How many eternal families will there be?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Something to think about ...

If "eternal family A" and "eternal family B" are both admitted into the Celestial Kingdom how would the relationships that exist between siblings (in other words, not the married couple of the family) within a specific family A or B be any different from the relationships between one sibling from family A with one member of family B?

We are all spiritual brothers and sisters and I think that will still be in place after this life. That relationship of being brothers and sisters has been going on for a long time. Would that relationship be superseded by who was one's biological or sealed brother or sister in this life?

In other words, outside the marriage bonds that exist between a man and a woman, wont all that are in the Celestial Kingdom be sealed to each other as one big family? Won't they all be sealed in some form through Abraham, Noah or Adam? Then a brother from family A would think of the brother from family B as his equal brother just as much as another brother from family A, there would be no distinction. Of course, the relationships between spouses would be greater than all of that. So, if that idea is correct, then the "organization of the family" is really just one big family with subsets of married "families" which are the relationships between married men and women. Not to deny the subsets of the father-son, father-daughter, mother-son, mother-daughter but those, I think would be trivial compared to the mother looking at the daughter as a sister, and the father looking at the son as a brother of the bigger spiritual family.

Am I totally off base with that thought? Guess it depends on how strongly people believe that we are foremost children of God over any probationary, temporary title we may have had stewardship over in this life. That doesn't go against the idea that families are forever, the one spiritual family is certainly forever. The difference is how many "eternal families" there really are.

[Jenamarie]

There will be ONE family. The Family of Christ. :)

[annewandering]

hmm yes but We will have our family (blood relationships) too. How can my husband be my husband if we are not a family?

[Jenamarie]

hmm yes but We will have our family (blood relationships) too. How can my husband be my husband if we are not a family?

Of course he'll still be your husband, and your children your children, but my understanding of the Sealing Covenant doesn't convey an image of nuclear family units to me (as far as those spirits who lived here on earth, of course we'll continue to have posterity and have "family units" from those).

I see Eternal Families as more of a broad family tapestry, rather than isolated clusters of individuals (but of course there will be couples). I feel we'll have as much love for our fifth cousin twice removed, as we will to our own earthly children, when we're in the Eternities. (this is one of the reasons why I think we're encouraged to keep journals and share family stories, so we can get to know our ancestors as individuals *now*, rather than as just distant names. Our hearts will be "turned" towards them, as much as they are towards our immediate family). We'll all be connected by the Sealing covenant.

[mikbone]

An infinite amount of eternal families

Everyone in our pre-mortal existance were spiritual siblings.

But with each successive connection the relationship must get stronger...

Those who sided with Jehovah instead of Lucifer.

No doubt we had closer relations with some spirits moreso than others prior to Earth life.

We have significant attachment with the family/friends we have made here on Earth.

The Sealing ordinance must be one heck of a bond.

No doubt the bond of Husband and Wife is greatest though.

I assume that it will be much like it is here on Earth. For those that make it to the highest lvl of the Celestial Kingdom I believe we will all hang out for a long period of time and continue to learn and progress. Eventually husbands and wives will want to continue to progress by leaving the nest and creating their own spiritual families.

Perhaps when a celestial sealed couple wishes to start creating their own spiritual children they have to leave the nest and go to a distant part of the universe and create their own galaxy or equivalent... I would assume that the relationships of spiritual parents and spiritual children will trump all other relationships other than that of sealed spouses. Although a person's relationship to thier savior must be somewhat special...

Edited October 20, 2011 by mikbone

[annewandering]

I agree to a point mlkbone. I think that our bonds here will supersede the spiritual because it is not only spiritual but physical. My children here were born to me. No way is anyone else more important to me. Not saying others are not important but we have a special bond to our family here.

[james12]

I started trying to answer some of these questions and while typing I realized I was asking more than I was answering. Anyway here are my thoughts...

Maybe in the limited sense of salvation some of these questions about family ties to spirit brothers and sisters versus physical brothers and sisters have some validity. But when we finally reach perfection will this discussion have meaning?

We must look to Christ as the only perfect being we know in any detail. Could anyone say that Christ loves his immediate family more than me or you? What of his atonement? There is a rather surprising scripture in the bible which says, "While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother." (Matt 12:46-50) How little we understand of family ties!

In asking this I have another thought. What of the relationship between God the Father to Christ the Son? Are the Father's ties to Christ stronger than the ties to us? It makes me think of the scripture in Moses 4:1. Here Lucifer is speaking to the Father asking to be the Only Begotten, "Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore forgive me thine honor." Is it even possible that another could be God's Son, the Only Begotten? Our knowledge is so limited when discussing family relationships and the eternities.

Then there is the issue of our first estate and the almost infinite amount of time when we were learning and growing. We know almost nothing of relationships there. We were sons and daughters of God, but I have a host of questions about what that meant. For now I file them in the back of my mind until the day I'm given more understanding. President Kimball mentions the issue in his talk Our Great Potential, he says, "But no parent has ever yet on this earth been the parent of a spirit, because we are so far yet from perfection....Could you produce a spirit? Has anyone whom you know ever produced a spirit? This is a power not given to mortal man, so there is much for us to learn." I agree, there is so much for us to learn!

[Seminarysnoozer]

I would assume that the relationships of spiritual parents and spiritual children will trump all other relationships other than that of sealed spouses.

It is interesting how you said this and yet a post after yours says they agree with you, that the physical children relationship will supersede the spiritual. I don't think they really read it.

I kind of look at it this way, metaphorically, who I sat next to in 1st grade doesn't matter a whole lot right now, unless I happened to continue a relationship with them after the first grade and even longer than school itself. That kind of relationship can be continued if we want it to but it is not meaningful unless we make it meaningful. There is nothing intrinsically more special about it than the spirit brother and sister designation that we all came here with. .... in my opinion.

Who do you think a person would have a stronger relationship with in the next life; a person that you fellowshiped and loved to the point of joining the church and living the gospel or your great great great grand uncle? Is blood that strong?

Or even would the great great great grand uncle relationship be any stronger than anyone we know if we are fortunate to make it into the Celestial Kingdom (keeping in mind all those people would be sealed by our link through Abraham)?

If the link through Abraham is stronger, why would there be any other "family"? Seems like there would just be one family.

[Seminarysnoozer]

We must look to Christ as the only perfect being we know in any detail. Could anyone say that Christ loves his immediate family more than me or you? What of his atonement? There is a rather surprising scripture in the bible which says, "While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother." (Matt 12:46-50) How little we understand of family ties!

Thanks for your post. I agree.

It is interesting how there are no families outside the Celestial Kingdom. One step beyond that (which again is just a thought, not our gospel) is that there is only one family, the Celestial Family. This is how our family can be an eternal family. If we all make it to the Celestial Kingdom we can all be a part of the Celestial Family and thus be together as a family forever. Anybody who is caught outside the Celestial glory however is not part of the Celestial Family even though they may have been part of our family here.

As far as the other question you raised, I think God had in mind Jesus as the Savior as he was the 'top of the class' so-to-speak. There was no other more advanced and ready than Him. I believe there were probably others who could have done it as well if given God's blessing, ordaining and if they received an Only Begotten body in this life. But it is given to the top individual for a reason. The exact reason, I don't know. Most of us are probably in the bottom 2/3 of the class (so to speak) except a few noble and great ones allowed to come to serve specific missions. In other words, any one who could have done it was not likely to be one of us, probably one of those that die before the age of 8 or have Down's syndrome etc, one of those that don't need the test.

I think families can be together forever but what that means to me is that I will be calling my daughter, "sister" and my son "brother" and my mother will be referring to me as "sister" but maintain the memories of our earthly relationships as mother-daughter (if we are all fortunate enough to make it there).

[sister_in_faith]

It is interesting how there are no families outside the Celestial Kingdom.

Is this true? So even if I am sealed to my mother (who I am 99% sure won't make it to the CK - but I could be wrong!) and she doesn't make it then she isn't considered my mother? Or did I misunderstand?

I always thought that you were still sealed to members of your family and even if some of you were in the CK and others were in the other two TKs you were still a 'family'?

[annewandering]

Sister-in-Faith, my family will always be my family no matter where we end up. The blessings of a celestial family wont be available to those not in the Celestial Kingdom. Before you give up on your mom just remember that God hasn't. If God hasn't then why should you?

The idea that we wont be individual families seems to be getting a lot of play lately. Frankly I have no idea why unless people have been getting into Eastern Religions more. I strongly feel that this is not true. Being with our families is a major backbone of our Church. It frightens me to see it being undermined by speculation of members of the church. In the last days we are told there will be many members of the faith drawn away by false prophets and teachings. Sadly it looks like this is one of those.

I dont mean to offend but this is just not right.

Edited October 24, 2011 by annewandering

[Dravin]

SiF, what SeminarySnoozer is proposing that there are effectively two family relationships:

1) That of being a child of God.

2) That of being husband and wife.

The 2nd only holds true in the Celestial Kingdom (to obtain a spousal sealing and live worthy of it would put one in the Celestial Kingdom), and the 1st is equally true of your mother, my mother, and a random Chinese woman of 900 BC. So if I'm reading her right, then families (in the sense of a unique and special relationship, that of spouse) only exist in the Celestial Kingdom.

Given her premises the statement makes sense.

[Guest gopecon]

There will be relationships beyond just husband and wife in the Celestial Kingdom, otherwise why would we go to the trouble of sealing children to parents? That said, we need to remember that we will all be "adults" in the Celestial Kingdom. Our children who make it there will have their own spouses - which is the primary family unit. So while I will have a sealed relationship with my children, it will probably be more akin to an extended family that can come visit for the holidays than everyone under one "roof" with Mom, Dad, brother and sister.

The ultimate goal of the sealing ordinances is to form an unbroken chain of priesthood sealings from the last person born on Earth all the way back to Adam and Eve. We'll all be "connected", but I'm sure that our close family relationships that we enjoy now will be able to continue in some way in the Celestial Kingdom. As with many things, we will just have to wait and see to have all of the answers.

[annewandering]

“We, the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator's plan for the eternal destiny of His children.

”All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

“In the premortal realm, spirit sons and daughters knew and worshiped God as their Eternal Father and accepted His plan by which His children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experience to progress toward perfection and ultimately realize his or her divine destiny as an heir of eternal life. The divine plan of happiness enables family relationships to be perpetuated beyond the grave. Sacred ordinances and covenants available in holy temples make it possible for individuals to return to the presence of God and for families to be united eternally.

”The first commandment that God gave to Adam and Eve pertained to their potential for parenthood as husband and wife. We declare that God's commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in force. We further declare that God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife.

“We declare the means by which mortal life is created to be divinely appointed. We affirm the sanctity of life and of its importance in God's eternal plan.

”Husband and wife have a solemn responsibility to love and care for each other and for their children. 'Children are an heritage of the Lord' (Psalms 127:3). Parents have a sacred duty to rear their children in love and righteousness, to provide for their physical and spiritual needs, to teach them to love and serve one another, to observe the commandments of God and to be law-abiding citizens wherever they live. Husbands and wives—mothers and fathers—will be held accountable before God for the discharge of these obligations.

“The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. Successful marriages and families are established and maintained on principles of faith, prayer, repentance, forgiveness, respect, love, compassion, work, and wholesome recreational activities. By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation. Extended families should lend support when needed.

”We warn that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.

“We call upon responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society” (Ensign, Nov. 1995, 102).

Reread this and you will see that families, plural, are part of the Celestial Kingdom.

[sister_in_faith]

Sister-in-Faith, my family will always be my family no matter where we end up. The blessings of a celestial family wont be available to those not in the Celestial Kingdom. Before you give up on your mom just remember that God hasn't. If God hasn't then why should you?

Thank you anne! I agree that she will still be my mom no matter where she is... I was just worried that there was some teaching saying that families don't exist outside the CK and that didn't seem right... As for giving up on her, no, I haven't! But she has told me that if God himself appeared before her and told her that this church was true she would not believe him because she, as a woman, could not be the head of the church (the prophet), then she knows that the church is not of good but of evil. She is a pretty hard core feminist, and dead set against the church because she doesn't feel there is equalitiy for women in it. My patriarchal blessing says that she will one day be prepared to hear the message, so that gives me hope. But today, her intense hatred of anything that doesn't follow her narrow vision of what is good (she refers to HF as 'she' and Godess rather than God, and doesn't believe the Bible is the word of God because it was 'written by men' with the goal of oppressing women, I could go on, and on, and on... and.... on.... ugh) makes me tend to think she probably wouldn't listen to our teachings, even after death, BUT my patriarchal blessing gives me hope!

Sorry guys, that was just a little personal aside... Carry on!

[Jenamarie]

ETA: This post is in response to the posting of the Proclamation on the Family. Just to be clear. :)

Yes, but are they families as in "Husbands and wives and the children they bore here in mortality", or "husbands and wives and the spirit children they will bare as Exalted beings"? (my own *personal* opinion [so please don't read it as doctrine] is towards the latter, although of course we'll have relationships with those who were are immediate family in mortality)

We're ALL going to be connected. I'll be Sealed to my parents, who will be Sealed to their parents, who will be sealed to *their* parents, ad nauseum, and all of us Sealed to our children who will be Sealed to *their* own spouses and children, etc... do you see what I'm getting at? And at the same time, Eternity gives you plenty of time to get to know your fourth-cousin-twelve-times-removed pretty well. We'll be learning to love as God loves, and grow and mature together as we progress through the Eternities.

ETA(again): I see those of us who share the experience of going through mortality during this "round" of Heavenly Father's creation as being that "one family", but each Sealed couple has the potential of creating MORE families in the Eternities. So there is both ONE family, and the potential for many. :)

Edited October 24, 2011 by Jenamarie

[sister_in_faith]

I have to say that this thread has opened my understanding of the idea of being one big eternal family. After all we are all related having come from Adam and Eve! As well as being spirit sisters and brothers... It is awesome! I love the idea of being related to all of you, and loving you as family. Ive always wanted to go to one of those family reunions where everyone is wearing the same color shirt... Hey! Let's do that! We can all wear white!

[annewandering]

ETA: This post is in response to the posting of the Proclamation on the Family. Just to be clear. :)

Yes, but are they families as in "Husbands and wives and the children they bore here in mortality", or "husbands and wives and the spirit children they will bare as Exalted beings"? (my own *personal* opinion [so please don't read it as doctrine] is towards the latter, although of course we'll have relationships with those who were are immediate family in mortality)

We're ALL going to be connected. I'll be Sealed to my parents, who will be Sealed to their parents, who will be sealed to *their* parents, ad nauseum, and all of us Sealed to our children who will be Sealed to *their* own spouses and children, etc... do you see what I'm getting at? And at the same time, Eternity gives you plenty of time to get to know your fourth-cousin-twelve-times-removed pretty well. We'll be learning to love as God loves, and grow and mature together as we progress through the Eternities.

ETA(again): I see those of us who share the experience of going through mortality during this "round" of Heavenly Father's creation as being that "one family", but each Sealed couple has the potential of creating MORE families in the Eternities. So there is both ONE family, and the potential for many. :)

I think I agree. We are all connected by our mortal family connections AND our spirit family connection. We will still have that fourth cousin twelve times removed who is also our spiritual brother.

Someone I know had an interesting dream once. He was standing in a huge room with lines of people radiating out from a center. In each line there were breaks where people were missing. He looked at the line he was in and saw his father and his fathers father, etc going back in the distance as far as he could see. He knew the spaces were places where temple work had not been done and there were breaks in the family lines.

Of course that is not gospel or anything but it emphasized to me how important it was to get temple work for our families done so the lines are connected forever in eternity.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I have to say that this thread has opened my understanding of the idea of being one big eternal family. After all we are all related having come from Adam and Eve! As well as being spirit sisters and brothers... It is awesome! I love the idea of being related to all of you, and loving you as family. Ive always wanted to go to one of those family reunions where everyone is wearing the same color shirt... Hey! Let's do that! We can all wear white!

Yes, and what you said here makes me think of possibly one of the reasons we are all sealed to Adam and Eve is maybe that is how there will be "different" families in the Celestial Kingdom, possibly the family of Adam as opposed to the family of George (or whatever name the first man and women are on some other world).

[mordorbund]

Yes, and what you said here makes me think of possibly one of the reasons we are all sealed to Adam and Eve is maybe that is how there will be "different" families in the Celestial Kingdom, possibly the family of Adam as opposed to the family of George (or whatever name the first man and women are on some other world).

2 Nephi 9:21

For behold, he suffereth the pains of all men, yea, the pains of every living creature, both men, women, and children, who belong to the family of Adam.