failing to endure to the end?


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Remember that Heavenly Father knows your heart better than you do. You can't fool him! I think you know that there would be consequences for deliberately not doing as Heavenly Father wants, with the intention of 'repenting' later. I don't know what they would be, but I don't intend to find out. Ask the spirit if whatever you want to do is the right thing or not. I bet that any guilt you may or may not feel is his way of telling you to be careful.

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I think Alma 34 answers your question

32 For behold, this alife is the time for men to bprepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of cthis life is the day for men to perform their dlabors.

33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many awitnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not bprocrastinate the day of your crepentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the dnight of edarkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful acrisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth bpossess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become asubjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth bseal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.

"I do not believe in the ideas that we hear sometimes advanced in the world, that it matters but little what men do in this life, if they will but confess Christ at the end of their journey in life, that that is all-sufficient, and that by so doing they will receive their passport into heaven. I denounce this doctrine. It is unscriptural, it is unreasonable, it is untrue, and it will not avail any man, no matter by whom this idea may be advocated; it will prove an utter failure unto men". -Joseph F. Smith, Conference Reports, p. 3, October, 1907

"We should take warning and not wait for the deathbed to repent, as we see the infant taken away by death, so may the youth and middle-aged as well as the infant be suddenly called into eternity. Let this, then, prove as a warning to all not to procrastinate repentance, or wait till a deathbed, for it is the will of God that man should repent and serve Him in health, and in the strength and power of his mind in order to secure His blessing, and not wait until he is called to die." -Joseph Smith, Jr., Documentary History of the Church 4:554, March 20, 1842

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Guest mormonmusic

In the end, everyone will acknowledge that God's judgments are just. He says we should not be weary in well-doing, and that we should endure to the end...however, in the very end, I think God will look over the landscape of our life and make a judgment about what we did.

I personally am very tired of the experience of being a Mormon at this point in my life given some of the relentless life experiences associated with my Church membership ... I often wonder what God will think of me for not going full tilt like I did for so many years. My hope is that he will be merciful, particularly when/if I get a second wind.

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Speaking generally, what happens if I knowingly don't "endure to the end"? And, why? Can't I just repent in the spirit world? If I can't do that, then for what reason can I not?

Thank you.

You appear to think that this life is a game, and if we play by the rules, the Great Judge will give us our reward for winning.

Life is not a game. Life is a process of becoming. What are you becoming? Are you becoming a man who is totally dedicated to God and who wishes to do his bidding, come what may? If so, you will be comfortable dwelling in his presence. If not, you will not be comfortable there, and will need to dwell somewhere else, where you ARE comfortable.

If you have no desire to endure to the end in this life, you will not magically acquire that desire when you die. As Amulek taught, that same spirit that possesses your body when you leave this world will have power to possess it in the eternal world. Two verses earlier, Amulek explained that this life is the time to prepare to meet God.

So what if you don't have desire to endure to the end? Are you hopelessly lost? Not at all. Just start praying for that desire. Pray to come to know your Father better and to desire what he would have you desire. Serve him as best you can. Your heart will change, and eventually you will come to have the desires that you now seem to lack. You will become strong and able to be faithful to the end.

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As far as death-bed repentance...this is what I found on the subject...

Alma 34:32–34—Why Is It Important to Repent and Prepare in This Life?

Elder Bruce R. McConkie taught: “This life is the time that is given for men to repent and prepare to meet God. Those who have opportunity in this life to accept the truth are obligated to take it; otherwise, full salvation will be denied them. Hopes of reward through so-called death-bed repentance are vain” (Mormon Doctrine, 631).

In the end, everyone will acknowledge that God's judgments are just. He says we should not be weary in well-doing, and that we should endure to the end...however, in the very end, I think God will look over the landscape of our life and make a judgment about what we did.

I personally am very tired of the experience of being a Mormon at this point in my life given some of the relentless life experiences associated with my Church membership ... I often wonder what God will think of me for not going full tilt like I did for so many years. My hope is that he will be merciful, particularly when/if I get a second wind.

I have had a rough time too in many ways and sometimes it can be very difficult to be on this Earth getting our mortal experience. I think we all struggle at times with life's most difficult experiences...some of them can be so very, very hard. I hope that you get your second wind soon my friend!!! :)

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Speaking generally, what happens if I knowingly don't "endure to the end"? And, why? Can't I just repent in the spirit world? If I can't do that, then for what reason can I not?

Thank you.

You certainly can (not endure to the end). I think you are really on to something here. Good luck free thinker.

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Thanks for your replies. I'm sure Alma 34 does answer both of my questions, but I don't quite get it. I feel Elder McConkie's talk about the "second-chance theory" offers similar insights. What is the exact reason that waiting until the spirit world won't work? From pondering over the scriptures I see a few different reasons alluded to...

a) Even though there is repentance in the spirit world, it will not be enough for me to be found worthy to go to the celestial kingdom because I wasted the days of my probation and, according to the laws of God, that sets me outside His kingdom.

or

b) It it will be very difficult to repent because of the condition of my spirit coupled with Satan's powerful influences on me, and I probably don't want to "take those odds" for lack of a better phrase.

or

c) something I haven't thought of

Thanks again for your help. Any references that you have are greatly appreciated as well.

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Thanks for your replies. I'm sure Alma 34 does answer both of my questions, but I don't quite get it. I feel Elder McConkie's talk about the "second-chance theory" offers similar insights. What is the exact reason that waiting until the spirit world won't work? From pondering over the scriptures I see a few different reasons alluded to...

a) Even though there is repentance in the spirit world, it will not be enough for me to be found worthy to go to the celestial kingdom because I wasted the days of my probation and, according to the laws of God, that sets me outside His kingdom.

or

b) It it will be very difficult to repent because of the condition of my spirit coupled with Satan's powerful influences on me, and I probably don't want to "take those odds" for lack of a better phrase.

or

c) something I haven't thought of

Thanks again for your help. Any references that you have are greatly appreciated as well.

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I think its more basic in this case. By saying you are going to 'eat, drink, and be merry' and repent after you die is thumbing your nose at God. It speaks of a rebellious and carnal spirit, a few more things to repent of. By the time life is done there may be so many things to repent of that it would take forever to do it with that attitude.

.

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Speaking generally, what happens if I knowingly don't "endure to the end"? And, why? Can't I just repent in the spirit world? If I can't do that, then for what reason can I not?

I'm not sure what you are really asking. When you talk about not enduring to the end do you mean that the weight of what is expected of you is bringing you down and you are considering doing less? Or do you mean that you are considering committing a sin of comission and repenting later? I believe that between these two issues is a world of difference.

Based on your comment about repenting in the spirit world I suspect it is the latter. This lie Satan speaks is so subtle. We are not earning points in the "good" column to reach heaven. We cannot simply remove points from the "bad" column through repentance. As if anyone could knowingly commit sin without being changed both in spirit, body, and mind. Let me say this again, sin changes who we are! The light of our spirit is darkened, the natural man takes control, and our thoughts are confused. This is why it is hard to return and repent, because we think and feel differently then we did before we committed the sin. After the sin we make excuses and try and justify what we have done. We find reasons to postpone repentance, often assuming we will do it later. We think we are strong when we are actually weak, and the lies go on and on.

Now regarding repentance in the spirit world. From all I have read it appears that repentance in the spirit world is much more difficult than in this world. Some authorities have estimated ten times more difficult. Why? I believe it is because we will not have a body. A body gives us power over those spirits who do not have bodies including Satan and his hosts.

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As if anyone could knowingly commit sin without being changed both in spirit, body, and mind. Let me say this again, sin changes who we are!

Truer words were never spoken. Maybe I'll make this my sig.

EDIT: James, do you mind?

Edited by Vort
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I apologize for making this second account. I was unaware it was against the rules and probably should have known it was anyways. I meant no harm by it. It was essentially for the purpose of changing my username and I planned on then sticking with this account. Can I just delete the other one?

...As far as this thread, I'm getting a lot out of it. Thanks everybody. I think it's necessary that I mention that I have no plans on breaking my covenants by either premeditated sin or sins of omission. I'm just trying to understand a doctrine that hasn't quite sat right with me lately. I apologize for playing devil's advocate in my style of asking. I just thought it might illicit a more direct answer. I always have questions about the gospel because I'm always thinking about it, but I'm the only member of my family and I'm fairly new in my ward so I don't have a ton of people to direct all of my questions to.

Sorry for any confusion.

From everyone's comments and from the scriptures I have read since I made this thread, I believe God will judge everyone's situation individually, but generally speaking, we have to endure to end to inherit eternal life (2 Ne 9:24, 3 Ne 27:17, Mosiah 2:38-39, and Mosiah 15:26). I'd really like to understand why though. I believe the answer is stated in Alma 34:32-34, but I'm not completely understanding.

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what happens if I knowingly don't "endure to the end"? And, why? Can't I just repent in the spirit world?

Man has the godgiven gift of free agency.

Therefore you may do anything you wish.

You must know however, that when you do something that is contrary or against the law it is sin. The justice and judgement of sin will fall on nobody's head but your own. You cant trick yourself into thinking you can somehow escape by repenting later. Dont procrastinate the day of your repentence, nor die in your sins for the realization of your own guilt will be of the most bitter kind, a place set aside where there is weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 And there shall ye remember your ways, and all your doings, wherein ye have been defiled; and ye shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for all your evils that ye have committed.

Ezekial 20:43

14 Wherefore, we shall have a perfect knowledge of all our guilt, and our uncleanness, and our nakedness; and the righteous shall have a perfect knowledge of their enjoyment, and their righteousness, being clothed with purity, yea, even with the robe of righteousness.

2nd Nephi 9:14

25 And if they be evil they are consigned to an awful view of their own guilt and abominations, which doth cause them to shrink from the presence of the Lord into a state of misery and endless torment, from whence they can no more return; therefore they have drunk damnation to their own souls.

Mosiah 3:25

43 The spirit and the body shall be reunited again in its perfect form; both limb and joint shall be restored to its proper frame, even as we now are at this time; and we shall be brought to stand before God, knowing even as we know now, and have a bright recollection of all our guilt.

Alma 11:43

Edited by ConvinceTheWorld
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Speaking generally, what happens if I knowingly don't "endure to the end"? And, why? Can't I just repent in the spirit world? If I can't do that, then for what reason can I not?

Thank you.

If you abuse it, you lose it.

And why not? Because then God would have to allow everyone else in the same situation to do so, as well as negating one of the reasons for being in this life. Also if you procrastinate now, you will procrastinate later, and there will not be very much to motivate you to change in the next life.

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I apologize for making this second account. I was unaware it was against the rules and probably should have known it was anyways. I meant no harm by it. It was essentially for the purpose of changing my username and I planned on then sticking with this account. Can I just delete the other one?

...As far as this thread, I'm getting a lot out of it. Thanks everybody. I think it's necessary that I mention that I have no plans on breaking my covenants by either premeditated sin or sins of omission. I'm just trying to understand a doctrine that hasn't quite sat right with me lately. I apologize for playing devil's advocate in my style of asking. I just thought it might illicit a more direct answer. I always have questions about the gospel because I'm always thinking about it, but I'm the only member of my family and I'm fairly new in my ward so I don't have a ton of people to direct all of my questions to.

Sorry for any confusion.

From everyone's comments and from the scriptures I have read since I made this thread, I believe God will judge everyone's situation individually, but generally speaking, we have to endure to end to inherit eternal life (2 Ne 9:24, 3 Ne 27:17, Mosiah 2:38-39, and Mosiah 15:26). I'd really like to understand why though. I believe the answer is stated in Alma 34:32-34, but I'm not completely understanding.

I think the key to understanding this isn't in the "why" we have to endure, but in what enduring really means. Mormonmusic mentioned that he is at a point in his life where it is more difficult for him to go "full tilt" in the gospel, and I think many would say he is not "enduring" if he is not giving it his all- but I think these people would be mistaken. I do not think that is what it means to "endure to the end".

Think of a long-distance, cross country race. Do the runners always run at the same pace throughout the entirety of the race? No. Their pace changes and flows with the terrain. Going uphill takes more work, so the pace is slower. Downhill is easy, but run too fast and you'll trip and fall, so the pace is fast but not too fast. When you have a nice open stretch, that is when you can really give it your all- but still don't run too fast or you won't have enough energy to handle the coming hills.

The idea is to pace yourself. Cross-country isn't about running as fast as you can. It's about running for as long as you can, and you have to know your body and your abilities well enough to set the pace so that you can make it to the end.

Now, not only do we need to pace ourselves, but we also need to build ourselves up and get stronger so that we can handle more as we travel further in life. This part is like weight training. The idea is to lift as much as you can for a few repetitions and then rest. Then repeat until you feel like you cannot lift any more. Your muscles then need a day to recover and "rebuild" before you lift again. This process slowly makes you stronger, and you will find yourself able to lift or bear heavier and heavier loads as the weeks and months go by.

What happens if we stop completely? We get cramps, winded, lose what we've worked so hard to accomplish. When we stop we are not enduring. But when we are having a hard time- going up a hill or just feeling ill- slowing our pace is an important part of enduring.

Enduring means we keep on trying, we keep on trudging forward even when things are hard, and we don't give up. We hold fast to "the iron rod" and our testimonies when times are troubling or difficult so that we do not lose our progress and can get back in the game when our path becomes a little smoother. We cannot always give it our "all", and that is okay. As long as we aren't giving up and are always striving to better ourselves.

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Faith and Repentance 3 | Mormon Beliefs

Repentance Here and Hereafter-Alma, a Nephite prophet, described the period of earthly existence as a probationary state, granted unto man for repentance; yet we learn from the scriptures that repentance may be obtained, under certain conditions, beyond the veil of mortality. Between the times of His death and resurrection, Christ “preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah”; these the Son visited, and unto them He preached the Gospel, “that they might be judged according to men in the flesh; Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.”

No soul is justified in postponing his efforts to repent because of this assurance of longsuffering and mercy. We know not fully on what terms repentance will be obtainable in the hereafter; but to suppose that the soul who has wilfully rejected the opportunity of repentance in this life will find it easy to repent there is contrary to reason. To procrastinate the day of repentance is to deliberately place ourselves in the power of the adversary. Thus Amulek taught and admonished the multitude of old: “For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; * * * therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; * * * Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world. For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his.”

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Guest Magen_Avot

ihaveaquestion... you should be aware that having two accounts is against the rules here and can get both account banned.

Just curious,... how do you know there is a second account? :confused:

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I apologize for making this second account. I was unaware it was against the rules and probably should have known it was anyways. I meant no harm by it. It was essentially for the purpose of changing my username and I planned on then sticking with this account. Can I just delete the other one?

...As far as this thread, I'm getting a lot out of it. Thanks everybody. I think it's necessary that I mention that I have no plans on breaking my covenants by either premeditated sin or sins of omission. I'm just trying to understand a doctrine that hasn't quite sat right with me lately. I apologize for playing devil's advocate in my style of asking. I just thought it might illicit a more direct answer. I always have questions about the gospel because I'm always thinking about it, but I'm the only member of my family and I'm fairly new in my ward so I don't have a ton of people to direct all of my questions to.

Sorry for any confusion.

From everyone's comments and from the scriptures I have read since I made this thread, I believe God will judge everyone's situation individually, but generally speaking, we have to endure to end to inherit eternal life (2 Ne 9:24, 3 Ne 27:17, Mosiah 2:38-39, and Mosiah 15:26). I'd really like to understand why though. I believe the answer is stated in Alma 34:32-34, but I'm not completely understanding.

I think JudoMinja said it best but just to add my two cents. ...

Looking at Alma 34:32-34, you may be wrestling with the word labor and that there will come a day when there is no labor. I think sometimes, not sure if this is with you, people misinterpret that form of the word labor to mean that one won't do any kind of work after this life. What it means, in my opinion, is a reference to the same reason Christ says come unto my rest. As in Matthew 11:28-29. This labor is the struggle that our spirits face in this world. This is part of the test we face. When we die, we give up this testing situation. That is why this is the time to labor against our bodies, against temptation, against the corruption of this world. We won't and don't want to have to face that for the rest of our existence. If we take on Christ's yoke, the struggle is easier. I think people get weary when they try to take on the world's yoke at the same time they are trying to live righteously. If one takes on Christ' yoke, truly, then endurance is easier.

If we want to change the nature of our soul, our spirits, this is the time to work that out. Otherwise, how we are is how we are, as there won't be a struggle, i.e. - night of darkness wherein no labor can be performed, after we die.

I kind of think of a tough soldier going through boot camp and says to his leaders, 'I will never leave behind a fellow soldier, I will always follow orders' while he is in boot camp but the real test is the battle field. If the soldier who claims he will do well while in the battle field does not follow orders and does not give of himself for his fellow soldiers while in the middle of the battle, he is not going to be able to go back after the battle and say that he would.

This life is a chance to walk the walk and not just talk the talk. We all talked the talk, by keeping our first estate, we all said we would endure to the end already. Going back afterward to, in essence, say the same thing we did before we came here, which is "I will follow and obey and endure to the end" is not going to prove anything if we failed to do it while we had the chance. Just to say "I will obey from now on" is not any further than where we were before coming here. This is the time to advance beyond just saying it. This is a time for labor.

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Wow this is great stuff! You're absolutely right though, I'm stuck on "then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor preformed." What does that mean? Verses 34 and 35 make all the sense in the world to me: If we procrastinate, our spirit will be conditioned to wickedness and Satan will have tremendous power over us.

I also recognize that if someone were to knowingly not keep their covenants in this life and then somehow turn it around in the spirit world, they could obtain the terrestrial kingdom at best (D+C 76:74, Joseph Fielding Smith in Answers to Gospel Questions, Vol. 4).

So, it the spirit world, the wicked who had the gospel and knowingly rebelled CAN repent, but can only go to the terrestrial kingdom. But what is the reason that the celestial kingdom is ABSOLUTELY closed to them? Yes, it will be very very hard for them to repent and it's very unlikely that they will, however, that is not saying that they CAN'T go to the celestial kingdom.

I'm guessing there is some sort of penalty for not enduring to end or maybe some opportunities to fully repent are no longer there, therefore the celestial kingdom is no longer an option. Am I making sense to anyone? :)

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"then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor preformed." What does that mean?

The temporary spot in the darkness is what happens to every living being w hen it dies. We are left in the darkness to self loathe and work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

Every time you sin the sword of justice continually is spinning around your head until you have atoned* for it. Which is to say, you have satisfied the demands of JUSTICE.

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Wow this is great stuff! You're absolutely right though, I'm stuck on "then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor preformed." What does that mean? Verses 34 and 35 make all the sense in the world to me: If we procrastinate, our spirit will be conditioned to wickedness and Satan will have tremendous power over us.

I also recognize that if someone were to knowingly not keep their covenants in this life and then somehow turn it around in the spirit world, they could obtain the terrestrial kingdom at best (D+C 76:74, Joseph Fielding Smith in Answers to Gospel Questions, Vol. 4).

So, it the spirit world, the wicked who had the gospel and knowingly rebelled CAN repent, but can only go to the terrestrial kingdom. But what is the reason that the celestial kingdom is ABSOLUTELY closed to them? Yes, it will be very very hard for them to repent and it's very unlikely that they will, however, that is not saying that they CAN'T go to the celestial kingdom.

I'm guessing there is some sort of penalty for not enduring to end or maybe some opportunities to fully repent are no longer there, therefore the celestial kingdom is no longer an option. Am I making sense to anyone? :)

I don't think it is a punishment, but simply something that cannot be done. I think those who procrastinate their repentance or do not "endure to the end" will be incapable of making the progression into the celestial kingdom. Why? Because only while here in this life can we face the challenges of mortality and learn to overcome them. Self-mastery is part of why we are here. We have to overcome the urges of the flesh and learn to control and curb our appetites, so that our spirits are the masters and not the other way around.

What happens when we die? Our spirit is separated from our body. How do you learn self-mastery if you have no body or physical urges to master? What happens when we are resurrected? We are reunited with our bodies, BUT our bodies are changed. I believe that these changes include the perfecting of our "carnal state", leaving nothing for us to "master".

The "labor" is what Seminarysnoozer described- it is the work that can only be performed in mortality, because it will simply be impossible to perform once we die. I believe that we will continue to progress after this life, but that our progression will be different. Only now can we perform the physical "labor" of self-mastery. If we put that off, our spirits become weaker and weaker and more subject to the "wills of the flesh". If we fail to "endure" and put off working on this progression, our chance will be lost- because once it is time to move forward we cannot go back and regain the time that we wasted.

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Wow this is great stuff! You're absolutely right though, I'm stuck on "then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor preformed." What does that mean? Verses 34 and 35 make all the sense in the world to me: If we procrastinate, our spirit will be conditioned to wickedness and Satan will have tremendous power over us.

I also recognize that if someone were to knowingly not keep their covenants in this life and then somehow turn it around in the spirit world, they could obtain the terrestrial kingdom at best (D+C 76:74, Joseph Fielding Smith in Answers to Gospel Questions, Vol. 4).

So, it the spirit world, the wicked who had the gospel and knowingly rebelled CAN repent, but can only go to the terrestrial kingdom. But what is the reason that the celestial kingdom is ABSOLUTELY closed to them? Yes, it will be very very hard for them to repent and it's very unlikely that they will, however, that is not saying that they CAN'T go to the celestial kingdom.

I'm guessing there is some sort of penalty for not enduring to end or maybe some opportunities to fully repent are no longer there, therefore the celestial kingdom is no longer an option. Am I making sense to anyone? :)

I think it is important to have a feel for the idea that the placement within a Kingdom is not so much of a reward thing as it is a placement amongst the kinds of spirits one is saying they want to be around.

Terrestrial spirits are not going to want to hang out, so-to-speak, with Celestial spirits for any length of time, etc. They wouldn't feel comfortable with the Celestial lifestyle. The Telestial spirits would also probably feel uncomfortable with a Terrestrial lifestyle. This life is an opportunity to tell God, this is what is in my heart's desire, this is what I am made of and this is the kind of life I want to live forever.

If one really wants to live a Celestial lifestyle, they will seek it out in this world and hunt for it continuously. If they are okay with living it part way and they would rather have a relaxed view of things, they will reveal that about themselves. God will take into account all the variables and know, 100% at the end of this life what kind of person we are. There is no guessing or mistake about it. If one is found to be a Terrestrial type person, that is the person they are. And they will be the most happy they could possibly be in that Kingdom. A Terrestrial person would not be more happy in a Celestial world. Just like a Celestial person would not be the most happy in a Terrestrial world.

Just because someone does all the "right things" doesn't qualify them for the Celestial world either, they have to want it, it has to be a desire of their heart. The test is that, the desire of the heart, not getting all the answers right and then you get the reward, it is a revealing of what we really want in our hearts desire, the true nature of our spirit that we are showing. That desire is shown by what we choose when we are put in this situation of choosing between good and evil. If the nature of the spirit is to do things part way and be okay with that then that will continue in the next life, even after repenting. We were matured spirits when we got here. That aspect of our character is not going to change and God knows that 100% after this life, enough to assign us to a Kingdom for the eternities. He will put us in the Kingdom where our spirit will be the most happy. This is a plan of happiness. He will not put us in a Kingdom that will undershoot our individual potential.

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