Coming to terms with the Book of Abraham


DKM88
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DKM88, I believe I know how you are feeling right now. I have been down the same road for the last 3 years now. I returned from my mission with a firm testamony which I belived would never be shaken. But All that history stuff you mentioned in your posts were just screaming out too loud "How can you still belive?"

It tears you apart to sort of believe in the church but at the same time not to be able to accept major parts of it.

You asked how to deal with it...

First of all: It's the toughest thing I know of so far. It's like fighting yourself. Your core beliefs are taken and ripped apart. There might be family and friends involved. They might not understand. Most TBMs don't understand, how someone can dare to question such a thing as holy scripture.

I've been on the edge of quitting and leaving the church a few times. Partly because of this forum, too. Some of the answers I got just hurt because I didn't have the impression my concerns were taken serious. (I hope you other guys may learn to be a bit more understanding)

Anyway, so I've been dealing with all my questions for about 3 years now. Last week I "made a decision" to believe again. Elder Bednar held a fireside in our stake and I could feel the Spirit so stongly. I prepared for the meeting by asking the Lord in prayer whether E. Bednar was a true and honest apostle or not. And my feelings just didn't leave any doubt. Yes, he is an apostle, a disciple of Jesus Christ.

How could the church he represents possibly have gone astray?

There was another thing, that kept coming to my mind. Something like 'You live now in 2011 and not back in the day 1830' Just let it go.

Ok, that doesn't resolve any of the historic issues I have with the church, but it sets them into perspective. They lost much of their importance. I'D rather focus on the blessings that come from believing in Christ as my Savior. I feel like a huge burden has just been lifted from my shoulders.

I hope this has been of any help to you. I guess, nobody can talk away your concerns. Maybe it will take time to come to terms with the matter.

To address the bolded part of your quote: I experienced that myself when I was going through my period of questioning. I even started a thread on it a few years ago. Members seem to automatically go on the defensive when someone starts questioning, and it does far more harm than good, IMO, for the person's struggling Testimony.

And I too had an experience similar to yours that helped me regain my Testimony. It happened in the Temple, and I *knew* that the Church was True then. A quote I've often heard but can't source often floats through my mind when I feel like my doubts ought to take me OUT of the church: "Don't let what you DON'T know destroy your faith in what you DO know"

For all the things I don't fully understand about the Gospel, or about the Church (because you do have to see them as seperate entities at times. The Church is human, the Gospel is not), there are some things that I just KNOW. I can't explain how or why, just that I DO, and I cling to those things when the things I DON'T know start nagging me. It's not that I ignore those things, or turn a blind eye to them, I just aknowledge that they may always be a mystery to me, that there may not be an "answer" to find (at least, not on this side of the veil).

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Anyway, so I've been dealing with all my questions for about 3 years now. Last week I "made a decision" to believe again. Elder Bednar held a fireside in our stake and I could feel the Spirit so stongly. I prepared for the meeting by asking the Lord in prayer whether E. Bednar was a true and honest apostle or not. And my feelings just didn't leave any doubt. Yes, he is an apostle, a disciple of Jesus Christ.

Alma 32

27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.

29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.

I am so glad you posted your testimony of Apostle Bednar! You have followed the counsel of Alma. But just like any seed, continued nourishment is needed. Apostasy occurs when someone discontinues to water the garden of seeds.

Also, we can throw poison on our garden too, or take away the sun by replacing light and truth (the word of Christ) with darkness (the words of Satan). Without the light of Christ our seeds will die. That requires faith. We nourish our seeds because we have faith in Christ that they will grow. Do not nourish it with poison or anti-literature. Do not look beyond the mark and delve into subjects that are better left alone for now. Line upon line, precept on precept, here a little, there a little until we become perfect in our knowledge of things. If we walk faster than we are able, we will stumble and fall.

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DKM88, I believe I know how you are feeling right now. I have been down the same road for the last 3 years now. I returned from my mission with a firm testamony which I belived would never be shaken. But All that history stuff you mentioned in your posts were just screaming out too loud "How can you still belive?"

It tears you apart to sort of believe in the church but at the same time not to be able to accept major parts of it.

You asked how to deal with it...

First of all: It's the toughest thing I know of so far. It's like fighting yourself. Your core beliefs are taken and ripped apart. There might be family and friends involved. They might not understand. Most TBMs don't understand, how someone can dare to question such a thing as holy scripture.

I've been on the edge of quitting and leaving the church a few times. Partly because of this forum, too. Some of the answers I got just hurt because I didn't have the impression my concerns were taken serious. (I hope you other guys may learn to be a bit more understanding)

Anyway, so I've been dealing with all my questions for about 3 years now. Last week I "made a decision" to believe again. Elder Bednar held a fireside in our stake and I could feel the Spirit so stongly. I prepared for the meeting by asking the Lord in prayer whether E. Bednar was a true and honest apostle or not. And my feelings just didn't leave any doubt. Yes, he is an apostle, a disciple of Jesus Christ.

How could the church he represents possibly have gone astray?

There was another thing, that kept coming to my mind. Something like 'You live now in 2011 and not back in the day 1830' Just let it go.

Ok, that doesn't resolve any of the historic issues I have with the church, but it sets them into perspective. They lost much of their importance. I'D rather focus on the blessings that come from believing in Christ as my Savior. I feel like a huge burden has just been lifted from my shoulders.

I hope this has been of any help to you. I guess, nobody can talk away your concerns. Maybe it will take time to come to terms with the matter.

So what you're saying is you learned to "turn it off?"

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DKM88

I understand a lot of your position and concerns. Each one has merit. The problem is the answer to each one would take years of learning and experience for you to come to terms with it.

I know there are concepts, statements, doctrine, etc. which our Heavenly Father could place in front of me right now that would try my testimony to the core. I ask Him not to show me these things until I am ready for that reason.

If I were to walk up to a kindergarten student who was just learning math and throw an algebra problem at him with the answer right in front of him and asked him to understand it, would he? No. What if I told him he has to come to an understanding of that algebra problem in order to graduate from kindergarten? Well, he might just quit school altogether and never graduate from high school, never go on to college.

We are in kindergarten when it comes to God's doctrine. Best if we learn math before progressing on to algebra. Just accept the basics, get a testimony of them. Grasp what is in your reach and, yes, "turn it off"

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DKM88

I understand a lot of your position and concerns. Each one has merit. The problem is the answer to each one would take years of learning and experience for you to come to terms with it.

I know there are concepts, statements, doctrine, etc. which our Heavenly Father could place in front of me right now that would try my testimony to the core. I ask Him not to show me these things until I am ready for that reason.

If I were to walk up to a kindergarten student who was just learning math and throw an algebra problem at him with the answer right in front of him and asked him to understand it, would he? No. What if I told him he has to come to an understanding of that algebra problem in order to graduate from kindergarten? Well, he might just quit school altogether and never graduate from high school, never go on to college.

We are in kindergarten when it comes to God's doctrine. Best if we learn math before progressing on to algebra. Just accept the basics, get a testimony of them. Grasp what is in your reach and, yes, "turn it off"

Excellent. So I'm just not quite as advanced as everyone else here in the gospel. That must be it.

The Book of Abraham seems like there's nothing authentic about it. I'll "turn it off."

The blacks ban from the priesthood doesn't appear to be from God. I'll "turn it off."

Joseph's hidden wives and the women he married that were already married to faithful members of the church is shaking my testimony. I'll "turn it off."

Mormons connection to masonry is undeniable, but we deny it. I'll "turn it off."

Thanks.

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The Book of Abraham seems like there's nothing authentic about it. I'll "turn it off."

Choose a verse, or a concept, or a picture which you don't consider authentic and let's discuss it. We'll first discuss the ancient aspects. You cn state what you don't find authentic about it, and then I or whoever else would like to participate can present our counter arguments. When that is done with we could move on to possible influences in Joseph's environment. Ok?

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Masonry rituals are derived from that which was done in Solomon's temple. It would make sense to me that we'd still be doing those things in God's temple in this dispensation. My next door neighbor brought this to my attention as well and kept asking me if I wasn't "shocked" by this information. It's actually pretty sensible to me, and I don't understand what's supposed to be so shocking or testimony-shaking about it.

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Excellent. So I'm just not quite as advanced as everyone else here in the gospel. That must be it.

The Book of Abraham seems like there's nothing authentic about it. I'll "turn it off."

The blacks ban from the priesthood doesn't appear to be from God. I'll "turn it off."

Joseph's hidden wives and the women he married that were already married to faithful members of the church is shaking my testimony. I'll "turn it off."

Mormons connection to masonry is undeniable, but we deny it. I'll "turn it off."

Thanks.

I never said I understood those things either. So I am not claiming to be more advanced than you.

I do have a testimony burned hotly in my soul that Jesus is the Christ, this is his church and Thomas S. Monson is the current prophet. So with that testimony, I have to take the rest on faith and sometimes, "turn it off".

What if I allowed those items you mention drive me away from the Gospel? I still will have to appear before Christ one day. He will say, did I not cause the Holy Ghost to burn a testimony that my church is true in your bosom? I would have to respond, yes! Then he would say why did you leave it? Then I would go on telling him how I just could not come to terms with certain parts of it. He would then say, Oh, ye of little faith! Sit on my left hand side.

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Masonry rituals are derived from that which was done in Solomon's temple. It would make sense to me that we'd still be doing those things in God's temple in this dispensation. My next door neighbor brought this to my attention as well and kept asking me if I wasn't "shocked" by this information. It's actually pretty sensible to me, and I don't understand what's supposed to be so shocking or testimony-shaking about it.

That's erronious information. Freemasons didn't exist until the 1400's or somewhere around there. Joseph Smith was a mason and ascribed to the idea that masonry existed in the days of Adam and were passed down from generation to generation by holy men. Knowing this makes the temple experience actually makes sense. Of course, Joseph Smith was wrong about masonry always existing and masonry accepts this.

You should listen to George Miller. He's an active, TR holding, member of the Church, and he's also a Freemason. Here are some podcasts he's done. They are very informative and enlightening.

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Choose a verse, or a concept, or a picture which you don't consider authentic and let's discuss it. We'll first discuss the ancient aspects. You cn state what you don't find authentic about it, and then I or whoever else would like to participate can present our counter arguments. When that is done with we could move on to possible influences in Joseph's environment. Ok?

Honestly, I wouldn't know where to start. There are so many things that it would take too long to discuss them one by one.

Read this and then we can discuss. It outlines the ideas objectively without influence from either side.

Edited by estradling75
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Well it seems like your anti friends have you well-armed and nothing any of us have to say will hold weight with you. I think it comes down to being willing to be very quiet with yourself in prayer and listening hard to the whisperings of the Spirit. Anything else is really the philosophies of man mingled with scripture. Good luck to you.

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You should listen to George Miller. He's an active, TR holding, member of the Church, and he's also a Freemason. Here are some podcasts he's done. They are very informative and enlightening.

Good ol' 'faithful' George Miller, also highly respected amongst the New Order Mormon crowd. Very popular with those who just can't accept that Joseph Smith was a real prophet and that, gosh darnit, the Church should just catch up with the rest of the world and it would be a fine institution.

I've seen a little of how George acts... Had a two-post exchange with him on the NOM forum and he came across as fake as a $3 bill. A very nice $3 bill though. Might not know he's counterfeit money.

DKM, you're not here to try to find out the truth. You're here to pick fights and spread your recently acquired brand of faithlessness. You're miserable now and so you want everyone else to be. You've bought Babylon's lies hook, line, and sinker and pretend that you're just being honest with yourself and sticking to scientific inquiry. The longer you stay here maintaining the Book of Abraham is false, the harder your heart is going to get. The deeper you get with those who have set out to fight against the prophet Joseph, the harder your heart is going to get.

Very soon- sooner than you think- the whole world is going to start realizing just how wrong the current scientific and cultural paradigms are, and they will be traded in for much more evil ones. If you live another 20 years, you will see the whole world crumble around you.

I encourage you to put aside the scientific journals and the words of the apologists/critics and the discussions you've had here and really seek God to learn if He really is there, and find out His will for you. I promise you that if you do this for one week- forget about the Book of Abraham, forget about the Church, forget even about Joseph Smith for now- and seek God with your whole heart and spirit, you will find peace concerning your issues. Let God be your guide.

Unless your heart changes, you can gain no more good from being here. Whatever happens, I wish you the best.

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I think it's reasonable to say that all this factual arguing boils down to "he said, she said" stuff. No one really knows the whole truth, because we weren't there to witness the events, and apparently no one even knows for sure whether the documents we currently have are accurately provenanced.

I do know one thing for sure after being on this planet for over 63 years: Every Anti argument that I have ever researched to a conclusion was a total lie and fabrication. Whereas, the spirit of the Lord I have felt from time to time in my life, wasn't.

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So what you're saying is you learned to "turn it off?"

No. What I am saying is that I gained a very powerful spirtual witness. A witness given thruogh the Holy Ghost that was way stronger than any of my doubts.

AWitness that confirmed to me the sacred calling of elder Bednars apostleship.

A witness that confirmed to me that the gospel is true and its teachings great.

And I noticed a change in my life too. I feel alot happier now. My approach to others is much more cheerful.

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In addition to the previous post:

I feel the only way to resolve concerns like yours (and mine) is through a spiritual witness. I tried differently before, but all attempts to resolve my questions on an intellectual level were not satisfying.

I read books, history, BYU studies publications, FAIR, FARMS, you name it.

I learned many things I didn't know before. But it didn't help just to "learn" about the past.

I got to a point, when I didn't know which sources I could trust. I felt deceived by the whole world so to say.

But with that spiritual witness an assurance came back into my life. It took me several years to allow myself to feel that Spirit again. I can't speak for you but for me part of the problem was that I felt so betrayed learning about the unpopular parts of church history, that I didn't allow myself to listen to that still small voice.

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Well let's look at some facts most the post you see on the internet come from the so called documentary that was put out by the IRR which is an organization that works on getting lds back to the "in their minds" true Christ. When in fact they make it out to be true fact is only half true and mostly to deceive. Most that watch or read the blogs don't know that they state things as fact when only half is true and the other half is to deceive. For example the Joseph smith pyre that was found which is the book of breathing was with many documents found. Joseph smith said that the BOA was a long scroll wrote in black and red. This can be accounted by others that saw it. They leave this part out of the story. The book of breathing was not a long scroll and no red writing on it so it is not what was used. Also let's look at the document that had the English hand writing of the book of Abraham and the Egyptian. Forensics has looked at this and it turns out that the English was wrote first they were actually able to even found that the Egyptian overlapped ontop of the English ink. Where for it was not used for a translation. Many people tried to figure out the translation process. The English was not even in Joseph's hand writing. This fact is left out to. It’s like the saying the devil will tell you 100 truths to make you believe one big lie. This will not give you a testimony but it might help you wonder about a sight that leaves out facts to make you see one opinion. Of course I have not wrote down all the facts but I have wrote the ones I remember because I too struggled with this. Please excuse me i am typing on my phone. Lol p

Edited by yodabrooke
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You watched that 'Lost Book of Abraham' mocumentary didn't you? That clever little film made by IRR (top-notch anti-mormon group) that really makes you believe it's a scholarly production. I'm just guessing at this, because when I first saw it, I sat down with the same "ideas" about the BofA that you're having. My faith had been shaken.

Then I found out the Institute of Religious Research (IRR) wasn't being honest with me. This wasn't even an original work, the film is just an adaptation of a book they wrote in the 80's. It is so well done too, you really believe it's an unbiased objective look at the BofA. Once you start poking around this "documentary" though, the walls turn out to be nothing more than cards, and it all comes crashing down.

http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/LBOA.pdf

Watch it again, then give that a read. Then research it yourself. Brigham Young said himself that we should never take his or anyone else's word about anything, we should find out for ourselves.

If I am mistaken and you've never heard of this video I'm talking about, please disregard.

Your comment and especially the link which I've read in detail is very important and brings true clarity to an incomplete history. Thank you
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I apologize to for not responding. Apparently the admin banned me for a week, and then decided to make it permanent. I'm sure by admitting this I will be banned again.

The attitude of many people on here, and especially the admin, are the EXACT reason why Church activity is dwindling. You think you're doing the Lord's work, but you're not! How is ostracizing someone and then banning them helping anything? I never attacked anyone or even brought up anything that was "anti", unless you include facts that aren't pretty as "anti."

So go ahead. I'm sure by banning me again will give you another notch in your belt in building the kingdom of God and you just might get to the next level in the Celestial Kingdom. Or it just might go the other way, but who knows?

Again, I apologize to anyone that might have been offended and to the well-meaning people that I haven't had a chance to respond to. If I'm not banned again I will try and address things that have been brought up, especially the information from FAIR.

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How is ostracizing someone and then banning them helping anything?

well...i'm not even a member and i found some of your comments quite annoying and rather disrespectful...

i'm currently an investigator and i rarely write on here but i do enjoy reading the many interesting discussion on the forum - with you however there wasn't much of a discussion but more of a "i'm right because i know i'm right and i won't bother with your comments and evidence" -> that's not very helpful to me as an investigator...

whether to ban you or not is up to the admin but i'd say you had it coming ;)

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Hey mods, keep deleting my posts and banning me for no reason. The problem is the truth is the truth. When every fact you can find points to the notion that the Book of Abraham isn't what the Church claims it to be and the only way to be able to possibly accept it is through "spiritual witness", there's a problem. It's called cognitive dissonance, and mark my words, one day you or someone you love will have these same questions, and I hope you use a little more tact when dealing with them or yourself.

I love the Church, I love the members of the Church, but there are many things that I can't accept as true. Sorry. I guess I'll be going to the telestial kingdom. You're all more than welcome to visit me there and let me know how your eternal lineage is working out.

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DKM90,

Your hubris is amazing. None of us has all of the truth. That there are unanswered questions regarding the BoA does not mean there is no evidence for it. You look at a couple papyri that are the Book of Breathings, and conclude that it is all false. Yet, if you really studied it closely and the manner in which Joseph Smith "translates", you would see that it isn't a regular translation. Whether there were other papyri, or he used these papyri as a catalyst to revelation, is immaterial. I personally do not care much about the issues regarding the papyri, although I'm probably more read up on it than anyone else here.

That you would dismiss the Spirit is another evidence of your hubris. The Spirit is the method God has given to provide a witness. That the Book of Abraham's text does not match the Book of Breathing is immaterial. It was an ancient method to take a text and make it one's own in writing something new. Just look at all the ancient Jewish and Christian texts that claim to have been written by one or another prophet. That J, E, P, D and R all had no problem with reworking the oral tradition and scripture they had available, shows us that this is not just something Joseph made up, but an ancient and accepted pattern of using some text as a catalyst for new scripture. We see this also in Joseph's "translation" of the Bible, his "translating" the Book of Mormon without opening the plates, etc.

The person who is consumed by the papyri has lost focus. Joseph restored ancient concepts that no scholar can explain away. All they can do is attack the medium. We may as well reject Einstein's theories of relativity because he flunked math! In doing so, we entirely miss the point by focusing on the wrong facts.

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DKM90,

Your hubris is amazing. None of us has all of the truth. That there are unanswered questions regarding the BoA does not mean there is no evidence for it. You look at a couple papyri that are the Book of Breathings, and conclude that it is all false. Yet, if you really studied it closely and the manner in which Joseph Smith "translates", you would see that it isn't a regular translation. Whether there were other papyri, or he used these papyri as a catalyst to revelation, is immaterial. I personally do not care much about the issues regarding the papyri, although I'm probably more read up on it than anyone else here.

That you would dismiss the Spirit is another evidence of your hubris. The Spirit is the method God has given to provide a witness. That the Book of Abraham's text does not match the Book of Breathing is immaterial. It was an ancient method to take a text and make it one's own in writing something new. Just look at all the ancient Jewish and Christian texts that claim to have been written by one or another prophet. That J, E, P, D and R all had no problem with reworking the oral tradition and scripture they had available, shows us that this is not just something Joseph made up, but an ancient and accepted pattern of using some text as a catalyst for new scripture. We see this also in Joseph's "translation" of the Bible, his "translating" the Book of Mormon without opening the plates, etc.

The person who is consumed by the papyri has lost focus. Joseph restored ancient concepts that no scholar can explain away. All they can do is attack the medium. We may as well reject Einstein's theories of relativity because he flunked math! In doing so, we entirely miss the point by focusing on the wrong facts.

I'm not completely rejecting the Book of Abraham, the best experts in the world are rejecting it. I'm only rejecting it as the Church teaches it. I like the Book of Abraham and think it teaches some cool concepts, but it's not what it claims to be as far as I can tell.

I applaud your efforts to try and come to terms with the Book of Abraham by using examples that still can't be verified, such as the Book of Mormon translation. I also applaud you for attacking me as overly confident. It's a nice tactic. You're still just saying 'pray and obey' when things don't work out. I believe that God wants each of us to seek truth. The early Church taught it, even though the current Church does not. They claim that the Church has given us the truth, so there's no reason to question anything anymore.

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