How Far to Take Word of Wisdom

[Jason_J]

Hi all,

So last night we had a regional YSA fireside (where I and 2 other recent converts shared our stories), after which I went out with a few friends from my ward. Two of us started laughing about how a month or so ago, we went to this restaurant that gave us free green tea ice cream after dinner. That then sparked a discussion about what is and isn't allowed as far as "no coffee, tea, or alcohol" goes.

So what's a good answer? We know that there no hot coffee or hot [green or black] tea, but what about iced tea, iced coffee, coffee/tea ice cream, cooking with alcohol, etc? There doesn't really seem to be a consensus on this (someone please correct me if I'm wrong).

Thanks!

[Vort]

There is no consensus. However, there is a rough understanding that, it seems, most in the Church agree to. (Translation: This is how Vort sees things.)

Iced tea/coffee: No. The Word of Wisdom has been interpreted as referring to tea and coffee when it speaks of "hot drinks", whether or not they are actually hot. Iced tea or coffee is a blatant violation.

Coffee/tea flavored ice cream: Marginal, but probably not a Word of Wisdom violation. I avoid it for Word of Wisdom reasons, and also because I think coffee and tea taste nasty.

Cooking with alcohol: Not a problem. Adding some vanilla extract to your cookie recipe is simply not the same as partaking of "strong drink", even though (in the US) vanilla extract is typically made by soaking vanilla beans in pure ethanol or very high proof whiskey or vodka.

There you have it -- Vort's Last Word on the subject! (Until I speak more words, anyway.)

[beefche]

Honestly, I'm not sure if the church has emphatically come out and detailed it. My rule of thumb is anything made with coffee (iced, hot, ice cream, etc.), anything made with the tea plant (red, black, green), or anything made with alcohol (drinks, food, etc) is off limits for me.

I struggle with the alcohol one because some foods or medicines have alcohol and it's difficult to avoid. If I know that a food has alcohol, I choose not to eat it. But, it's difficult to always avoid it. And in truth, my avoidance of alcohol is not just because of the WoW, but I do not want to support the alcohol industry.

But, those are my choices that I do not impose on others. The only thing I've seen from the church is that hot drinks means coffee and tea.

[dahlia]

Hi all,

but what about iced tea

I just about passed out in Gospel Principles when they said 'no iced tea.' My elders didn't tell me about that!

I guess I can have iced herbal tea (yum - not) and I've read that you can cook with alcohol as it burns off. I admit to having a few Weight Watchers Giant Latte ice creams this summer. It's not a hot drink, right? I don't see a problem with coffee-flavored ice creams and candies.

[Matthew0059]

The Word of Wisdom is a "principle given with a promise"- i.e., the LORD is directly revealing HIS design for keeping the human body and soul functioning at peak performance. Notice that most of the section is dedicated to what you should be eating and doing as opposed to what you should not be eating or doing.

If you focus on what you should be doing, you'll get more in tune with your body and be able to tell which foods aren't good for you. The closer you adhere to the guidelines offered in Sec. 89, the greater hidden treasures of knowledge you'll find.

So, the answer to "how far should you take the WoW" is the same answer as "how much do you REALLY want to obey every commandment GOD has given you" and "how much do you REALLY want all the blessings of heaven, including Sanctification"?

With that said, the gist of what the Brethren have said regarding 'hot drinks' are that they translate to coffee and tea (which were drunk straight out of the pot, still boiling, in JS's day), but herbal tea and hot chocolate are okay- therefore, it is the tea leaves and coffee beans themselves which are the problem. Therefore:

-Any drink or food with either Green, Black, or any other color of Tea leaves is not acceptable

-Any drink or food with any type of coffee bean present is not acceptable

As far as alcohol goes, I can't see a problem with cooking with it if the alcohol itself cooks out (leaving the flavor behind), as even in the early days of the Church "new wine" (grape juice, essentially, possibly a little fermented) was used for the sacrament. The beginning of the WoW states that it is given in part because of the "conspiring" of "evil men" in the Last Days. Looking at the modern alcohol industry and the current 'uses' of alcohol in social situations, it is clear why we are told to avoid it completely (not to mention that the WoW is adapted to the "capacity" of the "weakest of those who would call themselves Saints"- i.e., to the capacity of those who would get addicted even with one sip).

[Gwen]

There you have it -- Vort's Last Word on the subject! (Until I speak more words, anyway.)

Then shouldn't it be "Vort's latest words on the subject"?

As for the op, I think coffee and tea taste gross so I avoid it in any form.

Edited September 17, 2011 by Gwen

[volgadon]

Hi all,

So last night we had a regional YSA fireside (where I and 2 other recent converts shared our stories), after which I went out with a few friends from my ward. Two of us started laughing about how a month or so ago, we went to this restaurant that gave us free green tea ice cream after dinner. That then sparked a discussion about what is and isn't allowed as far as "no coffee, tea, or alcohol" goes.

So what's a good answer? We know that there no hot coffee or hot [green or black] tea, but what about iced tea, iced coffee, coffee/tea ice cream, cooking with alcohol, etc? There doesn't really seem to be a consensus on this (someone please correct me if I'm wrong).

Thanks!

Brigham Young stated that tea and coffee was meant by the term "hot drinks."

[pam]

I just about passed out in Gospel Principles when they said 'no iced tea.' My elders didn't tell me about that!

I guess I can have iced herbal tea (yum - not) and I've read that you can cook with alcohol as it burns off. I admit to having a few Weight Watchers Giant Latte ice creams this summer. It's not a hot drink, right? I don't see a problem with coffee-flavored ice creams and candies.

The problem is, the alcohol doesn't entirely burn off as many believe.

[james12]

I agree with the good clarification about tea and coffee and other drinks given in the previous posts. This thread reminds me of a good story out of David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism where Pres. McKay deals with the caffeinated soft drinks issue...

During the intermission of a theatrical presentation, his host offered to get refreshments: "His hearing wasn’t very good, and I got right down in front of him and I said, ‘President McKay, what would you like to drink? All of our cups say Coca Cola on them because of our arrangement with Coca Cola Bottling, but we have root beer and we have orange and we have Seven-Up. What would you like to drink?’ And he said, ‘I don’t care what it says on the cup, as long as there is Coke in the cup.”

[LittleWyvern]

I think we're missing the point when we try to extrapolate the Word of Wisdom beyond what it states. There are the few specific things that the Word of Wisdom does forbid, coffee, tea, alcohol, and illegal drugs, and that's it. So many people try to extrapolate these 4 guidelines to support a wide variety of restrictions that aren't even related to the Word of Wisdom (including that caffeine one that I've never understood). It's almost as if people have built up a hedge around it. What I think more people need to realize is that the Word of Wisdom contains more positive statements (i.e. you should eat this) than negative statements (i.e. you shouldn't eat this). It's meant to be some distilled common sense and a good general health code. If we tried to make an excruciating exhaustive list of what we could and couldn't eat, we'd miss the point of the Word of Wisdom entirely. I think the Word of Wisdom teaches us to just use our common sense, and when we're not sure what to do, ask God in prayer for guidance. Through that process we really gain spiritual strength.

[Guest DKM89]

The WoW was simply a recommendation from the Lord given through Joseph Smith. It wasn't until Brigham Young that you couldn't get into the temple without obeying it. Here's how the WoW came about according to Brigham Young and David Whitmer:

Thus Emma, faced almost daily with “having to clean so filthy a floor” as was left by the men chewing tobacco, spoke to Joseph about the matter. Davis Whitmer’s account supports Brigham Young’s description. “Some of the men were excessive chewers of the filthy weed, and their disgusting slobbering and spitting caused Mrs. Smith … to make the ironical remark that ‘It would be a good thing if a revelation could be had declaring the use of tobacco a sin, and commanding it’s suppression.’ The matter was taken up and joked about, one of the brethren suggested that the revelation should also provide for a total abstinence from tea and coffee drinking, intending this as a counter ‘dig’ at the sisters.” Sure enough the subject was afterward taken up in dead earnest, and the ‘Word of Wisdom’ was the result. (David Whitmer). (Des Moines Daily News, 16 Oct 1886:20 c. in: Newell & Avery 1994:47, also c: An Historical Analysis of the Word of Wisdom, Paul H. Peterson - Masters Thesis, [no location provided]; Also: c. in Tanner 1987:406. See also Tanner 1987: Ch. 26 for excellent coverage). (Emphasis added).

Also, the 1833 version of Section 89 COMMANDED the saints to abstain from these substances, but it was wildly unpopular. Ergo in the 1834 version is became advise instead of commandment.

he Word of Wisdom--Section 89 of the Doctrine and Covenants (D&C 89)--as given in the spring of 1833 commanded that the Saints totally abstain from the use of alcohol, tobacco, and hot drinks (tea and coffee). However, because of wide-spread use of and deep-seated attachment to these substances by members, this revelation, by 1834, was changed from a direct commandment to general advise only. Even so, zealous leaders and members pressed for compliance with the original meaning of the revelation, and in early December 1836, a unanimous vote of the Saints in Kirtland supported the complete abstinence of "all liquors from the Church in Sickness & in health except wine at the Sacraments & for external washing" (Journal of Wilford Woodruff, 4 December 1836).] (Kirtland Elders' Quorum Record: 15 Oct 1837). (Emphasis added).

Joseph was recorded as riding through town smoking cigars, drinking wine, and even got a bit tipsy the day he died. So even though he supposedly received the WoW as a commandment, he didn't take it too seriously.

Regardless of the validity of it, man would be much better off avoiding these substances.

[cooling]

Hmmm... From what I understood the whole WoW is in place to keep your bodies fit and healthy, right? So while copious amounts of caffeine are not good for you, one does have to remember that caffeine exists in other forms besides just coffee and tea. Chocolate has a pretty good sized dose in it. Certainly more than any green tea ice cream or coffee flavored candies. I'm not sure what the standard accepted way of interpreting the WoW is, but green tea is actually amazingly good for you.

I agree with Littlewyvern that you need to just know your body. I've seen Mormons who were die-hard adherents to the WoW but loaded their kids up with dozens of orange sodas every day. I'm fairly certain that the sugar in soda (not to mention the scary chemicals in diet soda) is far worse for your body than a cup of green tea. Soda wasn't around when the WoW was written though, so it wasn't included. I say that if the church doesn't take an official stand on something like that then you should decide for yourself what feels right to you and not worry too much about what anyone else thinks. What you eat and drink is really between you and God.

Oh, and I'm an amateur chef and I can tell you that very little alcohol burns off during the cooking process. I don't see cooking with alcohol as being a violation, but if it's something that concerns you there are alcohol free wines and spirits made specifically for cooking without adding liquor.

[mnn727]

Oh, and I'm an amateur chef and I can tell you that very little alcohol burns off during the cooking process..

No offense meant but I am a trained Professional Chef that cooked and managed restaurants professionally for 25 years (although retired from the business now) and I can tell you that if used properly; between 85% and 95% of the alcohol DOES evaporate. Now that does mean that 5%-15% of it remains and that's what causes some Mormons a problem. Personally, that's such a diluted number (compared to the entire meal) that it doesn't bother me.

Assume I use 4 oz of wine in a meal meant for 4 people. Assuming a 4% alcohal content that means I start with .16 oz of alcohol then I burn off a minimum of 85% (leaving 15% max) meaning there is .024 oz of alcohol divided between 4 servings leaving .006 oz per person -- divide an ounce into 1000 parts and then give each person 6 of them. What is that, about a quarter of a drop per person maybe? Frankly you'd get more alcohol walking on a sidewalk in front of a bar and inhaling.

Edited September 19, 2011 by mnn727

[Maureen]

...So while copious amounts of caffeine are not good for you, one does have to remember that caffeine exists in other forms besides just coffee and tea. Chocolate has a pretty good sized dose in it....

Compared to one cup of coffee (90-160mg of caffeine), chocolate averages about 30mg of caffeine, which I would consider negligible. But then the WofW is not really about caffeine, or in my opinion, health; it is an obedience commandment.

M.

[Guest FixingTheWrongs]

I DO like the flavor of coffee and I love mocha flavored things. I tend to put quite a bit of Pero in just about every chocolate beverage I drink. Pero powder lists four ingredients: Barley, Malted Barley, Chicory, Rye. Chicory is a flowering plant that when roasted, has a coffee like flavor, for those that don't know.

So how is one percived who actively drinks coffee flavored beverages but isn't drinking anything chemically close to coffee itself?

[RMGuy]

I"m a bit obtuse, but it seems to me that when God is speaking to a modern prophet of this dispensation he can be as direct and clear as he needs to be....otherwise, why have a prophet.

It looks like God was pretty direct to Joseph. The WoW is a greeting, not a commandment or constraint.

It advises against hot drinks....so I don't have hot coffee, hot tea, or hot chocolate.

It also advises against strong drink....so I save the vodka for the cleansing of wounds etc. Of course it also recommends Barley for "mild drinks" - beer, but I don't like the taste of it.

Tobacco, never interested me.

I love fruit and grains, so I am ok there....especially Barley soup. I LOVE barley soup.

I'm working on being less of a carnivore.

The other stuff, caffiene, mild drinks, I answer the TR questions accordingly.

--RM

Edited September 19, 2011 by RMGuy

[LittleWyvern]

So how is one percived who actively drinks coffee flavored beverages but isn't drinking anything chemically close to coffee itself?

I don't know. We could go the complicated route and define "coffee" as "a food or drink product containing substances from any plant in the Coffea genus" but I think we might be missing the point again.

Incedentially, this is how I also define "tea" (a food/drink product containing substances from the plant species Camellia sinensis) when otherwise well-meaning roommates/mission companions ask me why I just brought home some herbal tea.

[rayhale]

It would be nice for the Prophet to be clear about the WoW, back in Joseph Smith’s time; there was no soda, Coca-Cola started in 1886, and Pepsi started in 1898, no energy drinks like Rock Star, or Red Bull, very little ways to process foods, so no flavored ice cream or anything like what we have. I do urge caution in making the WoW more precise, what if one day there is a new drink or food that doesn’t have what is stated, but is still bad for you? Would it be “okay” since it is not in the Wow, or not?

[Jason_J]

Compared to one cup of coffee (90-160mg of caffeine), chocolate averages about 30mg of caffeine, which I would consider negligible. But then the WofW is not really about caffeine, or in my opinion, health; it is an obedience commandment.

M.

I agree. I was actually telling one of my friends this (he was trying to explain the WoW to a coworker), but I guess he didn't really "like" that answer.

[beefche]

It would be nice for the Prophet to be clear about the WoW, back in Joseph Smith’s time; there was no soda, Coca-Cola started in 1886, and Pepsi started in 1898, no energy drinks like Rock Star, or Red Bull, very little ways to process foods, so no flavored ice cream or anything like what we have. I do urge caution in making the WoW more precise, what if one day there is a new drink or food that doesn’t have what is stated, but is still bad for you? Would it be “okay” since it is not in the Wow, or not?

I don't think you will ever see the church be more definite. Just like they don't define "income" when discussing tithing. The thing is, baptized members of the LDS church have the gift of the Holy Ghost. It is your privlege to ponder and pray over what you believe is healthy or not and then receive confirmation from the Spirit on your choices. The First Presidency cannot take that away from you.

[pam]

It advises against hot drinks....so I don't have hot coffee, hot tea, or hot chocolate.

It is entirely within your right to abstain from hot chocolate as well. However, I just want to clarify for those that might be investigating or lurking that the Word of Wisdom does not tell us to abstain from hot chocolate.

This is directly from lds.org:

Tea and coffee (see D&C 89:9; latter-day prophets have taught that the term “hot drinks,” as written in this verse, refers to tea and coffee).

[RMGuy]

Good clarification Pam. Thank you.

-RM

[cooling]

Maybe it's because I'm an outsider and all, but I'm confused. It seems like half the responses are saying the WoW is all about obedience and that's why it's in place, but the other half is saying you have to decide for yourself and it's not up to the church leaders. If you're interpreting direct I can't find anything at all about coffee or tea flavored ice cream. Ice cream is about as far from "hot drink" as you can get.

On the cooking of alcohol (from a recent study by Ochef): "The conventional wisdom accepted by just about everyone in the food world is that all the alcohol you add to a dish evaporates or dissipates during cooking. It’s wrong. In fact, you have to cook something for a good three hours to eradicate virtually all traces of alcohol. And some cooking methods are less effective at removing alcohol than just letting it stand out uncovered overnight. A study conducted by the US Department of Agriculture’s Nutrient Data Laboratory calculated the percentage of alcohol remaining in a dish based on various cooking methods. The results are as follows: Simmered for 15 minutes 40%, 30 minutes 35%, 1 hour 25%"

Just a heads up. I only know this because I had a friend that absolutely could not have alcohol in his system for health reasons (he couldn't even use mouthwash) and we looked up the cooking times needed to eliminate it completely. Eventually we decided it wasn't worth the risk.

[Justice]

There is no consensus. However, there is a rough understanding that, it seems, most in the Church agree to. (Translation: This is how Vort sees things.)

Iced tea/coffee: No. The Word of Wisdom has been interpreted as referring to tea and coffee when it speaks of "hot drinks", whether or not they are actually hot. Iced tea or coffee is a blatant violation.

Coffee/tea flavored ice cream: Marginal, but probably not a Word of Wisdom violation. I avoid it for Word of Wisdom reasons, and also because I think coffee and tea taste nasty.

Cooking with alcohol: Not a problem. Adding some vanilla extract to your cookie recipe is simply not the same as partaking of "strong drink", even though (in the US) vanilla extract is typically made by soaking vanilla beans in pure ethanol or very high proof whiskey or vodka.

There you have it -- Vort's Last Word on the subject! (Until I speak more words, anyway.)

I second your comments, so they yet live!

I'd also like to add that the "spirit" of this law may be to avoid things that are not only harmful, but addictive. We have a hard enough time overcoming the world without having to do so through addiction.

[Justice]

Compared to one cup of coffee (90-160mg of caffeine), chocolate averages about 30mg of caffeine, which I would consider negligible. But then the WofW is not really about caffeine, or in my opinion, health; it is an obedience commandment.

M.

You hit the nail on the head that it's not about caffeine. But, the revelation as a whole certainly is about health, both physical and spiritual. Avoiding harmful or addictive substances or foods and drinks can certainly help one overcome themselves (personal desires)... if that is their goal.

There are many parts of the WoW that may be more directly health related than the hot drinks, like grains and such, but the hot drinks wouldn't be mentioned if there wasn't something health related to them. All of God's commandments are "obedience commandments," if I understand you right.