prime and ultimately only source of information is God himself. Ray holds that each and everything he knows, he knows because God has revealed it to him.

That includes knowing his name and the answer to the question What is 2 + 2. So for Ray, reading the Bible is almost an afterthougt as his knowledge comes from God, not some book.

Go figure.

What Snow said is absolutely true. I know what is true when God gives me His assurance, not by trusting what I read in some books.

So my first source for information about God, is God, who has said and continues to say a LOT more than those writers did while they wrote what they wrote in their books.

And if that still doesn't help you to really see what I am saying, try these words:

The "book" of Matthew in the Holy Bible is a testimony of what Matthew said was true.

And the "book" of Mark in the Holy Bible is a testimony of what Mark said was true.

And the "book" of Luke in the Holy Bible is a testimony of what Luke said was true.

And the "book" of John in the Holy Bible is a testimony of what John said was true.

And I know God inspired them so they could know what was true by God telling me they told the truth.

Do you want to know what else I know???

Ask God. I'm learning all that is true from Him. :)

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That is your opinion. Not mine. :rolleyes: if by "gospel accounts" you're referring to the testimonies of 4 people whose writings are now in the "Holy Bible") And if you want to know what I know, I say you should ask Him, and it might help if you ask Him ALL that He has said. :)

Ray, keep in mind the original question: Did Jesus organize how Christians should worship?

I suppose you could pray and ask God for a testimony or confirmation of what your best guess is. However, the Scriptures tell us about Jesus' life on earth. They ought to be our first source of information about such questions.

Do you really disagree??? :o

Ray would absolutely disagree. He believes that his prime and ultimately only source of information is God himself. Ray holds that each and everything he knows, he knows because God has revealed it to him.

That includes knowing his name and the answer to the question What is 2 + 2. So for Ray, reading the Bible is almost an afterthougt as his knowledge comes from God, not some book.

Go figure.

What Snow said is absolutely true. I know what is true when God gives me His assurance, not by trusting what I read in some books.

So my first source for information about God, is God, who has said and continues to say a LOT more than those writers did while they wrote what they wrote in their books.

And if that still doesn't help you to really see what I am saying, try these words:

The "book" of Matthew in the Holy Bible is a testimony of what Matthew said was true.

And the "book" of Mark in the Holy Bible is a testimony of what Mark said was true.

And the "book" of Luke in the Holy Bible is a testimony of what Luke said was true.

And the "book" of John in the Holy Bible is a testimony of what John said was true.

And I know God inspired them so they could know what was true by God telling me they told the truth.

Do you want to know what else I know???

Ask God. I'm learning all that is true from Him. :)

Ray,

Amen... I don't think that I could say something better like that myself. Scriptures mean nothing in themselves, without the spirit who says that they are true. As you have said, the book of Mark is true to what he wrote and what he knew to be true. One cannot just base their religion off of just books...but to have inspiration and guidance of the Spirit. From God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost..... Modern Day revelation and those that he has chosen to be his servents and apostles! The same EXACT organization that existed in the primitive church.

The only reason why I read them is 1) they are worth reading 2) the Prophets have said to read them 3) They have truth. 4) I find myself living off of the principles that they teach which I know are true, through praying to my father in heaven to know if that is what I need to be doing.

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What Snow said is absolutely true. I know what is true when God gives me His assurance, not by trusting what I read in some books.

So my first source for information about God, is God, who has said and continues to say a LOT more than those writers did while they wrote what they wrote in their books.

And if that still doesn't help you to really see what I am saying, try these words:

The "book" of Matthew in the Holy Bible is a testimony of what Matthew said was true.

And the "book" of Mark in the Holy Bible is a testimony of what Mark said was true.

And the "book" of Luke in the Holy Bible is a testimony of what Luke said was true.

And the "book" of John in the Holy Bible is a testimony of what John said was true.

And I know God inspired them so they could know what was true by God telling me they told the truth.

Do you want to know what else I know???

Ask God. I'm learning all that is true from Him. :)

What did God tell you about Mark 16:8-20 and John 7:53–8:11... that (you know that they are) "true by God telling (you) the truth?

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What Snow said is absolutely true. I know what is true when God gives me His assurance, not by trusting what I read in some books. So my first source for information about God, is God, who has said and continues to say a LOT more than those writers did while they wrote what they wrote in their books.

WOW! Snow got Ray--he didn't exaggerate or skew--he got it right. In the words of our Christian fundamentalist bretheren, Ray is a 'charismaniac.' By that, they would contend that he is given to emotions, to whims, to personal opinion, all blanketed with 'The Spirit led me this way.'

The person of God needs to be open to what the Spirit may say, because God's directions are sometimes 'outrageous.' On the other hand, if there is a scriptural teaching that is already well-understood, sound doctrine trumps my current inclination.

As an example: Boy wants to marry girl. Girl is not a Christian. However, she is gorgeous, comes from a solid, well-established family, and deeply loves boy. Bishop, will you pray with me? I'm seeking God's will.

We don't need to pray, responds the bishop. God has clearly ordered us not to be yoked together with unbelievers. He cites the appropriate Scripture references.

Bishop, I'm shocked and disappointed that you won't pray with me on this. I'll have to pray myself. A week later, boy has received a confirmation in his spirit (a burning in the bosom, if you will) that God wants him to marry this girl, and quickly!

Bishop suspects that there was another 'burning' that's driving this decision. Is he right?

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