NonMember & Member Marriage :: Ultimatum


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My wife and I have only been married for about 15 months. We've been a couple for about 2.5 years. We've known each other for about 5 years.

I am not a member. When we started dating, my wife was partially inactive, but still reasonably within church standards as far as the way she lives. By this time, I had stopped drinking, doing drugs, and going to parties. At the time I had a stronger belief in Christianity than I do now.

Before we got married, we had an argument and a 24 hour breakup. She liked that I was faithful, but didn't like that I wasn't LDS. She said she needed a temple marriage, so she left. The next day, she came back and said she couldn't leave. After that, I prayed and saw no harm in investigating the church.

I investigated the church for several months and even asked to join, but I wasn't permitted to due to my previous felony. I was told I had to wait until I was off probation (in 2015). I continued to investigate and go to church for awhile after that regardless. I wasn't particularly upset about being held back. Figured I did it to myself.

However, in the last few months, I've learned some things about the church and about people as a whole that have ended my interest in joining. I've stopped going to church with my wife regularly since then. I still go sometimes, but she knows I don't like it and I know she'd be upset if we didn't go.

Last week, she burst into tears after a[nother] argument about church. She said "I'll never get to go to the temple" between sobs. I told her, "Hannah, I'd love to live with you eternally, but I'm not conviced that the temple is the only way.

After that, I presented an ultimatum. I asked her to decide whether or not she could accept our religious differences. Obviously, if she can't, that's a deal breaker. It's almost Sunday again (our usual fighting day) and I don't know what's going to happen. I doubt that she will choose me over something so well-rooted within her.

If anyone has any advice, please let me know. I'm prepared for any answer of hers, but I won't live the rest of my life being pushed into a religion I don't believe in and I doubt that she will forget about her desire to be sealed. We have no kids, but they could be LDS. I don't have a problem with that.

Any ideas other than the obvious?

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I doubt that she will choose me over something so well-rooted within her.

I think that's one of the problems. She shouldn't have to choose between you and the Church and you shouldn't expect her to do so. By the other hand, she shouldn't threaten you about it. I think both of you need to reach a compromise and a mutual respect about your religious differences. Are you guys receiving counseling? Both of you can talk with the Bishop and get some counseling through LDS services or if you choose, any other non-LDS therapist.

If you would like to share your concerns about the Church (or have any questions) you can also do it here and I will be glad to reply if I know the answer. :)

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My first question is what are you hung up on concerning the church has ended your interest in joining?

My second question is why would you want your children raised in a church you don't believe in?

My last point is just an observation, I can understand being at the breaking point over religious differences. But telling her you think there is another way to have an eternal family outside of the temple is a pretty big deal. The sealing is the highest ordinance we will do in this life. There is nothing more sacred to a Latter-day Saint. By telling her you have a loophole somewhere is almost insulting, from an LDS point of view. Especially if you say you'll raise your children in the church. Honestly I think she's probably sorting through batches of mixed feelings and mixed signals. You give her an ultimatum but you've thrown in small scraps of hope too. I think she's confused and she thinks you're confused as well. I think you might be too, just going by what you've said.

If you force her to choose tomorrow your marriage will likely end. I can tell your frustrated but I'd like to get more info if you'd be willing.

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Thank you both for all your assistance so far. To set the record straight, "ultimatum" is a pretty strong word. The verbage I used was "You need to decide whether or not you can be married to someone who is not going to the temple." The temple is really the only part that makes this a marriage-threatening situation.

Suzie:

You're right. It would be best if we could agree to disagree on religion... and I think we could do that, but her agreeing to disagree would mean accepting that she's not going to the temple with her husband. We both talked to the bishop. He's a nice guy. He told me "I noticed Hannah is really happy when you're here together" and then I said, "The problem is, I'm not happy when I'm here." That's when i decided to come clean with her about deciding not to join for sure.

Spartan:

1st Answer: Not to be rude, but I'd rather not discuss too much about this. I'm not going to change any of your opinions and my opinions cannot be changed at this time.

2nd Answer: The LDS church has many good, supportive, positive qualities that I think are lacking from today's youth. If a person is raised in the LDS church, I think they're well off. My problem is simply my unceasing doubts.

3rd Answer: That sensitivity to the temple is exaclty why I'm in this situation. If she was baptist and I was catholic, it wouldn't be as big a deal. But because I'm not LDS and I won't go to the temple, she would have to sacrifice that to stay with me.

Side note: If my wife and I are not sealed to each other, could our children be sealed to her?

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Side note: If my wife and I are not sealed to each other, could our children be sealed to her?

No they can not. If you and your wife aren't sealed, your children can't be either. Not to only one parent.

And if you don't want to go into your issues with the church then I respect that. As far as raising kids in the church ... there was an article recently in Newsweek talking about how the Mormon church produces "winners" in society today. You aren't the first person I've heard say they would raise their kids in the church even though they don't want to be members themselves. But being LDS isn't a Sunday activity. It's a lifestyle. It's that lifestyle that produces the qualities in a person that make them successful. Your kids would wonder why they are being raised in the church and living a certain lifestyle that you aren't. They will follow your example (not to say you would be a bad example by not being LDS) but there would be a conflict for them.

I sincerely hope you and your wife work things out. I know anyone here will be more than happy to answer any more questions you have. Hope I was able to help.

EDIT: I'm a newish convert to the church myself, you can PM me if you'd like if you want to discuss anything privately. I converted about a year and a half ago and I may have some insight or perspective on some things. If not, no pressure. Just throwin it out there.

Edited by Spartan117
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Guest mormonmusic
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My thoughts:

1. It's great you don't have children. That makes a possible separation MUCH easier.

2. You WILL find your wife and others approaching you about the Church when you are a "part-member" family, as we call families in your situation. It will probably go in spurts here and there. Occasional missionary visits, or if you move into a new Ward and no one knows your situation, or occasionally when a new leader takes a position in the Ward. Things like that.

3. There are part-member couples who have been happy. I've found it's hard on at least one of them however. It can be a problem when an active member decides s/he doesn't want to go to Church anymore, so the problem also exists with mem/nonmem partnerships.

4. I also agree that the Church is a good place to raise youth. Those programs are like Gold to the members and the Church most of the time, and get the necessary resources.

In terms of a resolution, I don't know....just sharing what I have observed over a couple decades in the Church.

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"I'll never get to go to the temple"

It is possible to have a happy marriage with a non-member spouse.

She would have to put off her dream/desire for a Temple marriage, but not the going to the Temple. My husband is not LDS, our son and I are.

He totally supports us. He goes to all the family baptisms, many of the social events, participates/helps with the Boy Scout program.

My son and I go to the Temple regularly.

He will be going on a mission in about a year.

My husband has/ lives by, most of the LDS standards. He is just not interested in joining.

There are several member/non-member couples in our small ward.

My husband has never been pressured to join...not even by my family, all of whom are LDS.

I do not have any advice, just sharing my experiences.

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I'm the last person to offer advice, so I'll just ask a couple of question.

I investigated the church for several months and even asked to join, but I wasn't permitted to due to my previous felony. I was told I had to wait until I was off probation (in 2015). I continued to investigate and go to church for awhile after that regardless. I wasn't particularly upset about being held back. Figured I did it to myself.

If it was possible for you to join the church today, would you?

However, in the last few months, I've learned some things about the church and about people as a whole that have ended my interest in joining. I've stopped going to church with my wife regularly since then. I still go sometimes, but she knows I don't like it and I know she'd be upset if we didn't go.

Feel free to ask any questions here. We're pretty good about clearing up the why's and how's of church history and other aspects of the church.

Last week, she burst into tears after a[nother] argument about church. She said "I'll never get to go to the temple" between sobs. I told her, "Hannah, I'd love to live with you eternally, but I'm not conviced that the temple is the only way.

First, if she really wanted a temple marriage, she should've dated an active LDS member. It's not fair to expect you to change for her after you are married. Essentially, she changed her rules and expectations of happiness in your marriage.

If anyone has any advice, please let me know. I'm prepared for any answer of hers, but I won't live the rest of my life being pushed into a religion I don't believe in and I doubt that she will forget about her desire to be sealed. We have no kids, but they could be LDS. I don't have a problem with that.

Any ideas other than the obvious?

It's kinda hard to be pushed into a religion that can't accept you (yet).

The only thing I can think of, is for you to dig deep and ask yourself if you would join the church if you weren't on probation.

If the answer is yes, you would... then will she wait for you?

If the answer is no, then you both have decisions to make.

If you're not really sure because of some other aspects of what you said you've learned, please ask here. We're pretty good about these things. Ask your wife for time for you to sort through these things for yourself.

Well, that's about all I got.

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No. Because that can be done later. My parents were not married in the Temple. Yet, my sister and I were sealed to them, later, when we were adults. My sister while they were alive; I was sealed to them after their deaths.

It sounds complicated, & I think I have it right {others will set me right, if I am mistaken ;) } but...

1) let's say my husband dies before me. I can, by proxy, baptize him...then have our son sealed to us.

2) we both are dead, our son can do the work, and be sealed to us.

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Skippy:

1.) No. If I had joined when I had asked to, I may not have seen the things that currently bar me from joining, but that time has passed.

2.) Thank you, but I don't want to turn this thread into a religious debate.

3.) I think you're right. We had talked about it before we got married and she did end up leaving for a day, but she also came back. Perhaps I gave her too much hope that I would join.

4.) I agree, but I would be able to wait if I still had an interest in joining.

All in all, I'd say we both had decisions to make. I've made mine. I'm not joining (unless I miraculously change my mind in the future, which is a possibility). Now I guess it's time for her to decide if she can live without being sealed to her earthly family.

TrueGrits:

That might be the saving grace. People in my family die at 60. People in my wife's die at 90. If I turned out to be wrong, I would accept her baptism of me beyond the grave. That being said, it's likely that I will die before her, but there's still a chance something could go wrong and she could go before me. I won't allow myself to persuade her to stay with me based on that loop hole. I just can't assume the risk that I AM wrong and she DOES die before me. I would just as soon have her marry a nice mormon boy.

Thank you everyone for your help. Today might be the day.

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Here's a non-LDS take: This may be completely off the wall...it just came to me. If your spiritual issues are with the church, and not with God himself, perhaps it would be helpful for you two to pray together? It would not have to be about the church, perhaps just blessings over your household, or guidance on loving each other?

Obviously, if you do not have faith in God at all, this will make no sense. However, if you are open to the Almighty, and just unsure about the church, then the old axiom may well hold true---the family that prays together stays together.

You are not be selfish or unreasonable with your spouse. You did not trick her into marrying you. She knew what she was entering into. Others on this site are in the same situation. I doubt that the church would approve her leaving you simply so she could remarry someone else in the temple.

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The deal breaker is you. You have jumped around on your religious beliefs. She entered the relationship believing you were open minded regarding religion. Now you have become uncompromising and rigid. Perhaps you need to review your own thoughts and views. She seems like a nice person and you are willing to throw away a nice relationship over jumping back and forth on religious beliefs.

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After that, I presented an ultimatum. I asked her to decide whether or not she could accept our religious differences.

Hopefully you were a little more specific than that; because each of you probably has different ideas about what it means to "accept our religious differences".

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There comes a time in each of our lives when we have to realize that we are each responsible for our own salvation. Your wife needs to take control of hers. Even though any children she has cannot be sealed to her because you are not a member she can do her own work and then live the very best life she can ... if she has fatih in the Savior she will have those children for eternity ... Heavenly Father is a loving Father and will not take them from her ... it will be handled.

We have a young sister in our ward in the same situation ... she joined after she and her inactive husband married ... she embraced the gospel with her whole heart and would love nothing more than for her husband to get it together and take her and their 2 boys to the temple ... she is finally realizing that if those children are to remain hers she needs to do what she needs to do and let him work out his own salvation. Kind of harsh I guess but when it comes down to it the atonement is applied one person at a time and we have no time to waste.

Encourage your wife to do her own temple work and to move forward in faith ... life is full of choices ... it is how we handle those choices that gets us where we need to go.

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The deal breaker is you. You have jumped around on your religious beliefs. She entered the relationship believing you were open minded regarding religion. Now you have become uncompromising and rigid. Perhaps you need to review your own thoughts and views. She seems like a nice person and you are willing to throw away a nice relationship over jumping back and forth on religious beliefs.

I'm not sure this is a fair assessment. Granted, we only have the OP to go by. However, the girl friend stayed in the relationship, even though the OP had demonstrated he was not at all firmly commited to the LDS faith. His agreement to investigate the church is tenuous at best. It was under this very minimal commitment of his that she agreed to commit to him "for better or worse."

So he does his investigation, is initially interested, and pursues membership, but ultimately decides against it. This hardly sounds like "jump around" religiously. It's not at all unusual to "investigate" important matters, initially lean towards buy-in, but then ultimately pulling out. We do this with houses, cars, time shares...why would this be unusual with the most important aspect of life, religion?

Being open while investigating is not the same as promising to always and forever remaining open. Once the investigation is done, it's time to get off the fence. Commit, or move on. Right or wrong, the OP has made his call. His wife had to know this was a possiblity. She had threatened to leave him once, and he was prepared to let her. This speaks to his integrity. He was not going to pretend, to win her over.

Thus, in my humble, non-LDS view, the deal breaker may well be the wife, who may go far beyond what her religion recommends or requires, in her persuit of temple marriage. In fact, as I suggested earlier, she may well violate her religion's counsel in order to reach a higher place in it. That can hardly be the spouse's fault.

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The deal breaker is you. You have jumped around on your religious beliefs. She entered the relationship believing you were open minded regarding religion. Now you have become uncompromising and rigid. Perhaps you need to review your own thoughts and views. She seems like a nice person and you are willing to throw away a nice relationship over jumping back and forth on religious beliefs.

Being open minded about religion doesn't mean he is expected to join. It seems to me she's throwing a fist at the fact that he is not interested in joining and is threatening to leave if he doesn't.

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Just a status update if anyone's still interested. We've agreed to stay together for "a while" longer. I still feel like we're in the same situation, but it's possible that it will take time for her to accept this as a lifestyle. I'd like it if she was more firm on her commitment to stay with me, but I guess I'll take what I can get.

The deal breaker is you. You have jumped around on your religious beliefs. She entered the relationship believing you were open minded regarding religion. Now you have become uncompromising and rigid. Perhaps you need to review your own thoughts and views. She seems like a nice person and you are willing to throw away a nice relationship over jumping back and forth on religious beliefs.

In a sense you're right. A little cruel, given I did my best to fully disclose my intentions, but there are aspects of what you say that are the issue. I was raised christian and the LDS church didn't seem like such a stretch to me before. However, when I decided not to believe in the LDS brand of faith, some of my faith in the bible itself diminished as well.

Sometimes I wonder if people just believe what they're told or what they want to believe. This is a concern that I don't know how to cure. It's not that I mean to flip flop. I just don't know what to believe.

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Sometimes I wonder if people just believe what they're told or what they want to believe. This is a concern that I don't know how to cure. It's not that I mean to flip flop. I just don't know what to believe.

I am happy for you that you two made it through the weekend and are sticking it out, even if just for now. Good for you. I really mean that.

I know you said before you don't want to go into details about what it is about the LDS that has you hung up about joining or now (from what you said) questioning the Bible in general, so please feel free to ignore me ... but you might get answers that are more helpful or a perspective that might really bring you (and maybe your wife) to a better understanding of things if you let the members here address those concerns. I converted to the church just last year after spending most of my adult life as a militant atheist. There were things I had to work through and get a better understanding of even after I converted.

But like I said I don't want to push and you've already answered me once by declining, so feel free to tell me to piss off :)

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You stated in your OP that you can't be baptized until 2015, and you wouldn't be able to go to the temple until 1 year after that, so I'm not really sure why this seems to be such an issue with her at the moment anyway.

Also, she can receive her endowment without being married to a member... I think that it is still church policy that she get written permission from her husband in order to do this, so a good gesture on your part would be to support her in this.

If she's so concerned about being sealed in this life, than she really should have dated an active member with the same intentions, not a non member.

You can also point out to her that temple work is done for the dead, and that with such detailed records being kept these days, chances are if the two of you stay married you will be sealed after you die... (and according to doctrine that sealing is just as valid as if the two of you do it yourselves in this life). So the real question is does she really want to be with you for eternity, or does she just want to fit in with the club?

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chances are if the two of you stay married you will be sealed after you die... (and according to doctrine that sealing is just as valid as if the two of you do it yourselves in this life)

Except they will still have agency to reject that ordinance if they so choose. Just like what's going on right now. :cool:

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As far as the "beyond the veil" thing, why would anyone reject it after they die? If the church really is true, then everyone is going to figure that out once they kick the bucket, right?

Nope... First the Book of Mormon teaches that what ever attitudes and thought processes we have when we leave this life will be what we have in the next. For example someone who is strongly anti-god and pro-science will clearly have some issues with life after death once they are 'living' it. But they will not by default turn to god. They will instead turn to science and have a whole new theories and ideas to explain what is going on.

In many ways until the final judgement, death is just an continuance of our test and trials that we are to face.

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