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Why a vineyard?

The Chapter heading says,"Jacob quotes Zenos relative to the allegory of the tame and wild olive trees—They are a likeness of Israel and the Gentiles-" but the chapter talks about a vineyard rather than an Olive Grove and/or an Olive Orchard...

" 3 For behold, thus saith the Lord, I will liken thee, O house of aIsrael, like unto a tame bolive tree, which a man took and nourished in his cvineyard; and it grew, and waxed old, and began to decay." Jacob 5:3

Jacob 5*

I know that The Book of Mormon is true...:)

Thanks for your help!!!

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Why a vineyard?

The Chapter heading says,"Jacob quotes Zenos relative to the allegory of the tame and wild olive trees—They are a likeness of Israel and the Gentiles-" but the chapter talks about a vineyard rather than an Olive Grove and/or an Olive Orchard...

" 3 For behold, thus saith the Lord, I will liken thee, O house of aIsrael, like unto a tame bolive tree, which a man took and nourished in his cvineyard; and it grew, and waxed old, and began to decay." Jacob 5:3

Jacob 5*

I know that The Book of Mormon is true...:)

Thanks for your help!!!

"Vineyard" is how the KJV translates "kerem" which can be where either grapes or olives are grown.

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Why a vineyard?

The Chapter heading says,"Jacob quotes Zenos relative to the allegory of the tame and wild olive trees—They are a likeness of Israel and the Gentiles-" but the chapter talks about a vineyard rather than an Olive Grove and/or an Olive Orchard...

" 3 For behold, thus saith the Lord, I will liken thee, O house of aIsrael, like unto a tame bolive tree, which a man took and nourished in his cvineyard; and it grew, and waxed old, and began to decay." Jacob 5:3

Jacob 5*

I know that The Book of Mormon is true...:)

Thanks for your help!!!

Grapes and olives thrive in the same microclimate and similar soil types, and growing the two together is an ancient practice (which, interestingly enough, is catching on in the US now). So olive groves were (and are) commonly used as vineyards.

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Why a vineyard?

The Chapter heading says,"Jacob quotes Zenos relative to the allegory of the tame and wild olive trees—They are a likeness of Israel and the Gentiles-" but the chapter talks about a vineyard rather than an Olive Grove and/or an Olive Orchard...

" 3 For behold, thus saith the Lord, I will liken thee, O house of aIsrael, like unto a tame bolive tree, which a man took and nourished in his cvineyard; and it grew, and waxed old, and began to decay." Jacob 5:3

Jacob 5*

I know that The Book of Mormon is true...:)

Thanks for your help!!!

because that imagery was familiar to the jews back then and so they could easily relate to it. Quite likely it was still appropriate during jacobs time.
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It's odd how people are drawn to the same topics. This has been a topic that has interested me also.

What I have been able to deduce is what has already been mentioned. Olive trees (for crop purposes) were generally grown among grape vines. If you look at farms that grow olives even today, many or most are still called vineyards. It's interesting that they also produce grapes. Sure, soil and climate are the obvious reason why. But, it's also interesting that "wine" or grape juice was originally used to represent Christ's blood, and olive oil is used as a symbol of the spirit and healing. Both are ran through the same presses to get juice or oil, like "Gethsemane."

This is the "simple" of it, but I'm still searching for a deeper meaning or symbol. Maybe there's not one.

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Both are ran through the same presses to get juice or oil, like "Gethsemane."

Rarely was that the case, it would have resulted in very inferior wine/oil. If you pressed grapes the same way you pressed oil you would release unbearably bitter juices from the seeds. OTOH, you can't crush olives with your feet, at least I wouldn't suggest trying. In almost every ancient site in Israel dedicated olive and grape presses were found. Gethsemene, despite the popular etymology, doesn't mean olive press.

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Gethsemene, despite the popular etymology, doesn't mean olive press.

Wikipedia, font of all truth, claims:

Gethsemane appears in the Greek of the Gospel of Matthew[1] and the Gospel of Mark[2] as Γεθσημανἱ (Gethsēmani). The name is derived from the Assyrian ܓܕܣܡܢ (Gaṯ-Šmānê), meaning "oil press"

What do you understand the etymology to be?

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Rarely was that the case, it would have resulted in very inferior wine/oil.

Every place I've looked up says otherwise. The presses were not hard like stone, they were covered with something thick and softer, like animal sinew, skin, or other things, and it would not damage the seeds or pits.

Maybe I should look at what you're looking at. Have any links?

I'm also curious to see your etymology of the word. Every single definition I've seen says it meant oil press, olive press, or wine press. I haven't seen anything else.

There are times when it means a "place or estate" but it is always in reference to the fact that it is located on a vineyard and it has a press.

Edited by Justice
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Every place I've looked up says otherwise. The presses were not hard like stone, they were covered with something thick and softer, like animal sinew, skin, or other things, and it would not damage the seeds or pits.

Damaging olive pits is very difficult. Grape seeds, OTOH, break easily, which is why they were pressed by feet. Olives had to be crushed, the pulp then placed in reed baskets and pressed by stone wieghts supended from a heavy beam.

I wrote this for a friend a while back.

"A gath was the pit in which workers would tread barefoot on the grapes without crushing the seeds. To crush them would have made the wine unbearably bitter. From the gath the juice flowed through a filter into a smaller pit below. It was then stored in sealed containers until it fermented. Using the same pits for both would have resulted in lousy wine and lousy oil due to sediments at the bottom of the pit. One of the qualities prized anciently was that oil did not mix. It remained separate and pure. Exodus Rabbah 36 uses this as a metaphor for Israel. As oil doesn't mix, neither does Israel mix with the gentiles. The process for extracting oil differed from that for wine. You can't crush olives with your feet. The rocks inside the olives are too hard. Olives were placed in a stone called a yam (sea) and a round stone called a memel was run over them until they were reduced to a pulp. The pulp was collected in reed baskets which were then pressed by a heavy beam weighted down with stones. The beam was called a bad and this gave its name to the oil press- beit ha-bad (place of the beam). The liquid flowed into a smaller pit and the oil was skimmed off the top."

Maybe I should look at what you're looking at. Have any links?

Mostly in Hebrew, but a picture is worth a thousand words.

The yam and and memel Facebook

The beam ???? ????? ??? ???

The entire process, from a 16th c. Italian print ??? ??

A round wine press at Hurbat Akav in Judea, this was a rare and advanced form of wine press øîú äðãéá

I'm also curious to see your etymology of the word. Every single definition I've seen says it meant oil press, olive press, or wine press. I haven't seen anything else.

There are times when it means a "place or estate" but it is always in reference to the fact that it is located on a vineyard and it has a press.

The question is, why would a word almost never used in connection with olive oil give its name to a place, instead of a typical oil term? The alternative etymology, which is far more convincing, is Gad-Shemnei - the bank or escarpment of oils. We have manuscript evidence for gad, as well as the "d" morphing into "th". The best reference is David Rosenthal, "Gat Shemanim, Gad Shemanim, Gad Yavan" [in Hebrew], Cathedra 67 (1993).

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An escarpment??

No, "_______ of oils"

... whatever it may be.

Also, use this link, then scroll down to the first picture on the left of "an ancient wine press used in Israel."

Wine press - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The area was designed for pressing grapes and olives, and is called "a wine press." This is one, as you say, where they used their feet. I have also seen ancient "presses" made of wood and other material. I will do more research to see if I can find exactly when and where they were used. I know I saw one used in Israel, but I don't know exactly when.

Gethsemane was such a place. It was a vineyard where there were olive trees, and had a press (probably similar to the one in this picture). It stands to reason that an "escarpment" would make a natural setting for such a "press."

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No, "_______ of oils"

... whatever it may be.

As I said, there is certainly olive symbolism, but it doesn't mean that Gethsemane translates to "olive press."

Also, use this link, then scroll down to the first picture on the left of "an ancient wine press used in Israel."

Wine press - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The area was designed for pressing grapes and olives, and is called "a wine press." This is one, as you say, where they used their feet. I have also seen ancient "presses" made of wood and other material. I will do more research to see if I can find exactly when and where they were used. I know I saw one used in Israel, but I don't know exactly when.

Mechanical presses for wine weren't known in Israel until the 4th c. and are a Byzantine innovation. It would have been for secondary use at any rate. In Mishnaic times a millstone was rolled over the leftovers, but only after the good wine was cleared away. In essence, this was done so as to make the most of things. Hardly important enough to name a place after, nor did they use the actual oil presses. What you see in the picture is a gath. A press is a machbesh. Not the same term at all.

Gethsemane was such a place. It was a vineyard where there were olive trees, and had a press (probably similar to the one in this picture). It stands to reason that an "escarpment" would make a natural setting for such a "press."

Forgive the pun, but you'll be hard-pressed to find a place which didn't have both. THat doesn't make a gath into an olive-press.

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I've learned a lot while discussing this topic. I appreciate the opportunity, Volgadon.

Every etymology I looked at on every single site I searched was very consistent with Gethsemane meaning "wine press." I realize now that it was talking about a "gath" as you say, but still a wine press. It was also a place where they pressed olives. It's apparent to me now that they probably didn't use the same device for both grape pressing and olive pressing. I'm not sure what I remember seeing where they had a softer substance coating the grinding stone in an olive press. It sure seems like someone was using it for grapes also, but I can't be certain until I find it again. Maybe it wasn't until after the 4th century, but I'm convinced that there was grape pressing and olive pressing done in Israel at the time of Christ, and that Gethsemane, if not originally but as a later slang, was a term understood to mean this.

Anyway, thanks for the discussion.

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