Sacrament and Baptismal Covenants Questions


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I know that through repentance I can receive a remission of sins, that I, through having a broken heart and a contrite spirit and doing whatever the Lord wants me to do, can be justified and sanctified and get "back on the right track." As I understand it, this should be a regular experience as we continue to become more like the Savior. If I can retain a remission of sins and all of the blessings of keeping my covenants by virtue of repentance, what then, is the principal reason that I need the sacrament?

Thank you. I always love to hear what everyone has to say. God bless.

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While the Sacrament is not a "necessary" ordinance, we need it as a weekly reminder of the One who makes it possible for us to receive a remission of our sins. Without Christ, no amount of repentance, broken hearts, contrite spirit, obedience, etc. brings a remission of sin. The Sacrament reminds us each week of Christ's atonement.

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As I understand it, when we sin two things happen. First, we have broke the law, or covenant that we made at baptism, and second we have a need to be reconciled to Christ for the sin we have done (i.e. we need to use the Atonement). Repentance reconciles us to Christ, and satisfies mercy. The Sacrament repairs the broken law (i.e we receive the covenant new again), and satisfies justice. Both are necessary for complete remission of our sins.

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The principle reason for baptism is to wash away our sins so that we become clean. When we were baptized we promised to do basically four things: keep the 1) Law of Chastity, 2) Word of Wisdom, 3) Law of Tithing, 4) Sabbath Day Holy. These questions are asked by missionaries to new converts, and by Bishops during temple recommend interviews to see if we are keeping our Baptismal Covenant.

Each week when we take the bread and water it is a renewal of our Baptismal Covenant. We recommit ourselves to obeying those four commandments, and in return our baptism is made effectual by washing away our sins again. Through faith and repentance, each week we have the opportunity to be as clean as when we stepped out of the waters of baptism. We are, in effect sinless at that moment (working through repentance). And we can feel the presence of Holy Ghost stronger as he dwells in a clean vessel, which is part of the sacrament blessing.

However, this is why when we break these specifically these commandments we are asked to not take the sacrament. If we are not willing to keep our Baptismal Covenant, how can it be effectual by taking the sacrament?

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I know that through repentance I can receive a remission of sins, that I, through having a broken heart and a contrite spirit and doing whatever the Lord wants me to do, can be justified and sanctified and get "back on the right track." As I understand it, this should be a regular experience as we continue to become more like the Savior. If I can retain a remission of sins and all of the blessings of keeping my covenants by virtue of repentance, what then, is the principal reason that I need the sacrament?

I don't believe there is a way to separate the sacrament from repentance. In essence the steps we must take to receive the covenant are faith, repentance, baptism, and laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. To renew the covenant the steps are similar, exercise faith, repent, partake of the sacrament, receive the Holy Ghost. In your statement you speak of a broken heart and contrite spirit and doing whatever the Lord wants us to do. Partaking of the sacrament is what the Lord wants us to do. Can someone truly have a broken heart and contrite spirit yet refuse to take the sacrament?

The commandment is clear. Here are the words of Christ. First from the Book of Mormon, after Christ had broken the bread for the sacrament these words, "And this shall ye always observe to do..." (3 Ne 18:6). From Matthew, "Take eat: this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them saying, Drink ye all of it; for this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." (Matt 26:26-28) Just after the feeding of the 5,000 Christ testifies even more strongly of the need to partake of the sacrament and renew the covenant, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you." (John 6:53)

LittleWyvern explained the covenant clearly. I would simply say, who would dare even put the covenant at risk? It is the most wonderful blessing. From the moment of baptism Christ covers our sins, we are perfected in him. When we partake of the bread and water we recommit to the covenant. If we have the opportunity to partake and knowingly decide not to partake, our commitment is lost. Willingness is the key. It is in the very prayer each week. By not partaking we have demonstrated through our actions that we are unwilling to remain in the covenant.

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The principle reason for baptism is to wash away our sins so that we become clean. When we were baptized we promised to do basically four things: keep the 1) Law of Chastity, 2) Word of Wisdom, 3) Law of Tithing, 4) Sabbath Day Holy. These questions are asked by missionaries to new converts, and by Bishops during temple recommend interviews to see if we are keeping our Baptismal Covenant.

Each week when we take the bread and water it is a renewal of our Baptismal Covenant. We recommit ourselves to obeying those four commandments, and in return our baptism is made effectual by washing away our sins again. Through faith and repentance, each week we have the opportunity to be as clean as when we stepped out of the waters of baptism. We are, in effect sinless at that moment (working through repentance). And we can feel the presence of Holy Ghost stronger as he dwells in a clean vessel, which is part of the sacrament blessing.

However, this is why when we break these specifically these commandments we are asked to not take the sacrament. If we are not willing to keep our Baptismal Covenant, how can it be effectual by taking the sacrament?

I have to speak up here ... taking the sacrement does not wash us clean again ... that happens only at baptism and at one point in the temple. And by washinhg clean I mean that we become as clean as when we were born only at these 2 times. We take the sacrement to remember the covenants we made at baptism and helps us be able to work harder to maintain our repentance process and continue to grow. If the sacrement did in fact wash us clean each time there would be no point in working to live the commandments when all we had to do was take the sacrement. While we can repent and turn our lives around and leave sin behind we are still subject to the consequences of our actions.

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Given the fact that we are human, and therefore continue to sin after baptism, the sacrament may be viewed as a way of remembering renewing our baptismal covenants with God. You sin again, you repent again, and during the sacrament you can promise to God that you will keep trying to do better at upholding your covenants.

I like that what we call "the sacrament" is referred to as "communion" by people of other faiths. When we partake of the sacrament, we commune with Jesus by symbolically recreating the Last Supper, a communal meal during which we eat bread and drink water that represent Jesus' body and blood, metaphorically making him part of ourselves (and, conversely, ourselves part of him), thus becoming "at one" with him and fellow members of the Body of Christ (the Church).

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I have to speak up here ... taking the sacrement does not wash us clean again ... that happens only at baptism and at one point in the temple. And by washinhg clean I mean that we become as clean as when we were born only at these 2 times. We take the sacrement to remember the covenants we made at baptism and helps us be able to work harder to maintain our repentance process and continue to grow. If the sacrement did in fact wash us clean each time there would be no point in working to live the commandments when all we had to do was take the sacrement. While we can repent and turn our lives around and leave sin behind we are still subject to the consequences of our actions.

I am by no means an expert on doctrine, but I was taught the exact opposite of this. I was taught that when you take sacrament it is as if you have just come out of the waters of baptism. I had been told a story about a woman who committed a major sin and asked if she could be 'rebaptized' so that she would feel forgiven for that sin. The church told her it was not necessary because when she next partook of sacrament it would be the same as being baptized (again).

I have also been told many times that when you perform temple ordinances (baptism for example) it is as if you yourself have just gone thru that ordinance.

This is just what I have been taught. I would be very sad if I found out that I was wrong about sacrament. I always prepare very carefully, and when I drink the water I always feel the spirit tell me that I am renewed again. It is a wonderful blessing for me!

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If the sacrement did in fact wash us clean each time there would be no point in working to live the commandments when all we had to do was take the sacrement. While we can repent and turn our lives around and leave sin behind we are still subject to the consequences of our actions.

I am by no means an expert on doctrine, but I was taught the exact opposite of this. I was taught that when you take sacrament it is as if you have just come out of the waters of baptism. I had been told a story about a woman who committed a major sin and asked if she could be 'rebaptized' so that she would feel forgiven for that sin. The church told her it was not necessary because when she next partook of sacrament it would be the same as being baptized (again).

I have also been told many times that when you perform temple ordinances (baptism for example) it is as if you yourself have just gone thru that ordinance.

This is just what I have been taught. I would be very sad if I found out that I was wrong about sacrament. I always prepare very carefully, and when I drink the water I always feel the spirit tell me that I am renewed again. It is a wonderful blessing for me!

Well, both of you are right in a sense. The sacrament doesn't take the place of the Atonement, but the sacrament is still a saving ordinance. Why do we repent before taking the sacrament? It it because it make no sense to replace a broken law with a broken law. If we are still doing a sin, and take the sacrament, that doesn't take away that sin. However, if we do a sin, repent (use the Atonement), then take the sacrament, then not only have we been forgiven for our sins but we also receive a new law.

To picture this easier, consider this little object lesson that I love: picture yourself as a sheet of paper. When you sin, it's as if you take a pen and stab it through the paper, creating a hole. Obviously that hole needs to be covered up. The sacrament is akin to folding the paper over in half so that the hole is covered. However, if we leave the pen in the hole, it just tears a hole in the paper that we fold over, which doesn't really help much. So, we need to take the pen out of the hole first, which is akin to removing the sin through repentance. Then, when we take the sacrament, we can fold that paper over and have the hole created by sin covered up.

So, both processes, repentance and the sacrament, are essential for complete remission of our sins. One doesn't work without the other.

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However to be "washed clean" (being spotless, pure as the day we were born) this only happens in 2 places ... not while taking the sacrement. During the sacrement we remember, renew and promise to do better. Other than the 2 places I spoke of we are completely responsible for our actions when we accept the atonement.

There was a thread awhile back discussing someone wanting to be rebaptised ... it was brought up there that it would be just going through the motions because esentially there are no do overs ... there are just 2 times we can return to the state that we had when we left HF ... the rest is up to our acceptance of the atonement and working through repentance and forgiveness.

This doesn't make me sad it gives me so much hope and fills me with the love our HF and our Savior have for us. They gave me a fresh start and are now helping me home. My greatest wish is to have my Savior wrap me in His arms and tell me "Well done".

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The Guide to the Scriptures has this to say about Sanctification:

The process of becoming free from sin, pure, clean, and holy through the atonement of Jesus Christ.

...and this to say about Justification:

To be pardoned from punishment for sin and declared guiltless. A person is justified by the Savior’s grace through faith in him. This faith is shown by repentance and obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. Jesus Christ’s atonement enables mankind to repent and be justified or pardoned from punishment they otherwise would receive.

So, it appears to me that sanctification has to do mostly with becoming clean through the atonement (a mercy thing), while justification has more to do with the justice side of sin: to be declared guiltless and pardoned from the penalty that the law would afflict due to that sin. So, sanctification is what we receive through repentance, and justification is what we receive through the sacrament. Now, just because we can be declared guiltless when we take the sacrament doesn't mean we can not worry about sinning: if we are currently in sin, declaring ourselves guiltless doesn't help much because we immediately convict ourselves again not only because of a sort of deception that that sort of thinking requires (which is why taking the sacrament without making an effort to repent isn't good), but we also convict ourselves because we are still under sin. We must first become sanctified or cleansed through repentance and the Atonement before we can receive justification. This is, incidentally, part of the scriptural basis for that object lesson I showed earlier.

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One of my favorite chapters in the Bible is James chapter 2. James should have been a Book of Mormon prophet because he writes so plainly:

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Wow. I bet you didn't know the Bible could be so plain, eh?

The way I separate it, and it is along the same lines you do, is that:

Sanctification is what Christ offers you. Christ offers you, through repentance, the washing clean of all committed sins.

Justification is what you gain through faith in Christ and keeping His commandment. It does no good to be washed clean if your desire is to sin again. You are justified when you no longer desire to commit sin, and this comes through the atonement as well, but is the practical application.

Yes, past sins need to be washed clean (Sanctification), but we need a way to become clean from the thoughts and desires of sin as well (Justification).

Does that go along with what you said?

So, where does the sacrament fall in place? How about both? How about Justication is the bread and Sanctification is the Water? The bread represents the flesh, and the water represents the spirit. There are some subtle, but meaninful, differences in the two sacrament prayers (check it out). Note any difference, especially after the "O God, the Eternal Father" in the middle of the prayers.

Water baptism is for the physical or Sanctification (bread), and the Gift of the Holy Ghost is for the spiritual, or Justification (water).

Sanctification is more pointed to what Christ offers us, a chance to become free of the sins that we've committed whjile in the flesh, or while "in the world." We can contribute nothing to paying the price for a committed sin, but are required to repent in order to be clean, because by repenting we can become justified...

Justification is more pointed to grace, and is the enabling part of Christ overcoming and showing us how. This we gain by exercising faith in Christ and His Gospel. Without Christ we are nothing; with Christ we can accomplish all things... even becoming free from even the desire to sin. Then we choose God's will for ourselves, like Christ showed the perfect example of doing.

Once we've been born again and desire to sin no more, we would still be in debt to justice for the sins we committed. So, both are required.

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However to be "washed clean" (being spotless, pure as the day we were born) this only happens in 2 places ... not while taking the sacrement.

Not so last time you said it. Not so still. This idea is false. And please spell sacrament correctly...

HiJolly

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Perhaps I just don't understand the LDS theology or perhaps it's terminology ---- but I always believed that it is through the atonement of Christ that we can become clean - and that we can be "clean and spotless" every day of our lives if we accept Christ's atonement and strive to love him with all our hearts, might and strength. I don't understand why the sacrament is essential at all? I mean, what about all those who don't even know about this ceremony?

Since we are all sinners, than if the only time we are "spotless and pure" was at baptism and in the temple ---- then the only people who will benefit from Christ's sacrifice would be those people who die immediately after those two events took place.

What am I missing? I guess I am just re-asking the original OP question.

Edited by cwald
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However to be "washed clean" (being spotless, pure as the day we were born) this only happens in 2 places ... not while taking the sacrement. During the sacrement we remember, renew and promise to do better. Other than the 2 places I spoke of we are completely responsible for our actions when we accept the atonement.

What do you mean?

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Perhaps I just don't understand the LDS theology or perhaps it's terminology ---- but I always believed that it is through the atonement of Christ that we can become clean - and that we can be "clean and spotless" every day of our lives if we accept Christ's atonement and strive to love him with all our hearts, might and strength. I don't understand why the sacrament is essential at all? I mean, what about all those who don't even know about this ceremony?

You're right: through the Atonement of Christ we all can become clean of sins. Christ offers that to everybody, regardless of whether they are a member of the LDS Church or not. However, for members of the LDS Church, when we sin we also break the covenants we made at baptism. Sure, we can become clean of our sin, but the law is still broken, and unless we want to pay the consequence for the broken law we need to receive that covenant again. This is what the sacrament does: it renews the covenants we made at baptism so we don't have to pay the penalty. So, via the sacrament we are both clean (through the Atonement) and our covenants are renewed, satisfying both mercy and justice.

For those who aren't members of the LDS Church, there's no covenant to renew, so the sacrament does nothing in a covenant sense (although the sacrament does do a lot of other things, as Madriglace pointed out). I don't believe there's any penalty to this, because God is not going to hold us accountable for things we don't know (yes, it is impossible to be saved in ignorance, but this refers to willful ignorance, see Mal. 2:7-9).

Since we are all sinners, than if the only time we are "spotless and pure" was at baptism and in the temple ---- then the only people who will benefit from Christ's sacrifice would be those people who die immediately after those two events took place.

You're correct here as well. This is exactly why the sacrament is so vital.

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However to be "washed clean" (being spotless, pure as the day we were born) this only happens in 2 places ... not while taking the sacrement. During the sacrement we remember, renew and promise to do better. Other than the 2 places I spoke of we are completely responsible for our actions when we accept the atonement.

All ordinances work the Lord's veil. If your heart is in the right place and you participate in these ordinances following the light of Christ and the commandment carved above the doors of every temple you will necessarily be sanctified by Christ. Baptism and washings are simply the most overt examples, but all of the saving ordinances have the potential for having the same effect because they all enact Christ's Atonement in your life (if you allow it).

Sacrament is the most holy of all the rites according to Jeffrey R. Holland. The chapel veils it from the world, and the emblems are always covered when not in use. We enter and exit the chapel like Jonah, swallowed and expelled by the whale. Hence the whale, the chapel, the temple, and the font are all wombs symbolically. The intent of entering them is always sanctification, rebirth and belonging.

Do not mistake the commonality of the rite with a lack of veil work. All the saving ordinances work the Lord's veil without exception, and that veil is a sacred, immutable tool of God that does nothing but sanctify or condemn. Hence the command not to partake of the Sacrament unworthily because it is like eating and drinking damnation you your soul.

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Perhaps I just don't understand the LDS theology or perhaps it's terminology ---- but I always believed that it is through the atonement of Christ that we can become clean - and that we can be "clean and spotless" every day of our lives if we accept Christ's atonement and strive to love him with all our hearts, might and strength. I don't understand why the sacrament is essential at all? I mean, what about all those who don't even know about this ceremony?

Since we are all sinners, than if the only time we are "spotless and pure" was at baptism and in the temple ---- then the only people who will benefit from Christ's sacrifice would be those people who die immediately after those two events took place.

What am I missing? I guess I am just re-asking the original OP question.

I guess the difference is in how one looks at the difference in "washed clean" and "can become clean". Baptism and the temple ceremony "wash us clean" as in we return to our original state when we left HF. The sacrament helps us to "become clean" ... as in after we accept the atonement we are responsible to work toward our salvation, knowing that there is no way that we can completely avoid sin and that we are saved by grace after all we can do. Also realizing that there is no way we can be perfect in this life but that as long as we are better today than yesterday we have done our best.

And as to those who don't have the opportunity to know and accept ... that is why we do proxy temple work ... so they will have the chance. The plan is wonderful.

And Hi Jolly ... if you don't like my spelling ... tough noogies!:)

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The necessity of partaking of the sacrament regularly is based in two things. First, in doing so, we are keeping the commandment in 3 Nephi 18:

6 And this shall ye always observe to do, even as I have done, even as I have broken bread and blessed it and given it unto you.

7 And this shall ye do in remembrance of my body, which I have shown unto you. And it shall be a testimony unto the Father that ye do always remember me. And if ye do always remember me ye shall have my Spirit to be with you...

11 And this shall ye always do to those who repent and are baptized in my name; and ye shall do it in remembrance of my blood, which I have shed for you, that ye may witness unto the Father that ye do always remember me. And if ye do always remember me ye shall have my Spirit to be with you.

12 And I give unto you a commandment that ye shall do these things. And if ye shall always do these things blessed are ye, for ye are built upon my rock.

13 But whoso among you shall do more or less than these are not built upon my rock, but are built upon a sandy foundation; and when the rain descends, and the floods come, and the winds blow, and beat upon them, they shall fall, and the gates of hell are ready open to receive them.

That passage there should convince any LDS member of the necessity to receive the sacrament as often as possible. In keeping the commandment we show the Lord that we remember his sacrifice and he gives the Holy Ghost as a blessing for obeying it. Those who "do more or less" are not "built upon my rock." They will become weaker and fall away in times of difficulty.

The Lord also explained to Joseph Smith in Section 84 of the D&C:

19 And this greater priesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God.

20 Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest.

21 And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh;

Without the ordinances of the gospel, the "power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh." The power of godliness is what Christians call "grace." We are saved by grace and we obtain grace through faith, making covenants, and obeying the gospel ordinances that are associated with those covenants. If we omit the ordinances, we do not receive the grace.

Yes, partaking of the sacrament is an essential gospel ordinance--that is, unless someone has figured out a way to be saved without needing grace.

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T

Yes, partaking of the sacrament is an essential gospel ordinance--that is, unless someone has figured out a way to be saved without needing grace.

I don't understand how it could possibly be an essential gospel ordinance in order for one to be saved by grace - or else wouldn't the mormon people be doing it in proxy for the dead?

The mormons do baptisms, washings, endowments and sealings for the dead, and they believe that all people need this ordinances. But as far as I know they don't do sacrament for the dead.

To me, that is the answer to the question on whether or not the LDS church believes that the sacrament is necessary. Obviously, the mormon church officially does not believe it is essential for salvation and exaltation.

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