failing to endure to the end?

[pam]

Just curious,... how do you know there is a second account?

IP and email

[james12]

What happens when we are resurrected? We are reunited with our bodies, BUT our bodies are changed. I believe that these changes include the perfecting of our "carnal state", leaving nothing for us to "master".

This may just be a point of clarification. It sounds like you are saying that our carnal state (ie physical bodies) will be perfected at the resurrection such that we will not need to work anymore to overcome the flesh. In other words our bodies will be perfect in character and attributes. I don't believe this is the case.

As you have stated our bodies will be separated from our spirits at death. While in the spirit world we will not have our bodies to aid us in overcoming certain carnal temptations and sins. Hence in large measure we will be unable to effect much progression while in the spirit world.

At the resurrection the glory we attain will be largely based on our righteousness in this life. Our bodies will be quickened based on our obedience to law. Bruce R. McConkie has said:

The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies--some celestial, others terrestrial, others telestial, and some with bodies incapable of standing any degree of glory. The body we receive in the resurrection determines the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared. (The Seven Deadly Heresies, BYU Fireside Address June 1, 1980)

Melvin J. Ballard stated:

Those who come forth in the celestial glory with celestial bodies have a body that is more refined. It is different. The very fiber and texture of the celestial body is more pure and holy than a telestial or terrestrial body, and a celestial body alone can endure celestial glory.(Sermons and Missionary Services of Melvin J. Ballard, comp. Bryant S. Hinckley (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1949), 256.)

However, while we will all receive a perfect frame it is clear we will not be free from sin at the resurrection. Our bodies will simply be restored "carnal for carnal" or "good for good" (see Alma 41:13, D&C 76:16-17, Resurrection - general-conference). We will still have much work to do before our character and attributes are perfected. Indeed, it will be a long time after the resurrection before we are perfect.

[Seminarysnoozer]

This may just be a point of clarification. It sounds like you are saying that our carnal state (ie physical bodies) will be perfected at the resurrection such that we will not need to work anymore to overcome the flesh. In other words our bodies will be perfect in character and attributes. I don't believe this is the case.

As you have stated our bodies will be separated from our spirits at death. While in the spirit world we will not have our bodies to aid us in overcoming certain carnal temptations and sins. Hence in large measure we will be unable to effect much progression while in the spirit world.

At the resurrection the glory we attain will be largely based on our righteousness in this life. Our bodies will be quickened based on our obedience to law. Bruce R. McConkie has said:

Melvin J. Ballard stated:

However, while we will all receive a perfect frame it is clear we will not be free from sin at the resurrection. Our bodies will simply be restored "carnal for carnal" or "good for good" (see Alma 41:13, D&C 76:16-17, Resurrection - general-conference). We will still have much work to do before our character and attributes are perfected. Indeed, it will be a long time after the resurrection before we are perfect.

I disagree with most of what you are saying here. Our character will not change after this life. We were mature spirits before coming here. We came here to gain experience not to become a different person. We can grow in character but not change character. The attributes of our character will not change.

When we are resurrected we will not need to overcome carnal temptations any more, we will rest from those labors. There is still work to do in the next life and growth to be had but not in terms of overcoming evil or carnality. The spirit can keep with it carnal desires if it leaves this life with them but it will not have to fight carnal temptations, I think those things are different. Carnal temptations are things that come spontaneously from the body, they are not first generated by the spirit. Without a body we can't have carnal temptations, we can only have carnal habits that are from the scars left by giving into carnal temptations during this life.

Please explain why you think the body "aids in overcoming carnal temptations" when it is the source of carnal temptations. Maybe what you mean is that the carnal temptations wont be there and so we cant work on them, which I agree. And in fact, from that point on we wont work on overcoming carnal temptations. The perfected body will not bring around any carnal temptations. We will rest from those labors.

[james12]

I disagree with most of what you are saying here. Our character will not change after this life. We were mature spirits before coming here. We came here to gain experience not to become a different person. We can grow in character but not change character. The attributes of our character will not change.

I'm not sure if our disagreement here is semantics or substance. What do you mean we can grow in character but not change? I agree we will not be a different person, but is growth change? Do you agree that our desires appetites and passions will remain after we are resurrected?

When we are resurrected we will not need to overcome carnal temptations any more, we will rest from those labors. There is still work to do in the next life and growth to be had but not in terms of overcoming evil or carnality.

How then will these carnal temptations be overcome? Is the resurrection a ticket to be free from carnal temptations? Isn't the body which I lay down the same one I take up at the resurrection?

EDIT: Carnal temptations may be a poor word choice on my part. We may not be directly tempted by Satan after the resurrection but our appetites and passions will remain. Thus we still must improve our character.

And now behold, is the meaning of the word restoration to take a thing of a natural state and place it in an unnatural state, or to place it in a state opposite to its nature? O, my son, this is not the case; but the meaning of the word restoration is to bring back again evil for evil, or carnal for carnal, or devilish for devilish—good for that which is good; righteous for that which is righteous; just for that which is just; merciful for that which is merciful. (Alma 41:12-13)

And again from Elder Oaks:

The principle of restoration also means that persons who are not righteous in mortal life will not rise up righteous in the resurrection (see 2 Ne. 9:16; 1 Cor. 15:35–44; D&C 88:27–32). Moreover, unless our mortal sins have been cleansed and blotted out by repentance and forgiveness (see Alma 5:21; 2 Ne. 9:45–46; D&C 58:42), we will be resurrected with a “bright recollection” (Alma 11:43) and a “perfect knowledge of all of our guilt, and our uncleanness” (2 Ne. 9:14; see also Alma 5:18).

The spirit can keep with it carnal desires if it leaves this life with them but it will not have to fight carnal temptations, I think those things are different. Carnal temptations are things that come spontaneously from the body, they are not first generated by the spirit. Without a body we can't have carnal temptations, we can only have carnal habits that are from the scars left by giving into carnal temptations during this life.

Agreed. In the spirit world we will not have carnal temptations only carnal habits as scars to the spirit.

Please explain why you think the body "aids in overcoming carnal temptations" when it is the source of carnal temptations. Maybe what you mean is that the carnal temptations wont be there and so we cant work on them, which I agree. And in fact, from that point on we wont work on overcoming carnal temptations. The perfected body will not bring around any carnal temptations. We will rest from those labors.

The body is indeed the source of carnal temptations but when we allow the spirit within us to control our body Satan losses control. Those who have a body have power over those who do not. Thus our body aids us in overcoming the temptations of Satan. Edited October 27, 2011 by james12

[Seminarysnoozer]

I'm not sure if our disagreement here is semantics or substance. What do you mean we can grow in character but not change? I agree we will not be a different person, but is growth change? Do you agree that our desires appetites and passions will remain after we are resurrected?

How then will these carnal temptations be overcome? Is the resurrection a ticket to be free from carnal temptations? Isn't the body which I lay down the same one I take up at the resurrection?

EDIT: Carnal temptations may be a poor word choice on my part. We may not be directly tempted by Satan after the resurrection but our appetites and passions will remain. Thus we still must improve our character.

And again from Elder Oaks:

Agreed. In the spirit world we will not have carnal temptations only carnal habits as scars to the spirit.

The body is indeed the source of carnal temptations but when we allow the spirit within us to control our body Satan losses control. Those who have a body have power over those who do not. Thus our body aids us in overcoming the temptations of Satan.

Yes, I think the resurrection is the ticket to be free of carnal temptations. That may be where we differ in thought about this. The Celestial, Terrestrial and Telestial glories are all glories of God and therefore do not contain any bit of evil. There will be no drive to evil there at all. There will be no temptations in that sense. Will the body have passions, sure. Will they need to be "overcome"? I don't think so. I think a resurrected body will be in alignment with the spirit 100% whereas in this existence we are dual beings with both spiritual and carnal influences that often oppose each other. The opposition we experience is to gain that experience and be tested. The opposition is gone when the test is over. For some, the test isn't over until after spirit prison but for everybody the test is over at the time of resurrection.

Looking at Elder Oaks quote, I am not sure if you are equating "righteousness" with temptations? If anything one's level of righteousness in this life raises the level of temptations but after this life is over the temptations are gone. Come unto my rest.

Metaphorically, the body you lay down is the one you take up but not the actual one and not the same design. In my opinion, I think people even in the church have varied views of this, but obviously the same exact molecules that make up the body are not going to be extracted maybe from someone else body to bring back their body. If one's dead body is eaten by a wolf, the wolf dies and fertilizes a tree that grows an apple and that is incorporated into someone else body, who gets the molecule? person one or two. To think that it is the same exact body is a strange thought. Also, why would I want a corrupted body on resurrection. I want a perfected body, so it is not the same type either, it is a glorified perfected body either of the Celestial type, the Terrestrial type or the Telestial type of which there are many as one star differs in glory one from the other. What is being said there is that a person who is not very righteous won't get a fully righteous body. A Terrestrial spirit, in other words, won't get a Celestial body. That is what Elder Oaks is saying. ... in my opinion.

[james12]

Yes, I think the resurrection is the ticket to be free of carnal temptations. That may be where we differ in thought about this. The Celestial, Terrestrial and Telestial glories are all glories of God and therefore do not contain any bit of evil. There will be no drive to evil there at all. There will be no temptations in that sense. Will the body have passions, sure. Will they need to be "overcome"? I don't think so. I think a resurrected body will be in alignment with the spirit 100% whereas in this existence we are dual beings with both spiritual and carnal influences that often oppose each other. The opposition we experience is to gain that experience and be tested. The opposition is gone when the test is over. For some, the test isn't over until after spirit prison but for everybody the test is over at the time of resurrection.

I can agree there will be no temptations of Satan. However, our bodies will not be free from the effects of sin. Evil passions and desires will still need to be overcome. The resurrection gives us a perfect frame, free from disability etc., but that does not mean we magically become perfect people. From Mormon Doctrine under Resurrection:

Bodily perfection will come to all men as a free gift in the resurrection. But even though all persons are raised from mortality to immortality, from corruption to incorruption, so that disease and physical impairment are no longer found, this mere fact of resurrection does not give peace of mind, the knowledge of God, a hope of eternal life, or any of the great spiritual blessing which flow from gospel obedience. These blessing are not free gifts....all rewards gained in the eternal worlds must be earned.

Imperfect, unjust people will be resurrected and will not be made perfect at the resurrection. Isn't this part of what caused Joseph Smith to marvel after reading John 5:29? What on earth is the resurrection of damnation? He says,

Speaking of the resurrection of the dead, concerning those who shall hear the voice of the Son of Man: And shall come forth; they who have done good, in the resurrection of the just; and they who have done evil, in the resurrection of the unjust. Now this caused us to marvel, for it was given unto us of the Spirit. (D&C 76:16-18)

If unjust people are resurrected and the restoration is simply the bringing back of evil for evil and good for good, how is it that appetites and passions will not need to be overcome?

[Seminarysnoozer]

I can agree there will be no temptations of Satan. However, our bodies will not be free from the effects of sin. Evil passions and desires will still need to be overcome. The resurrection gives us a perfect frame, free from disability etc., but that does not mean we magically become perfect people. From Mormon Doctrine under Resurrection:

Imperfect, unjust people will be resurrected and will not be made perfect at the resurrection. Isn't this part of what caused Joseph Smith to marvel after reading John 5:29? What on earth is the resurrection of damnation? He says, If unjust people are resurrected and the restoration is simply the bringing back of evil for evil and good for good, how is it that appetites and passions will not need to be overcome?

You are misinterpreting the quote from Mormon Doctrine. It is simply saying that there is a difference between the reward from keeping our first estate versus the reward of keeping our second estate. It is saying that the gift of immortality is different than eternal life. I have not said anything contrary to that.

It is saying that one shouldn't assume that just because they get the gift of immortality that doesn't mean that person will have eternal life, those two things are different. Eternal life comes from being obedient to the commandments given in this life. There is nothing there that says the struggle will continue on after this life.

If you are going to use Joseph Smith to help you translate that verse then I suggest you use Joseph Smith's translation which says; John 5:29 " 29 And shall come forth; they who have done good, in the resurrection of the just; and they who have done evil, in the resurrection of the unjust." (not damnation)

"The resurrection of the damnation" are not the correct words. To understand the correct word, unjust, read the parable of the "unjust" servant. This is the servant who only cares about his own welfare when given his stewardship. He didn't do a good job taking care of the given stewardship but still wanted the reward for serving, so this is unjust. So long as 'I've got mine' is his attitude and his character. People who have that attitude and live their life that way will be resurrected in the resurrection of the unjust, which is the resurrection of the selfish people. From that verse Joseph better understood the 3 Kingdoms and received additional information about that. That verse, in no way, is saying that those people will be resurrected evil or remain with their evil temptations.

[james12]

Seminarysnoozer,

I respect your opinion and want to understand your thoughts so let me ask a few questions (incidentally for other's reading this post I would love to hear your thoughts as well). However, I reserve the right to comment and ask further questions.

1. Will we be perfect in characteristics and attributes when we are resurrected? If so, how will it happen? Note: I do not mean perfect in form or free from death, disease, maladies etc. I take that as a given.

2. If we are not perfect, what do we need to improve and how do we do it?

Please provide quotes and scriptures where possible.

Edited October 28, 2011 by james12

[Seminarysnoozer]

Seminarysnoozer,

I respect your opinion and want to understand your thoughts so let me ask a few questions (incidentally for other's reading this post I would love to hear your thoughts as well). However, I reserve the right to comment and ask further questions.

1. Will we be perfect in characteristics and attributes when we are resurrected? If so, how will it happen? Note: I do not mean perfect in form or free from death, disease, maladies etc. I take that as a given.

2. If we are not perfect, what do we need to improve and how do we do it?

Please provide quotes and scriptures where possible.

Thanks, this is an interesting conversation.

I believe number 1 is closer to what I believe but perfect in the extent of perfected to the limit of our own righteousness. Remember that Eternal Life is a gift, it is an inheritance. Think about what the word inheritance means. Inheritance is not something someone works for and earns dollar for dollar. If I worked and earned $200,000, that does not mean my inheritance is $200,000. My inheritance could be any amount depending on what my parents left me. In this case one's inheritance is based in righteousness during this life and taking into account one's valiant life before this life. Then God will decide which level of inheritance we receive, Celestial, Terrestrial or Telestial (which can vary as the stars vary). And that level is embodied in the perfected resurrected body. A Terrestrial body will never become a Celestial body but it will still be "perfect".

I don't have time right now to go any further but here is one scripture to think about;

D&C 88:29-32 " 29 Ye who are aquickened by a portion of the celestial bglory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the aterrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the atelestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

32 And they who remain shall also be aquickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are bwilling to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received."

What does "even a fullness" mean? It means they receive the fullness of that level of inheritance that they were worthy of. If it is a fullness, there is no more need for perfecting or changing, it has reached its full potential as far as that goes.

If I get a perfect grade in 6th grade, straight A's, I can be perfect at that level and still have the ability to do more but as far as perfecting my perfect straight A's in 6th grade I can't. If one gets straight A's in high school but never goes onto college, how can they perfect their high school grades any more, they cannot. But that does not make them a college graduate. Whatever kingdom we enter is a Kingdom of glory, it is a straight A grade for that level. It is a fullness of that level. Just like we would never think of going back to try to pass the first estate test again, why? we already passed it.

Perfecting is part of the second estate task. When we are done with the second estate, we are done. That doesn't mean we can't continue to learn but refining our character and who we are will be done, it will be defined.

[panacea]

Have you seen the BYU devotional by Brad Wilcox on 7/12/11? The title is "His Grace is Sufficient".

His Grace is sufficient. You will receive the glory that you will be most comfortable receiving.

[james12]

I believe number 1 is closer to what I believe but perfect in the extent of perfected to the limit of our own righteousness. Remember that Eternal Life is a gift, it is an inheritance. Think about what the word inheritance means. Inheritance is not something someone works for and earns dollar for dollar. If I worked and earned $200,000, that does not mean my inheritance is $200,000. My inheritance could be any amount depending on what my parents left me. In this case one's inheritance is based in righteousness during this life and taking into account one's valiant life before this life. Then God will decide which level of inheritance we receive, Celestial, Terrestrial or Telestial (which can vary as the stars vary). And that level is embodied in the perfected resurrected body. A Terrestrial body will never become a Celestial body but it will still be "perfect".

I can agree that Eternal Life is ultimately a gift from God received by living righteously.

I don't have time right now to go any further but here is one scripture to think about;

D&C 88:29-32 " 29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial bglory shall then receive of the same, even a fullness.

30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the aterrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fullness.

31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the atelestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fullness.

32 And they who remain shall also be aquickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are bwilling to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received."

What does "even a fullness" mean? It means they receive the fullness of that level of inheritance that they were worthy of. If it is a fullness, there is no more need for perfecting or changing, it has reached its full potential as far as that goes.

If I am given a gift (even the fullness of a gift) does that mean that I am now perfect? In other words, can God by giving me what he has make me who he is?

If I get a perfect grade in 6th grade, straight A's, I can be perfect at that level and still have the ability to do more but as far as perfecting my perfect straight A's in 6th grade I can't. If one gets straight A's in high school but never goes onto college, how can they perfect their high school grades any more, they cannot. But that does not make them a college graduate. Whatever kingdom we enter is a Kingdom of glory, it is a straight A grade for that level. It is a fullness of that level. Just like we would never think of going back to try to pass the first estate test again, why? we already passed it.

Perfecting is part of the second estate task. When we are done with the second estate, we are done. That doesn't mean we can't continue to learn but refining our character and who we are will be done, it will be defined.

I agree that perfecting of body and spirit is the goal of the second estate and when this is complete we are done. However, I think your post implies that our character is complete at the resurrection. If we live righteously you and I and many others will come forth in the first resurrection. Let's suppose that it is in 100 years. So within that time span do you believe we will have the same character and attributes as Christ?

Edited October 29, 2011 by james12

[james12]

Have you seen the BYU devotional by Brad Wilcox on 7/12/11? The title is "His Grace is Sufficient".

His Grace is sufficient. You will receive the glory that you will be most comfortable receiving.

Panacea,

Thanks for this post. It is an important point I don't want anyone to miss. We are indeed saved by gace. His grace is sufficient to save us. Christ will make up the difference for our faults. If we make and honor sacred covenants then do the best we can Christ will get us into the kingdom. My good works alone will not save me, only His.

But, at the time of the resurrection do we forever more posses the perfect attributes Christ possesses?

[Justice]

Alma 42 is the definitive voice in this matter. :)

Alma is explaining the resurrection to his son, Corianton, and that with it will come what he calls a "restoration."

27 Therefore, O my son, whosoever will come may come and partake of the waters of life freely; and whosoever will not come the same is not compelled to come; but in the last day it shall be restored unto him according to his deeds.

28 If he has desired to do evil, and has not repented in his days, behold, evil shall be done unto him, according to the restoration of God.

There is no spiritual "magic" in the resurrection like there is physical "magic."

If you know the question that is being answered you can see what Alma is teaching:

1 And now, my son, I perceive there is somewhat more which doth worry your mind, which ye cannot understand—which is concerning the justice of God in the punishment of the sinner; for ye do try to suppose that it is injustice that the sinner should be consigned to a state of misery.

It is logical. It is not injustice, it is perfect justice to be returned (or restored) to the same condition. It is mercy to be perfect physically. If God could restore good for evil then all would inherit the Celetial Kingdom. But, that would be unfair, or unjust, to those who exercised faith in Christ and repented of their sins.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Alma 42 is the definitive voice in this matter. :)

Alma is explaining the resurrection to his son, Corianton, and that with it will come what he calls a "restoration."

27 Therefore, O my son, whosoever will come may come and partake of the waters of life freely; and whosoever will not come the same is not compelled to come; but in the last day it shall be restored unto him according to his deeds.

28 If he has desired to do evil, and has not repented in his days, behold, evil shall be done unto him, according to the restoration of God.

There is no spiritual "magic" in the resurrection like there is physical "magic."

If you know the question that is being answered you can see what Alma is teaching:

1 And now, my son, I perceive there is somewhat more which doth worry your mind, which ye cannot understand—which is concerning the justice of God in the punishment of the sinner; for ye do try to suppose that it is injustice that the sinner should be consigned to a state of misery.

It is logical. It is not injustice, it is perfect justice to be returned (or restored) to the same condition. It is mercy to be perfect physically. If God could restore good for evil then all would inherit the Celetial Kingdom. But, that would be unfair, or unjust, to those who exercised faith in Christ and repented of their sins.

As you pointed out in this scripture, though, this is according to one's deeds, not according to one's standing.

The problem with saying that the resurrection is restoration back to the same condition is that one has to state to what condition? I would assume the condition is back to the state before the fall. Not the condition in which we find ourselves here. The condition we have here is a fallen state. So the restoration is pre-fall state. This is a perfect condition, physically and there is only one set of models that we know about that fit that condition which is Adam and Eve.

We are given this fallen state as part of our test, not as part of our judgment. There is absolutely no justice as to why we have the fallen condition we end up with when we are born. Otherwise we would have to believe in baptizing children. If one says that children are innocent when born and not responsible until the age of accountability then by definition, what we are saying is that we are not responsible for the physical condition we are given in this life, just what we do with those things. If I am not responsible for my physical condition, which is what people are assuming is the "character"of a person, then why would that "character" be restored to me with resurrection.

Let me give one example just as a talking point ... if my corrupted body is born with shyness and difficulty speaking in front of large groups (possibly what Moses had) why would I have that same "character" with the resurrection if I am obedient and lived righteously in this life? It would not be justice to stick me with something that I was only given temporarily, it doesn't mean that I had that problem before this life, it is just part of the test I faced here. The problem is that we cannot look at someone and say, 'that is their character, that is not part of their character', because in this existence we cannot say what aspect of our current character is part of our fallen state versus what is it that we had in development before this life.

[FunkyTown]

Seminarysnoozer,

I respect your opinion and want to understand your thoughts so let me ask a few questions (incidentally for other's reading this post I would love to hear your thoughts as well). However, I reserve the right to comment and ask further questions.

1. Will we be perfect in characteristics and attributes when we are resurrected? If so, how will it happen? Note: I do not mean perfect in form or free from death, disease, maladies etc. I take that as a given.

2. If we are not perfect, what do we need to improve and how do we do it?

Please provide quotes and scriptures where possible.

1: We will not be perfect in all aspects morally. We will put on incorruptible flesh, but that doesn't mean incorruptible morality.

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.

(Revelations 22:11-12)

2: I think we have to improve everything. Especially our morality.

"Be you therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

- Matthew 5:48.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I can agree that Eternal Life is ultimately a gift from God received by living righteously.

If I am given a gift (even the fullness of a gift) does that mean that I am now perfect? In other words, can God by giving me what he has make me who he is?

I agree that perfecting of body and spirit is the goal of the second estate and when this is complete we are done. However, I think your post implies that our character is complete at the resurrection. If we live righteously you and I and many others will come forth in the first resurrection. Let's suppose that it is in 100 years. So within that time span do you believe we will have the same character and attributes as Christ?

If we matured as far as we could before this life spending an infinite number of years with God in his presence before passing our first estate and knowing that we all passed our first estate (i.e - our traits were sufficiently matured to recognize the right choice and make the right choice) what more do we have to change about ourselves after this life?

If you are talking about aspects of our character that can only be worked on while someone has an imperfect body and temptations, well, that is done here. How can one work on those aspects of their character when not in that situation? And if they could, then that would have already been worked on before this life.

I think you would agree that we progressed as far as we could before coming here, that we were matured spirits, our character and traits were formed. The only traits or character that may not have had a chance to mature are those that can only be matured in this situation of having a corrupted body with temptations. When the tempter is gone and the corrupted body is gone and the veil is lifted that setting to perfect that aspect of character is also gone. That aspect of our training though is not as critical as one would think as there are millions who don't have to go through that training, those that die before the age of 8 and those that have severe disease that doesn't allow them to truly have free agency, like Down's syndrome.

Just as a talking point, lets say I developed 1000 talents before this life, as a spirit. Coming here, in a fallen state, I am given 5 talents as my test (that may or may not be specifically part of those talents that I learned before coming here) and being behind the veil I cannot remember and use those previous talents that I learned. Being a good steward of my 5 talents, I double them in my time here on mortal Earth. So my reward would be a Celestial resurrection with which would I get 5 talents back, 10 talents back or 1010 talents? My opinion is that the gift of resurrection goes beyond where we were before coming here, so the answer would be greater than 1010 talents, probably way more but certainly not 5 or 10. Why would one think that we would be resurrected back to a fallen state, worse than what we were before coming here? I don't understand that point of view. And if the 1000 talents is my mature state, my mature character, what more would I have to mature about that set of talents? That doesn't mean there is not more to learn, but my character is matured at that point of resurrection.

I tend to believe that when a spirit enters this test, if they qualified for the test, i.e.- they kept their first estate, the result of the test would be the same no matter what set of talents and lifespan they had here. In other words, if they were given 2 talents they would double them to 4, or if they were given 5 they would double them to 10, metaphorically speaking. The result would be the same every time. There is no need to go back and repeat the test. God will get the test result right the first time and place us in the right Kingdom the first time without having to find the average or give us more time back in this testing situation.

People that make it into the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom will have to have the same character as Christ, yes. They will be one with Him. That doesn't necessarily mean they are on the same rung of the ladder as him, but they would have the same character. We can still develop more without changing character.

Edited October 31, 2011 by Seminarysnoozer

[james12]

If we matured as far as we could before this life spending an infinite number of years with God in his presence before passing our first estate and knowing that we all passed our first estate (i.e - our traits were sufficiently matured to recognize the right choice and make the right choice) what more do we have to change about ourselves after this life?

Interesting that you discuss our first estate as an infinite number of years and talk about traits being matured instead of changed in the blink of an eye. How did we mature these traits during our first estate? I submit that the process of change required then is similar to process required now.

If you are talking about aspects of our character that can only be worked on while someone has an imperfect body and temptations, well, that is done here. How can one work on those aspects of their character when not in that situation? And if they could, then that would have already been worked on before this life.

I think you would agree that we progressed as far as we could before coming here, that we were matured spirits, our character and traits were formed. The only traits or character that may not have had a chance to mature are those that can only be matured in this situation of having a corrupted body with temptations. When the tempter is gone and the corrupted body is gone and the veil is lifted that setting to perfect that aspect of character is also gone. That aspect of our training though is not as critical as one would think as there are millions who don't have to go through that training, those that die before the age of 8 and those that have severe disease that doesn't allow them to truly have free agency, like Down's syndrome.

How do we perfect our character without temptation? Good question. I must submit that at times I ponder this question.

Just as a talking point, lets say I developed 1000 talents before this life, as a spirit. Coming here, in a fallen state, I am given 5 talents as my test (that may or may not be specifically part of those talents that I learned before coming here) and being behind the veil I cannot remember and use those previous talents that I learned. Being a good steward of my 5 talents, I double them in my time here on mortal Earth. So my reward would be a Celestial resurrection with which would I get 5 talents back, 10 talents back or 1010 talents? My opinion is that the gift of resurrection goes beyond where we were before coming here, so the answer would be greater than 1010 talents, probably way more but certainly not 5 or 10. Why would one think that we would be resurrected back to a fallen state, worse than what we were before coming here? I don't understand that point of view. And if the 1000 talents is my mature state, my mature character, what more would I have to mature about that set of talents? That doesn't mean there is not more to learn, but my character is matured at that point of resurrection.

I think your analogy fails to consider our physical body in the equation. We are not resurrected back to a fallen state nor or we in a worse condition than when we ended our first estate (sons of perdition excepted). Remember, a physical body is a step up in progression not a step down. How is that so? Note well what Elder Bednar has said,

Our physical bodies make possible a breadth, a depth, and an intensity of experience that simply could not be obtained in our premortal estate. President Boyd K. Packer, President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, has taught, “Our spirit and our body are combined in such a way that our body becomes an instrument of our mind and the foundation of our character.” Thus, our relationships with other people, our capacity to recognize and act in accordance with truth, and our ability to obey the principles and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ are amplified through our physical bodies. (David A. Bednar, Things As They Really Are, CES Fireside May 3, 2009)

Our physical bodies increase the depth of our experience in a number of ways. We fail to recognize this here on earth as we have no frame of reference. Another thing is also certain. Our bodies affect our spirits. If we allow the evil influence of Satan to control our bodies we also damage our spirit. So I don't believe it is a simple matter of adding a number of talents to what we already have but instead we may add or loose talents. The real test of this life is to gain control of our body such that all the positive character and attributes we possessed as spirits are magnified through our body.

I tend to believe that when a spirit enters this test, if they qualified for the test, i.e.- they kept their first estate, the result of the test would be the same no matter what set of talents and lifespan they had here. In other words, if they were given 2 talents they would double them to 4, or if they were given 5 they would double them to 10, metaphorically speaking. The result would be the same every time. There is no need to go back and repeat the test. God will get the test result right the first time and place us in the right Kingdom the first time without having to find the average or give us more time back in this testing situation.

He may place us in the right kingdom but even by your admission there is still more learning and growing. I wonder what type of development you think we are to do?

People that make it into the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom will have to have the same character as Christ, yes. They will be one with Him. That doesn't necessarily mean they are on the same rung of the ladder as him, but they would have the same character. We can still develop more without changing character.

What is it exactly that separates us from Christ?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Interesting that you discuss our first estate as an infinite number of years and talk about traits being matured instead of changed in the blink of an eye. How did we mature these traits during our first estate? I submit that the process of change required then is similar to process required now.

How do we perfect our character without temptation? Good question. I must submit that at times I ponder this question.

I think your analogy fails to consider our physical body in the equation. We are not resurrected back to a fallen state nor or we in a worse condition than when we ended our first estate (sons of perdition excepted). Remember, a physical body is a step up in progression not a step down. How is that so? Note well what Elder Bednar has said, Our physical bodies increase the depth of our experience in a number of ways. We fail to recognize this here on earth as we have no frame of reference. Another thing is also certain. Our bodies affect our spirits. If we allow the evil influence of Satan to control our bodies we also damage our spirit. So I don't believe it is a simple matter of adding a number of talents to what we already have but instead we may add or loose talents. The real test of this life is to gain control of our body such that all the positive character and attributes we possessed as spirits are magnified through our body.

He may place us in the right kingdom but even by your admission there is still more learning and growing. I wonder what type of development you think we are to do?

What is it exactly that separates us from Christ?

It is not me discussing infinite number of years, that is from Mckonkie. If you are okay with that description, then why would we have to change any traits that were developed over the many many (however many it was) years?

Please, the best you possibly can, tell me one thing that you have learned in this life that has changed your character from what it was before this life to now. Just give me one example that shows that you have had a change of character from before. I will suppose that your answer will be an example of an experience that you have had in this life that you didn't have before but here is the question, did the experience change your character or just reveal your underlying character? You couldn't tell me that. Keep in mind, I am not asking you to give an example of how you have changed during the course of this life but how you have changed character from before to after, there is a difference. Of course, everyone how starts in a fallen state will change during the fallen state. Even Christ grew in stature amongst man and God while in this state. But did his character change from what He was before? No. So, it is possible to grow in stature and not change character, not change one's level of righteousness. We were all pure before coming here and we will all be pure again after the resurrection. (except sons of perdition)

This life is like jumping off a diving board, we go down, then upward and onward. Right now, we are down. I do not want to go back to the down stage again, I want to move on from the down. There is no need to go back to the down stage again after this life. It provides no further benefit.

Let me ask you, if you were able to go back to the age of 8, having lived your life this far and all the change in character you think you have experienced to this point. Lets say we were some how able to put you back to the age of 8 with the same exact situation, parents, time frame etc, and your memory of living this life was erased (the veil), you cannot recall any of these experiences, would you make the same choices in life that you did or would you somehow now be a different person and make different choices? How?

I would propose that you would make the same choices in life because you are the same spirit. The value of this life's experiences is in remembering them.

Let me ask you another question. If someone has paranoid schizophrenia and with that has difficulty managing outbursts of anger and rage, as they live their life, has their spirit now taken on the traits of that corrupted body? Their spirit now has anger problems and paranoia? Why or why not? You may say, well, that person had a disease. But then my response would be, what one of our bodies does not have a "disease" what one of our bodies right now is perfect? We all have a given set of traits that does not represent our spiritual traits, there may be a few but it certainly isn't a one to one direct representation of our spiritual self anymore than the spirit who has Down's syndrome has a body that represents their spirit. The "disease" is the test and the opportunity to grow, ask Paul about his "thorn in the flesh". What one of us do not have a "thorn in the flesh". Luckily, the thorn is removed upon resurrection, it was not intended to be a permanent feature of our being and yet it is a valuable tool for teaching when we are in a corrupted, behind the veil state.

We do not believe that our current set of traits is our spiritual self, we have to remember who we are, remember that we are spiritual beings with traits that supersede the smartest, most intelligent man that has ever lived in this world. Why anyone would want to go back to the fallen set of triats after this life, I cannot comprehend.

Edited November 1, 2011 by Seminarysnoozer

[james12]

It is not me discussing infinite number of years, that is from Mckonkie. If you are okay with that description, then why would we have to change any traits that were developed over the many many (however many it was) years?

I think maybe you missed my point. You agree our character matured in the spirit world. You even use the phrase "to mature". So I'll re-ask the question, what were we doing for this near infinite amount of time? With that answer in mind I would ask, what is different about the test in our second estate compared to our first?

Now to your question, I don't think we need to change the character of our spirit (as you said, it was developed during our first estate). Instead, what we need to do is allow our spirit to control our body. In this way we will incorporate the spiritual attributes of our character into our physical bodies. We are dual beings. The combination of our spirit and our body now constitute our character. Read again Elder Packer, “Our spirit and our body are combined in such a way that our body becomes an instrument of our mind and the foundation of our character.”

Please, the best you possibly can, tell me one thing that you have learned in this life that has changed your character from what it was before this life to now. Just give me one example that shows that you have had a change of character from before. I will suppose that your answer will be an example of an experience that you have had in this life that you didn't have before but here is the question, did the experience change your character or just reveal your underlying character? You couldn't tell me that. Keep in mind, I am not asking you to give an example of how you have changed during the course of this life but how you have changed character from before to after, there is a difference. Of course, everyone how starts in a fallen state will change during the fallen state. Even Christ grew in stature amongst man and God while in this state. But did his character change from what He was before? No. So, it is possible to grow in stature and not change character, not change one's level of righteousness. We were all pure before coming here and we will all be pure again after the resurrection. (except sons of perdition)

Again it is about alowing our spirit to control our body. Did Christ spirit control his body perfectly? Yes. Hence in this way, as in others, he is truely one, "...thus the flesh becoming subject to the spirit,...,being one God" (Mosiah 15:5).

This life is like jumping off a diving board, we go down, then upward and onward. Right now, we are down. I do not want to go back to the down stage again, I want to move on from the down. There is no need to go back to the down stage again after this life. It provides no further benefit.

Let me ask you, if you were able to go back to the age of 8, having lived your life this far and all the change in character you think you have experienced to this point. Lets say we were some how able to put you back to the age of 8 with the same exact situation, parents, time frame etc, and your memory of living this life was erased (the veil), you cannot recall any of these experiences, would you make the same choices in life that you did or would you somehow now be a different person and make different choices? How?

I would propose that you would make the same choices in life because you are the same spirit. The value of this life's experiences is in remembering them.

I propose that it is the spirit and the body that make the difference. The value of this life is not simply in remembering what happened but making choices that form habits that then determine our destiny. The habits formed in the body will effect who we are in the eternal worlds.

By the way, good example. I think it hits on a fundamental difference of views between what you and I think.

Let me ask you another question. If someone has paranoid schizophrenia and with that has difficulty managing outbursts of anger and rage, as they live their life, has their spirit now taken on the traits of that corrupted body? Their spirit now has anger problems and paranoia? Why or why not? You may say, well, that person had a disease. But then my response would be, what one of our bodies does not have a "disease" what one of our bodies right now is perfect? We all have a given set of traits that does not represent our spiritual traits, there may be a few but it certainly isn't a one to one direct representation of our spiritual self anymore than the spirit who has Down's syndrome has a body that represents their spirit. The "disease" is the test and the opportunity to grow, ask Paul about his "thorn in the flesh". What one of us do not have a "thorn in the flesh". Luckily, the thorn is removed upon resurrection, it was not intended to be a permanent feature of our being and yet it is a valuable tool for teaching when we are in a corrupted, behind the veil state.

We are in a fallen state. Our spirit takes on traits of our body only as we allow the adversary to influence us. Each person is faced with different challenges due to their fallen nature but it is what we do with these challenges that defines who we are in the eternities, not the challenges themselves.

We do not believe that our current set of traits is our spiritual self, we have to remember who we are, remember that we are spiritual beings with traits that supersede the smartest, most intelligent man that has ever lived in this world. Why anyone would want to go back to the fallen set of triats after this life, I cannot comprehend.

Indeed it is vital we remember who we are. Who wants to go back to a fallen set of traits?

Edited November 1, 2011 by james12

[Seminarysnoozer]

I think maybe you missed my point. You agree our character matured in the spirit world. You even use the phrase "to mature". So I'll re-ask the question, what were we doing for this near infinite amount of time? With that answer in mind I would ask, what is different about the test in our second estate compared to our first?

Now to your question, I don't think we need to change the character of our spirit (as you said, it was developed during our first estate). Instead, what we need to do is allow our spirit to control our body. In this way we will incorporate the spiritual attributes of our character into our physical bodies. We are dual beings. The combination of our spirit and our body now constitute our character. Read again Elder Packer, “Our spirit and our body are combined in such a way that our body becomes an instrument of our mind and the foundation of our character.”

Again it is about alowing our spirit to control our body. Did Christ spirit control his body perfectly? Yes. Hence in this way, as in others, he is truely one, "...thus the flesh becoming subject to the spirit,...,being one God" (Mosiah 15:5).

I propose that it is the spirit and the body that make the difference. The value of this life is not simply in remembering what happened but making choices that form habits that then determine our destiny. The habits formed in the body will effect who we are in the eternal worlds.

By the way, good example. I think it hits on a fundamental difference of views between what you and I think.

We are in a fallen state. Our spirit takes on traits of our body only as we allow the adversary to influence us. Each person is faced with different challenges due to their fallen nature but it is what we do with these challenges that defines who we are in the eternities, not the challenges themselves.

Indeed it is vital we remember who we are. Who wants to go back to a fallen set of traits?

Thanks for the conversation because this is interesting to me and I appreciate your patience in this exchange.

I think for the most part we agree, most of what you are saying here I agree with but I think I am seeing now where we differ. ...

The "allow our spirit to control our body" is true for this life. I agree that that is the test for this life but for this life only. Only here are we dual beings, both body and spirit. With the resurrection our body will be combined with our spirit in such a way that it no longer would be considered a dual being. There is no longer the struggle between spirit versus carnal. That is just part of this test here. That is not something that needs to be overcome after resurrection. I am not sure why you think that. That struggle is unique to this existence.

You said "I propose that it is the spirit and the body that make the difference. The value of this life is not simply in remembering what happened but making choices that form habits that then determine our destiny. The habits formed in the body will effect who we are in the eternal worlds."

I disagree with this premise. I think the habits formed in the spirit while in this state of being a dual being will effect who we are in the eternal worlds but are not necessary for being Celestial. The baby who dies at the age of 1 day old has not formed any habits that will stick with them in the eternities while in the mortal body.

This life is a test mostly. Can a person learn while taking a test? sure. But one hopes they have done all the learning they could before taking the test. The test is a test of spiritual character, of our underlying natures, are we faithfully good or not while in a setting that allows us to choose between good and evil. So, we have to be placed in that setting, an artificial, probationary, temporary setting that requires a veil of forgetfulness to not allow us to choose things based on their logical merit but based in individual spiritual merit.

Then, if we pass the test, we can go back to choosing things both based in faith and logic having full knowledge. Whether a person chooses to listen to the spirit or not while here and to what degree is not something that will change if they practice it more or had another chance to work on it. A person will either listen to the spirit to a specific degree given a specific set of circumstances or they will not. I think this is why Heavenly Father can quickly kick out a third of the host of heaven because they do not have what it takes to even prove their level of glory or listen to the spirit if they were put in this setting at all. The rest of us who have made it this far can work out our salvation, the salvation of the Celestial type, Terrestrial or the Telestial type based on the relative listening to the spirit we would do every time we are put in this situation. Then we will be given the corresponding body, permanently, one that does not need to be overcome or fight against the will of our spirit but perfectly match the will of our spirit. There are still things to learn but it wont be a question of what wins out, the spirit or the body as it is here, they will be one in their direction at the point of resurrection, there will be nothing to overcome at that point.

Overall, I think we believe the same things except the idea that the overcoming of the body is some kind of skill that would be needed in the next life. The overcoming of the carnal mortal body is a test for this existence and if passed well, the person would rest from that test, there will not be that struggle in the next life, that is what "come unto my rest" means.

There will be no need to overcome the body that is not corrupted, i.e. - when the neuroanatomy of the brain matches the will of the spirit. The fallen neuroanatomy fights against the spirit. The fallen neuroanatomy wants to sleep like the apostles did in the Garden of Gethsemane. The fallen neuroanatomy wants to eat on fast Sunday. The fallen neuroanatomy is quick to judge and to be prideful and to be angry. The fallen neuroanatomy rewards certain behaviors that elicit euphoric sensation that may be against the will of the spirit. None of that will need to be contended with given a perfected, non-carnal, non-corrupted body. So there will be no need to continue to learn how to fight a fight that we don't ever have to fight again.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I think maybe you missed my point. You agree our character matured in the spirit world. You even use the phrase "to mature". So I'll re-ask the question, what were we doing for this near infinite amount of time? With that answer in mind I would ask, what is different about the test in our second estate compared to our first?

Let me answer this question specifically but look at my previous post for the real discussion.

The near infinite time prior to this life is in becoming mature spirits, developing our personal character. The test in the second estate is different than the first in that it is a test to see if we will do the things we said we will do. Will we just talk the talk or do we walk the walk as well? That is the test.

All of us have already agreed to what is true and right. We all were pure and innocent. We were all valiant but to different degrees. None of us were rebellious though. So, the test isn't to see who is rebellious by word alone, it is a test to see when given carnal options, is the power of our word stronger than carnal temptations. Would we walk the walk we said we would. Whatever the result of that test, we don't have to take the test again. ... because we would either walk the walk to whatever degree we would or we wouldn't every time we take the test. The second estate test does not need to be repeated or retried after the final judgement. At this point, we couldn't learn how to have a different result in this test if given another try, because it is a test of character, the character that we built enough to pass the first estate, our matured spiritual self.

[james12]

Seminarysnoozer,

As you have said, we disagree on a few points. Not, I think, in the purpose for this life but rather in the path to achieve the ultimate outcome. The discussion has been interesting. I'm sure these or similar thoughts will never be too far from my mind as I am often faced with my own mortality.

[Martain]

Speaking generally, what happens if I knowingly don't "endure to the end"? And, why? Can't I just repent in the spirit world? If I can't do that, then for what reason can I not?

Thank you.

Though it will take a little while to transcribe, I have an answer for you.

The book is "The Miracle of Forgiveness" by Spencer W. Kimball and the text is taken from pages 313-315. This book was authored and published while he was the President of the Church.

Repent in Mortality

I have referred previously to the significance of this life in the application of repentance but will emphasize it here in relation to the eventual judgment. One cannot delay repentance until the next life, the spirit world, and there prepare properly for the day of judgment while the ordinance work is done for him vicariously on earth. It must be remembered that vicarious work for the dead is for those who could not do the work for themselves. Men and women who live in mortality and who have heard the gospel here have had their day, their seventy years to put their lives in harmony, to perform the ordinances, to repent and to perfect their lives.

The people of Noah's day heard the message of the gospel from the prophets of God. They lived worldly lives. They ate, drank and were merry. They also married and gave in marriage, which means broken homes, divorces and worldly living. They ignored the many testimonies of preachers of righteousness. Then they died by drowning. The harvest had come for them. The end of their "day" had come and the "night" was to be dark and long. They waited for what must have seemed to them an interminable period; and finally the Savior came and through his missionary program taught them again the gospel, giving them ta chance to repent. But did they receive the blessings of earthly faithfulness? Read again this from the Doctrine and Covenants relative to the inhabitants of the terrestrial world:

And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and

preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the

flesh; Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.

(D&C 76:73-74)

Were they ever to receive the celestial kingdom? They had had their opportunity; they had wasted the days of their probation; they had ignored the testimonies of the servants of God; they had followed the world and lived a worldly life. Perhaps many of them had taken the attitude, "I am not the religious kind." "I Do not like to go to meetings." "I'm too busy; I can't be bothered." "I have other things of more interest."

Again, undoubtedly many of those people in that spirit prison, like their brothers of this generation, must have been good people in the sense of not being criminal. They must have been the "honorable men of the earth" Perhaps many of them were honest, good neighbors, good citizens, and committed no heinous crime, but were not valiant. Are not the scriptures very clear that they have lost their opportunity for exaltation? It is not clear that it was everlastingly too late for them when they had drowned, that they had wasted their days?

The terrestrial kingdom will not be enjoyed by those very wicked, for they shall obtain only the telestial. Neither will the terrestrial be given to the valiant, the faithful, the perfected, for they will go into the celestial kingdom prepared for those who live the celestial laws. But into th terrestrial will go those who do not measure up to the celestial. Speaking of one category of terrestrial people, the Lord says: "These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus, wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God." D&C 76:79.) The "unvaliant" Latter-day Saint will find himself there.

It is true that repentance is always worth while. But spirit world repentance cannot recompense for that which could and should have been done on earth.

Although those who died in Noah's flood are unable to obtain a Celestial glory. There are still the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms for them to seek after and qualify for.

There is a point in every soul's life where they have had sufficient opportunities to learn and follow the Gospel of Christ and should they die in their sins, forfeit a Celestial Glory. It is God who ultimately determines who had the fullness of opportunities and wasted them and who did not.

Those who have not had any opportunity will of course be given full opportunity in the Spirit World and if they endure to the end they will also receive Celestial Glory.

So as to answer your question, why can't we wait to repent in the spirit world? Because in doing so we risk forfeiting exaltation.

This is my understanding.

[spamlds]

Here is a bit of informed personal speculation on Alma 34:34:

"...for that same spirit which doth bpossess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world."

If you will go to this link and read the Brigham Young priesthood manual we used several years ago, Chapter 38 in that manual has a great lesson on the spirit world. Here's the link to it.

LDS.org - Support Materials Chapter - The Spirit World

Brigham Young said:

"Suppose, then, that a man is evil in his heart—wholly given up to wickedness, and in that condition dies, his spirit will enter into the spirit world intent upon evil. On the other hand, if we are striving with all the powers and faculties God has given us to improve upon our talents, to prepare ourselves to dwell in eternal life, and the grave receives our bodies while we are thus engaged, with what disposition will our spirits enter their next state? They will be still striving to do the things of God, only in a much greater degree—learning, increasing, growing in grace and in the knowledge of the truth (DBY, 379).

"If we are faithful to our religion, when we go into the spirit world, the fallen spirits—Lucifer and the third part of the heavenly hosts that came with him, and the spirits of wicked men who have dwelt upon this earth, the whole of them combined will have no influence over our spirits. Is not that an advantage? Yes. All the rest of the children of men are more or less subject to them, and they are subject to them as they were while here in the flesh (DBY, 379).

"Here [the faithful] shall be perplexed and hunted by him; but when we go into the spirit world there we are masters over the power of satan, and he cannot afflict us any more, and this is enough for me to know" (DNW, 1 Oct. 1856, 3).

There's your answer as to why it's difficult to repent in the spirit world. When the righteous leave this life, Satan has no further power over them. They have overcome him. When the wicked leave this life and go into the spirit world, Satan has the same power to tempt them and influence them. They are not free from his power.

A spirit who can master the desires and weaknesses of the body and attain to righteousness has power over Satan when he no longer has the body. Having a body to learn to master is a blessing. When that body is no more, it's actually harder to repent.

Brigham Young also said:

"And when there we may behold the earth as at the dawn of creation, or we may visit any city we please that exists upon its surface. If we wish to understand how they are living here on these western islands, or in China, we are there; in fact, we are like the light of the morning. … God has revealed some little things, with regard to his movements and power, and the operation and motion of the lightning furnish a fine illustration of the ability of the Almighty" (DBY, 380).

Imagine a wicked person with those kinds of abilities to move and act, but whose desires are wicked. That ability will actually hinder his ability repent in the spirit world. For example, imagine a spirit who was addicted to pornography. Now, in the spirit world, he can indulge that evil desire 24/7 nonstop as he can see any place and any time on the earth. Do you think the wicked will wish to repent in that state? It would be a challenge for them, because they have lost the body through which practicing mastery of desires and impulses is most effective.

It's a really good lesson in that manual. Check it out.

Edited November 16, 2011 by spamlds
added italics

[annewandering]

As far as the people lost in the flood, as I recall the flood came because the children born had no fair chance to learn the truth or to practice it. Keeping this in mind then it is obvious that the people at that time have been given a chance to learn same as anyone else after death.

They will certainly be given the chance to be in the Celestial Kingdom same as anyone else has that chance.