Dying testimonies. How tragic.


Vort
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There was an article about the strong social presence of LDS people on the Internet. This is about the phenomenon called the Bloggernacle, which is all the Mormon-related sites out there.

The author postulated that because sharing concerns that might detract from the faith of others is discouraged at Church, there is pent-up energy to truly express oneself freely. This displays itself on the Web in the form of thriving communities. There are spots on the web now where it's "safe" to display divergent thoughts and concerns without being labelled apostate, and people tend to join them and participate regularly.

Just as there are spots everywhere where it is "safe" to affirm your homosexuality and talk about the beauty of male-on-male or female-on-female sexual relations. The fact that such "safe places" exist does not mean they are a good thing.

And by the way, anyone who buys into the rather harsh pronouncements like the OP would do well to read Elder Wirthin's article talk "Concern for the One", which describes how we need to concerned in positive ways to:

a) The people who are tired

b) The people who are different

c) The people who have strayed.

Perhaps you missed the final paragraph of my original post:

I realize there are a few who style themselves as "open-minded" who will take offense at what I have written, claiming it's "mind control" or against the First Amendment or anti-Mother-love or blinkered GoodThought or some such. Whatever. If that's you, then I am not talking to you, because you have no ears to hear. This is to those who have the heart to understand what I'm trying to say, perhaps even in spite of how I have said it.

I'm pretty sure the admonition for these people to "keep your mouth shut" wouldn't be well-received by this apostle.

I'm pretty sure you are neither authorized nor qualified to speak for the late Elder Wirthlin.

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The only thing?

The only thing that kept me going THE WHOLE TIME.

I have a pretty good testimony, but I have been thru really hard times, abusive spouse, divorce, even people that offended me at church that were suposed to be there to help. I can see how these things can make a testimony weak and and they did. But I knew the church is true, and people are not. So I kept going because my dad's words would go thru my head, and soon my testimony became strong, again, and I could rely on that again.

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Vort, this is something I see and worry about too. Also it is so easy to see only today. We get so caught up in questions like 'Is Mormonism Christian?" or "Do we hate Homosexuals?" or on and on with questions of the day and forget that this is all of the moment. What is the long term? Why are we focusing on things that are just bumps when we have long term goals such as bringing the message to everyone on the earth?

If there are bumps can they be turned into stepping stones to our long term goals? Its the little things that people get hung up on and then fall away. I WISH homosexuals could marry if it made them happy but its pointless. Better to focus on the long term instead of getting hung up on it. I WISH people understood that we are Christian but honestly we arent the same as they are. We believe in Jesus but we dont believe in some ethereal God made up of three people. They are wrong so why do we want to be like them? And why do we focus on it? Take the opportunity to teach what we believe not in trying to convince them we are them. Why dont we wear crosses? Another forum I sometimes go to got hung up on that and frankly a lot of people seemed to be falling away because of it. We need to move past these things. Imagine losing out on eternal life over a piece of metal?

Imagine losing out because we cant separate politics from religious belief to the point it BECOMES our religion. Sure our beliefs influence our politics but I see so many people get WAY more passionate about their politics than they ever do over religion. Are we being led away from God this way?

Satan has so many ways of tricking us. By getting us focused on the little things and falling away over them he wins the big battle. Why arent we smarter than this? How can we let our testimony fail over such petty things? Lets not lose track of the big plan for day to day stuff.

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I just finished reading mormonmusic's update about his home teachee. Here is a man with enough Church service that he has actually served on a high council, yet his testimony is so fragile and brittle that he has become inactive because he thought the stake presidency and high council talked too much about tithing.

Did these people fail to read Alma 32, or did they just fail to understand it?

What meaningless blather.

Can one truly believe that if one took the time and effort to really get to know the home teachee in question, come to grips with his hopes, fears, experience and thought processes and really understand when he was going though, that one would conclude that he has become inactive because: 1. the Stake Presidency talked to much about tithing and 2 he doesn't understand Alma 32?

Nonsense.

That's obviously nothing but a clumsy technique to marginalize someone else and their situation while puffing up one's self and one's perspective, ie, I'm smart, or faithful, honest, thrifty, true or brave and if only you were smart, faithful, honest, thrifty, true and brave like me, then you would get it, like I get it.

In the real world, such people - and I have no more idea what's in the guy's heart than you do - have much more complex and deep seated reasons behind their behavior - usually it's a matter that the dogma that they have been taught doesn't hold up in light of what they experience - their religion doesn't explain their experience.

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Guest mormonmusic

What meaningless blather.

In the real world, such people - and I have no more idea what's in the guy's heart than you do - have much more complex and deep seated reasons behind their behavior - usually it's a matter that the dogma that they have been taught doesn't hold up in light of what they experience - their religion doesn't explain their experience.

I agree with this totally. I've had a faith crisis, and came through it to be fully active and completely sacrificing again, but it took reconciling the the grandiose claims of our religion with the things I was experiencing. They were irreconcileable for a while with standard answers I had heard and believed for years. I had to come to my own meaning and understganding, and I'm thankful for the people who didn't reject me along the way.

I hope to give back to others the same way those who cared more about me than a pro-Church stance gave to me and helped me through my own crisis. I find Snow's words above highly true and inspirational.

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. If someone misplaces their testimony, I can gaurantee one thing. There is a sin involved.

Other than the fact that we're ALL sinners.

I'm assuming you mean a major sin and you're 100% wrong. Testimonies can fade with time if you don't nourish them. Stop reading your scriptures, get lax with your prayers, miss Church at times, your testimony will fade too.

I really hate it when members make statements like yours - Its aids in driving people away, because you assume its sin when perhaps all they need is a friend and a good example.

Edited by mnn727
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Other than the fact that we're ALL sinners.

I'm assuming you mean a major sin and you're 100% wrong. Testimonies can fade with time if you don't nourish them. Stop reading your scriptures, get lax with your prayers, miss Church at times, your testimony will fade too.

I really hate it when members make statements like yours - Its aids in driving people away, because you assume its sin when perhaps all they need is a friend and a good example.

Nice job of taking my last comment out of context. Did you happen to read the quote from Joseph Smith that I listed in the original post?

That man who rises up to condemn other, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous

Sure, if someone has a weak testimony to begin with, the testimony will fade over time due to neglect. But I was giving examples of 'successful' returned missionaries that I personally know. Who became critical of the Church. They claim that they have lost their testimony. Like they were walking on the street one day and that it unexpectantly fell out of their pocket. I know better than that.

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What meaningless blather.

Can one truly believe that if one took the time and effort to really get to know the home teachee in question, come to grips with his hopes, fears, experience and thought processes and really understand when he was going though, that one would conclude that he has become inactive because: 1. the Stake Presidency talked to much about tithing and 2 he doesn't understand Alma 32?

Nonsense.

Perhaps. But that is what the man claimed.

Edited by Vort
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Do you think a completely sinless man would walk away from his covenants? I agree that we are all sinful; sinfulness per se does not make one unrighteous. I think milkbone's point is well-taken: We abandon the Church ultimately because of our own shortcomings, not because of someone else's.

Some abandon church....but not Christ or their covenants. Or more aptly they abandon some of the people that cause them to focus more on drama than the blessings of the Gospel in the church.

When someone is repeatedly the victim of gossip or just doesn't feel welcome and then leaves....I wonder who the Lord is more wroth with....those who were hurt and left or those that did the hurting.

Edited by bytor2112
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Some abandon church....but not Christ or their covenants. Or more aptly they abandon some of the people that cause them to focus more on drama than the blessings of the Gospel in the church.

The Church is the vehicle of the gospel. I think that you cannot abandon the Church without abandoning the gospel, to some extent.

When someone is repeatedly the victim of gossip or just doesn't feel welcome and then leave....I wonder who the Lord is more wroth with....those who were hurt and left or those that did the hurting.

Can't argue with you there.

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As opposed to someone that is faithful and doesn't have sin?

Your arguement is a non sequitur. We all have sin as part of our life. As such, everyong that falls away from the church or misplaces their testimony will be a sinner. So am I....and for that matter you. I am sure that some individuals fall away from the church because they are sinning. But to make the case that everyone leaves the church because they have a sin in their life simply is not true.

-RM

Thank you RM, you saved me from having to say this! I think that it is so wrong to say that the only way one's testimony is 'tested' is because of sin is so wrong... I know that I've been struggling with my testimony since I started posting on this web site again, a week or more ago... I really had a hard time because I felt like I was being attacked by members of my own faith, who I expected to be loving and accepting, and to understand me better than other people... My perspective has changed and I am struggling to rebuild was was torn down. I think I will come out on the other side a stronger person. That effected me more than the average person because I am just not as emotionally strong as your average joe. I know that it was a perspective issue (not trying to call anyone out!)...

My struggles with depression and anxiety also have tested my testimony (and when I say testimony, I don't mean in Jesus Christ, but in the church). We had a ward picnic the other week. I thought I would be okay to go, even though I have a hard time remembering people and their names, I thought it would be okay. It wasn't. I got there and shut down. I couldn't talk to anyone, and I ended up standing by myself by a tree about 10 feet away from everyone else. I was so embarassed, and I didn't bring my medication, so I ended up asking my boyfriend to bring me medication. when he got there I just begged him to take me with him because I was in the middle of a full blown panic attack. I haven't been able to go to church two weeks straight because I don't want it to trigger another PA. I hate medicating before church because it is hard to stay away for the full 3 hour block... These things make it hard for me to be a 'normal' member... But I know that my struggles are not because of sin.

Okay, my rant is over... With that I would like to share something I wrote when I was in the middle of my conversion, right about the time I was getting baptized. I was reading the BOM for the first time. I was gauging my progress by how fast I got thru the books, and after reading, and reading, and reading, I was still in Alma. I actually called my missionary. He answered the phone, and without saying anything else, I asked, "Will Alma ever end?!?". He laughed and told me to just keep at it. After I hung up the phone I turned to Alma 32, which took my breath away. I felt like it just spoke to ME. While reading this i was inspired to write something that has been an inspiration to me ever since... Here it is:

I beheld a garden filled with trees. Some trees were mature, some saplings, some seeds barely sprouted... Each represented something in my life, friendships, work, my relationship with God. Each was nourished according to the energy I devoted to it. I looked at the trees and knew that my relationship with God was the most important tree in my garden, but it wasn't getting as much water and light as it needed to grow big and strong. It was being crowded out by other trees who took up valuable space in my garden. I resolved then and there to thin out the things that were unimportant and put that time and energy into helping my 'relationship with God' tree grow and flourish. One day it will be the strongest tree, able to weather any storm, standing tall in the garden of my life.

I hope everyone finds it as inspiring as I have! :itwasntme:

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In the real world, such people - and I have no more idea what's in the guy's heart than you do - have much more complex and deep seated reasons behind their behavior - usually it's a matter that the dogma that they have been taught doesn't hold up in light of what they experience - their religion doesn't explain their experience.

I'm very humbled by that statement. Thank You.

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In the real world, such people - and I have no more idea what's in the guy's heart than you do - have much more complex and deep seated reasons behind their behavior - usually it's a matter that the dogma that they have been taught doesn't hold up in light of what they experience - their religion doesn't explain their experience.

This is generally what I've observed on my mission too: usually, people who are less-active or have fallen away from the church have huge backstories and deeply personal reasons for being inactive. There are so many reasons that trying to classify them or generalize them is impossible. Once I realized that, my entire perspective changed on reactivation. In my last area of my mission I had many long but very enjoyable conversations with a lot of less-actives that just needed somebody who was willing to listen to them. For some, me and my companion were the first people from the church they had seen (and talked to in good terms) in months. Although few of them were reactivated through my way of thinking, I became good friends with many of them. I'm hoping that plants some seeds for future missionary efforts. :)

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Perhaps. But that is what the man claimed.

Supposedly said - hear say - by a third party who was making a point. Regardless, people say lots of things to avoid telling the real stories to others only tangentially related to them. A little thought, however, avoids such unhelpful simplification.

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Guest mormonmusic

Supposedly said - hear say - by a third party who was making a point. Regardless, people say lots of things to avoid telling the real stories to others only tangentially related to them. A little thought, however, avoids such unhelpful simplification.

He served a mission, and is well-versed in the scriptures, is well-educated, and has been a member for several decades -- surely he knows Alma 32. He's read the BoM 15 times, he said. In fact, he has had spiritual experiences that convinced him it was true years ago. And he has made some pretty big sacrifices over the years, that he described to me. I was actually pretty impressed.

But his issues go way deeper than the SP talking about tithing all the time. Because there are people here that haven't made the leap from automatically condemning people for faith issues, to looking at the faith crisis with love, empathy, and tolerance, I hesitate to come out with more details. I believe that this will lead only to condemnation for his thinking, and place his current state solely on his back -- delivered with a strong dose of sarcasm or scorn based on what I've seen in previous posts. The fact is, he said some of his experiences are hard to justify by simply given what he believed to be true about our Church.

I think there is a class of believers who put forward extremely high levels of commitment because they believe the claims of our Church to the nth degree....but then, experience things that seem incredibly inconsistent with our claims. I see his faith crisis as a result of uber-strong belief and commitment throughout most of his life.

This is one of those efforts that take patience.

You know, it baffles me sometimes -- when people are somewhat committed and express faith issues, we tend to condemn them. We tend to take the attitude that "you're ticked off, well, that' your problem". Or we write off their issues with a simplistic statement "He got offended so now he's less active". Yet when people go stone cold, we go after them and try to reel them back in again as "reaching out to the less actives". In fact, there seems to be a greater willngness to chase after the people who are stone cold, than to keep the ones you are still warm, but sliding. And most of the time these stone cold people won't even talk to you about their REAL issues. At least half the battle is won in this case -- I know what his issues are and can at least address them with him.

Edited by mormonmusic
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For me, that phrase is what led to my faith crisis years ago. I had to work through it and now feel I am stronger with the phrase:

"The Church isn't perfect, and neither are the people".

Would it be better, perhaps, to say "The Full Gospel in its entire truth that we probably don't entirely comprehend and the works of God are perfect, but the earthly Church and its people aren't"?

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Would it be better, perhaps, to say "The Full Gospel in its entire truth that we probably don't entirely comprehend and the works of God are perfect, but the earthly Church and its people aren't"?

I personally like, "human beings are well known to struggle with managing the cognitive dissonance created by their perception of religious ideals and they actions of those they feel should uphold those ideals."

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I personally like, "human beings are well known to struggle with managing the cognitive dissonance created by their perception of religious ideals and they actions of those they feel should uphold those ideals."

I personally like, "The church may be perfect, but everyone other than me isn't. Wow. Check out how good I look, everybody."

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