Question about free agency

[questioning_seeker]

Did we choose to have free agency? If we chose to have it, then we clearly already had the ability to choose so of what use was the gift of free agency if we already had that ability? If we did not choose to have it, then it was thrust upon us. Having the ability to choose thrust upon us would be completely opposed to the purpose and intent of the gift.

[pam]

In the pre-existence we were presented with 2 plans. Those of us who chose Christ' plan chose to have agency. Those who chose Christ have/had the opportunity to come to earth to gain a body. Satan's plan was to force everyone to do good.

[pam]

I just want to add something about using of the term "free agency."

"Free" agency

The term free agency is commonly used, and has traditionally been interpreted as meaning that individuals have the ability to choose their actions freely. Many leaders of the LDS Church have pointed out that the term "free agency" should not be interpreted to mean that agency does not have consequences, but rather that agency is fraught with risk and choices (the result of the exercise of agency) determine eternal destination. Some church manuals avoid the term "free agency" and instead say simply "agency." Some church leaders favor the term moral agency.

[questioning_seeker]

Thanks Pam, but your reply simply reinforces my question - you say we chose free agency, thereby implying that we already had the ability to choose and make wise choices - so why did we need to come here if we already possessed those important abilities? I've always been taught that one of the purposes of mortality was to learn how to make wise choices but it seems as if we knew how to do that before we got here.

[pam]

Thanks Pam, but your reply simply reinforces my question - you say we chose free agency, thereby implying that we already had the ability to choose and make wise choices - so why did we need to come here if we already possessed those important abilities? I've always been taught that one of the purposes of mortality was to learn how to make wise choices but it seems as if we knew how to do that before we got here.

Very good question.

Part of our Heavenly Father's plan of salvation is that we come to earth to gain a body. To experience mortality and progress towards eternal life. Remember that there is a veil of forgetfulness between our pre-mortal life and our mortal life. While we may have known how to make choices, we came to earth without that knowledge. Or perhaps better not remembering that knowledge. We had to learn to make good choices and to practice that throughout our mortal life.

[MrShorty]

I wonder how much of this is about exercising free agency based on faith rather than knowledge. In this life, we choose based on faith. Faith is such an important principle, that I wonder if part of the answer to your question lies there.

[tubaloth]

Agency is part of how the Universe runs. I guess you could stay it was "thrust" onto us, but there wasn't any other options. The default option is to have Agnecy, or to have the ablity to make choices. We always had agency because there is no other way of doing things.

As Pam said there was two plans. Heavenly Fathers plan uses Agency to help us learn and grown and to become all we want. It was Satan's Plan that wanted to destroy agency, in a way "thrust" his own will on our choices. Satan would make the choice not us. But Satan had Agency to make that choice.

So to your questions, it makes the assumption that there was something else before agency. We have no source for such an assumption. Agency was always there.

[estradling75]

In the premortal life we had agency. Part of the test in the premortal life was to see what we would do with it. I think it is pretty clear at that time we had a pretty strong foundation of proof or evidence of what god wanted us to do. And still quite a few chose differently.

Those who chose wisely then got to advance to a harder form of the same test. We got a body to master and we still have to choose, but now its by faith

[james12]

To further tubaloth's point that, "Agency was always there."

The Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Agency states: "Agency is an essential ingredient of being human, "inherent in the spirit of man" (McKay, p. 366) both in the premortal spirit existence (D&C 29:36) and in mortality. No being can possess sensibility, rationality, and a capacity for happiness without it (2 Ne. 2:11-13, 23; D&C 93:30)."

From D&C93:29-30 we read that Intelligence was not made and that Intelligence is independent in that sphere which God has placed it, to act for itself. It appears that a core ingredient in independent existence is the ability to understand and make rational choices.

Based on the above statements the question might then become, "What was the point of the garden of Eden and Adam's and Eve's choice to eat the fruit?" I would say that it was to have an experience separate from God. If Adam and Eve were with God why would they make a wrong choice? They needed to know through their own experience the difference between good and evil.

[AngelPalmoni]

Our Spirit bodies have darkness in them which aloud us the ability to choose. Light and Darkness

[rameumptom]

We receive agency to choose right from wrong. It is not really free, as Christ had to pay for it. Agency allows us the ability to return back into God's presence. In the premortal existence, Christ's atonement allowed us a choice to follow God's plan or reject it. In this life, his atonement gives meaning to agency. Without agency, we could choose to return back to God, but not be able to do so. 2 Nephi 2 teaches that with the atonement/plan of God, came opposition. This opposition allows us agency to choose. The atonement creates the ability to choose something other than death and hell.

We have the ability to choose, but only because opposition and a choice is set before us. Without the choice, there is no agency. This was true in the premortal existence, and is true now.

[questioning_seeker]

Some interesting and thought provoking responses, thank you all. I'm attracted to Mr Shorty's line of thinking. I disagree a little with the king of the Lamanites, as I think there was something prior to the ability to choose, and that was the inability to choose, or a very limited ability to choose. Much as a new born baby has a very limited ability to choose, and this ability has to be nurtured and be allowed to grow and develop, I suspect there was a time when we as newly created spirits had very little or no ability to choose, and that this ability had to grow and be nurtured. I think at a certain point, our ability to choose grew to a point where we were able to make an informed decision between Satan and Christ's plan, but that was only one point on the road to the full development of agency. As suggested by Estradling, once we got to that point, we were ready for a harder version of the same test here on earth. This conclusion strikes me as being a little more complete, or more comprehensive, than the usual teaching that one of the reasons why we came to earth was to learn how to make wise choices and to learn how to use our agency. I think it would be more complete to say that one of the reasons why we came to earth was to continue learning how to use our agency, and to further improve our use of agency. Re James12's quote from the Encyclopaedia, I think some conclusions can be drawn from the fact that it uses of the phrase "capacity for happiness" rather than simply "happiness."

[Justice]

As children of Heavenly Father, or as beings of His kind, we have the inherent right to act, and not be acted upon (agency). This is why it is confused with being "free," because we did nothing to earn it. However, as we make bad choices, future choices are limited or no longer possible. This is why it is not considered free. Moral agency comes at the cost of using it wisely. As we follow Satan we slowly give up our agency.

We had agency in the pre-mortal existence, as evident by the fact that Lucifer and his followers exercised their agency to choose a plan contrary to God's will. It was not "given" to us in the pre-mortal life to make such a choice. Making this choice in God's presence meant further progression was limited, or removed.

Once the earth was created and we became dual natured beings (spirit bodies and physical bodies) a way was in place that once we chose contrary to God's will (sin) we would become mortal and therefore be granted a certain "time" to repent and learn to choose God's will (Alma 12 and 42). So, once Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden of Eden God said "thou mayest choose for thyself."

Once we repented and learned to do God's will, or in other words, once we were reborn spiritually, we could them be reborn physically and stand in His presence again to be judged. However, because of sin, we were forever separated from God by a gulf we could not cross on our own (2 different kinds of death). This is why the Savior was sent, to bridge this gulf for us since we could not.

[Blackmarch]

Did we choose to have free agency? If we chose to have it, then we clearly already had the ability to choose so of what use was the gift of free agency if we already had that ability? If we did not choose to have it, then it was thrust upon us. Having the ability to choose thrust upon us would be completely opposed to the purpose and intent of the gift.

If we had chosne to give up free agency we would likely not have come here.

[JudoMinja]

I'd like to feed off ram's statement: "Without the choice, there is no agency".

If we are never presented with the opportunity to make a decision, then there is no agency. So, we can also make the correlation that the MORE choices we have, the more agency we have. This is why, when we make choices that lessen our options our agency is lost. While following God's path may seem restrictive from the outside (keeping the commandments, obeying the WoW and LoC, everything in moderation, paying tithing, etc) choosing to do these things is "freeing" in that it opens the doors for our agency. More choices and opportunities become avaialbe the more we follow God's path.

We develop our agency when we make choices that give us more choices. :) How great is that?

I've actually been thinking about this a lot myself lately, as I am currently reading the "Love and Logic" books. One of the things that is heavily stressed in these books is giving your children choices. It doesn't matter if they are simple, silly choices, as long as they are choices. Something like "Do you want to have fun picking up your toys or not?" might seem like a silly choice to us, but it is empowering to our children. As we present them with more and more choices and allow them to gain a sense of control, they become more amiable and cooperative when it is time for the parent to make a choice.

The more choices we have the more "power" or control we have over our own lives, and the more free we become. But we cannot make a choice if we are never presented with that opportunity. If I always pick out my sons clothes for him, get him dressed, make his breakfast, etc- then I'm never giving him the chance to make any choices and he has no agency. But. If I set out some clothes and let him pick what he wants to wear... if I let him decide what order he wants to put his clothes on in... if I let him decide whether he wants to use the big potty or the potty chair... if I let him pick whether he wants eggs or cereal for breakfast... He now has a great number of choices he can make, all before we head out the door, and he gains a great sense of confidence and self-worth as he makes "good" decisions.

This life puts us in an environment with "opposition in all things" so that we are constantly presented with choices. When we make "good" choices, we grow and develop in confidence and self-worth as even more choices are presented to us. When we make "bad" choices, we become ensnared in the traps of Satan and our options become limited. Essentially, we are choosing whether we want to be given more agency or have it taken away. Sometimes it may seem easier to have someone else make decisions for us, but the more we give up the control in our lives the more unhappy we become.

Because we need to have choices to have agency, I would say that there was no agency in the pre-existence until we were presented with the Plan of Salvation. Here, we had a choice. We all made the decision to come here, a choice that presented us with even more opportunities to make decisions and to develop our agency.

[qedd]

I have always loved this topic -- thank you questioning_seeker.

A definition of "free agency" that I have liked is something along the lines of "the ability of an agent to act on the choice of free will."

I don't think the topic of free agency is complete without discussing intelligence, free will, and faith. As I see it, in order for one to exercise free agency, the agent must have:

1. Awareness, or the ability to distinguish.

2. Memory, or the ability to record observations made using awareness and the ability to recall such observations.

3. The ability to reason using prior observations and anticipate outcomes.

4. Desire or motivation to achieve some purpose or end.

5. Two or more paths or choices that can be made.

6. The physical, emotional, mental, or spiritual strength, skill, or discipline necessary to execute one or more of the possible choices.

7. A knowledge or awareness of these possible paths or choices.

8. Hope that the choice will lead one to a desired outcome.

9. Belief that the choice is possible and that it will lead to a desired outcome.

With the above the agent is then able to act on his/her choice. Upon acting on the choice, the agent then observes the outcomes which then completes the feedback loop for future choices.

Agency is limited or restricted by:

1. Ignorance.

2. The laws of nature.

3. Violence (the forceful imposition of one agent's will over that of another).

When we speak of the Father's "gift" of free agency given to each of us, I wonder if that "gift" is really the Father helping us learn (dispelling ignorance) the laws of nature, and refusing to forcefully impose his will over us.

A long way of saying I believe we have always had agency (to one degree or another) and that the Father's gift is to help us increase our agency in an effort to help us realize our potential. So yes, we likely could choose to accept the gift or not. Which brings up another question: Did we choose to become His spirit children? Is the acceptance of His gift where He became our "Father"? In other words, did we become His children when we accepted His offer to be our teacher?

Edited September 19, 2011 by qedd

[Traveler]

One of the great problems in discussing important points of doctrine is the use - or misuse of terms in communicating understanding. In this discussion there seems to be a great deal of cross over in the understanding and use or expression of will verses agency. In addition there seems to be some confusion in regards to choice as opposed to agency. The crossover of meaning comes because of common usage where we have lost the distinct differentiation that the terms once possessed.

I would submit that there is a difference between the divine intended understanding of agency in regards to both individual will and selectable choice. I believe agency goes beyond choices of “I want” and has much more to do with discipline and alignment to a “higher” sense or power. Thus the statement by Jesus, “Not my will but thy will be done” is a better understanding in the exercise of agency.

If we understand agency as a connection to higher “intelligence” or light that is accomplished through discipline - I believe we are better aligned to become an agent of light rather than an agent of darkness trying to be a being of light. Note in this analogy there is no agency of “grayness” possible; there is no agency that allows for part light and part darkness. So agency is not just choice but action based on discipline completed in such a way that we become “aligned” with a power or source that is “beyond” us or what we may be capable of in the mere exercise of our will and choice.

With this understanding we can see the importance of G-d granting unto us power to become G-ds like unto him as divine agents and his work is not to make us subjects of his will or faith in him to “take care” of us and supply to us our every need. Such a reward would destroy our agency. The great difference is in our discipleship or discipline (beyond choice or will) we move beyond ourselves, as G-d has to become disciplined in the arts, craft, manners and genus of G-dliness.

The Traveler

Edited September 19, 2011 by Traveler

[Vort]

Did we choose to have free agency? If we chose to have it, then we clearly already had the ability to choose so of what use was the gift of free agency if we already had that ability? If we did not choose to have it, then it was thrust upon us. Having the ability to choose thrust upon us would be completely opposed to the purpose and intent of the gift.

Did we choose to think? If so, we must already have been able to think. If not, such a lack of self-awareness runs directly counter to the very idea of thinking.

It's a word game, seeker. Don't get entangled in word games. Agency is a gift from God, but the ability to choose is intrinsic to the children of God. God granted to us our agency in the sense that he provided a canvas upon which we can paint. The palette is intrinsic.

[RescueMom]

I think our agency grows as we mature as spirits, just like it does with children. At 3 and 4 we let our kids dress themselves, sure they can choose to wear the purple socks with the orange shorts and lime green shirt...and think they are stylin'. But they still don't buy the clothes, we parents do. And as they grow up we take them shopping, they get to pick the clothes they wear within our guidelines and guidance. And finally they are able to go to the mall, pick our own clothes and not have parental supervision at all. This is what this life is...we are at the mall, we've been given the instructions (scriptures, ect.) but we are shopping all by ourselves, we can choose anything, it's all there. The trick is to choose wisely, so when we get home we can continue to grow and prove we are worthy of continuing to make wise choices.

So, IMHO, we have been making choices for a long time, long before this life and I would guess since the moment we became Children of our Heavenly Father.

And to me the choices we made in the pre-existance seem pretty cut and dried now, we made the correct choices if we are here. But that does not change the choices we make today right now, we can't just rely on our pre-existence choices and think they will carry us through, they won't. They can help guide us and inspire us, but right now we have a whole new set of choices, this life is about learning and growing via our choices. Some of us have to make the wrong choices to realize we need to make the right choices, but through the Atonement we can correct those choices.

[Justice]

Agency is directly realted to our choice to follow God or Satan. Choices that align us to one or the other are what exercise the agency spoken of in scripture.

Whether to paint the bathroom blue or green is not such a choice.

Whether to give up a sin or continue in it is such a choice.

[questioning_seeker]

Many responses here have influenced my thinking and furthered my understanding, so thank you all for that.

[WindRiver]

In the pre-existence we were presented with 2 plans. Those of us who chose Christ' plan chose to have agency. Those who chose Christ have/had the opportunity to come to earth to gain a body. Satan's plan was to force everyone to do good.

It wasn't a meeting for everyone to input their ideas for a plan to consider. Lucifer wasn't asked to present a plan....

Technically there were not TWO plans. There was ONE Plan, Heavenly Father's plan. Jesus and Lucifer(perhaps others?) volunteered to take the job but Lucifer wanted to CHANGE The Plan and take away our agency, which of course is impossible since Agency is an eternal law, not something that can be given or taken away, only infringed.

Messing with a PERFECT plan isn't really presenting an alternate plan, it was open rebellion, and thus the fact that Lucifer and his followers were cast out.

[Vort]

It wasn't a meeting for everyone to input their ideas for a plan to consider. Lucifer wasn't asked to present a plan....

Technically there were not TWO plans. There was ONE Plan, Heavenly Father's plan. Jesus and Lucifer(perhaps others?) volunteered to take the job but Lucifer wanted to CHANGE The Plan and take away our agency, which of course is impossible since Agency is an eternal law, not something that can be given or taken away, only infringed.

Messing with a PERFECT plan isn't really presenting an alternate plan, it was open rebellion, and thus the fact that Lucifer and his followers were cast out.

To me, this point seems both important and obvious. Yet I have been making it for years, and only rarely does anyone seem to recognize the importance of this point. The false "two-plan theory" of premortality is so deeply embedded in Mormon folklore and the LDS subconscious that it may be impossible to uproot it without a prophet or apostle explicitly announcing in a General Conference, "Hey, folks! There were never two plans! There was only the one plan, and Satan tried to amend it to gain glory! It was REBELLION, and those who rebelled were cast out! It was never, 'Okay, look, you need to select this or that'."

[SteveVH]

From my viewpoint, free will, along with intellect, reason and the ability to love, is an attrribute of being created in the image and likeness of God. It is part of our being and is a gift. Since I don't believe in a premortal existence the OP's question is moot as it relates to me, but I think it is a legitimate question as it relates to both Mormon theology and anthropology.

This same scenario exists concerning the choice of Adam and Eve. If they had to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in order to have "free will choice" then how did they make the choice to disobey God in the first place? If they did not know that they were choosing to disobey God then no sin could have been imputed by their actions. This seems to me to be the same question.

[volgadon]

I think there was something prior to the ability to choose, and that was the inability to choose, or a very limited ability to choose.

Even a limited ability to choose is ability to choose.