Regarding Stephen seeing a physical God

[TimP]

I notice the LDS Church uses a specific set of biblical scriptures to indicate God has a physical body. An avid LDS apologist, Mr. Tim Berman, pressed these scriptures on me quite positively.

Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Acts 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

After much prayer and study I found the English word for ON (expressed as EK in Greek) actually means OUT.

Based on this information the scripture 7:55 reads more properly “and Jesus standing OUT of the right hand of God.”

And 7:56 would correctly read also “and the Son of Man standing OUT the right hand of God.”

There is no indication at all in either scripture as to Stephen seeing God in a physical form.

The Jewish expression of God’s or any authority’s glory, majesty, and all authority is summed up in the position on or at the right hand.

Example 1:

Joseph sought to correct his father Jacob when he had placed his RIGHT HAND on the head of Joseph’s younger son to give him the greater blessing.

Genesis 48:14 And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim's head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh's head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the firstborn.

Genesis 48:17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.

Genesis 48:18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.

Example 2:

Moses praises God for His might in destroying the Egyptians. He uses the allegory of God using His RIGHT HAND of power.

Exodus 15:6 Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.

Exodus 15:12 Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them.

Example 3:

Moses giving Aaron and his sons the authority of the Priesthood. Notice the use of the RIGHT portion of the bodies to indicate power, authority, and authorization.

Exodus 29:20 Then shalt thou kill the ram, and take of his blood, and put it upon the tip of the right ear of Aaron, and upon the tip of the right ear of his sons, and upon the thumb of their right hand, and upon the great toe of their right foot, and sprinkle the blood upon the altar round about.

After Stephen had given his oration on the history of the nation of Israel and the coming of Christ it was only natural for him to continue in that vein as he was being murdered. He told them he saw heaven opened up and he saw the majestic glory of God. Standing at (or OUT of) the right hand of the GLORY, not a physical person, he saw Jesus Christ standing in the place of authority, majesty, and power at the RIGHT HAND of everything God is.

I respectfully ask for your opinions on this issue.

TimP

[rameumptom]

Well, you have to understand the ancient Greek language better than you obviously seem to here.

Yes, it technically states "out", but most scholars agree with the translation of "on" as being better understood in English. That is why most of the English translations use the word "on" or "at" (see this link from bible.cc for a comparison). The expression suggests that Christ stood up (or out) from his own throne on the right hand of God, in order to greet Stephen.

The act of Jesus sitting on his throne is called the "Session of Christ" ( Session of Christ - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ).

The word "session" is an archaic noun meaning sitting. Wayne Grudem notes that the word formerly meant "the act of sitting down," but that it no longer has that meaning in ordinary English usage today.This language is used in Psalm 110:1 and Hebrews 10:12. In Acts 7:55, however, Stephen sees Jesus standing at the right hand of God. This may represent Jesus "rising momentarily from the throne of glory to greet his proto-martyr, standing as a witness to vindicate Stephen's testimony, or preparing to return.

So, as you can see, it is generally agreed that Christ sits on his own throne, on the right hand of the Father. He arose from his throne to greet Stephen. Edited October 3, 2011 by rameumptom

[Vort]

TimP said:

I notice the LDS Church uses a specific set of biblical scriptures to indicate God has a physical body. An avid LDS apologist, Mr. Tim Berman, pressed these scriptures on me quite positively.

[...]

Based on this information the scripture 7:55 reads more properly “and Jesus standing OUT of the right hand of God.”

And 7:56 would correctly read also “and the Son of Man standing OUT the right hand of God.”

There is no indication at all in either scripture as to Stephen seeing God in a physical form.

I don't understand, Tim. Whether one translates the preposition as "on" or "out of" or "at" or "through" or "above" or "inside of" or anything else, the point is "the right hand". The Father apparently has hands -- at least two -- and one is on "the right".

Edited May 16, 2021 by Vort

[spamlds]

I speak French, German, and a smattering of Russian. The most "slippery" parts of any language to learn are the prepositions. They are almost always idiomatic. Trying to literally translate them is kind of pointless. If you ask a German what's "ON" TV, he will reply, "a vase of flowers," "a lamp," or "dust." He conceptualizes "ON" as meaning physically on top of something. Americans say "ON" TV in relation to the program content that is being broadcast at the moment. Unless someone is trained in the idiomatic way prepositions are used in a language, it's not helpful in directly translating them to English. Here are a couple of articles I wrote about the topic of language and translating the scriptures. Hope these will give you cause for reflection.

The Society for the Prevention of Anti-Mormonism: Preposition, idioms, and the problems of Bible translations

The Society for the Prevention of Anti-Mormonism: 'Biting the wax tadpole' and other translation errors

[mikbone]

I concur, instead of discussing the meaning of prepositions. We should discuss the original issue.

Does God the Father have a physical body?

The Answer is yes. And if you come to a LDS site asking this this question you should get a response that incorporates modern day revelation.

Old Testament -

Genesis 1:25-26 (Man created in the image of God male and female)

Genesis 32: 30 (Jacob states that he has seen God Face to Face)

Acts 7:5 (Stephen's vision)

Doctrine and Covenants -

130:22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

The Fist Vision, Joseph Smith History

JSH 1:17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

[bytebear]

I am curious. If Jesus is not a physical being? When did he shed his physical body, and how does that jive with Rom. 6:9?

[Snow]

I notice the LDS Church uses a specific set of biblical scriptures to indicate God has a physical body. An avid LDS apologist, Mr. Tim Berman, pressed these scriptures on me quite positively.

Acts 7:55 ... etc

I don't think so. The LDS belief in the physical nature of God comes from the First Vision - that's where the Church get's its belief. The scriptures you list are just referenced by people who seek to demonstrate that the LDS belief is not inconsistent with some (not all) scriptures found in the Bible.

[Justice]

That's an important truth Snow mentioned.

One of my favorite quotes by Joseph Smith is:

HotC v12: ...for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible.

This remains true today. Even Baptists, among follow Baptists; Catholics, among fellow Catholics; Protestants of all kinds among other Christians, can't agree on some meanings of passages in the Bible.

The truths we have don't come from the Bible, but are supported in the Bible. It may be you believe the Bible does not support our beliefs, but you must agree the words can be interpreted to agree with our beliefs. The fact that we don't use the Bible to interpret it's teachings is not new. In Christ's day many thought Christ's interpretations of the law and prophets was wrong. It turns out they were wrong; they just misunderstood scripture. He was using "modern revelation" in His time, as is our claim today.

[mnn727]

I notice the LDS Church uses a specific set of biblical scriptures to indicate God has a physical body.

Actually we don't solely use "a specific set of biblical scriptures to indicate God has a physical body"

We primarily use the witness of Prophets of God, the confirmation of the Holy Spirit and the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants - both scripture, both additional witnesses of the Lord Jesus Christ.

[SteveVH]

That's an important truth Snow mentioned.

One of my favorite quotes by Joseph Smith is:

HotC v12: ...for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible.

This remains true today. Even Baptists, among follow Baptists; Catholics, among fellow Catholics; Protestants of all kinds among other Christians, can't agree on some meanings of passages in the Bible.

The truths we have don't come from the Bible, but are supported in the Bible. It may be you believe the Bible does not support our beliefs, but you must agree the words can be interpreted to agree with our beliefs. The fact that we don't use the Bible to interpret it's teachings is not new. In Christ's day many thought Christ's interpretations of the law and prophets was wrong. It turns out they were wrong; they just misunderstood scripture. He was using "modern revelation" in His time, as is our claim today.

As a Catholic I cannot help but comment here. What Joseph Smith was speaking about is private interpretation of the Bible and the obvious discrepancies that arise for those who practice this in their faith, making themselves the final authority on the meaning of Scripture. Believe it or not I completely agree with him, and so does the Catholic Church.

I thought you might find the following comments from John Henry Newman, a convert to Catholicism in the late 1800's, who later became a bishop and Cardinal in the Catholic Church, interesting:

"Surely then, if the revelation and lessons in Scripture are addressed to us personally and practically, the presence among us of a formal judge and standing expositor of its words, is imperative. It is antecedently unreasonable to suppose that a book so complex, so unsystematic, in parts so obscure, the outcome of so many minds, times and places, should be given to us from above without the safeguard of some authority; as if it could possibly, from the nature of the case, interpret itself. Its inspiration does but guaranty its truth, not its interpretation. How are private readers satisfactorily to distinguish what is didactic and what is historical, what is fact and what is vision, what is allegorical and what is literal, what is idiomatic and what is grammatical, what is enunciated formally and what occurs obiter, what is of temporary and what is of lasting obligation? Such is our natural anticipation, and it is only too exactly justified in the events of the last three centuries [reference to the Reformation], where, in the many countries where private judgment on the text of Scripture has prevailed. The gift of inspiration requires as its compliment the gift of infallibility."

(John Henry Newman, On the Inspiration of Scripture, ed. J. Derek Holmes and Robert Murray (Washington:Corpus Books, 1967,III.)

As far as Catholics not agreeing on some passages of Scripture, it really is a moot point. I could care less as to a particular interpretation of an individual Catholic. It has absolutely no standing in our Church. We are required to read Scripture in light of the Church's interpretation, not our own. I would think that you would probably agree as regards your own Church. Obviously one of us is wrong as to who that proper authority might be, but the point remains the same.

Edited October 11, 2011 by StephenVH

[SeattleTruthSeeker]

I notice the LDS Church uses a specific set of biblical scriptures to indicate God has a physical body. An avid LDS apologist, Mr. Tim Berman, pressed these scriptures on me quite positively.

Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Acts 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

After much prayer and study I found the English word for ON (expressed as EK in Greek) actually means OUT.

Based on this information the scripture 7:55 reads more properly “and Jesus standing OUT of the right hand of God.”

And 7:56 would correctly read also “and the Son of Man standing OUT the right hand of God.”

There is no indication at all in either scripture as to Stephen seeing God in a physical form.

The Jewish expression of God’s or any authority’s glory, majesty, and all authority is summed up in the position on or at the right hand.

Example 1:

Joseph sought to correct his father Jacob when he had placed his RIGHT HAND on the head of Joseph’s younger son to give him the greater blessing.

Genesis 48:14 And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim's head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh's head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the firstborn.

Genesis 48:17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.

Genesis 48:18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.

Example 2:

Moses praises God for His might in destroying the Egyptians. He uses the allegory of God using His RIGHT HAND of power.

Exodus 15:6 Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.

Exodus 15:12 Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them.

Example 3:

Moses giving Aaron and his sons the authority of the Priesthood. Notice the use of the RIGHT portion of the bodies to indicate power, authority, and authorization.

Exodus 29:20 Then shalt thou kill the ram, and take of his blood, and put it upon the tip of the right ear of Aaron, and upon the tip of the right ear of his sons, and upon the thumb of their right hand, and upon the great toe of their right foot, and sprinkle the blood upon the altar round about.

After Stephen had given his oration on the history of the nation of Israel and the coming of Christ it was only natural for him to continue in that vein as he was being murdered. He told them he saw heaven opened up and he saw the majestic glory of God. Standing at (or OUT of) the right hand of the GLORY, not a physical person, he saw Jesus Christ standing in the place of authority, majesty, and power at the RIGHT HAND of everything God is.

I respectfully ask for your opinions on this issue.

TimP

The heavens were opened and Stephen saw Christ on the "right hand" of God the Father. Let us look at something that is even more significant. This one is in Revelation and I had just recently come across it through studying. It is very interesting because it teaches several things in a small amount of words.

Revelation 3:21, in the King James Version says this:

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

The Aramaic version says this:

“And I shall grant the overcomer to sit with me on my throne, just as I have overcome and I sit with my Father on his throne.”

All versions render Revelation 3:21 in the following way

Those who overcome the world

Christ will grant them to sit on a throne with him

Christ sits on the throne with the Father.

Revelation also describes 24 thrones in Revelation 4:4. Those who were seated on these 24 thrones were Elders and that these Elders where dressed in white and crowned with Golden crowns on their head.

The Apostle Paul, in 2 Timothy, informs Timothy that he had fought the good fight, endured to the end and that there is laid up for him a "crown of Righteousness".

Even more interesting is that the 24 thrones surround the other throne.

When we look at this, we have the Father seated on a throne. Christ is also seated on a throne as well. Those who overcome the world will be granted a seat on a throne. Surrounding the Throne are 24 other thrones.

When you start seeing this, what one realizes is that Christ inherited power and glory. He prays in John 17:3 that the Father restores the power and glory He had held prior to his mortal ministry, power and glory that he had with the Father.

This shatters the long held view of a Trinitarian concept because how can Christ and God occupy the Same throne and how can those who are granted permission by Christ occupy the same throne that Christ occupies? The truth? Those who overcome the world will receive a divine position of kingship. Why is that? Because we are heirs and joint heirs with Jesus Christ. He has the authority to bestow unto us divine glory and honor because we have overcome the world. How do we overcome the world? By being obedient to the principles and ordinances of the Gospel. We literally are the Bride of Christ and Christ is the Bridegroom.

In fact, when you look at the pure Ancient Jewish Religion, it reflected the Marriage Ceremony of YHWH and the Covenant People. The Bride is bought with a price (The Atonement of Jesus Christ). While the Bridegroom (Christ) goes and prepares a place for his Bride (My Father has many mansions and I go and prepare a place for you), the Bride begins to learn how to be a wife and a mother. She devotes her time to learning the tasks and skills in order to be loyal and obedient to her husband and when she is prepared, the Bridegroom will come to call her forth (parable of the Ten Virgins/ The Christian Believer, in preparing to meet the Redeemer of Israel, learns what the covenants mean, and how to fulfill those covenants so that they will be prepared).

What does all this mean? Christ and the Father are separate distinct beings that occupy their respective thrones of authority. Thus, when Stephen looked up in heaven and saw Christ "standing on the right hand" throne of God, we see that Christ stood from his position of power and authority in Revelation. Did Stephen see the Father? No, but he did see the Resurrected Christ. A being that is possessing a body of flesh and bone that is exalted and glorified. And, who is Christ in the express image of? The Father. So, if Christ, having an exalted body of flesh and bone and is in the express image and likeness of the Father - then the Father has a body of flesh and bone as well.

Before you disagree, remember that in Colossians, we learn that Christ created all things. This includes the physical bodies of Humanity. We, then, conclude that when Genesis says "Let us make man in our Image" we know that it was the Father speaking to the Son and instructing the Son to make man in the image of God, after the likeness of God. Question: If Christ did not have a physical body of flesh and bone, but the word Likeness and Image in Hebrew is the same as Adam having a son named Seth that was born after Adam's image and likeness (referring to Adam's physical body), then we conclude that the Father instructed Christ to fashion Adam's immortal body from the dust of the Ground into the express image of the Father - since the Son had not yet taken on mortal flesh.

Therefore, not only do you have the Trinity exposed as not being biblical in Revelation 3:21, but you have Eternal Marriage, you have Obedience as part of the requirement to overcome the world, and you have the separateness and distinctiveness of Jesus Christ from the Father as two separate beings sitting on thrones of glory and exaltation that those who do overcome the world will occupy with the Father and Christ - the Deification of humanity right in Revelation 3:21 - to those who overcome the world, I will grant them to sit on the throne with me as I sit on the throne with my Father.

Through the Obedience of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the commandments of Christ, we will become like Christ and the Father and receive our own crowns of Righteousness.

If anyone disputes this, then they have to make an concerted effort to explain why there are 24 thrones surrounding the other Throne, and interpret Revelation 3:21 to not mean that we will sit on a throne of glory and exaltation as John the Revelator states Christ will grant.

[Soninme]

All versions render Revelation 3:21 in the following way

Those who overcome the world

Christ will grant them to sit on a throne with him

Christ sits on the throne with the Father.

Revelation also describes 24 thrones in Revelation 4:4. Those who were seated on these 24 thrones were Elders and that these Elders where dressed in white and crowned with Golden crowns on their head.

When we look at this, we have the Father seated on a throne. Christ is also seated on a throne as well. Those who overcome the world will be granted a seat on a throne.

Yes God has a throne.

Solomon sat on it.

1 Chronicles 29:23 Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him.

His throne is in the temple forever.

Ezekiel 43:6-7 Then I heard Him speaking to me from the temple, while a man stood beside me. And He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever.

Does the Bible teach a physical chair/throne?

Isaiah 66:1 and Acts 7:49 Thus says the LORD:“ Heaven is My throne, And earth is My footstool.

Matthew 5:34-35 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne; nor by the earth, for it is His footstool;

What is the throne made of?

Ps. 89:14 Righteousness and justice are the foundation of Your throne; Mercy and truth go before Your face.

Dan 7:9 “ I watched till thrones were put in place, And the Ancient of Days was seated; His garment was white as snow, And the hair of His head was like pure wool. His throne was a fiery flame, Its wheels a burning fire;

Surrounding the Throne are 24 other thrones.

Also around the throne;

Isaiah 6:1 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple.

The train of His robe.

2 Chronicles 18:18 Then Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing on His right hand and His left.

All the host of heaven - standing on both of His hands:o

Rev 4:3 John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne,.

The seven Spirits.

Rev 4:5 And He who sat there was like a jasper and a sardius stone in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, in appearance like an emerald.

A rainbow that looked like an emerald.

Rev 5:6 Before the throne there was a sea of glass, like crystal. And in the midst of the throne, and around the throne, were four living creatures full of eyes in front and in back.

A sea of glass and four living creatures full of eyes.

Rev 5:11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands.

Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,.

Angels, creatures, elders and people in robes with palm branches too numerous to count.

Rev 22:1 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Also a river.

God’s throne symbolizes power, dominion and rule.

Psalm 45:6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

Jeremiah 3:17 “At that time Jerusalem shall be called The Throne of the LORD,

Jeremiah 14:21 Do not abhor us, for Your name’s sake; Do not disgrace the throne of Your glory. Remember, do not break Your covenant with us.

Jeremiah 49:38I will set My throne in Elam, And will destroy from there the king and the princes,’ says the LORD.

Luke 1:32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.

Thrones symbolize evil dominion also.

Psalm 94:20 Shall the throne of iniquity, which devises evil by law, Have fellowship with You?

Revelation 2:13 “I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is.

Revelation 16:10 Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues because of the pain.

The chief context of Acts 7, specifically 37-56 is the identity of Jesus not the physicality of God. They were just mad at Stephen until he said he saw Jesus standing at the right hand God. Then they stoned him. They knew Stephen meant Jesus had what He claimed in Matt 28:18 “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth".

Thanks

[Soninme]

remember that in Colossians, we learn that Christ created all things. This includes the physical bodies of Humanity. We, then, conclude that when Genesis says "Let us make man in our Image" we know that it was the Father speaking to the Son and instructing the Son to make man in the image of God, after the likeness of God. Question: If Christ did not have a physical body of flesh and bone, but the word Likeness and Image in Hebrew is the same as Adam having a son named Seth that was born after Adam's image and likeness (referring to Adam's physical body), then we conclude that the Father instructed Christ to fashion Adam's immortal body from the dust of the Ground into the express image of the Father - since the Son had not yet taken on mortal flesh.

This completely ignores the statement that man was made "in Our image after Our likeness.

Gen 1:26 clearly does not say man was created in the image and likeness of the Father only.

Whatever the image and likeness may be it MUST be the image and likeness of the Persons doing the creating.

The BIble tells us Who the Creator is;

God - Genesis 1:1

The Father -Isaiah 64:8 But now, O Lord, You are our Father, We are the clay, and You our potter; And all of us are the work of Your hand.

Jesus -John 1:3 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

The HolySpirit- Job 33:4 “The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

God by Himself - Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by Myself;

then we conclude that the Father instructed Christ to fashion Adam's immortal body from the dust of the Ground into the express image of the Father - since the Son had not yet taken on mortal flesh.

Since we are made in the image and likeness of our Creator and as you agree "the Son had not yet taken on mortal flesh" then whatever is meant by being made in the image of God CANNOT mean a physical body because even in the LDS view only one member of the godhead had a body when Adam was made.

As for Seth being born after Adam's image and likeness, Adam was made sinless, Seth was born in sin.

[mnn727]

Since we are made in the image and likeness of our Creator and as you agree "the Son had not yet taken on mortal flesh" then whatever is meant by being made in the image of God CANNOT mean a physical body because even in the LDS view only one member of the godhead had a body when Adam was made.

Untrue, I'm LDS and thats not my view at all.

[prisonchaplain]

I don't think so. The LDS belief in the physical nature of God comes from the First Vision - that's where the Church get's its belief. The scriptures you list are just referenced by people who seek to demonstrate that the LDS belief is not inconsistent with some (not all) scriptures found in the Bible.

This is such an excellent point. If I embraced the First Vision, I would then look back at Acts 7 and think TO MYSELF "Aha...there is confirmation!" I would not expect others who did not accept that vision to see what I see.

As a parallel example, I look at the baptism of Jesus and see Trinity. The Son receives baptism, The Father praises his Son, and the Holy Spirit descends upon him. For trinitarians, this is a wonderful picture and confirmation. If I were to show this to a Jehovah's Witness as proof--or to an LDS person, I'd rightly expect a blank look (i.e. WHAT???) in response.

[Juan_P]

This is such an excellent point. If I embraced the First Vision, I would then look back at Acts 7 and think TO MYSELF "Aha...there is confirmation!" I would not expect others who did not accept that vision to see what I see.

As a parallel example, I look at the baptism of Jesus and see Trinity. The Son receives baptism, The Father praises his Son, and the Holy Spirit descends upon him. For trinitarians, this is a wonderful picture and confirmation. If I were to show this to a Jehovah's Witness as proof--or to an LDS person, I'd rightly expect a blank look (i.e. WHAT???) in response.

True, we are looking backwards and finding confirmation to what we already believe. For us, LDS, we look at the baptism of Jesus and see confirmaiton that they are three separate persons or three separate dudes to make it clearer, ie Jesus getting baptized, the spirit decending in the form of a dove, and that voice coming fom heaven, not from Jesus, presenting him as his beloved son. We would absolutely have a blank look of how can you see the traditional nicene creed version of the trinitarian doctirne of one God in three in that event, but would point out that along with the apostle stephen's vision, that it is proof that some parts of the nicene creed are just wrong; although today we could probably accept the constatinople version 381 as translated into english as been basically what we believe in too with a few nuances.

Edited October 18, 2011 by Juan_P
numer incorrect

[Soninme]

Originally Posted by Soninme

Since we are made in the image and likeness of our Creator and as you agree "the Son had not yet taken on mortal flesh" then whatever is meant by being made in the image of God CANNOT mean a physical body because even in the LDS view only one member of the godhead had a body when Adam was made.

Untrue, I'm LDS and thats not my view at all.

mnn727

How do you see it?

[Juan_P]

...made in the image of God CANNOT mean a physical body because even in the LDS view only one member of the godhead had a body when Adam was made

Correct that only one member of the Godhead had a body back then, ie The Father, and Jesus first obtained his body on earth.

..we are made in the image and likeness of our Creator..

"male and female" implies to us a father and mother therefore there must be somewhere a heavenly mother, with a body, alongside that Heavenly Father even if there is no mention of her in scripture.

[Windseeker]

This is such an excellent point. If I embraced the First Vision, I would then look back at Acts 7 and think TO MYSELF "Aha...there is confirmation!" I would not expect others who did not accept that vision to see what I see.

As a parallel example, I look at the baptism of Jesus and see Trinity. The Son receives baptism, The Father praises his Son, and the Holy Spirit descends upon him. For trinitarians, this is a wonderful picture and confirmation. If I were to show this to a Jehovah's Witness as proof--or to an LDS person, I'd rightly expect a blank look (i.e. WHAT???) in response.

WHAT???? it's like you have no clue what the LDS understanding of the nature of God and the relationship of the members of the Godhead.

My father (by the way former Bishop in Federal Way 1st Ward) who while serving a Mission in Brazil (he's currently back in Brazil) commissioned a painting of this very scene because this event so clearly illustrates the LDS understanding of God the Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost. I grew up looking at this image in our hall. Here you have all three appearing at the same time and distinctly individual.

But someone else views it so differently, rather then seeing 3 distinct and separate physical entities they see all the parts of the same entity appearing at once....and saying it's pleased..with itself

[Vort]

WHAT???? it's like you have no clue what the LDS understanding of the nature of God and the relationship of the members of the Godhead.

My father (by the way former Bishop in Federal Way 1st Ward) who while serving a Mission in Brazil (he's currently back in Brazil) commissioned a painting of this very scene because this event so clearly illustrates the LDS understanding of God the Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost. I grew up looking at this image in our hall. Here you have all three appearing at the same time and distinctly individual.

But someone else views it so differently, rather then seeing 3 distinct and separate physical entities they see all the parts of the same entity appearing at once....and saying it's pleased..with itself

This is exactly PC's point. We view the same scripture very differently depending on our doctrinal prejudice. It's a confirmation of Joseph Smith's lament.

[Windseeker]

This is exactly PC's point. We view the same scripture very differently depending on our doctrinal prejudice. It's a confirmation of Joseph Smith's lament.

I was just illustrating the "WHAT???"

Some random thoughts:

Reading thru these threads I now have a much better understanding where other Christian religions feel justified in proclaiming we worhip a different Jesus. I do feel we have way more in common then not. I've seen so many examples in these threads of individuals posting "no, it's like this" and then they go on to say the same thing worded just a bit differently. I still don't understand the Trinity as believed by many of our Christian brothers even though I read and re-read their explainations. It stings when some say Mormons aren't Christian because I've accepted Jesus as my Savior and the only way thru which I can return to my Heavenly Father. I'm tempted to say that those who don't truly understand our nature as actual Children of a Heavenly Father are perhaps being sold short on an opportunity to be really close to their creator. But I don't think this is true. I have met many non-lds who have what I consider to be a wonderful relationship with God, one I admire and wish I had. I respect and appreciate those from other faiths that have shared their questions and beliefs on the nature of God on this forum. I've learned allot.

[prisonchaplain]

WHAT???? it's like you have no clue what the LDS understanding of the nature of God and the relationship of the members of the Godhead.

I'm not sure why you say this. Do you not believe that Heavenly Father is the God you worship, through Jesus Christ, his Son, by the power of the Holy Spirit? That these three are distinct beings, but are united in purpose as one Godhead? If I've misperceived, please explain, so I might better understand.

My father (by the way former Bishop in Federal Way 1st Ward) who while serving a Mission in Brazil (he's currently back in Brazil)

Is that the one on 308th? It's always interesting to find cyber friends who live so close by.

commissioned a painting of this very scene because this event so clearly illustrates the LDS understanding of God the Father, The Son and the Holy Ghost. I grew up looking at this image in our hall. Here you have all three appearing at the same time and distinctly individual.

But someone else views it so differently, rather then seeing 3 distinct and separate physical entities they see all the parts of the same entity appearing at once....and saying it's pleased..with itself

The picture would look the same whether it was separate beings or persons--though, you might guess that the traditional picture would not show the Father, but rather clouds with a light eminating. Also, as much as you suggest I do not understand the doctrine of the LDS Godhead, you seem to misunderstand the trinitarian view. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit talk to each other throughout the Bible. They are distinct persons. We do not deny this. So, though God is one, when Jesus speaks to the Father, God is not speaking to himself.

[Windseeker]

I'm not sure why you say this. Do you not believe that Heavenly Father is the God you worship, through Jesus Christ, his Son, by the power of the Holy Spirit? That these three are distinct beings, but are united in purpose as one Godhead? If I've misperceived, please explain, so I might better understand.

Yes that's it. I take back what I said. I think you do understand, I think I was misunderstanding your statement but Vort clarified what your point was. Sorry about that.

Is that the one on 308th? It's always interesting to find cyber friends who live so close by.

Yes, that's it by Federal Way High School. I grew up in Oregon but after my mission moved to Federal Way. I now live in SE Florida. My heart is in the Northwest and hope someday to move to Bellingham.

The picture would look the same whether it was separate beings or persons--though, you might guess that the traditional picture would not show the Father, but rather clouds with a light eminating.

The picture was traditional btw as it's depicted in the Bible.

Also, as much as you suggest I do not understand the doctrine of the LDS Godhead, you seem to misunderstand the trinitarian view. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit talk to each other throughout the Bible. They are distinct persons. We do not deny this. So, though God is one, when Jesus speaks to the Father, God is not speaking to himself.

Thanks for clarifying and for your patience

[Vort]

The picture would look the same whether it was separate beings or persons--though, you might guess that the traditional picture would not show the Father, but rather clouds with a light eminating.

Interestingly (to me, anyway), LDS-oriented portrayals of the Father are more difficult than is often believed. The standard idea:

is not universally accepted. Portrayals of the Christ, even post-resurrection, are more standard:

But representations of the Father are more problematic. It seems to me that most artists choose to avoid depicting the Father at all. Seems like I read something very recently saying that Church-approved productions must avoid all physical depiction of the Father (i.e. voice is okay, but no apparitions).

[Soninme]

Juan_P Quote:

Originally Posted by Soninme

...made in the image of God CANNOT mean a physical body because even in the LDS view only one member of the godhead had a body when Adam was made

Correct that only one member of the Godhead had a body back then, ie The Father, and Jesus first obtained his body on earth.

Juan_P

Yes, I understand that to be the LDS view, my point is that Gen 1:26 God clearly says man was made in "Our image, after Our likeness" NOT just the image of the Father but also the in the image of the Son and Holy Spirit, and they did not have bodies of flesh and bone, so whatever is meant by image and likeness cannot be a physical body.

..we are made in the image and likeness of our Creator..

"male and female" implies to us a father and mother therefore there must be somewhere a heavenly mother, with a body, alongside that Heavenly Father even if there is no mention of her in scripture.

That is implied in your view but as you say nowhere is a heavenly mother mentioned in any scripture. Scripture in many places though does tell us that in fact Jesus created all things (John 1:3) (Col. 1:16-17) etc. and surely had to be one of the "Us" mentioned in Gen 1:26 Who"s image you and I are made in.

Thanks