IMac?

[Snow]

I had an older computer that wasn't keeping up with what I was throwing at it. So here is what I built to replace it:

- AMD Phenom II 965 (3.41GHz) Black Edition Processor

- COOLER MASTER Hyper N 520 processor Fan

- Two G.SKILL Sniper 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 Memory (16 GB total)

- ASUS Sabertooth 990FX Motherboard

- Two ZOTAC ZT-50401-10L GeForce GTX 550 Ti video cards

- Three Hanns.G HH241 23.6" Monitors

- Antec NEO ECO 620C 620W Power Supply

- NZXT Gama Case

- Three 120mm Case fans

- 1.5TB SATA 6.0Gb Hard drive

- Asus DVD-RW

- Windows 7 Home Premium OEM

I got all my components from newegg.com and it ran me around $2000.00 at the time. And I can assure you that it will spank that Apple computer any day. As far as crashes, not a one. Windows have gotten much, much, much better so that crashing problem really is no longer a concern. Just so long as you have a good anti-virus and anti-spyware software running and protecting your system and are not messing with it too much such as over-clocking, etc.

As for my old computer, it is now connected to my TV. So now that I've confused you even more, good luck :)

And yet, after all that, you still have Windows.

[slamjet]

And yet, after all that, you still have Windows.

Not sure what you mean by that, except to try to illicit an Apple vs. Windows war. But in my view, Windows gives more bang for the buck. Additionally, as far as I understand, there's nothing I can't do any better on an Apple computer. So I'll stick with Windows. If someone else wants to stick with Apple, then they can go right on ahead. No big deal, it's all relative to personal preference.

[LittleWyvern]

And yet, after all that, you still have Windows.

Because you can't run OS X on that hardware without some major (and slightly illegal) hacking.

[Vort]

Not sure what you mean by that, except to try to illicit an Apple vs. Windows war. But in my view, Windows gives more bang for the buck. Additionally, as far as I understand, there's nothing I can't do any better on an Apple computer. So I'll stick with Windows. If someone else wants to stick with Apple, then they can go right on ahead. No big deal, it's all relative to personal preference.

Snow is a Mac True Believer®, bearing his testimony about the Only True Operating System. Whatever. If he thinks the celestial kingdom runs on OS X, he is free to pay triple what others pay and get Snow Leopard or whichever the latest and greatest is. Good for him.

[Snow]

Snow is a Mac True Believer®, bearing his testimony about the Only True Operating System. Whatever. If he thinks the celestial kingdom runs on OS X, he is free to pay triple what others pay and get Snow Leopard or whichever the latest and greatest is. Good for him.

And that's the kind of extreme exaggeration (or pick another adjective to describe someone who deliberately says something untrue), that PC drones have to resort to in a vain attempt to make a point.

My iMac cost was comparable in price to what a similarly equipped wintel commodity would have been at the time - while total cost of ownership is lower... but it's a lousy comparison because, there were no PCs that had comparable aesthetics, you can't buy a wintel box that runs OS X or any of the Mac specific programs and you can't buy a Mac that is loaded with bloatware - nor, if you buy, say a Dell, can you get back the hours of your life you'll spend trying to rid yourself of it, and Apple, like it does every year has the highest customer satisfaction and the best rated customer service.

Edited October 11, 2011 by Snow

[skippy740]

Uh.... let's see... how to get rid of a Dell computer:

Put an ad on ebay

Put an ad on craigslist

Either one works! (For the record, I've had 2 Dell Latitude laptops and had no problem selling them. Of course, no where near the purchase price...)

Of course, Dell Latitude laptops are 'business class' laptops... not the cheaper 'consumer' laptops made entirely out of plastic and cheap components.

And as far as Windows 7 is concerned... I haven't had ONE problem that I didn't cause myself. (I'm an amateur hacker and mess with the registry on occasion.)

Viruses? Get Microsoft Security Essentials for free. It's fast and the price is right. Never had a problem that MSE couldn't fix.

[Mahone]

And that's the kind of extreme exaggeration (or pick another adjective to describe someone who deliberately says something untrue), that PC drones have to resort to in a vain attempt to make a point.

My iMac cost was comparable in price to what a similarly equipped wintel commodity would have been at the time

Unlikely. Unlike apple machines, there are a LOT of manufacturers that build PCs that run windows and various other operating systems, with varying specifications and varying prices. I doubt very much there weren't cheaper PCs available with similar or higher specifications. It takes a little bit of research, but that's the unfortunate side effect of having considerably more choice. Oh, and if there isn't any specifications you like, you can build your own to your preferences. How about that :)

while total cost of ownership is lower...

I guess it depends on how much you paid for it to begin with and how you treat it. If you buy a $600 windows machine and run it along side a $3000 apple machine, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out the quality of the components is going to be higher in the mac, and therefore last longer. Similarly, software wise, if the user doesn't have any common sense and gets click happy when the operating system warns you of potentially dangerous actions, you're going to end up paying for the damage. Windows, by design, is still fairly trusting of the user. If you tell it to do something, it'll ultimately end up doing it, dangerous or not. People who don't have any common sense be warned.

but it's a lousy comparison because, there were no PCs that had comparable aesthetics

Again, with the pure quantity of potential manufacturers and choices, I doubt this to be true. There have been very similar looking PCs for several years. You just need to look for them with the vast amount of choices you have. But then, it depends on your definition of comparable aesthetics. If you're looking for it to be 100% identical, there's impossible due to patents.

You can't buy a wintel box that runs OS X

It is very questionable as to whether you'd need it. Windows and the various other choices of operating system can for the most part do everything that OSX can, and more.

you can't buy a Mac that is loaded with bloatware

That's an unfortunate problem that comes with having so much choice. Not all manufacturers put bloatware onto their OS images - many people actually find these various applications useful too, so wouldn't consider it to be bloatware. Again, a little research through the many choices available to you would solve this issue.

nor, if you buy, say a Dell, can you get back the hours of your life you'll spend trying to rid yourself of it

Was it you that was talking of exaggerations?

[slamjet]

PC Decrapifier

How-To

[skippy740]

To me, there are 3 major contenders for computers:

- Mac

- Dell Latitude

- Sony

Dell Latitudes are meant for business computing needs. Easy to find parts and accessories on ebay (like docking stations that no one else seems to make).

Sony (particularly the Sony Z) to me are the PC alternative to a Mac. The screens are beautiful and great designs in their units. (BTW, you can get a blu-ray drive and 1080p screens in many Sony laptops... can't get them in Mac yet, IIRC.)

Macs are beautiful, and they are of high quality... but if everything you need works in Windows... why spend the extra money and get 1/2 the features compared to Sony?

[classylady]

I, myself, am pretty much computer illiterate. But, my husband is a Mac convert, who used to be a PC fanatic. He used to work for the Univ. of Utah putting together no-name computers for the department he worked for. He now works for one of the larger school districts in the state as a computer systems service specialist. He has worked on both pc's and mac's. His experience the last 21 years, is that quality and ease of use is the reason he prefers the macs. The district has over 15,000 macs--not including ipads and ipods, and about the same amount of pc computers. For support issues, the district only needs 1 person for 4 schools on the mac side, but on the pc side, they need 1 support person per school! He also states, that in some of the studies he has read, people tend to be more productive using macs than pc's.

The support issue, for me, kind of says it all.

Edited October 12, 2011 by classylady
clarification

[Dravin]

That's an unfortunate problem that comes with having so much choice. Not all manufacturers put bloatware onto their OS images - many people actually find these various applications useful too, so wouldn't consider it to be bloatware. Again, a little research through the many choices available to you would solve this issue.

And it's a problem easily avoided by building your own machine (I suppose that might qualify under not all manufacturers) from the ground up. Buy a copy of Windows from TigerDirect, Newegg, or what have you and it'll be free of manufacturer bloat.

[skippy740]

"Manufacturer bloat" is a great introduction to the "Add/Remove Programs" feature in the Control Panel.

You can buy a copy of Windows and do a complete clean installation. I do this on occasion after doing a full system backup to remove any lingering registry errors and other stuff.

Oh, and my personal secrets for making sure that your Windows computer always works?

- Never install a registry cleaner.

- Do a disk defrag at least once a week (use the windows default one, unless you need a different program if your hard drive is encrypted. Found this out the hard way once.)

- Maintain a good anti-virus program (Microsoft Security Essentials is free for personal use and for small businesses up to 10 computers)

- Do a disk cleanup about once a month.

If you want to find a bunch of free software for windows, check out Ninite - Install or Update Multiple Apps at Once

Edited October 11, 2011 by skippy740

[bytebear]

I just rebooted my 7 year old HP PC after a good 3 years of sitting in a closet. It booted right up with no problems whatsoever. It's running Windows XP. I also run XP on my work PC. Windows Vista did have some pretty big issues, but Windows 7 fixed them, and actually improved the memory footprint, and runs great on older PCs. We tested it at my work on a tiny notebook PC with minimal memory and a cheap processor, and it worked great. No issues whatsoever.

Mac and PC hardware are indistinguishable. They use the same processor chips and the same memory chips. Apple puts restrictions on their Operating System (OS X) to make sure it doesn't easily run on generic hardware, so you really are paying for the OS and not the hardware. And I refuse to pay $2000 for an OS.

The other issue is software. With Apple, you are pretty much stuck using commercial software like Adobe Photoshop. But there are free open source packages like GIMP that do the same thing, and you don't pay a dime. Same with Open Office which is completely free and does all that you need from word processing to Spreadsheets.

Apple is there to hold your hand, and tell you what you want, and many users love that they don't have to study up on the options. But it comes at a price.

[Blackmarch]

I just rebooted my 7 year old HP PC after a good 3 years of sitting in a closet. It booted right up with no problems whatsoever. It's running Windows XP. I also run XP on my work PC. Windows Vista did have some pretty big issues, but Windows 7 fixed them, and actually improved the memory footprint, and runs great on older PCs. We tested it at my work on a tiny notebook PC with minimal memory and a cheap processor, and it worked great. No issues whatsoever.

Mac and PC hardware are indistinguishable. They use the same processor chips and the same memory chips. Apple puts restrictions on their Operating System (OS X) to make sure it doesn't easily run on generic hardware, so you really are paying for the OS and not the hardware. And I refuse to pay $2000 for an OS.

The other issue is software. With Apple, you are pretty much stuck using commercial software like Adobe Photoshop. But there are free open source packages like GIMP that do the same thing, and you don't pay a dime. Same with Open Office which is completely free and does all that you need from word processing to Spreadsheets.

Apple is there to hold your hand, and tell you what you want, and many users love that they don't have to study up on the options. But it comes at a price.

weird .. i multiple dvds full of freebieware for mac, including things like OpenOffice.

And considering i bought an imac about the same time my roomie made a nice honkin big computer in the end it was only about 200-300$ dollar difference (in his favor and not counting the windows license he purchased), and i didn't have to worry about the headaches of getting all the right components, putting it together and etc... I think his had a bit better graphics card, but on the other hand it was much more massive physically... now i doubt i would have had to pay someone 300$ just to put together a computer, but on the other hand to get someone to get all those components in the same amount of space decently as what my imac has would likely be another story.

SO in the end if you really want to get the bang for your buck you have to put together your own computer, but its not a huge difference.

Edited October 12, 2011 by Blackmarch

[Mahone]

I, myself, am pretty much computer illiterate. But, my husband is a Mac convert, who used to be a PC fanatic. He used to work for the Univ. of Utah putting together no-name computers for the department he worked for. He now works for one of the larger school districts in the state as a computer systems service specialist. He has worked on both pc's and mac's. His experience the last 21 years, is that quality and ease of use is the reason he prefers the macs. The district has over 15,000 macs--not including ipads and ipods, and about the same amount of pc computers. For support issues, the district only needs 1 person for 4 schools on the mac side, but on the pc side, they need 1 support person per school! He also states, that in some of the studies he has read, people tend to be more productive using macs than pc's.

The support issue, for me, kind of says it all.

It's probably a little bit of an unfair comparison. All networks are different, and it's impossible for me to know without inside knowledge of the districts computer network, but at least in the UK most schools that have macs along side windows computers have them set up in what is known as a "magic triangle". That means, in order to log onto the macs using the same credentials you'd use to log onto the windows computers, and have access to the same resources, the macs need to authenticate against the windows servers. They will most likely also use the same servers for other resources that the windows machines use. In my experience, people bought in to support the macs within an educational establishment only look after the macs, and not the bulk of the servers and networking equipment that power them - the windows guys do that, and that's where the bulk of the work is.

I don't know how it works in his school district, but that's how it usually works over here.

[sister_in_faith]

Thank you THANK you THANK YOU, everyone for all your opinions!!!

I just thought that I would give you an update on what we are doing... We talked it over and discussed the ins and outs of all the options... My eyes glassed over about 30 seconds into a 15 minute discussion. Hee hee hee... He decided on the Mac and we ordered it yesterday! I am soooo excited for him.

I'll let you guys know what he thinks of it.

THANK YOU again! you guys are the best!

[classylady]

It's probably a little bit of an unfair comparison. All networks are different, and it's impossible for me to know without inside knowledge of the districts computer network, but at least in the UK most schools that have macs along side windows computers have them set up in what is known as a "magic triangle". That means, in order to log onto the macs using the same credentials you'd use to log onto the windows computers, and have access to the same resources, the macs need to authenticate against the windows servers. They will most likely also use the same servers for other resources that the windows machines use. In my experience, people bought in to support the macs within an educational establishment only look after the macs, and not the bulk of the servers and networking equipment that power them - the windows guys do that, and that's where the bulk of the work is.

I don't know how it works in his school district, but that's how it usually works over here.

My hubby says he wasn't talking/comparing about network management or infrastructure--that's (according to him) is a whole different ball game.

[slamjet]

Thank you THANK you THANK YOU, everyone for all your opinions!!!

I just thought that I would give you an update on what we are doing... We talked it over and discussed the ins and outs of all the options... My eyes glassed over about 30 seconds into a 15 minute discussion. Hee hee hee... He decided on the Mac and we ordered it yesterday! I am soooo excited for him.

I'll let you guys know what he thinks of it.

THANK YOU again! you guys are the best!

Congrats! let us know what you get so us geeks can get all warm and fuzzy inside.

[Snow]

Unlikely. Unlike apple machines, there are a LOT of manufacturers that build PCs that run windows and various other operating systems, with varying specifications and varying prices. I doubt very much there weren't cheaper PCs available with similar or higher specifications. It takes a little bit of research, but that's the unfortunate side effect of having considerably more choice. Oh, and if there isn't any specifications you like, you can build your own to your preferences. How about that :)

Of course you saying it is unlikely doesn't much relate to whether or not it really is unlikely... you not knowing anything about what I have or what I paid... but here's a link that makes the point:

Are Macs More Expensive? Let’s Do the Math Once and For All

But your point makes clear the difference between a PC user and a Mac user. For the wintel guy, it's a matter of specs. For Mac guys, it all about the experience. For example, when iPhones came out with their 5meg camera, other companies and consumers made a big deal that you could get a 6 or 7 megapixel camera on some other phone, like specs were what mattered. Tests, however, showed that iPhones produced the highest quality pictures at the time - optics and processing being crucial to the equation.

Again, with the pure quantity of potential manufacturers and choices, I doubt this to be true. There have been very similar looking PCs for several years. You just need to look for them with the vast amount of choices you have. But then, it depends on your definition of comparable aesthetics. If you're looking for it to be 100% identical, there's impossible due to patents.

I grant that most computer and phone and tablet company do their best to copy Apple designs but I yet to see anything that matches the elegance of an iMac.

It is very questionable as to whether you'd need it. Windows and the various other choices of operating system can for the most part do everything that OSX can, and more.

I admit I haven't kept up on all the software in the wintel world but can you think of a fully integrated suite of products on par with iLife and iTunes, (movies, music, photos, DVD, and Garageband) that come free with the computer?

[Snow]

"Manufacturer bloat" is a great introduction to the "Add/Remove Programs" feature in the Control Panel.

You can buy a copy of Windows and do a complete clean installation. I do this on occasion after doing a full system backup to remove any lingering registry errors and other stuff.

Buy yourself a new copy of the operating system you already paid for and then go to the time and trouble to install it yourself on top of what you already bought and paid for to restore the computer to the condition it should have been in when you bought it.

Apple folks just don't think like that.

- Do a disk defrag at least once a week (use the windows default one, unless you need a different program if your hard drive is encrypted. Found this out the hard way once.)

... yeah, not something that Apple guys worry about.

- Maintain a good anti-virus program (Microsoft Security Essentials is free for personal use and for small businesses up to 10 computers)

.... uh, not interested. I have a Mac.

- Do a disk cleanup about once a month.

I suppose that it has some value but I certainly don't do it monthly. Maybe a couple times a year... but I own a Mac.

[Snow]

Mac and PC hardware are indistinguishable.

1. How's your Thunderbolt technology working out for you on your PC?

2. It's ain't the hardware friend. That's PC mentality.

The other issue is software. With Apple, you are pretty much stuck using commercial software like Adobe Photoshop.

I don't use Adobe. I use my free iPhoto for fast stuff and Pixelmator of big stuff, not to mention the free open source stuff that's available.

[LittleWyvern]

A counterpoint:

[Spartan117]

Apple folks just don't think.

... yeah, not something that Apple guys worry about.

.... I have a Mac.

.... but I own a Mac.

Here you go Snow. I think you will be a perfect fit here. You're welcome.

[Nelly]

Unlikely. Unlike apple machines, there are a LOT of manufacturers that build PCs that run windows and various other operating systems, with varying specifications and varying prices. I doubt very much there weren't cheaper PCs available with similar or higher specifications. It takes a little bit of research, but that's the unfortunate side effect of having considerably more choice. Oh, and if there isn't any specifications you like, you can build your own to your preferences. How about that :)

I guess it depends on how much you paid for it to begin with and how you treat it. If you buy a $600 windows machine and run it along side a $3000 apple machine, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out the quality of the components is going to be higher in the mac, and therefore last longer. Similarly, software wise, if the user doesn't have any common sense and gets click happy when the operating system warns you of potentially dangerous actions, you're going to end up paying for the damage. Windows, by design, is still fairly trusting of the user. If you tell it to do something, it'll ultimately end up doing it, dangerous or not. People who don't have any common sense be warned.

Again, with the pure quantity of potential manufacturers and choices, I doubt this to be true. There have been very similar looking PCs for several years. You just need to look for them with the vast amount of choices you have. But then, it depends on your definition of comparable aesthetics. If you're looking for it to be 100% identical, there's impossible due to patents.

It is very questionable as to whether you'd need it. Windows and the various other choices of operating system can for the most part do everything that OSX can, and more.

That's an unfortunate problem that comes with having so much choice. Not all manufacturers put bloatware onto their OS images - many people actually find these various applications useful too, so wouldn't consider it to be bloatware. Again, a little research through the many choices available to you would solve this issue.

Was it you that was talking of exaggerations?

I would never ever let you spend $3000 on a computer.. especially when you could just 'borrow' one from work

[Mahone]

Of course you saying it is unlikely doesn't much relate to whether or not it really is unlikely... you not knowing anything about what I have or what I paid... but here's a link that makes the point:

Are Macs More Expensive? Let’s Do the Math Once and For All

There isn't really a lot of prices you could have paid, unless you got some kind of discount on your machine. But as you ultimately purchased your machine from apple, I don't have a lot of potential amounts to work with, sans discount or second hand etc.

I do know we did our own side by side comparison on this very forum a few months back. Our results were a little different to the results on that link you gave.

If you want to refresh your memory:

http://www.lds.net/forums/general-discussion/30952-pc-vs-mac-12.html#post487348

My point was actually that it's very difficult to compare specs/prices simply due to the pure quantity of options available for PC users that apple users don't have. Anyone wants to do a study with the aim of coming out with a specific outcome (which is actually why most studies happen in the first place), can do so easily by selecting models that are not so good value for money and ignoring the masses that are. It's what I did in the post linked, right?

But your point makes clear the difference between a PC user and a Mac user. For the wintel guy, it's a matter of specs. For Mac guys, it all about the experience. For example, when iPhones came out with their 5meg camera, other companies and consumers made a big deal that you could get a 6 or 7 megapixel camera on some other phone, like specs were what mattered. Tests, however, showed that iPhones produced the highest quality pictures at the time - optics and processing being crucial to the equation.

Link?

Highest quality compared to what? The cheapest phone on the market? How are they going to compare it to all the popular phones currently available?

It's actually all about the specs. Everything is about the specs when it comes to hardware - speaking of "experience" instead of specs reminds me of a typical apple marketing speech. Most people focus on a few specs instead of all of them i.e. megapixels, frame rates and video resolution. There are plenty of specs to be taken into account.

Speaking from personal experience though, I still have an iphone 3G and will keep it until after my wedding takes places later this year. I can't use it for taking photos at all due to the stupidly low quality of the results. Nothing can factor out the horrible 2MB camera, lack of optical zoom, lack of autofocus and lack of flash. And this phone was released in 2008, just three years ago - that's inexcusable, the expected specs from other phones was far higher at the time. I thought you were trying to give the impression that apple comes out with the latest technology? Maybe in one or two areas, but they neglect other areas.

I grant that most computer and phone and tablet company do their best to copy Apple designs but I yet to see anything that matches the elegance of an iMac.

Well that's personal opinion. Thankfully, PC users have a vast range of exteriors to choose from. Besides, my personal preference is looking at what is inside the machine, not what it looks like on the exterior. I guess that stems from my IT background though.

I admit I haven't kept up on all the software in the wintel world but can you think of a fully integrated suite of products on par with iLife and iTunes, (movies, music, photos, DVD, and Garageband) that come free with the computer?

Oh, you mean that software that you actually pay for, but bundled in with the price of the mac? That software you pay for, whether you are actually going to use it or not? Yeah, I have a preference for manufacturers to not do that kind of thing.