6 Christian Questions...i Need To Know!

[Princess3dward]

Every time you write LOL does that mean that you are actually laughing out load?

No. It means I am bored, or have nothing better to say... not that it is anything at all.

[JoshuaFKon]

The thief on the cross was given a chance to learn it in the spirit world. He is not saved, but if we did his temple work, and if he accepted the gosple, he could be.

Remind me again why you need temple work to be "saved" in paridise?

Josh B)

[Princess3dward]

Remind me again why you need temple work to be "saved" in paridise?

Josh B)

Why? You are just going to make fun of me.

[JoshuaFKon]

Why? You are just going to make fun of me.

Actually, I am not familier with the specifics of this....I know mormons do it, I know what they do it for...But I don't know the "scriptual" reasons

Besides, have I ever made fun of a doctinal teaching? No. I have questioned the authentisity of the scripture from which it is based...but I have never made fun....(The Kolob thing doesn't count because I was only agreeing with FAIR)

Josh B)

[Dr T]

I hope he wouldn't make fun. Josh, do you promise not to make fun? Are you asking for information or for some other reason?

quizzically,

Dr. T

[JoshuaFKon]

I hope he wouldn't make fun. Josh, do you promise not to make fun? Are you asking for information or for some other reason?

quizzically,

Dr. T

As long as its based on a scriptual text, I promise.

And no, no other reason...I was actually bored...no one was talking on my threads...so I thought I'd come here.

[Princess3dward]

Whatever.

I don't know a whole lot. I AM still learning.

It doesn't change whether I know it to be true or not though!!

We believe that you need all of the temple ordinances(sp?) done before you can go to the celestial kingdom, and so we do it for the dead.. and I DO have scripture.....

1 Corinthians 15:28-29, but ofcourse reading the whole chapter might be best for understanding (if you have the spirit helping ofcourse, so pray first too).

[JoshuaFKon]

Whatever.

I don't know a whole lot. I AM still learning.

It doesn't change whether I know it to be true or not though!!

We believe that you need all of the temple ordinances(sp?) done before you can go to the celestial kingdom, and so we do it for the dead.. and I DO have scripture.....

1 Corinthians 15:28-29, but ofcourse reading the whole chapter might be best for understanding (if you have the spirit helping ofcourse, so pray first too).

Ah.....Temple work=Baptism for the dead, I wasn't sure what you meant by "temple work"

I assume there are verses in the Book of Mormon, that supports this as well....

So I won't tell you why I differ in my interpretation of that verse, unless you want me to?

See? I didn't make fun of you......

[Princess3dward]

<div class='quotemain'>

Whatever.

I don't know a whole lot. I AM still learning.

It doesn't change whether I know it to be true or not though!!

We believe that you need all of the temple ordinances(sp?) done before you can go to the celestial kingdom, and so we do it for the dead.. and I DO have scripture.....

1 Corinthians 15:28-29, but ofcourse reading the whole chapter might be best for understanding (if you have the spirit helping ofcourse, so pray first too).

Ah.....Temple work=Baptism for the dead, I wasn't sure what you meant by "temple work"

I assume there are verses in the Book of Mormon, that supports this as well....

So I won't tell you why I differ in my interpretation of that verse, unless you want me to?

See? I didn't make fun of you......

Uh oh.

Go ahead...

[JoshuaFKon]

Well I don't know about the Book of Mormon, of any other the other Mormon books...but this is the only place in the Bible where baptism of the dead is mentioned. ( I believe it is the only scripture anywhere, I would be interested to hear if there are verses regarding this in the Book of Mormon) Elsewhere in the Bible it is clear that we are saved...not by works (such as temple work) but by grace alone (Romans 4:5 ; Eph. 2:8-9; Titus 3:5-7)

You have to admit...it is strange that such an important principle would not be mentioned more clearly in the Bible, or in the Book of Mormon...I mean how many people lost the chance to have "temple work" save them after they died, because it was not clear in the Bible untill The Mormons figured it out.....and this is a very important doctrine to base on one verse.

As for what Paul means when he says:

"Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead?"

I personally believe there are two possibilties:

(1) Paul may refer to the fact that baptism of new converts is replenishing the depleted ranks of believers who have died. If so, his sense here would be, "why do you continue to fill the church with baptized converts, who replace those who ahve died, if you do not really believe there is any hope for them beyond the grave?"

"

(2) Just north of Corinth was a city named Eleusis. This was the location of a pagan religion where baptism in the sea was practiced to guarantee a good afterlife. This religion was mention by Homer in Hymn to Demeter 478-79.2 The Corinthians were known to be heavily influenced by other customs. After all, they were in a large economic area where a great many different people frequented. It is probable that the Corinthians were being influenced by the religious practices found at Eleusis where baptism for the dead was practiced.

Paul used this example from the pagans in 1 Cor. 15:29, when he said, "...if the dead are not raised, then why are they baptized for the dead?" Paul did not say we.1 This is significant because the Christian church was not practicing baptism for the dead, but the pagans were.

Paul's point was simple. The resurrection is a reality. It is going to happen when Jesus returns. Even the pagans believe in the resurrection, otherwise, why would they baptize for the dead? Notice that Elsewhere in 1 Corinthians uses first-person pronouns. At verse 29 Paul switches from the first-person to "they"

Josh B)

[Princess3dward]

Well I don't know about the Book of Mormon, of any other the other Mormon books...but this is the only place in the Bible where baptism of the dead is mentioned. ( I believe it is the only scripture anywhere, I would be interested to hear if there are verses regarding this in the Book of Mormon) Elsewhere in the Bible it is clear that we are saved...not by works (such as temple work) but by grace alone (Romans 4:5 ; Eph. 2:8-9; Titus 3:5-7)

You have to admit...it is strange that such an important principle would not be mentioned more clearly in the Bible, or in the Book of Mormon...I mean how many people lost the chance to have "temple work" save them after they died, because it was not clear in the Bible untill The Mormons figured it out.....and this is a very important doctrine to base on one verse.

As for what Paul means when he says:

"Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead?"

I personally believe there are two possibilties:

(1) Paul may refer to the fact that baptism of new converts is replenishing the depleted ranks of believers who have died. If so, his sense here would be, "why do you continue to fill the church with baptized converts, who replace those who ahve died, if you do not really believe there is any hope for them beyond the grave?"

"

(2) Just north of Corinth was a city named Eleusis. This was the location of a pagan religion where baptism in the sea was practiced to guarantee a good afterlife. This religion was mention by Homer in Hymn to Demeter 478-79.2 The Corinthians were known to be heavily influenced by other customs. After all, they were in a large economic area where a great many different people frequented. It is probable that the Corinthians were being influenced by the religious practices found at Eleusis where baptism for the dead was practiced.

Paul used this example from the pagans in 1 Cor. 15:29, when he said, "...if the dead are not raised, then why are they baptized for the dead?" Paul did not say we.1 This is significant because the Christian church was not practicing baptism for the dead, but the pagans were.

Paul's point was simple. The resurrection is a reality. It is going to happen when Jesus returns. Even the pagans believe in the resurrection, otherwise, why would they baptize for the dead? Notice that Elsewhere in 1 Corinthians uses first-person pronouns. At verse 29 Paul switches from the first-person to "they"

Josh B)

I am going to pray tonight to explain this better!!!

I really want to be able to explain myself to people...

This is starting to stink for me!

[BenRaines]

I went back and read 1 Corinthians and to me it seems that Paul was speaking to the members in Corinth regarding the resurrrection and that they were having doubts concerning it. Paul's question of "Why do we baptise for the dead if the dead rise not" would be again asking "If there is no resurrection why do we do baptisms for the dead?".

That is how I read that and I have never heard it explained that he was discussing the baptism of new converts to replace those who had died.

Ben Raines

[Dr T]

Hey Ben,

I agree with you when you said,

I have never heard it explained that he was discussing the baptism of new converts to replace those who had died.

That doesn't make sense.

Dr. T

[Princess3dward]

Hey Ben,

I agree with you when you said,

I have never heard it explained that he was discussing the baptism of new converts to replace those who had died.

That doesn't make sense.

Dr. T

In all honesty, me too...

You can't replace people...

[Brother Dorsey]

Baptism for the dead (and other Temple oridinances for the dead) Makes perfect sense to me!

I believe God is a fair and loving God...why would he condem his children to afterlife of suffering because they never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel and partake of it's saving ordinances! It all has to do with obedience and acceptance of the commandments regardless whether it makes sense to you or not...remember the blind man who went to Christ and Christ took some clay, spit on it and put it over the mans eyes and then told him to go wash in the Jordan river, to dunk himself 7 times...he didn't question...he did it and was healed...which dunk in the water healed him? None of them...it was his obedience and faith that healed him...the dunking was a test of that obedience and faith...as are the Temple ordinances....He loves us and his plan of salvation is for everyone...not just those who hear his word while alive in the world!

[JoshuaFKon]

Baptism for the dead (and other Temple oridinances for the dead) Makes perfect sense to me!

I believe God is a fair and loving God...why would he condem his children to afterlife of suffering because they never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel and partake of it's saving ordinances! It all has to do with obedience and acceptance of the commandments regardless whether it makes sense to you or not...remember the blind man who went to Christ and Christ took some clay, spit on it and put it over the mans eyes and then told him to go wash in the Jordan river, to dunk himself 7 times...he didn't question...he did it and was healed...which dunk in the water healed him? None of them...it was his obedience and faith that healed him...the dunking was a test of that obedience and faith...as are the Temple ordinances....He loves us and his plan of salvation is for everyone...not just those who hear his word while alive in the world!

I never said that if you never hear the gospel then you go to hell....I consider the possiblitiy that there is a "paridise" where Jesus preached to people who never heard the gospel, but you talk about a "fair and loving" God...how fair is it if two people are in "paridse" and one is "baptised" by proxy but the other isn't so he goes to hell automatically? No....if there is a "paridse" then everyone should have an equal chance.

Josh B)

[Princess3dward]

<div class='quotemain'>

Baptism for the dead (and other Temple oridinances for the dead) Makes perfect sense to me!

I believe God is a fair and loving God...why would he condem his children to afterlife of suffering because they never had the opportunity to hear the Gospel and partake of it's saving ordinances! It all has to do with obedience and acceptance of the commandments regardless whether it makes sense to you or not...remember the blind man who went to Christ and Christ took some clay, spit on it and put it over the mans eyes and then told him to go wash in the Jordan river, to dunk himself 7 times...he didn't question...he did it and was healed...which dunk in the water healed him? None of them...it was his obedience and faith that healed him...the dunking was a test of that obedience and faith...as are the Temple ordinances....He loves us and his plan of salvation is for everyone...not just those who hear his word while alive in the world!

I never said that if you never hear the gospel then you go to hell....I consider the possiblitiy that there is a "paridise" where Jesus preached to people who never heard the gospel, but you talk about a "fair and loving" God...how fair is it if two people are in "paridse" and one is "baptised" by proxy but the other isn't so he goes to hell automatically? No....if there is a "paridse" then everyone should have an equal chance.

Josh B)

He is fair and loving.

There will be a millennium (1000 years of peace) where EVERYTHING will be corrected, and Jesus will reign!

[Maureen]

Here's an explanation from bible.org:

Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead?17 If the dead are not raised at all, then why are they baptized for them? (1Cor .15:29)

17 sn Many suggestions have been offered for the puzzling expression baptized for the dead. There are up to 200 different explanations for the passage; a summary is given by K. C. Thompson, "I Corinthians 15, 29 and Baptism for the Dead," Studia Evangelica 2.1 (TU 87), 647-59. The most likely interpretation is that some Corinthians had undergone baptism to bear witness to the faith of fellow believers who had died without experiencing that rite themselves. Paul's reference to the practice here is neither a recommendation nor a condemnation. He simply uses it as evidence from the lives of the Corinthians themselves to bolster his larger argument, begun in 15:12, that resurrection from the dead is a present reality in Christ and a future reality for them. Whatever they may have proclaimed, the Corinthians' actions demonstrated that they had hope for a bodily resurrection.

M.

[Princess3dward]

Here's an explanation from bible.org:

Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead?17 If the dead are not raised at all, then why are they baptized for them? (1Cor .15:29)

17 sn Many suggestions have been offered for the puzzling expression baptized for the dead. There are up to 200 different explanations for the passage; a summary is given by K. C. Thompson, "I Corinthians 15, 29 and Baptism for the Dead," Studia Evangelica 2.1 (TU 87), 647-59. The most likely interpretation is that some Corinthians had undergone baptism to bear witness to the faith of fellow believers who had died without experiencing that rite themselves. Paul's reference to the practice here is neither a recommendation nor a condemnation. He simply uses it as evidence from the lives of the Corinthians themselves to bolster his larger argument, begun in 15:12, that resurrection from the dead is a present reality in Christ and a future reality for them. Whatever they may have proclaimed, the Corinthians' actions demonstrated that they had hope for a bodily resurrection.

M.

But, as you said, it could mean a lot. I suppose Jesus would be able to explain it best to us after!

[Maureen]

...the opportunity to hear the Gospel and partake of it's saving ordinances! It all has to do with obedience and acceptance of the commandments....

Why do think it is the ordinances that save? Do you not think that it really is Christ's atonement that saves us. Obedience to commandments is very limiting, because no one can become righteous through the commandments (the law), only through faith in Christ.

What then shall we say that Abraham, our ancestor according to the flesh,1 has discovered regarding this matter?2 For if Abraham was declared righteous3 by the works of the law, he has something to boast about--but not before God. For what does the scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited4 to him as righteousness."5 Now to the one who works, his pay is not credited due to grace but due to obligation.6 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous,7 his faith is credited as righteousness….For the promise22 to Abraham or to his descendants that he would inherit the world was not fulfilled through the law, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. Romans 4:1-5, 13

Therefore, since we have been declared righteous by faith, we have2 peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice3 in the hope of God's glory. Not4 only this, but we also rejoice in sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance, character, and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint, because the love of God5 has been poured out6 in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. (For rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person perhaps someone might possibly dare to die.)7 But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, because we have now been declared righteous8 by his blood,9 we will be saved through him from God's wrath.10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more, since we have been reconciled, will we be saved by his life? Not11 only this, but we also rejoice12 in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received this reconciliation. Romans 5:1-11

M.

[JoshuaFKon]

He is fair and loving.

There will be a millennium (1000 years of peace) where EVERYTHING will be corrected, and Jesus will reign!

So....you don't need temple work to be saved?

Josh B)

[Princess3dward]

I want to see this, but I get eaten alive every time I do...because the prophet said.

Do you hate the idea of being sealed with your family?

I am sealed with no one... and would HATE that death could tear us apart. I want to SEE my family again. God loves me and he knows that.... that is why we do temple ordinances.. for blessings because God loves us..

He is fair and loving.

There will be a millennium (1000 years of peace) where EVERYTHING will be corrected, and Jesus will reign!

So....you don't need temple work to be saved?

Josh B)

There will be temple work in the millennium.. you DO need it! I never said you didn't.. I said everything will be made right.

[Maureen]

But, as you said, it could mean a lot...

I never said that, I just copied and pasted from the NET Bible at bible.org.

M.

[Princess3dward]

<div class='quotemain'>

But, as you said, it could mean a lot...

I never said that, I just copied and pasted from the NET Bible at bible.org.

M.

Sorry.... *But, as you just copied and pasted from the NET Bible at bible.org, it could mean a lot...

[Brother Dorsey]

<div class='quotemain'>

...the opportunity to hear the Gospel and partake of it's saving ordinances! It all has to do with obedience and acceptance of the commandments....

Why do think it is the ordinances that save? Do you not think that it really is Christ's atonement that saves us. Obedience to commandments is very limiting, because no one can become righteous through the commandments (the law), only through faith in Christ.

Baptism is a saving ordinance...without it from one who has the authority you cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Christ's atonement was so we can be forgiven for our sins...not that we will automaticlly be forgiven. He paid the price for our sins so we can be made clean before the Father...but Christ's atonement means nothing if we don't repent for our sins which means we will forsake doing them again...because without repentance there can be no forgiveness from the Father. When Christ said "I am the truth and the lfe" he was telling us to follow his example...ie; Baptism by immersion, recieveing the Holy Ghost, Praying to the Father through him, Loving eachother, forgiving eachother, going to the Temple, living the Commandments etc....in other words perfecting ourselves so we can be righteous. Christ came here to do 3 things for us....#1 to atone for the worlds sins, #2 to overcome death through the ressurection and #3 to be an example to us on how we should live.

You say "you cannot become righteous by living the commandments without faith in Christ"...this is true. However you cannot be saved by just having faith in Christ...you must follow the commandments also..."Faith without works is dead"

I know we both agree that the Atonement was a very special gift given all mankind...and Christ overcomeing death so we can all be ressurected and live again is another...for I know we will ALL be ressurected, everyone who has ever lived on this Earth...that's a given...that's where we were "Saved"...however to have eternal life, one where we progress to inheret all God has (Godhood) we must do the work the Lord has laid out before us...ie; Temple ordinances, serving one another, building up the kingdom of God on the Earth, etc.. I know I am saved through the grace of Christ but I also know I can have eternal life through following the commandments of my Father in heaven and doing his will and work while here on Earth. As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ I have been taught, through the fullness of the Gospel, that I can become as God has promised by being faithful to covanents made in the Temple, I can recieve his full inheritance. That is my salvation that I am working out...each must work out his/her own. He lives and he loves us and he wants us to return to him