temple marriage over or keep trying?


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I just had the 11 year anniversary of my temple marriage. I am now in the exploritory stages of divorce after having done all I can do. When does a person say enough is enough and move on?

We have been to 3 different LDSFS counselors for marriage help. Have talked to every bishop we have had. We have moved about 10 times.

Have 3 kids, 2, 7, and 9 yrs old.

I am currently seeing a counselor on my own.

I am reading books, taking meds for anxiety, depression, going to the gym regularly, and doing all I can to make me the best person I can.

She will not go to the gym, take meds, see a counselor or the Bishop for that matter.

She reads christian romance novels all day long!!

She is very controlling, tells me what I can eat in the house, what I can spend money on.

She is a Jerk to me and my kids. Yells, very controlling. I have to do all the dishes even though I didn't eat off any of them. I expect to do my share, but doesn't 2 jobs count for anything? She even tells me what kind of car I can have!

I work 2 jobs so she can have the nice house, new car, the stuff she wants. I am never home and quit my calling as executive secretary when she said she was going to leave if I didn't. She just started working part time as a teacher substitute.

She gives NO positive reinforcement, nags, negative comments all the time, cuts me down. No affection either. sex, hold hands, she won't let me touch her, see her naked etc. She won't wear lingerie for me but dresses in very tight clothing and too short skirts, etc when we go out. She has a great figure and I am very attracted to her but I do not feel any attachment to her because she treats me so bad. She wants another kid, I told no till she treats me and the kids better.

I am not overweight but could loose 10lbs or so. She told me if I had a 6 pack she might have sex with me. I try to take care of myself with personal hygien, etc.

I think there are some serious codependency issues here. She will not do anything to help.

I have slept on the couch for over a year because it kills me that I can't touch her (nonsexual) in bed.

I need a companion that returns my affection and treats me and my kids with respect and dignity. My current bishop said I have put up with more than most men he knows. He would not reccomend a divorce obviously.

I plan on giving her more chances to change, see a counselor, get on meds, whatever it takes over the next few months. I expect her to turn me down like she has in the past. All my family and hers have told me to leave her! Even her mom said she doesn't why I stay with her. I really worry about the kids, but will it do more harm to stay than to go?

I don't want to break a temple marriage, but is there anything left of it anyway?

When do you call it quits and move on? I don't want to live in an eternal marriage that is torture.

Any suggestions would be helpful.

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In all sincerity, why do you love her?

Is it possible that you love the memory of your past with her more than your present?

What is it about her that is keeping you in this marriage?

Is it just the principle of staying in the marriage and being a man of your word?

We obviously don't have all sides to the story. But I would emphasize that the marriage covenant is a 3-way covenant... and it appears that your spouse wants out of her part of the covenant. You might need to go ahead and give her exactly what her behavior has earned her.

Just my thoughts.

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Guest mormonmusic

I agree -- no child until she comes around.

And you're right -- your Bishop won't recommend divorce. That will have to come from you.

You might try Marriage Builders ® - Successful Marriage Advice. The author of the site describes needs people have in marriages and how to create love in them. You are definitely not having yours met, but she may have the same problem. He does phone appointment last I checked. I find his to be the most effective marriage counseling/framework for generating a successful marriage that I'vea read about -- and I've read widely. If she won't go, you can try ultimatums. I've used them before and gotten results for a while.

Someone once told me that when it's time to leave a marriage, you won't be upset about it. I would use that as your mantra -- would you be upset to leave the marriage? My wife didn't meet my needs either, but she we had stretches where she met them just enough to give me hope so I would march forward. I'm still married after 20 years now, with stretches of happiness dotted with period of misery. So, I choose to stay.

How do you feel about having kids that need raising at such young ages with your marriage the way it is? How would you feel paying child support or not having custody of the kids? How would you feel not having your wife in your life notwithstanding the challenges she presents? If this brings you more misery than you can stand, then you should stay and try to work it out.

Edited by mormonmusic
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You and your wife both need a serious REALITY check. Take a look into the future with me for a minute. Think of the following before you do anything stupid: split custody, child support, alimony, co-parenting, kids asking why you aren't coming over to mommy's house for Thanksgiving, dealing with your EX for the rest of your life b/c you will always be the parents to the kids, etc etc..... This is the reality of a DIVORCE.

You should not consider filing for a divorce unless you understand that your entire life and your kids lives will be changed forever.

However, could it be a wake up call for you and your wife....Maybe. Sometimes we all need a wake up call because our marriage can get in such a rut. And for some reason we just dig it deeper and deeper. Do you fix your car when it is not broken ??? No, you only fix it when it doesn't work. Sometimes things have to break completely before we recognize it has be fixed.

I would recommend staying in it for your kids and making the best of it. You two chose each other. You had kids and made a life together. Make it work. I sense a lot of "victim" talk in your original post. What are you doing to make your wife's life easier ? You should be focused on her and not you. Or else, based on my marital experience (which is over by the way) you will never progress. (btw - I gave my wife the nice house, the car, the "stuff" and it got me no where -- STUFF is Useless....love and meeting each others needs will create a life) I would simply not give up yet, b/c the alternative is hell on earth.

Edited by ManChild
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You can only change yourself, do everything in your power to show your wife love, go through the marriagebuilders site especially keep an eye on the love busters and the emotional needs. Do everything in your power to make sure you do your part.

It will be hard very very hard you will often ask yourself why do all this for nothing in return? Unless someone breaks the cycle it will continue on and on.

I thought I was doing all the right things and felt the victim also but until you look at what your really doing and what it is your wife really needs from you you will be blind to the reality that she is just as unhappy as you are.

You say you could lose a few pounds maybe one of your wifes top needs is physical attraction? By denying her that it is the same as her denying you affectionate touch if it is one of her top needs.

It may also be that financial security is low on the list of her needs providing it is nice for her but not what she needs.

If after a few months she still doesnt come around then you may need to take more drastic measures pray for guidance in the end the choice can only be made by you and Heavenly Father. At least you will know that you gave it everything you had a marriage is between 2 partners 1 person alone can not make it work.

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gunnut78,

I am currently in the process of getting divorced from my Wife of almost 15 years. It has been a 2-3 year process for me to get to the point where I now believe this is the right step for me to take to ensure the healthiest environment for both me and my 4 children. It took that long because I wanted to make sure I tried and did everything I could on my part to save the marriage. Unfortunately, in my case without starting counseling at the beginning of this 2-3 year period probably doomed me to failure due my clumsiness in handling situations. So that is my #1 recommendation, get back into marriage counseling as soon as possible. Any topic that has the possibility of becoming an argument probably needs to be saved and reserved for counseling until you both learn the tools to communicate with one another.

From your post, has your wife been diagnosed with a Personality Disorder, specifically Borderline. I am no expert so take what I say with a grain of salt. My counselor feels strongly that based on what I have told him that my wife has Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD). Your description of your life and of your wife's behavior sounds very similar to my own situation. Unfortunately, one of the primary symptoms of BPD is a lack of responsibility on the part of the sufferer. Worse yet, they project this lack of responsibility on to you so you begin to feel like you are going nuts! Anyway, if you want to read more about BPD there is a good community / support group that has been helpful to me at Borderline Personality Disorder - Support group for families and relationship partners.

My Responses to some of the comments so far:

We obviously don't have all sides to the story. But I would emphasize that the marriage covenant is a 3-way covenant... and it appears that your spouse wants out of her part of the covenant. You might need to go ahead and give her exactly what her behavior has earned her.

Agree wholeheartedly! There came a point about six months ago where I realized that what I was trying to change was my wife's choices. The problem here is that we learn through the gospel that one of Heavenly Father's gifts to us is Free Agency. With all the faith in the world you cannot pray away someone's free agency! Believe I have tried!

Someone once told me that when it's time to leave a marriage, you won't be upset about it.

The version of this that I heard from several people that had experienced divorce was that if the time came to end the marriage I would simply know it. I like this version better. I went through a period of severe depression over the course of 6-8 months earlier this year. But when my wife filed for divorce in early September, I strangely felt and still do feel very at peace with it and I am proceeding forward as best as I can!

You and your wife both need a serious REALITY check. Take a look into the future with me for a minute. Think of the following before you do anything stupid....

I agree and disagree with this comment. Over the course of 2-3 years I tried to give my wife a "reality check" when she would tell me that she hated me and never wanted to talk to or see me again. I would calmly explain that since we have children that whether we are married or not that we would have to continue to talk and see each other for the rest of our lives (Graduations, Marriages, Births of Grandchildren, etc..). In the end, my counselor finally told me that "it is impossible to have a rational discussion with an irrational person." If your wife has a mental illness such as BPD all the reality in the world will do nothing! But I do agree with the fact that you do need to think through this whole process and both the short and long term consequences of any actions you may have to take.

I would recommend staying in it for your kids and making the best of it. You two chose each other. You had kids and made a life together. Make it work.

I completely disagree with this comment. If I have misunderstood something please correct me!

As part of thinking through the consequences of staying, put yourself in the shoes of your children as best as you can. What are they learning about marriage from the current environment. What are they learning about emotional health and stability. Children learn a lot of things by modeling the behaviors the see and hear from their parents. In short, for me I decided that the current situation with my wife was only teaching my children dysfunction. Children deserve a stable loving environment to make mistakes in to learn and grow! Being yelled at by my wife was not providing this for them!

What are you doing to make your wife's life easier ? You should be focused on her and not you. Or else, based on my marital experience (which is over by the way) you will never progress.

I would add to this that even if you are doing everything you can to help you may still eventually come back to this same question. But, by following through and doing everything you can to help her you will be able to stand up and say that you truly tried everything with a clear conscience. It is this clear conscience that will allow you to progress in the future. By the way, there is a difference between helping her and enabling her bad behavior.

I agree with ManChild that I "hear" some "victim" mentality in your post. I did not know this until a few months ago, but that victim mentality is a symptom of being codependent. If a person has a mental illness then I have learned it is common for their significant other / primary caregiver to be codependent. After doing some research I found that I definitely have some codependency issues that I need to work on in order to progress out of this relationship toward healthy future for myself and my kids.

As a note, I just read Matthew 11:28-30 on Sunday morning before church and it describes my situation perfectly. I cannot tell you how much prayer and scripture reading has helped me to cast my burdens upon the Lord. You will not know it until later as I have just realized recently that the Lord is carrying you through this difficult period of your life! Pray for knowledge and guidance and the Lord will provide it! Know that you are not alone in this! In addition to the Lord, there are others who are going through the same process as you!

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I was just wondering about your family scripture study, etc.? I was just thinking that divorcing her might mean you can move on and find someone else, and so can she...but it does not mean that she will treat the kids any better, or that their home life can be better. The only way to get that is through the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Unless there is some way that you can get full custody of the kids, I don't know if it would be an improvement for them or not.

I think it would be a good idea for you to go to the temple and pray. Ask HF if he would be pleased if you got divorced...and I am not writing that in an attempt to make you feel guilty. HF really does have a plan for you, and only He knows if divorce should be part of that plan.

btw I have been divorced, and know with absolute certainty that not only was it necessary for myself and my kids, but that HF wanted me to do it. I was not sad to get the divorce, I was overwhelmingly relieved.

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Jayanna,

I am not sure if your response was to me or to the Original Poster. I thought I would respond with my answers in the hope that maybe my answers would be helpful to him.

I was just wondering about your family scripture study, etc.? I was just thinking that divorcing her might mean you can move on and find someone else, and so can she...but it does not mean that she will treat the kids any better, or that their home life can be better. The only way to get that is through the gospel of Jesus Christ.

In my case, my wife has completely "painted the church black." So my children are not currently participating in any church activities except for when I do get them to go to church with me. Since my wife has not moved out yet, it is difficult to do anything like Scripture Study since she tends to be disruptive to such things. Unless her treatment of the kids reaches the level of abuse, how she treats the children is currently and will always be out of my control. I am focused on making my time with the children as positive and healthy as possible.

On a good note, since the divorce proceedings started in September things have settled down and she is treating the kids better. High stress has always been a trigger for my wife to start yelling. Now that stress is at a relatively lower level she is nicer to them than she used to be. I have communicated to both my wife and children that once we begin a formal parenting plan where I have the kids every other weekend it is my expectation that the children go to church. In short, I can only control myself and my actions and I am focused on doing so!

Unless there is some way that you can get full custody of the kids, I don't know if it would be an improvement for them or not.

In my situation, full custody of the kids is not really an option at this point for me since her mental illness is at a high functioning state. This may change in the future and is something I am prepared to take action on if needed. The counsel I have received from my lawyer is that it would be very difficult to convince a judge that a person I trusted as a Stay at home Mom for 13 years is now all of a sudden unfit for even partial custody.

I think it would be a good idea for you to go to the temple and pray. Ask HF if he would be pleased if you got divorced...and I am not writing that in an attempt to make you feel guilty. HF really does have a plan for you, and only He knows if divorce should be part of that plan.

In my case, I have not been to the temple since I am not temple worthy due to tithing. As my marriage fell apart so did our finances! I have started paying tithing and look forward to the day when I can go back to the temple in the next couple of months. With that said, I have done a lot of praying for guidance during the last year and I am at peace with it. As someone at Church told me on Sunday, that a month ago he noticed something different about me. That coincides with the lifting of the fog of depression as I came to terms with this whole thing. For something that I thought would be the lowest point in my life has turned out to be one of the highest points of my life in a spiritual manner. Heavenly Father has truly blessed me with peace and I also know that this is for the best in my situation as well! I do not know what his plan for me is, I wish he would share it with me, but if he did then there would be no purpose for faith.

btw I have been divorced, and know with absolute certainty that not only was it necessary for myself and my kids, but that HF wanted me to do it. I was not sad to get the divorce, I was overwhelmingly relieved.

I am at the same place as you currently. I am no longer sad! Thank you for sharing this! A few weeks back I asked my counselor if there was something wrong with me because I thought I should still be feeling down and out not feeling as if everything was ok. Through prayer the Lord has lifted me up and through him I have hope in the future. I have told my wife, that I have no anger toward her and that my hope for her is that at some point she finds peace, happiness, and healing from the mental and emotional wounds that were inflicted upon her during her childhood. Unfortunately, I believe that healing can only come from the Savior and she is currently turning away from him.

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Thanks for the responses. I am at that point of peace right now with the thought of a divorce. I am trying to get all of the information about divorce before I go through with it. that is why I am posting here. So thank you all for your responses. They have given me alot to think about.

Yes I have recognized the "Victim" tone myself as well as others who have brought it to my attention.

I will discuss that further with my counselor. I have read a great bood by Melody Beatie called Codependent no more and the the similarities are eerie. Like reading my life in a book. I do believe that codependancy is a huge issue and am trying to learn how to break the cycle. That is one reason I want a spouse, current or different, that will understand and work to do things different. But what do you do when your spouse will not, actually says will not participate in any marriage healing activities?

I feel like I am married to a drug user and keep justifying reasons to stay in the marriage. Yes I have thought about the enabling. An I am sure that I am feeding her behaviors by not standing up to her, but then it gets ugly. Viscious cycle. Where does it end. I think about my kids and what it would be like for them to be loved like I am seeing others loved and accepted. It breaks my heart to think of them growing up and having the same problems I am.

You all have given me alot to think about. thanks again.

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Gunnut78,

I am reading the same book by Melody Beatie.. Another one that for me was eerily a spot on description of some of the codependent issues I am working through is No More Mr. Nice Guy by Robert Glover.

Enabling is a difficult thing. For me right now even with the divorce proceedings my wife has not left yet and is still living in a spare bedroom downstairs. She was going to move out but I counseled her it was probably not a good idea since she didn't have a job and would just end up getting evicted. I did this in the interest of making sure that my kids are in a stable environment when they are with her. But at the same time, she is the one that wanted this and I removed a natural consequence to her decision by agreeing to let her stay. So now, I am living with the consequences. I think that is the essence of enabling that we remove consequences that they should experience and take them upon ourselves to rescue them. In the end, hurting ourselves and preventing them from learning any lessons.

My prayers go out to you! I am on the same path as you are on, just a little further ahead. My advice is to reach out and grab hold of the iron rod! In my case, in a state of depression I let go of it and grabbing hold of it again has made all the difference for me!

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It may sound bad, but it is nice to know that I am not alone in fighting this issue. Thanks for all the insight. My family has been telling me for years that she is getting what she wants and as long as she does there is no reason for her to change her behavior.

Thanks for the book referance. I will read it when I am done with "Crucial conversations".

God bless

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How is a temple marriage not legal? Are you talking about temple marriage in countries other than the US?

Considering that one of the firm beliefs of the church is that there shall be no sexual relations between people who are not legally and lawfully wedded, my guess is there's some type of language barrier with what Vickie posted.

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I didn't read the posts, but it sounds like you've done your time... and even more importantly it sounds like you're ready to move on and just want some validation here. By all means friend, please improve your life and move on. When you do you'll find that she probably reacts strongly and begs for you to come back - and that will be your call at that point.

Manchild gave what I consider terrible advice, but advice is just an oppinion. I suggest starting down that path and seeing where it takes you. I'm guessing you will have a much harder time starting down that path than you are saying here, you probably feel trapped. Godspeed my friend, do what makes you happy and find someone who you can love and show your kids what a wonderful relationship can look like. Do you want them growing up thinking its ok to be controlled/controlling, lazy/overworked, unappreciative/unappreciated. Well your kids will grow up and have relationships just like yours if you don't do something about it... My soon to be X father in law is old, under total control, and completely isolated because he never did anything to take back his life. If you are being honest in this post then you owe it to yourself and your kids to move on. I know I'm not a shining example of what is right and I've made soem bad choices but I feel strongly that you should start to take action on what you've probably been considering for years and years. Please do something, even if it's just baby steps, or you will be unhappy for the rest of your life...

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  • 4 years later...

I found that standing up to my wife, by clearly restating her falsehoods and refusing to be manipulated (when I could see it, anyway) has not only eliminated my co-dependency, but it has also helped us avoid some of the more horrible things that BPDs do to their husbands. Kind of like punching the nose of the shark.

 

I also want to point out to those that aren't familiar with BPD, that contracts, such as temple covenants and other agreements, are meaningless to most of them. Everything they said in the temple when you were sealed was just part of a fun ceremony where they were the centre of attention.   That makes it tough to build a marriage relationship. They are aware of the impact of their decisions, and know right from wrong, but they only care about themselves. 

I read that the reason why husbands of BPDs in long term relationships (30 years for me) are typically co-dependent is because the others leave before the second year ends. Co-dependent people are willing to ignore a lot of bad behaviour if they think they can help. Of course, once we truly understand how powerless we are to help a BPD...

Edited by John
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Guest MormonGator
On November 7, 2011 at 11:40 PM, gunnut78 said:

 

When do you call it quits and move on? I don't want to live in an eternal marriage that is torture.

Any suggestions would be helpful.

 

Your situation sound rough, but before you end the marriage, you need to ask yourself "Will I regret this in ten years?"  I'm happily married to a wonderful woman, but I still have guilt about relationships I've ended. I'm not saying you aren't within your rights to bring up the topic-you totally are-but you have kids and unless the situation is horrific (yours is bad, not horrific) you need to think about how the divorce would effect them. 

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