What do Christians believe?


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I think of the snake handling pentecostals of Appalachia. We actually do not say they are not Christians. Neither are we comfortable simply considering them our strange brethren. Yet, maybe that is all there is to it with them. Likewise, the fire baptism with your proposed group.

The child sacrifice is beyond the pale though. Murder, in the name of Jesus? I suppose this is an extreme case where I would invoke the LDS refrain of judging a tree by its fruit.

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I think of the snake handling pentecostals of Appalachia. We actually do not say they are not Christians. Neither are we comfortable simply considering them our strange brethren. Yet, maybe that is all there is to it with them. Likewise, the fire baptism with your proposed group.

The child sacrifice is beyond the pale though. Murder, in the name of Jesus? I suppose this is an extreme case where I would invoke the LDS refrain of judging a tree by its fruit.

This is a trap PC. If I'm guess right, there will soon follow scriptural instances of all the practices listed for this hypothetical group.

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This is a trap PC. If I'm guess right, there will soon follow scriptural instances of all the practices listed for this hypothetical group.

Nah, I'm not looking for converts. I stated earlier that this group claims to follow biblical teachings and I'm willing to just leave it at that. I'm looking for where people are comfortable with drawing the Christian line. PrisonChaplain has been pretty open about his stance in the past and where he sees the line graying. I was hoping to hear from those that generously classify any group that claims to follow Jesus as Christians.

I can see where as LDS we would want that to apply, but there is a point where you can be so inclusive that the term becomes meaningless.

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I think of the snake handling pentecostals of Appalachia. We actually do not say they are not Christians. Neither are we comfortable simply considering them our strange brethren. Yet, maybe that is all there is to it with them. Likewise, the fire baptism with your proposed group.

The child sacrifice is beyond the pale though. Murder, in the name of Jesus? I suppose this is an extreme case where I would invoke the LDS refrain of judging a tree by its fruit.

I was specifically thinking of the snake handlers when I posted, but thought I'd escalate just to see how inclusive we would be. Depending on who the conversation was with (most of these conversations happen with my Indian coworkers), I might concede the Christianity of this hypothetical group, but I would have to add some of my own commentary or disclaimer. "I can see where they get some of their stuff from, but I don't think Jesus taught us to kill to be saved. I also don't think they'll survive as a religion unless they mellow out." If I was talking with another Christian, I would probably say that they aren't Christian (for reasons that I'll post later when I form a second cult, I mean religion). I think any public associations would only be a loose one. If they only had the fire-walking aspect, I don't think that would necessarily be problematic. Again, though, I'd probably put in a disclaimer in conversation, "They're Christian, just a bit wilder than what I'm used to."

I wonder if that kind of a stance would still be offensive though.

Edited by mordorbund
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Sorry I've been slow to respond to this mordorbund. I've had to do some serious thinking on this one. I still believe that anyone who is attempting to follow Christ would be considered Christian. Maybe misguided Christians, but still Christian. Think of the Roman Catholic Church and the Crusades. They committed all kinds of atrocities (murder, rape, pillaging, theft) in the name of their religion, yet they did so thinking that it was the right thing to do. What Christ wanted them to do.

I think that in situations like this one you've described, mordorbund, that the leaders of that particular church are possibly corrupt and misleading the members. The members I don't think would be faulted for their wrongdoing as much as the leaders would be for teaching them incorrectly. Just as the parents can be held responsible for the sins of their children if the parents fail to teach their children to the best of their abilities.

While it's a hard thing to swallow, I don't think it would be right to say these people are not "Christian". They are trying to follow Christ and doing what they think is right. They are just very very misguided.

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Sorry I've been slow to respond to this mordorbund. I've had to do some serious thinking on this one. I still believe that anyone who is attempting to follow Christ would be considered Christian. Maybe misguided Christians, but still Christian. Think of the Roman Catholic Church and the Crusades. They committed all kinds of atrocities (murder, rape, pillaging, theft) in the name of their religion, yet they did so thinking that it was the right thing to do. What Christ wanted them to do.

Interesting fantasy.

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Acts 11:26 where Christian was 1st used, it reads more as outsiders using the term not Christians themsleves.

I think that there are several ways the word is used by people.

Firstly it can be used for all people who in some way see themselves as followers of Christ. So that would include everybody from Christian Science, Liberal Catholics, LDS, Protestants, Christian Quakers etc The only criteria is that they see themselves as disciples of Jesus.

Secondly some people tend to use it as a term that means people who are in their opinion genuine disciples of Jesus. People who Jesus will accept into the kingdom. Nearly every group of christians has a differing list, although a large group has moved to agree to accept each other.

If your looking for a basic creed that the vast majority of Christian could assent to, then the Apostle's creed is probably the broadest. (PC would object to at least one line in the Nicene creed.)

I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried; he descended to the dead.

On the third day he rose again; he ascended into heaven, he is seated at the right hand of the Father, and he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting.

Amen.

Anything you LDS would object to in the above? Clearly doesn't cover all you believe but is there anything you would object to? Could you accept "creator" not "modifier" of heaven and earth? ("catholic" means universal not Roman Catholic)

Edited by AnthonyB
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For me, if a person tries to follow the teachings of Christ, and believes in his atonement, then I think they are a Christian.

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I'd like to take a second and thank everyone for a very civil, very informative thread! I've learned a lot of really neat stuff about the Trinity and what constitutes a Christian, etc. I am brand new, (tonight) to this forum and I just really had to stick my neck in here and say thanks! I'm a true believer that there can be harmony amongst the various sects in the world, if more people just sit down and have a civil conversation like what's happening here.

Sorry for the interuption, please return to what you were doing. :D

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PC,

This line from the Nicene creed...

"We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins."

BTW Back to your original post about salvation by grace, a common Church of Christ saying is....

"Saved by grace through faith at baptism."

Grace is how, faith is why, baptism is when.

Nobody doubts Luther believed in "salvation by grace" but he was equally supportive of its being part of a faithful response of faith. (Just he stuck with christianing babies not people who are themselves personally responding to Jesus.)

Edited by AnthonyB
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Anthony, good call. On the other hand, there is something powerful and cleansing about submitting to water baptism. It surely draws a line in the sand. And, I do have to wonder how many of my evangelical friends "said the sinners' prayer," but fell by the wayside, because they never followed through with water baptism, and never really became committed to the straight and narrow path.

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What is the fantasy? What's fantastical about what Judo wrote that you quoted?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JudoMinja

Sorry I've been slow to respond to this mordorbund. I've had to do some serious thinking on this one. I still believe that anyone who is attempting to follow Christ would be considered Christian. Maybe misguided Christians, but still Christian. Think of the Roman Catholic Church and the Crusades. They committed all kinds of atrocities (murder, rape, pillaging, theft) in the name of their religion, yet they did so thinking that it was the right thing to do. What Christ wanted them to do.

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Beefche:What is the fantasy?

madeline: (quoting me)...yet they did so thinking that it was the right thing to do. What Christ wanted them to do.

So are you saying that they didn't think they were doing the right thing? That they knew they were going against what Christ wanted? Or are you saying that what they thought Christ wanted them to do was fantasy? Because I'd agree with you there.

Now, I haven't done an intensive study of the Crusades, but I used that as an example because I figured it was pretty standard knowledge that those who went on the Crusades thought they were doing what the Lord wanted them to do. Just as in mordorbund's example of a postulated religion, I'm sure the followers believe they are doing the right thing. Why follow something, why do something, if you don't believe it is right? Perhaps this is just personal ignorance and naivity on my part, but I really believe that the base motivation for anyone doing anything is that they are at least trying to do what they think is right, and if they believe in Christ they will think that right is equal to what Christ wants. Even when people do something wrong, they typically think they are doing the right thing. Hence the line "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".

Judo: They committed all kinds of atrocities (murder, rape, pillaging, theft) in the name of their religion, yet they did so thinking that it was the right thing to do. What Christ wanted them to do.

Soninme: Which christ?

The point was that they thought they were doing the right thing. That they thought they were doing what Christ wanted.

Did Christ want the Crusades to happen? Maybe, maybe not. Did he want those on the Crusades to commit those crimes? I think most can agree that the answer would be "most certainly not". However, their leaders/generals often encouraged them to commit what we now know to be heinous crimes in the name of their religion. Remember too that in their time these things weren't necessarily considered crimes- they were a normal part of life. So, because their idea of what Christ wanted was wrong does that mean they weren't Christian? I don't think so. They were still striving to follow Christ and were just misinformed about how to do so.

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I can believe someone would kill an "infidel" and think they were doing God a favor. I suppose I can believe that someone could think that sacking a conquered city was, if not a service to God, perhaps a form of divinely sanctioned payment for services rendered. I have much greater difficulty believing that anyone could think, honestly, that raping someone constituted a service to God.

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The point was that they thought they were doing the right thing. That they thought they were doing what Christ wanted.

Did Christ want the Crusades to happen? Maybe, maybe not. Did he want those on the Crusades to commit those crimes? I think most can agree that the answer would be "most certainly not". However, their leaders/generals often encouraged them to commit what we now know to be heinous crimes in the name of their religion. Remember too that in their time these things weren't necessarily considered crimes- they were a normal part of life. So, because their idea of what Christ wanted was wrong does that mean they weren't Christian? I don't think so. They were still striving to follow Christ and were just misinformed about how to do so.

Just a thought;

Luke 6:46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?

We may call ourselves Christians but all that really matters is if Jesus would call us one.

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Just a thought;

Luke 6:46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?

We may call ourselves Christians but all that really matters is if Jesus would call us one.

And I suspect if either side of this conversation, Trinitarian or LDS, were told by Christ they weren't Christian they wouldn't argue with him. Until he shows up though...

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So are you saying that they didn't think they were doing the right thing? That they knew they were going against what Christ wanted? Or are you saying that what they thought Christ wanted them to do was fantasy? Because I'd agree with you there.

Now, I haven't done an intensive study of the Crusades, but I used that as an example because I figured it was pretty standard knowledge that those who went on the Crusades thought they were doing what the Lord wanted them to do. Just as in mordorbund's example of a postulated religion, I'm sure the followers believe they are doing the right thing. Why follow something, why do something, if you don't believe it is right? Perhaps this is just personal ignorance and naivity on my part, but I really believe that the base motivation for anyone doing anything is that they are at least trying to do what they think is right, and if they believe in Christ they will think that right is equal to what Christ wants. Even when people do something wrong, they typically think they are doing the right thing. Hence the line "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".

The point was that they thought they were doing the right thing. That they thought they were doing what Christ wanted.

Did Christ want the Crusades to happen? Maybe, maybe not. Did he want those on the Crusades to commit those crimes? I think most can agree that the answer would be "most certainly not". However, their leaders/generals often encouraged them to commit what we now know to be heinous crimes in the name of their religion. Remember too that in their time these things weren't necessarily considered crimes- they were a normal part of life. So, because their idea of what Christ wanted was wrong does that mean they weren't Christian? I don't think so. They were still striving to follow Christ and were just misinformed about how to do so.

Short synopsis, Islamic armies had already invaded and taken over large ares of Asia and the middle-East that were centers of Christianity. This being a result of islamic Crusades that had been going on since Mohammed began them himself in the late 7th century. The Islamic belief was/is, that the only true justice is Islamic justice, and so the defeat and forced submission to Islam being an act of justice. Centers of Christianity had already been defeated, and the populations forced to convert to Islam. Antioch, Nicaea, Thessalonica, Ephesus, Jerusalem all had fallen to Islam.

When the Seljuk Turks invaded Levant, the Byzantine Emperor requested military assistance from Pope Urban II, who sent men (mainly peasants) to Anatolia, the primary goal being to aid the Byzantine monarch in defending Anatolia. The goal was soon expanded to the reconquest of Jerusalem, which had been under Islamic rule for over 400 years at that point.

That was the purpose of the the first crusade.

What you said is, "They [Roman Catholics] committed all kinds of atrocities (murder, rape, pillaging, theft) in the name of their religion"

To think that the purpose of the Christian Crusades was to rape, murder, pillage and steal, done "in the name of their religions", or that anyone would think that was desired by Christ is a conclusion that I don't even know how you got to, let alone could attempt to defend.

Peace.

Edited by madeleine1
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To think that the purpose of the Christian Crusades was to rape, murder, pillage and steal, done "in the name of their religions", or that anyone would think that was desired by Christ is a conclusion that I don't even know how you got to, let alone could attempt to defend.

And why exactly would she go about attempting to defend your strawman?

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On the Crusades, men were told (and some women as support system) that if they went to restore Jerusalem, they would be guaranteed salvation in Christ.

Guess what? They believed what they were told. They had a mandate to destroy the wicked unbelievers, even as Moses and Joshua wiped out entire cities before them. Rape was just a part of war back then. Militaries were not these well trained and regimented corps, but a bunch of rag tag farmers and glory seekers, who were following the orders of their lords, many of whom were also very rough around the edges.

In a time of indulgences and Inquisition, it isn't that hard to imagine that men would rape and torture in the name of God, in order to scare the Muslims out of the Holy Land.

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What you said is, "They [Roman Catholics] committed all kinds of atrocities (murder, rape, pillaging, theft) in the name of their religion"

To think that the purpose of the Christian Crusades was to rape, murder, pillage and steal, done "in the name of their religions", or that anyone would think that was desired by Christ is a conclusion that I don't even know how you got to, let alone could attempt to defend.

I never said that the purpose of the Crusades as to commit all those crimes. I just said that many of those crimes were commited in the name of their religion. Given it was taught this way in my history classes, is presented this way in many popular films, and from my limited research on the Crusades but extensive knowledge of the midieval time period was the impression I got.... I'd say it was likely the case. Granted, historical records are not always accurate and there is no way we can know exactly what happened all those years ago, but given the general mentality of the time period and the ease with which leaders can convince followers to commit crimes for a greater cause, I don't find it all that far fetched.

As Vort pointed out, some of those crimes are more easily attributed to such misguided endeavors while others are harder to excuse or justify. However, my intent was not to say that the purpose of the Crusades was murder, rape, etc. The thing is, we cannot say, just because people do something we know to be wrong and consider horrific that they are not at least trying to follow Christ. If their intent is to follow Christ I would call them Christian, and then leave it up to the Lord to ascertain the real intent and direction of their hearts come judgment day.

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