Priesthood keys... and when someone else turns them.


Recommended Posts

Guest mormonmusic

Yes, I understand that you think you are much more intelligent and spiritually in tune than old "JS". Not everyone agrees, though. And in the end, your opinion and two bucks will buy you a cup of hot chocolate at Starbucks.

Oh come on Vort. I think you might've worded it a bit more respectfully than that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh come on Vort. I think you might've worded it a bit more respectfully than that.

You know what? I don't hold you in contempt. But I do hold in contempt the attitude that Joseph Smith (or "JS") was an ignorant amateur who just did not understand all the sophisticated nuances of interpersonal relationships that you do. What makes you think that your understanding either of Priesthood keys or of the administration of the kingdom of God is sufficient for you to offer criticism of how the Church is organized?

Do you seriously believe that it is your place to offer a public lecture on how Priesthood keys should be distributed? Because I, personally, don't. To me, it seems rather disloyal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest mormonmusic
Hidden

Vort -- when I first came to this site a couple years ago, I used to really seek out your posts. They were witty, often insightful, and I looked forward to them. I don't know what it is, but it seems lately, if anyone offers a divergent opinion of any kind, you respond with this caustic tone which, if offered in real life, would create relationship issues. As far as I'm concerned, it nullifies your influence and also throws a wet blanket on further dialogue.

It's almost as if you're trying to pick a fight.

It reminds me fo the scene in Rob Roy where this heavyweigth named Gunther (or similar) started challenging Rob Roy to a sword fight. He said "the first one who draws blood is the winner" and pulled his sword.

Rob Roy gently passes his hand over the sword, making a slight cut which drew blood. Roy holds up his hand, showing the blood and replies "You win".

I'm going to follow the example of Rob Roy on this one, and probably most others you initiate.

You win Vort.

Link to comment

I believe Joseph Smith was inspired in how the keys were distributed. It eminently makes a lot of sense. HPGLs do not need keys, as the Stake President has the authority to delegate the rights and authorities of those keys to the HPGL, while at the same time maintaining the authority over it.

In Joseph's day, Stakes of Zion were established to be equal with Zion. In the instance that a stake were to be cut off from the rest of the Church, the stake president has all the keys necessary to continue the work. With the recent addition of Area Authorities, we now also have the ability to manage things on a multi-stake level, in case communication with SLC was cut off.

If the keys of the Melchizedek Priesthood and the High Priesthood resided exclusively on the ward level, the stake president would be impotent. As I said before, the HPGL and EQP, keys or not, are both to get their main direction from the stake president, usually through the high counselor. At any moment, a stake president can suspend an EQP and his keys, or release a HPGL. That is his authority and right holding keys that no one else in a stake holds (including the EQP or bishop).

I'm saddened to think some would suggest that Joseph Smith was naive or didn't know what he was doing in setting up the priesthood in this way. BTW, the concept of the Aaronic Priesthood being set up with deacons 12-13 yrs, teachers 14-15, and priests 16-18, did not come about in Joseph's day. It came much later. Joseph's focus was on establishing the Melchizedek Priesthood and the keys pertaining to it. The high priest quorum on a stake level was more active together in Joseph's day, as most of ours now only meet once or twice a year as a quorum (mine meets this Sunday morning at 7am). However, my stake president has his thumb on the pulse of the quorum.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest mormonmusic

Rameumpton:

1) Maybe this was covered previously -- I don't remember, but my understanding is that the EQP holds the keys to his ward quorum. However, the HPGL does not hold such keys with respect to his quorum. That is why the EQ is an EQ President, while the leader of the HP is a HPG Leader.

That is the disconnect I'm talking about. Why have different key levels for the men quorums? Why delegate the keys to the EQ President, but retain them for the HP quorum, making the HPGL a leader without keys? Functionally, it seems to make no difference as in the two wards I served as HPGL, I had as much decision-making authority as the EQ President at the local level, in practice. Put another way, why doesn't the Stake President delegate the keys to the HP Quorum for Ward issues, and simply retain them for Stake issues. Put yet another way, why does the Stake President retain presidency of the HP Quorum but not the EQ quorums?

2) Now, you are saying the SP holds the keys to both the quorums then, and to not hold such keys would render him without power. I would like to follow your reasoning -- the follow-on implication is that the prophet is without keys if he delegates them to a Stake President. Which I think we all agree isn't the case.

Looking foward to your explanation Rameumpton, as this was one lingering question I had when I heard our SP indicate our SP had keys, but not our HPGL.

Edited by mormonmusic
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest gopecon

The SP is the president of the HP Quorum. He can't delegate the keys, although he can (and does by calling HPGL's) delegate authority to direct their work at the ward/branch level. It's not that delegating keys to HPGL and EQP would render him keyless and impotent - it wouldn't. Since HP quorums are at the stake level, and (at the stake level and below) only quorum presidents have keys, he cannot give keys to an HPGL, and he can't organize other HP quorums. That would be like a EQP calling and setting apart another EQP. You can't pass along keys laterally, they move up and down with callings and releasings.

To the original question about directing the work...Stake Presidents, like anyone else, have various leadership styles. Some tend to micromanage things to the point that it feels like the leaders they have under them are not leading but only following orders. Other's allow more room for personal decision making, with the attendant possibility of failure or success that they can't control. I would bet that even working under micromanaging leadership, an EQP or HPGL can find ways to exercise the authority that they have been given and personally magnify their callings.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest mormonmusic

Since HP quorums are at the stake level, and (at the stake level and below) only quorum presidents have keys, he cannot give keys to an HPGL, and he can't organize other HP quorums.

I get this -- I understand that's the way it is -- that the SP is the president of the HP quorum and that the entire stake is one big HP quorum. Therefore, he can't delegate keys to the HP quorums. Got it.

But I'm asking about the WHY of it. Why is it this way for HP, but not for EQ? Why isn't the EQ one big Stake organization too, with the SP as the president, with and the Ward having EQL (Elder's Quorum Leaders) then, if the HP group is organized that way? Why the difference in the organization of these two quorum leaderships?

Edited by mormonmusic
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I get this -- I understand that's the way it is -- that the SP is the president of the HP quorum and that the entire stake is one big HP quorum. Therefore, he can't delegate keys to the HP quorums. Got it.

But I'm asking about the WHY of it. Why is it this way for HP, but not for EQ? Why isn't the EQ one big Stake organization too, with the SP as the president, with and the Ward having EQL (Elder's Quorum Leaders) then, if the HP group is organized that way? Why the difference in the organization of these two quorum leaderships?

I believe part of the answer lies somewhere in the sizes and numbers in quorums. In general, Elders far outnumber High Priests in most wards.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest gopecon

I think the WHY of it comes down to because that is how the Lord set it up. This is a "constitutional" issue, not a procedural one. For whatever reason, as priesthood responsibility grows, so does the size of the quorum.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest mormonmusic

Right -- it's the "for whatever reason" part I'm wondering about. Whenever a priesthood leader teaches us about it, I never see the point of it because rarely, if ever do the HP's synergize on a Stake level. I think we had one Stake-wide HP Quorum meeting my whole life.

Also, the concept of a "key" never made much sense to me either.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I get this -- I understand that's the way it is -- that the SP is the president of the HP quorum and that the entire stake is one big HP quorum. Therefore, he can't delegate keys to the HP quorums. Got it.

But I'm asking about the WHY of it. Why is it this way for HP, but not for EQ? Why isn't the EQ one big Stake organization too, with the SP as the president, with and the Ward having EQL (Elder's Quorum Leaders) then, if the HP group is organized that way? Why the difference in the organization of these two quorum leaderships?

The basic organizational unit of the Church is and always has been the stake, ever since stakes were first introduced. Even today, the full program of the Church is experienced only within a stake. Districts and missions are ersatz stakes at best.

As you know, the Melchizedek Priesthood must be present in any organized congregation. For this reason, elders are ordained in missions and districts. But the only regularly ordained high priest in a mission is the mission president himself; all other Priesthood holders are elders, unless a high priest or patriarch happens to relocate into the mission boundaries. Since all Priesthood actions take place on a local (branch or district) level, it makes sense that the quorums exist at the local level, as well.

Once a stake is formed, a lot of men are ordained high priests. This is because the office of high priest is required for all Priesthood leadership positions within the stake, aside from non-high-priest-quorum presidencies. The high priests always function on a stake level within their callings as high priests. (They can, of course, be called to local-level callings, but that is not explicitly a high priest calling.) Thus, to my mind, it is only reasonable that the high priests quorum exist on a stake level. It would make no sense for the quorum to exist at the level of individual wards.

On the contrary, elders always function on a local level within their callings. Thus, it is reasonable that the elders quorum, like the various Aaronic Priesthood quorums, exists at the ward level.

Btw, speaking to john doe's point: In my experience, the number of active high priests in a typical ward is roughly equal to the number of active elders. There may be a slight preponderance of elders, but I don't think it's a hugely disparate number outside of student-heavy wards.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest mormonmusic

Thus, to my mind, it is only reasonable that the high priests quorum exist on a stake level. It would make no sense for the quorum to exist at the level of individual wards.

Personally, I see why it makes no sense, in spite of your reasoning here... in my several years as a HPGL, we never had anything to do with the other HP in the Stake. It was clearly a Ward phenomenon when it came to service, home teaching organization, fellowship, etcetera. Even the local leaders belonged to the HP quorum (Bishopric for example) and never identified with a Stake HP Quorum.

I think this may well have served some purprose in the early days of the Church, that perhaps is no longer relevent. However, it has no impact on the functioning of the Ward or the HP quorum, so there is no reason to change it.

I see it as an interesting philosophical question. Next time someone starts teaching about keys and reminding us all the Stake President is the keyholder of the Stake HP Quorum (which really, has no identity) I may ask these questions and see what I get.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
Guest mormonmusic

You know what? I don't hold you in contempt. But I do hold in contempt the attitude that Joseph Smith (or "JS") was an ignorant amateur who just did not understand all the sophisticated nuances of interpersonal relationships that you do. What makes you think that your understanding either of Priesthood keys or of the administration of the kingdom of God is sufficient for you to offer criticism of how the Church is organized?

Do you seriously believe that it is your place to offer a public lecture on how Priesthood keys should be distributed? Because I, personally, don't. To me, it seems rather disloyal.

To me, your comment seems myopic and epitomizes our tendency to put our brains on the shelf regarding existing ways of doing things. Your assessment of my coment as a "public lecture", your accusation that I think I'm somehow smarter than Joseph Smith, and hold him out as an "ignorant amateur" represents a huge extrapolition frome what I said, is deeply offensive to me. In fact, all the inferences you've made about my motives and such turn off any further meaningful dialogue on this subject for me.

About Joseph Smith, I think made mistakes as a leader in many ways, but I still maintain he was a religious genius, creating a Church that has lasted as long as ours had. I think his translation of hte Book of Mormon is groundbreaking. The other things you accuse me of simply because I questioned the applicability of the quorum size growing with the maturity of its members are completely unwarranted in my view.

To me, it's a philosophical question among men of goodwill...when goodwill evaporates, so does my interest in pursuing the thread any further, as is the case with this one.

Edited by mormonmusic
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share