6 Christian Questions...i Need To Know!

[JoshuaFKon]

Baptism is a saving ordinance...without it from one who has the authority you cannot enter the kingdom of God.

I completely dissagree with you. The Bible is clear, extremly clear that we are saved by grace...not through works! Baptism is a work!

"that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

Romans 10:8-9

I don't see anything about baptism....

This is a vaild question though...some verses do seem to say you must be baptised.

This link expains my position better than I can....

http://www.carm.org/questions/baptnec.htm

Josh B)

[BenRaines]

Joshua, what is your understanding then of Christ's instruction that we must be born of water.

1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named aNicodemus, a bruler of the Jews: 2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these amiracles that thou doest, except b<a href="http://"http://scriptures.lds.org/en/john/3/2b"" target="_blank">God be with him. </a> 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be aborn b<a href="http://"http://scriptures.lds.org/en/john/3/3b"" target="_blank">again, he cannot c<a href=\"http://scriptures.lds.org/en/john/3/3c\" target=\"_blank\">see</a> the kingdom of God. </a> 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? <a name="5"> 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be aborn of bwater and of the cSpirit, he cannot denter into the kingdom of God.

Does your copy of the New Testament not include those verses?

I know that there are many interpretations of the Bible and am curious. No offense intended.

Ben Raines

[JoshuaFKon]

Joshua, what is your understanding then of Christ's instruction that we must be born of water.

1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named aNicodemus, a bruler of the Jews: 2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these amiracles that thou doest, except b<a href="http://"http://scriptures.lds.org/en/john/3/2b"" target="_blank">God be with him. </a> 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be aborn b<a href="http://"http://scriptures.lds.org/en/john/3/3b"" target="_blank">again, he cannot csee the kingdom of God. </a> 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? <a name="5"> 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be aborn of bwater and of the cSpirit, he cannot denter into the kingdom of God.

Does your copy of the New Testament not include those verses?

I know that there are many interpretations of the Bible and am curious. No offense intended.

Ben Raines

Well Ben,

Looking at the verse,

The New Birth

1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”

10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.[a] 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

Off the top of my head, I would say it means...unless you are born "spiritually" as well as physically you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.

I don't know about Mormons but I believe that humans are both physical and spiritual.

When Adam sinned, I believe he "died" spiritually...so I think Jesus is saying is...you need to be born-again spirtually.

“Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit

I think Jesus clarifys verse five with verse six....he is talking about.....flesh and spirit

If he was talking about baptism Jesus would have said: "unless one is baptised of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

Notice that Nicodemus says: “How can these things be?” if Jesus was saying you need to be baptised, I think he would have understood that.

Sorry if my post is not clear, I would be happy to try again if I was not clear enough...

This link explains the "official" Christian position...but I like mine better.

http://www.carm.org/doctrine/John_3_5.htm

[Princess3dward]

You are really quick to shoot any and all anwsers down, and very slow to understand...

That was just an observation....

I noticed that before... but it is more relevent now!

[JoshuaFKon]

You are really quick to shoot any and all anwsers down, and very slow to understand...

That was just an observation....

I noticed that before... but it is more relevent now!

#1 Do you have a problem with my "shooting down" answers (if so why) or with how quickly I do it?

#2 Sorry it takes me a while to understand...your doctrine is all new to me...

Josh B)

(why is it more relevent now?)

[Princess3dward]

I don't know why it was more relevent now...

and YES I have a problem with how quickly! You were talking in circles before! You are like a sniper (not a real one), and you are all like, "I wanna know!" then when you find out, it is "BAM! Just kidding."

[BenRaines]

Joshua, so that I understand it is not your belief that Christ be baptized either. He just did it because he wanted to? Christ being perfect would be one who did not need baptism but he did it anyway. I wonder why?

Ben Raines

[JoshuaFKon]

I don't know why it was more relevent now...

and YES I have a problem with how quickly! You were talking in circles before! You are like a sniper (not a real one), and you are all like, "I wanna know!" then when you find out, it is "BAM! Just kidding."

#1 you're the one who said it was "more relevent" now.

#2 do you dissagree with my answers? do they not make sense? I object your your insinuation that I disagree for the sake of disagreeing..........

not trying to be mean...but could you be more specific? what question was asked? what was wrong with my answer?

Josh B)

[Princess3dward]

It is more relevent.. but I don't know how. Maybe it is just me, and I am just on a spiritual high or something, and you must be putting a damper on it.

[JoshuaFKon]

Joshua, so that I understand it is not your belief that Christ be baptized either. He just did it because he wanted to? Christ being perfect would be one who did not need baptism but he did it anyway. I wonder why?

Ben Raines

I would say (off the top of my head) that He was baptised to receive the power of the Holy Spirit.

I think you make my point for me when you pointed out that Jesus was baptised, even though He had no sin...

Why would he do that?

Josh B)

It is more relevent.. but I don't know how. Maybe it is just me, and I am just on a spiritual high or something, and you must be putting a damper on it.

I'm sorry I'm gonna have to be "slow to understand" again....what does that mean....?

Also, you didn't answer #2

[Princess3dward]

Why does Jesus get baptised? To show us how we should live our lives!

Well.. I said slow to understand, just because you were frustrating me.. and I thought it would make more sense to you than "you should be quick to listen, and slow to speak."

[BenRaines]

See I believe that Christ was baptized and if he being perfect needed baptism then I for sure need it. If Christ being perfect needed baptism then I for sure must be baptized. I feel that it is important to do all possible to model my life after Christ. If he was baptized I would too.

Ben Raines

[prisonchaplain]

See I believe that Christ was baptized and if he being perfect needed baptism then I for sure need it. If Christ being perfect needed baptism then I for sure must be baptized. I feel that it is important to do all possible to model my life after Christ. If he was baptized I would too.

Ben Raines

Jesus was baptized to show us the way--to model what He wanted us to do. Did He 'need' it? No. His time amongst us really wasn't about his needs.

Do I need to be baptized? Of course! Jesus commanded it. However, my baptism is done out of obedience, and as a testimony of my conversion--not as a prerequisite to receiving salvation.

[Princess3dward]

Well.. I kind of agree... I was baptised out of obediance... The Spirit prompted me...

[BenRaines]

PC, so you don't believe that you need to be baptized as a demonstration of your obedience to the commandment in order to be welcomed to the Lord.

I am sure you have read our Articles of Faith and the fourth that says "We believe the principles and ordinances of the gospel to be Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, Repentance, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands."

Someone has probably told you by now that we as LDS believe that all are saved due to the sacrifice and ressurection of Jesus Christ. Saved from being dead forever and the ability to have our sins forgiven by accepting Christ as our Savior. Main difference is that we believe actions are required of us to show our acceptance of Christ's offering and not just words. Conversion is of the spirit and the heart not words from our mouth.

Ben Raines

[JoshuaFKon]

Why does Jesus get baptised? To show us how we should live out lives!

Well.. I said slow to understand, just because you were frustrating me.. and I thought it would make more sense to you than "you should be quick to listen, and slow to speak."

(I notice you don't finish the verse..."slow to become angry" :) )

If baptism was such an important principle why wouldn't Jesus preach on it? He says "go and sin no more" not "go, be baptised, and sin no more" If you really need to be baptised to be saved, I think It would be crystal clear.

Plus, I believe someone said, you need to be baptised in the Mormon church, This means that for what about 1900 years no one is saved? If God needed to raise up another prophet....why would he wait 1900 years? Throughout History God raised up prophets...just to speak to his people. But after the apostles died...and you need to be baptisted with authority God does...nothing for almost 2000 years? why?

All the revivals that have taken place, the prodestent refromation, the Great Awakening, the Second Great Awakening...etc...no one was really "saved"? God was not there?

Also you didn't answer #2 again

#2 do you dissagree with my answers? do they not make sense? I object your your insinuation that I disagree for the sake of disagreeing..........

Josh B)

[Princess3dward]

Yes I disagree with your anwsers! No, they do not make sense.. we ALREADY told you about the millennium! It is only 1,000 years. We can't do EVERYTHING then, and starting now shows obediance. Their work WILL be done.

[JoshuaFKon]

Yes I disagree with your anwsers! No, they do not make sense.. we ALREADY told you about the millennium! It is only 1,000 years. We can't do EVERYTHING then, and starting now shows obediance. Their work WILL be done.

"It is only 1,000 years. We can't do EVERYTHING then,"

You don't think my answers make sense? Can you see how someone else could believe them? I mean I can (sort of) see how you believe baptism is necessary, Although I think deeper examimation proves it false.

Josh B)

[Princess3dward]

Matter of opinion.

[Maureen]

All the revivals that have taken place, the prodestent refromation, the Great Awakening, the Second Great Awakening...

JoshuaK, every so often you have these quirky slip ups, you're like a teen-age Snow. You mean Protestant Reformation, right?

M.

[Maureen]

You are really quick to shoot any and all anwsers down, and very slow to understand...

That was just an observation....

I noticed that before... but it is more relevent now!

Desire, you are an odd duck sometimes. You are upset with Joshua disagreeing with your belief that baptism is a saving ordinance, is that it? You shouldn't take it so personally. Discussion is all about sharing our opinions and beliefs and trying to understand why others see things differently. It can be interesting and enlightening if you see the good in it.

M.

[prisonchaplain]

PC, so you don't believe that you need to be baptized as a demonstration of your obedience to the commandment in order to be welcomed to the Lord.

Obeying the Lord in water baptism should be one of the first decisions a new convert makes. The convert is both saved and growing in salvation. Water baptism is an early step in that growth process--or it should be. At the same time, I converted at the age of 10. My parents were not church-goers, but had presented me for infant baptism in a Lutheran church (to appease grandma). As a 10 year old, I was torn between my desire to obey the Lord in believer's baptism by immersion, and my desire to "honor my mother and father." At 16 my dad approached me and said he would be proud to witness my baptize, if I desired to do so. And I did!

Would I have been welcomed into the kingdom of heaven, had I met an untimely death between my conversion and my water baptism? My church's stance (and I agree) is yes.

I am sure you have read our Articles of Faith and the fourth that says "We believe the principles and ordinances of the gospel to be Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, Repentance, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands."

An interesting note is that the United Pentecostal Church also believes that true salvation requires repentence, baptism in water, and the baptism in the Holy Ghost (with speaking in tongues, as the Spirit gives utterance).

We call this view of salvation SACRAMENTALISM--the idea that grace is find, not merely in repentance, but in the sacraments of the church.

Someone has probably told you by now that we as LDS believe that all are saved due to the sacrifice and ressurection of Jesus Christ. Saved from being dead forever and the ability to have our sins forgiven by accepting Christ as our Savior. Main difference is that we believe actions are required of us to show our acceptance of Christ's offering and not just words. Conversion is of the spirit and the heart not words from our mouth.

Ultimately, we're probably closer than seems. Christians from Armenian traditions (Assemblies of God, Methodists, Wesleyans, etc) believe it is possible to lose salvation, and that we must "guard our hearts." So, the difference I see, is that non-LDS Christians start with the assumption of salvation, and are careful not to lose it. LDS seem more concerned with getting and keeping as a continuous labor until this life ends.

[JoshuaFKon]

<div class='quotemain'>

All the revivals that have taken place, the prodestent refromation, the Great Awakening, the Second Great Awakening...

JoshuaK, every so often you have these quirky slip ups, you're like a teen-age Snow. You mean Protestant Reformation, right?

M.

Sorry, like I said....spelling...not my strong suit!

Josh B)

[Princess3dward]

Desire, you are an odd duck sometimes. You are upset with Joshua disagreeing with your belief that baptism is a saving ordinance, is that it? You shouldn't take it so personally. Discussion is all about sharing our opinions and beliefs and trying to understand why others see things differently. It can be interesting and enlightening if you see the good in it.

M.

I think I like being an odd duck..

I should change my name to that... but I bet it is already in use.

[Dr T]

Maureen,

You just keep scoring points in my book!