Coming to terms with the Book of Abraham

[NeuroTypical]

Here's another question. A man prays in Iran and receives a profound spiritual witness that Islam is the one true religion. Is he wrong

I'd have to ask you to produce such a Muslim. A common misconception of people who are raised in the LDS church, is that praying for direct revalation from God is something that lots of people do. Not so. I don't think Islam has anything in its scripture or doctrine allowing for such a thing. Allah is great and man is small, so if man is bright enough he'll do what Allah commands, and watch the miracles flow, and that's about it. I don't hear anything about a personal relationship with Allah.

From what I can tell, Judaism is in the same boat. God is sort of a majestic figure sitting on a throne somewhere else.

The folks at my local mega-church, and the Catholics I talk to, sure don't make any claims about praying to gain knowledge of the truth. In fact, I've been told by various Christians that praying for a spiritual witness, is signseeking, and good Christians would never do such a thing.

[DKM88]

I'd have to ask you to produce such a Muslim. A common misconception of people who are raised in the LDS church, is that praying for direct revalation from God is something that lots of people do. Not so. I don't think Islam has anything in its scripture or doctrine allowing for such a thing. Allah is great and man is small, so if man is bright enough he'll do what Allah commands, and watch the miracles flow, and that's about it. I don't hear anything about a personal relationship with Allah.

From what I can tell, Judaism is in the same boat. God is sort of a majestic figure sitting on a throne somewhere else.

The folks at my local mega-church, and the Catholics I talk to, sure don't make any claims about praying to gain knowledge of the truth. In fact, I've been told by various Christians that praying for a spiritual witness, is signseeking, and good Christians would never do such a thing.

So instead of addressing the question, you just say that it's not possible. Wow.

Are you saying that the only people in the world that can receive a spiritual witness are Mormon? Seriously? Do you realize what you're saying?

[Jenamarie]

So instead of addressing the question, you just say that it's not possible. Wow.

Are you saying that the only people in the world that can receive a spiritual witness are Mormon? Seriously? Do you realize what you're saying?

That's not what LM said. He's saying that it's typically only Mormons who will SEEK that spiritual witness. Certainly others CAN recieve it, but it's not part of their faith traditions/culture, and so not something that they would likely consider doing. (not saying NONE of them consider doing it)

ETA: the way I read it, it was in no way meant to be a criticism of those people.

Edited September 8, 2011 by Jenamarie

[DKM88]

That's not what LM said. He's saying that it's typically only Mormons who will SEEK that spiritual witness. Certainly others CAN recieve it, but it's not part of their faith traditions/culture, and so not something that they would likely consider doing. (not saying NONE of them consider doing it)

But for him to believe that a Muslim can have a spiritual witness to the truthfulness of Islam, I have to "produce" one for him. Come on...really? lol

[HiJolly]

So instead of addressing the question, you just say that it's not possible. Wow.

That's totally unfair of you, D. You have built a view of the Mormon faith that just isn't so, you know. Your claims on the Book of Abraham are so one-dimensional that it is obvious you don't care about the reality, you only care about the appearance of facts. That's no way to deal with religion or the magic world view, D.

Are you saying that the only people in the world that can receive a spiritual witness are Mormon? Seriously? Do you realize what you're saying?

He's not saying that. He's (if I understand him correctly) saying that the paradigm of personal prayer is not anywhere near similar between our religions/cultures.

As a mystic, I know very well that spiritual witnesses are given to all men/women throughout the world, regardless of situation or religion. It clearly states this in the Book of Mormon. So that's not the problem. The similarity of their experiences suggests something very interesting indeed. Which I'll bet you don't believe for a minute, since you're just using this scenario as a straw-man to attack LDS beliefs anyway.

Nor is the faithful Muslim or Catholic or Buddhist who receives a spiritual confirmation that their path is in accord with God's will, a problem for members of the Mormon Church. Why do you seem to think it is?

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

But for him to believe that a Muslim can have a spiritual witness to the truthfulness of Islam, I have to "produce" one for him. Come on...really? lol

You totally miss his point, and then mock him for your lack of understanding? Sheesh.

HiJolly

[DKM88]

That's totally unfair of you, D. You have built a view of the Mormon faith that just isn't so, you know. Your claims on the Book of Abraham are so one-dimensional that it is obvious you don't care about the reality, you only care about the appearance of facts. That's no way to deal with religion or the magic world view, D.

He's not saying that. He's (if I understand him correctly) saying that the paradigm of personal prayer is not anywhere near similar between our religions/cultures.

As a mystic, I know very well that spiritual witnesses are given to all men/women throughout the world, regardless of situation or religion. It clearly states this in the Book of Mormon. So that's not the problem. The similarity of their experiences suggests something very interesting indeed. Which I'll bet you don't believe for a minute, since you're just using this scenario as a straw-man to attack LDS beliefs anyway.

Nor is the faithful Muslim or Catholic or Buddhist who receives a spiritual confirmation that their path is in accord with God's will, a problem for members of the Mormon Church. Why do you seem to think it is?

HiJolly

How are my claims of the Book of Abraham one-dimensional? I've done nothing but re-state things presented by egyptologists and other professionals, and offered my take on them. Also, I love how you say I don't care about "reality", I only care about the "facts."

Also, I'm offended that you are telling me that I'm creating a straw man argument. I felt that he was insinuating something from his statement, and I was simply trying to clarify what he meant. How is that a straw man argument?

I think I was saying exactly that...the similarity of "spiritual experience" is amazing. Which is why I said that it's difficult to differentiate between them. If a muslim prays and feels that his religion is true and he feels close to God, I won't tell him it's untrue. I'm sure many on this site would scoff at him behind his back, and it's a major problem in Mormondom.

And I'm not attacking LDS beliefs. Simply because I view the LDS beliefs differently than you or others on this forum, does not mean I'm attacking anybody. I feel that I'm offering a different side of the coin. But I realize that we've all been conditioned to respond a certain way. I just ask that you realize that I'm not attacking the Church.

[DKM88]

You totally miss his point, and then mock him for your lack of understanding? Sheesh.

HiJolly

I don't think I missed his point. He made the statement, not me. Sure, he veered off the path from his original statement, which ended up being the meat of his statement, but he still started it off with the insinuation. Maybe it was a Freudian slip, but it's a very common viewpoint amongst many in the Church, that nobody can have a witness of the truth except us, because only we have the truth.

[HiJolly]

Maybe it was a Freudian slip, but it's a very common viewpoint amongst many in the Church, that nobody can have a witness of the truth except us, because only we have the truth.

Not many on this board have that view. A few, certainly. But not LM nor I believe that.

And anyone who has actually studied their faith will know that truth is out there, everywhere, for all to find, love and live by. At least, that's how *I* see it. And I think the scriptures back me up.

HiJolly

[DKM88]

Not many on this board have that view. A few, certainly. But not LM nor I believe that.

And anyone who has actually studied their faith will know that truth is out there, everywhere, for all to find, love and live by. At least, that's how *I* see it. And I think the scriptures back me up.

HiJolly

I agree with you completely on the issue of truth. See, we are probably closer to being alike than we think. We just express ourselves differently!

[HiJolly]

How are my claims of the Book of Abraham one-dimensional?

You accept hard facts but not 'the Spirit'. You think that the papyrii found to date are all there was, ever. This is in direct contradiction to the evidence. Unless the only evidence you will accept is what *you* see, not what the people who *did* see the mummies, papyrii etc. saw.

I've done nothing but re-state things presented by egyptologists and other professionals, and offered my take on them. Also, I love how you say I don't care about "reality", I only care about the "facts."

I doubt you appreciate the distinction. I think that's one dimensional thinking.

Also, I'm offended that you are telling me that I'm creating a straw man argument. I felt that he was insinuating something from his statement, and I was simply trying to clarify what he meant. How is that a straw man argument?

You seem to think that he believed that Muslims could not have valid spiritual experiences. That's severely misrepresenting his position. Yes, to the level of straw man attack. I think you're likely a hypocrite as well, since I doubt you think *anyone's* spiritual experience is any kind of valid evidence of fact. I'd love to be misreading you on this. Show me.

I think I was saying exactly that...the similarity of "spiritual experience" is amazing.

Hmm.... and in that context "amazing" meant...

Which is why I said that it's difficult to differentiate between them. If a muslim prays and feels that his religion is true and he feels close to God, I won't tell him it's untrue. I'm sure many on this site would scoff at him behind his back, and it's a major problem in Mormondom.

Maybe, but I think that based on my experience that would only be *some* Mormons that feel that way.

And I'm not attacking LDS beliefs. Simply because I view the LDS beliefs differently than you or others on this forum, does not mean I'm attacking anybody. I feel that I'm offering a different side of the coin.

A side of the coin that denies our faith. Nice.

But I realize that we've all been conditioned to respond a certain way. I just ask that you realize that I'm not attacking the Church.

How can we take your comments on the Book of Abraham as anything else? Really?

HiJolly

[DKM88]

You accept hard facts but not 'the Spirit'. You think that the papyrii found to date are all there was, ever. This is in direct contradiction to the evidence. Unless the only evidence you will accept is what *you* see, not what the people who *did* see the mummies, papyrii etc. saw.

I doubt you appreciate the distinction. I think that's one dimensional thinking.

You seem to think that he believed that Muslims could not have valid spiritual experiences. That's severely misrepresenting his position. Yes, to the level of straw man attack. I think you're likely a hypocrite as well, since I doubt you think *anyone's* spiritual experience is any kind of valid evidence of fact. I'd love to be misreading you on this. Show me.

Hmm.... and in that context "amazing" meant...

Maybe, but I think that based on my experience that would only be *some* Mormons that feel that way.

A side of the coin that denies our faith. Nice.

How can we take your comments on the Book of Abraham as anything else? Really?

HiJolly

You shouldn't doubt me, HiJolly. I don't deny the faith of anyone. All I've stated is facts. I believe in God. I have faith that he exists. I've seen no evidence that he exists or doesn't exist, so I have to have faith. There are other things, however, that bear evidence that they may not be what they claim to be. I can't deny facts, and it's up to me where they lead me. I choose not to ignore facts but to stay in the Church. Is that a bad thing? I don't think so.

I think the time will come, probably sooner than later, that the Church accepts a lot of things that you all don't accept. The fact that they stopped excommunicating intellectuals for stating facts (fighting against the Church is a different story) shows you that times are changing. The Church no longer claims that homosexuality is a sin or even a choice (except Boyd K. Packer, of course). The Church fought against gay marriage in CA, but were silent in NY. I'm not trying to get too far off the path here, but I think that as science and the dissemination of information becomes more a part of our lives and new generations rise up, the Church will change.

[Saldrin]

I think the time will come, probably sooner than later, that the Church accepts a lot of things that you all don't accept.

As much as you want it to, the Church will NOT change in the ways you suggest and if that DAY does comes, it will have fallen into apostasy.

[DKM88]

As much as you want it to, the Church will NOT change in the ways you suggest and if that DAY does comes, it will have fallen into apostasy.

Many said the same about polygamy, Adam-God theory, blacks in the priesthood, etc. God works in mysterious ways, my friend.

[HiJolly]

You shouldn't doubt me, HiJolly.

Of course I should. Always seek evidence, always resist assumptions that are unfounded in evidence. I doubt you. That's not necessarily a bad thing, mind. It just means I'm undecided. But as of right now, you are slippery and very dodgy. Example One:

I don't deny the faith of anyone. All I've stated is facts.

You're like Snow. You have in this very thread denied the faith of several posters here. It's in black & white. And facts? Really? I don't think you understand how difficult it is to know the facts. Even professional historians know they don't have the facts, at least a huge percentage of them as they actually were in the day.

So the pros carefully qualify all their statements and portrayals of 'fact', and the polemicists go to town and make flat blanket assertions that are dubious at best as to accuracy. And here you are, buying into it without any indication that you understand any nuance whatever.

Psychologically we all seek certainty. Some do it by limiting themselves to science (more or less synonymous with materiality). Others do it by couching all belief in conclusive ambiguity or endless philosophical conundrums. Some do it by pinning down a few 'facts' and then emphasizing them over & over, many times in the wrong context or by inappropriate application.

Example two:

I believe in God. I have faith that he exists. I've seen no evidence that he exists or doesn't exist, so I have to have faith. There are other things, however, that bear evidence that they may not be what they claim to be. I can't deny facts, and it's up to me where they lead me. I choose not to ignore facts but to stay in the Church. Is that a bad thing? I don't think so.

"I'm just one of you! What can be wrong with that?" ---is the gist that I'm getting from this statement. Truly, no one can argue that it's bad to follow the facts (whatever you may think them to be) or that God doesn't exist, or that having faith is bad.

But what about my comments, D?

I doubt you think *anyone's* spiritual experience is any kind of valid evidence of fact.

You say I shouldn't doubt you -- why not? Is my doubt well founded? You imply that it is not. Say it directly, please. What do you accept as fact? A vision, perhaps?

In all fairness, D, have you read my testimony about the Church? HiJolly-comes-clean/ Keep in mind that I claim to be a mystic...

The fact that they stopped excommunicating intellectuals for stating facts (fighting against the Church is a different story) shows you that times are changing.

How is this a fact? Where did you learn this? What data supports the claim? Why do you believe it? My view is that many of the intellectual excommunications were irrational in their basis. What would cause that to change? Nothing, in my view.

The Church no longer claims that homosexuality is a sin or even a choice (except Boyd K. Packer, of course).

Are you sure you don't have other exceptions? How can you be sure?

The Church fought against gay marriage in CA, but were silent in NY. I'm not trying to get too far off the path here, but I think that as science and the dissemination of information becomes more a part of our lives and new generations rise up, the Church will change.

I agree, and I believe that much of the change will be more or less forced.

D, what makes me unhappy about your participation here is that you claim to have the facts, but you don't exhibit the evidence that would be expected of one having the facts.

You claim you don't have any evidence that God exists. Wow. That claim is simply unbelievable, particularly for a member of the Church. My guess would be that you don't accept the evidence that you have, because it doesn't fit your idea of what it should be.

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

Many said the same about polygamy, Adam-God theory, blacks in the priesthood, etc. God works in mysterious ways, my friend.

I have to agree with you on this, D.

A good example is illegal alien policy. Many LDS are struggling with the Church's position on that.

HiJolly

[Saldrin]

Many said the same about polygamy, Adam-God theory, blacks in the priesthood, etc. God works in mysterious ways, my friend.

no bro your just plain wrong. you see homosexuality is a SIN, it is stated as such in the scriptures. no one i know has ever stated an Adam-God theory to me in my upbringing or preaches it, and as for blacks in the priesthood its His authority to grant to who he wants when he wants. You least of all knows how God works so don't come here to presume that you have some authority to tell me things have changed. what in this world has granted you that foresight? did God himself visit you and tell you these changes are going to happen, they cant because that would mean God has changed from what was written in sacred scripture, and if that happens then God would cease to be God, which was also stated in scripture. but your previous statement is one man's opinion and that's about all.

Edited September 8, 2011 by Saldrin

[Saldrin]

I have to agree with you on this, D.

A good example is illegal alien policy. Many LDS are struggling with the Church's position on that.

HiJolly

I am going to disagree with you both on that.

[HiJolly]

I am going to disagree with you both on that.

Difference of opinion makes life interesting.

HiJolly

[Torch]

no bro your just plain wrong. you see homosexuality is a SIN, it is stated as such in the scriptures.

Are we really going to cherry pick which individual scriptures we are going to accept and not accept? Just out of curiosity, do you also believe the scriptures that state that if a single woman is raped, she should be forced to marry the rapist? Just curious as you said "it is stated as such in the scriptures."

[bytor2112]

Uh, thanks.

I have a question for you. What if I pray about Bigfoot and I believe with every fiber of my being that he is real by the power of a spiritual witness. Am I wrong?

Here's another question. A man prays in Iran and receives a profound spiritual witness that Islam is the one true religion. Is he wrong?

Could it be that a clearness of thought could be a spiritual witness? I believe that I've received that since studying the Book of Abraham, and it's been stunning.

Is your spiritual witness better or more valid than mine? Is your spiritual witness better or more valid than the Iranian muslim?

I guess you are referring to something "other" than the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit...a member of the Godhead testifies of Jesus Christ and Heavenly father...it comforts and the experience is Sacred and Holy and shouldn't be debased by comments about receiving a spiritual witness about bigfoot.

[Torch]

I guess you are referring to something "other" than the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit...a member of the Godhead testifies of Jesus Christ and Heavenly father...it comforts and the experience is Sacred and Holy and shouldn't be debased by comments about receiving a spiritual witness about bigfoot.

Are you saying that the Holy Spirit will not confirm other truths or mysteries of the universe, and how do you know? And is that because believing in Bigfoot is silly?

Edited September 8, 2011 by Torch

[HiJolly]

The Holy Ghost testifies of truth, and it is through His power that we “may know the truth of all things” (Moroni 10:5).

[HiJolly]

I would love to know the truth about Bigfoot. I'm pretty sure he isn't Cain...

HJ

[bytor2112]

Are you saying that the Holy Spirit will not confirm other truths or mysteries of the universe, and how do you know? And is that because believing in Bigfoot is silly?

No...I am saying that his post was a mockery of the mission of the Holy Spirit and belittles that mission which is to lead people to Christ. And Big foot is NOT silly.......