11th Article Of Faith


Lindy
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THE ARTICLES OF FAITH

OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

11- We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

This is a lot of who I am and what I believe.... according to the dictates of my own conscience.

And I will allow all men the same privilege according to theirs.

I just needed to post it.

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THE ARTICLES OF FAITH

OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

11- We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

This is a lot of who I am and what I believe.... according to the dictates of my own conscience.

And I will allow all men the same privilege according to theirs.

I just needed to post it.

I am glad you feel that way. With all that is going on in the world it would seem that certain peoples are rejected just of their beliefs. I can accept a person regardless of their beliefs - if anything it is evil deeds that cause I cannot accept.

The Traveler

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Thanks Traveler, I'm glad someone understands who I am

I was criticized for being so accepting of others and to be honest... it hurt. It made me feel like I was wrong in what I believe in, and how I look at things.... but I won't change who I am or what I believe in just because someone thinks I am wrong. If I am wrong in how I feel, than I am wrong.... and I'll take the consequences for it on Judgement Day.

I think I more fully realize how many feel having others attack their faith, their opinions, their truths as they see it and apply it to their lives. How can a man try to take away the essence of what another man is inside by condemning him/her for what they truely believe?

Now I will add that there is a difference between those who go to extreme to try to get attention, recongnition or exaltation (in the name of God) and those who are peace loving and people loving and serve their God (whoever He is in their eyes) and others, the best they know how.

There are various forms of Terrorism.... those physical acts of violence, and the mental/psychological acts that try to destroy from the inside out.

I probably don't make any sense... but I needed to vent

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THE ARTICLES OF FAITH - OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS: 11- We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

This is a lot of who I am and what I believe.... according to the dictates of my own conscience. And I will allow all men the same privilege according to theirs. I just needed to post it.

It is interesting that such a statement would be found in the midst of a church's official canon. Most denominations post what they believe about God, Jesus, Scripture, etc. This is the first I have seen in which a church officially recommends religious pluralism, presumeably as a stance for governments to take.

It is an easy guess that the early persecution against Mormons helped inspire this stance. Yet, it is still curious. Beyond the obvious opposition against state-sanctioned persecution of religion, what does this article mean to you individually, and as a faith community?

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Thanks Traveler, I'm glad someone understands who I am

I was criticized for being so accepting of others and to be honest... it hurt. It made me feel like I was wrong in what I believe in, and how I look at things.... but I won't change who I am or what I believe in just because someone thinks I am wrong. If I am wrong in how I feel, than I am wrong.... and I'll take the consequences for it on Judgement Day.

I think I more fully realize how many feel having others attack their faith, their opinions, their truths as they see it and apply it to their lives. How can a man try to take away the essence of what another man is inside by condemning him/her for what they truely believe?

Now I will add that there is a difference between those who go to extreme to try to get attention, recongnition or exaltation (in the name of God) and those who are peace loving and people loving and serve their God (whoever He is in their eyes) and others, the best they know how.

There are various forms of Terrorism.... those physical acts of violence, and the mental/psychological acts that try to destroy from the inside out.

I probably don't make any sense... but I needed to vent

Allowing a person to believe what they will does not mean that you agree with them - nor does it mean that you will not allow them opportunity to hear something different - it just means that they can believe what they will.

BTW - I am personally concerned with those that come to a forum of a religion or among a particular religion to voice their religion and not to listen to those to whom they speak. I see no problem in asking someone that is not LDS that comes among LDS only to speak against the LDS to leave and if necessary by force. I do not see that as counter to freedom of speech or freedom of assembly. If someone does not like what you are teaching and you are on their territory they have every right to ask you to be quiet or leave. If you are within your territory then you have the right to say whatever you want as long as those to whom you speak have every right to leave when ever they want.

Every one has an opinion - not everybody that disagrees with you is your enemy and not everyone that agrees with you is really your friend. Sometimes a friend will tell you things you may not what to hear and sometimes your enemy will say thing that you do want to hear.

Good luck figuring out who is who.

The Traveler

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Guest ApostleKnight

This is turning into a cool thread. What prompted this topic Lindy?

Incidentally, it's interesting that the great Jewish scholar Moses Maimonides penned thirteen articles of belief called the "Shloshah-Asar Ikkarim" in the twelfth century which all start with: "I believe..." and expand on Judaism. Joseph Smith did hire a rabbi to teach Hebrew in the school of the prophets, so I think it's likely that Joseph read Maimonides' articles of belief, and adapted the concept to the LDS theology. Pretty cool.

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Beyond the obvious opposition against state-sanctioned persecution of religion, what does this article mean to you individually, and as a faith community?

You know PC I never thought of it as an opposition against state-sanctioned persecution of religion.... If anything I think that perhaps the persecution of the mormons years ago might have helped inspire this particular article of faith. It would be hard for us to ask that we have the right to worship as we feel right if we don't allow that same right to others.

What does it mean to me personally? It is a big part of who I am, who I have always been.... everyone has the right to think, feel, pray, worship as they see fit. Religion wise....whatever is right and true for them shouldn't infringe on anyone else. Faith is a personal thing... no one can tell you HOW, WHEN, WHERE, WHY or to WHOM

But I will agree with Travelor also...

If someone does not like what you are teaching and you are on their territory they have every right to ask you to be quiet or leave. If you are within your territory then you have the right to say whatever you want as long as those to whom you speak have every right to leave when ever they want.

this is a very fair statement. And out of respect for the territory of another religion... those who want to voice their oppositon or make a statement of how they feel about something should remember where they are and show respect in doing so. That I don't have a problem with....

Trav..you also said

Every one has an opinion - not everybody that disagrees with you is your enemy and not everyone that agrees with you is really your friend. Sometimes a friend will tell you things you may not what to hear and sometimes your enemy will say thing that you do want to hear.

Good luck figuring out who is who

Your right... it is hard at times... but. sometimes you just have to listen to your friends... when you really want to listen to your enemies... and it's been a rough road trying to figure out who is who. But I think I have a pretty good handle on it now :)

That's what a good friend is for...to protect you from yourself at times.

AK.... you asked what prompted this topic?

I got chewed on for allowing others to have a different truth than the TRUTH as I know it. It upset me because I have always tried to believe that how I feel about free agency, to choose how we live our lives, how or what we believe in, is a personal choice. To be told I was wrong for what I feel, for what I believe, just made me angry. If it was someone outside the church who said this to me.... it wouldn't have made me 1/2 as crazy but it was said to me by someone who is LDS.

And I'm not naming names... I've been an emotional wreck for the past week anyway..... and what was said was just the straw that broke the camels back. I don't' take lightly to being told that what I believe in is wrong. Because it's WHAT I believe in... and I refuse to change who I am because others dont' see the truth as I see it.

THAT my dear AK is what prompted this topic :D

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I want to stick with the organizational outcomes of this article. Individuals can believe and practice religion as they see fit. No arguments. However, what happens when a government says no? For example, if Iran says no to Christian gospel-telling, or China--must Christians avoid evangelism in those places? I've understood the New Testament example to be that Christians would be willing to face jail, rather than failing to evangelize. Yet, I've heard some Mormons say no--that missionary work (be it official or otherwise) is not to take place in countries that do not allow it.

THOUGHTS? Especially as it relates to Article 11?

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Guest ApostleKnight

PC, we also believe in obeying, honoring and sustaining the law...not just American law. If Iraq says no open proselytizing, we respect that because if we had members of the LDS Church in Iraq we'd expect them to obey the laws of that land. Then again, if the Lord appeared in shekhinah-like glory and commanded me to mountain bike through Iran in a white shirt and tie with a bundle of bibles and books of mormon on my back, I'd do it.

Guess it depends. :)

AK.... you asked what prompted this topic?

I got chewed on for allowing others to have a different truth than the TRUTH as I know it. It upset me because

So did this occur on this board? Or was it in your everyday life? I'm just curious because I know I disagreed with you about some stuff recently and if I said something that upset you I'd seriously want to be square with you and get it straightened out. Did I offend?

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AK- No, it wasn't you, if it was... LOL you would know by now ;)

PC- I think that it kinda falls under what was said before about "territory" and what AK said...

we believe in obeying, honoring and sustaining the law..... not just here but everywhere else too. So if we are in someone else's territory, another relm of religion.... we should honor their land and their set rules as such.

I don't know how that would apply to holding something like a family home evening in your own home, or place of residence, and inviting a friend over to participate would be wrong? I would think that, that would be different than tracting the neighborhood knocking on doors. It is still sharing a little about who you are and what you believe in, but behind your own doors. Or would that be considered more "underground" and defying the rules of the land? I really don't know. I am more of a rebel when it comes to things I take to heart that others may not agree with... and I'll still stand for what I believe in... come what may. I would have been right in the middle of the Underground Railroad back in the era of slavery.

Besides showing respect for another country by learning their laws and regulations... it would also keep you safe.

oh.... and not having to prove stupidity on your part by pleading ignorance ;)

even in the states, laws and rules and regs are different from state to state....I mean there are basic federal laws...but it can be confusing when the little things.... like a free right on a red light after stopping....change and you don't know it till you get pulled over :rolleyes:

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PC, we also believe in obeying, honoring and sustaining the law...not just American law. If Iraq says no open proselytizing, we respect that because if we had members of the LDS Church in Iraq we'd expect them to obey the laws of that land. Then again, if the Lord appeared in shekhinah-like glory and commanded me to mountain bike through Iran in a white shirt and tie with a bundle of bibles and books of mormon on my back, I'd do it.

Guess it depends. :)

Since it depends, I'll give you a specific. In the People's Republic of China, atheism is the state religion. A few religious organizations exist officially. For Protestants, the Three Self Patriotic Movement exists. There are usually four pastors on a church board--one of whom is an atheist, and a member of the Communist party. All sermons/lessons must be approved by the committee. Members of the church must be registered with the government. Certain theological topics are off-limits.

I've been told (no I cannot verify--so use your best intuition) that as many as 90% of the Christians in China are unregistered, and attend unapproved meetings. Estimates of the true number of Christian believers in China range from the 40s to well over 100 million. Of course, the government says that the 3-4 million registered members are all there is.

Another "I've been told"--as many as 90% of the foreign English teachers in China are there with at least some sense of being a Christian missionary. Most obey the clear-cut rules, but engage in private one on one or small group religious studies, depending on the level of tolerance in their region. The further north, the more careful they have to be.

Call this phenomenon an "open ruse," because intelligent participants know that the government knows what is going on. In one negotiation, the missionary agency was negotiating with the government, and the Chinese wanted to add a clause that said the teachers would not discuss religion on or off duty. The agency balked, saying that no Chinese exchange teacher would accept a clause restricting their right to personally discuss political views or views on atheism. The Chinese government conceded the point, and left the clause out.

So: No missionaries with white shirts and ties riding bicycles. No southern evangelists with cowboy hats preaching hellfire and brimstone under big tents. BUT, in a manner that might be considered a violation of the spirit of the law, Christians are communicating the gospel in a land that is officially unwelcoming.

Any thoughts from anyone on this, especially in light of Article 11. I might even argue that these Christian teachers are allowing their Chinese students to experience the full meaning of the article.

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Any thoughts from anyone on this, especially in light of Article 11. I might even argue that these Christian teachers are allowing their Chinese students to experience the full meaning of the article.

That has since changed, otherwise the LDS Church would not have been able to build a Temple there.

http://www.lds.org/temples/main/0,11204,1912-1-84-0,00.html

After you get to this site, click on Temple District on the left. This will tell you what "Districts" are served by the Temple. All of those districts have Meetinghouses.

The LDS Church does not build Meeting Houses, Temples nor do they send Proselytizing Missionaries where the governments do not and will not allow them. We send Working Missionaries. PC, this was brought up in another thread some time ago.

Those working Missionaries are: Doctors, Nurses, Teachers. Not just school teachers, but teachers of nearly anything you can think of. A friend of my family went to China to teach mothers how to be good parents - she taught them the same way she taught mothers in her own state -Washington State. She had to adapt to the Chinese way though. So in essence they also taught her, where to shop, how to dress, how to clothe a child. She did not keep her religion a secret - but she also did not carry around her standard works. When asked outright - she answered out right. If anyone asked for more information, she invited them to her home, where she could then show them the BofM and the rest of the standard works. This is where Every Member a Missionary comes into play. By the way we act, talk, dress, re-act, etc., we are living examples of the LDS Faith.

Another couple my family is friends with went to China to teach English as a second language, and to teach accounting. He is a retired Banker - she is a retired CPA.

In the previous thread, I listed the LDS sight with all the positions that the LDS Church needed Senior Adults for. The countries, states, etc. where they were needed. This is where it is #98301

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THE ARTICLES OF FAITH

OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

11- We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

This is a lot of who I am and what I believe.... according to the dictates of my own conscience.

And I will allow all men the same privilege according to theirs. I just needed to post it.

Thanks Lindy for posting this.

All of us LDS members need to remember this a lot more than we do. I know I do. We also need to read and ponder ALL of the Articles of Faith.

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That has since changed, otherwise the LDS Church would not have been able to build a Temple there.

http://www.lds.org/temples/main/0,11204,1912-1-84-0,00.html

After you get to this site, click on Temple District on the left. This will tell you what "Districts" are served by the Temple. All of those districts have Meetinghouses.

Two notes about this temple: It was built about two years before Hong Kong was handed over to the Chinese government (it had been a British colony). Also, although Hong Kong is part of China now, it remains a Special Administrative Region, and is under the promised 50 years of "Two systems, one country." In other words, what is allowed in Hong Kong is not the norm throughout China.

The LDS Church does not build Meeting Houses, Temples nor do they send Proselytizing Missionaries where the governments do not and will not allow them. We send Working Missionaries. PC, this was brought up in another thread some time ago.

Yes it was. So, I suppose my question is, what of these "workers" who go? Might they offer an individual or small-group setting, if the opportunity arose? Could they teach some lessons to willing ears?

Those working Missionaries are: Doctors, Nurses, Teachers. Not just school teachers, but teachers of nearly anything you can think of. A friend of my family went to China to teach mothers how to be good parents - she taught them the same way she taught mothers in her own state -Washington State. She had to adapt to the Chinese way though. So in essence they also taught her, where to shop, how to dress, how to clothe a child. She did not keep her religion a secret - but she also did not carry around her standard works. When asked outright - she answered out right. If anyone asked for more information, she invited them to her home, where she could then show them the BofM and the rest of the standard works. This is where Every Member a Missionary comes into play. By the way we act, talk, dress, re-act, etc., we are living examples of the LDS Faith.

This sounds very much like what I was getting at. None of the teachers are going to China as evangelists, yet all hope to do some 'personal' or 'friendship' evangelism. For a definition of these terms, look to your own paragraph above.

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That has since changed, otherwise the LDS Church would not have been able to build a Temple there.

http://www.lds.org/temples/main/0,11204,1912-1-84-0,00.html

After you get to this site, click on Temple District on the left. This will tell you what "Districts" are served by the Temple. All of those districts have Meetinghouses.

Two notes about this temple: It was built about two years before Hong Kong was handed over to the Chinese government (it had been a British colony). Also, although Hong Kong is part of China now, it remains a Special Administrative Region, and is under the promised 50 years of "Two systems, one country." In other words, what is allowed in Hong Kong is not the norm throughout China.

My nephew served his mission in Hong Kong & Macau from Feb 2002/Nov. 2003. He was able to tract and speak with people in public and in homes. The LDS church purchased an existing building to conduct meetings/activities.

M.

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My nephew served his mission in Hong Kong & Macau from Feb 2002/Nov. 2003. He was able to tract and speak with people in public and in homes. The LDS church purchased an existing building to conduct meetings/activities. M.

Exactly my point. Both Hong Kong and Macau are Special Administrative Regions, with greater freedoms than in the mainland.

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