What Do You Think Of My Beliefs About: The Bible?

[prisonchaplain]

PrisonCHAP

Just read through the rest, read some last night too.....

My first question to you is do you feel Jesus Christ is God the Son?

Yes.

What is it that you are really wanting to teach your students?

In the class I taught two years ago we compared the Articles of Faith (LDS) with the Fundamental Truths (A/G), so that we might better understand both sets of teachings, and how the compare/contrast.

What are the age ranges?

Most are late 30s through mid-60s

How are you able to maintain your own belief at the same time as mizing other beliefs into it? That has been so hard for me in studying other faiths, denominations and religions. Always looking for more tools to be objective as you are trying to be....... This has been a great read for me. Thanks

Part of my drive stems from my experience as a chaplain. We are champions of our own faiths, while we accommodate the practices of others. In order to do both well, I must understand the other as they see themselves. Listening is huge. I've found that if I am grounded in my own beliefs (understand them well), there is much less need to become defensive and angry when encountering contrasting viewpoints.

[bert10]

Hi Prison Chaplain and all who shall read this.

Perhaps you should use the words of Jesus.

John 5:39 - [[YOu]] Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

The Scriptures testify of Jesus who is the Spirit of Truth and of Life of men. The bible always testified of Christ....It also point to the way to GOD which is by the Spirit of Truth. Do not be confused and deceived by the teachings of the Christians....Who revere and look to the bible instead of GOD. For I tell you the truth....the BIBLE is not GOD neither can one find GOD in the bible nor can anyone find Eternal Life in it.

Peace be unto you

bert10

I'm preparing to teach a Sunday School class (adults) that will first focus on my own church's teachings about fundamental doctrines. After the two-week "Crash Course on the Fundamentals," we're going to explore how other churches view our doctrines. The first group we'll compare with is the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints. Fear not, as the main part of the curriculum, I'll use Mormon.org, and perhaps secondarily, FAIR and FARMS. However, there may be some interesting thoughts and impressions you have as well.

While I doubt my class will be converting en masse to the COJCLDS, I've already stated that our goal is more to better understand what we believe in contrast to other groups, rather than to debunk or "bash" anyone else.

To me, it's like visiting another country for several months, and then returning home. You see yourself and your community in ways you never have! (Returning Missionaries should be able to shout up an AMEN! on that one. )

So, here we go. Here is the official condensed version of the doctrine of the Scriptures, as published by the General Council of the Assemblies of God.

We believe . . . The Scriptures are inspired by God and declare His design and plan for mankind.

[prisonchaplain]

Bert, I think I understand your key point and agree. However, I'd suggest to you that most Christians use the Bible (God's words) to look to God. The ones who err, do so by attempting to wrest the scriptures to defend their preconceived notions.

[bert10]

Hi prisonchaplain...that is not what I am getting in my dealings with Christians. I have yet to find even one Christian teaching any part of the hidden manna [book of Revelations]. As far as I know....their attitude is ...if it is not in the bible then it cannot exist nor be true.

If you want examples of this just go on CARM and check it out for yourself.

Also the bible is not necessarily God's words...they are the prophets words second - third forth hands etc. None of it is based on the original documents. Also Jesus did not write it either. A lot of the stuff that is in the bible are the interpretations of visions, feelings and dreams. Prophets were not dictating machines where God gave them to write word for word. In some cases it was so. But not always. Many of them wrote by URIM AND THUMMIM.

God's WORD. Is revelations from the WORD Himself. The heavenly manna that men shall eat and not die.... is what comes from heaven not from the pen of the prophets. Everything that is written in the bible in order to be true for any individual....must be confirmed by the Spirit. There comes a point for an individual....where we do not need that apostles and prophets write to us....

1 Thessalonians 4:9 - But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

It is written in the prophets.

John 6:45 - It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Let me know what you think.

Peace be unto you

bert10

Bert, I think I understand your key point and agree. However, I'd suggest to you that most Christians use the Bible (God's words) to look to God. The ones who err, do so by attempting to wrest the scriptures to defend their preconceived notions.

[prisonchaplain]

Hi prisonchaplain...that is not what I am getting in my dealings with Christians. I have yet to find even one Christian teaching any part of the hidden manna [book of Revelations].

You mean to say you've never encountered Christian teaching on the Book of Revelation (no-s, btw )??? How bizarre is that? I taught a class on Revelation that went nearly 3 years. We focused on Jesus, since that is WHO was being revealed.

As far as I know....their attitude is ...if it is not in the bible then it cannot exist nor be true. If you want examples of this just go on CARM and check it out for yourself.

I'm familiar with CARM. Since you mentioned them, perhaps what you are alluding to is extra-biblical prophecies? If so, you are correct that there are very few Christians, outside of your church, that recognize modern day Prophets, capable of adding to Scripture.

Also the bible is not necessarily God's words...they are the prophets words second - third forth hands etc. None of it is based on the original documents. Also Jesus did not write it either. A lot of the stuff that is in the bible are the interpretations of visions, feelings and dreams. Prophets were not dictating machines where God gave them to write word for word. In some cases it was so. But not always. Many of them wrote by URIM AND THUMMIM.

I suppose your thrust is a corrective to the perceived over-emphasis of Christian evangelicals and fundamentalists on the Bible. On the other hand, it remains disconcerting to me that some LDS almost seem to demean the Bible, which 1st Timothy claims is indeed given by inspiration of God. Remember too that Protestants, Catholics and LDS all share the Bible as holy canon.

God's WORD. Is revelations from the WORD Himself. The heavenly manna that men shall eat and not die.... is what comes from heaven not from the pen of the prophets. Everything that is written in the bible in order to be true for any individual....must be confirmed by the Spirit. There comes a point for an individual....where we do not need that apostles and prophets write to us....

1 Thessalonians 4:9 - But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

OK, this is new to me. You must be much braver than me. First, I accept the entire Bible as God's word...holy canon, written and compiled under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, profitable for correction, rebuke, etc. I do not imagine that, this side of glory, I shall come to the place of not needing the written word of God. The reference above is meant to show that Paul's writing should be a reminder, not brand new instruction. It's not meant to say that when we mature we'll no longer need Scripture.

I

[Shell72]

I agree with Prison C. on the interpretation of Thess.

The NIV version reads: "Now about brotherly love we do not need to write to you, for you yourselves have been taught by God to love each other. 10And in fact, you do love all the brothers throughout Macedonia. Yet we urge you, brothers, to do so more and more. "

If you read several different translations, you will see that the meaning is the same, the only translation that, if you were looking, could be interpreted to mean to something else is the KJV.

I highly doubt that anywhere in the Bible does it say that God's people should not look to His word in the Bible for direction. To step away from the Bible is very dangerous ground I believe......

[bert10]

Hi Prison-chaplain....You mean to say you've never encountered Christian teaching on the Book of Revelation (no-s, btw )??? How bizarre is that? I taught a class on Revelation that went nearly 3 years. We focused on Jesus, since that is WHO was being revealed.

Oh I have heard lots of Christians teaching on the Book of Revelations....that is not what I meant. I was speaking of this promise given by Christ to them who overcome the world.....[The White Stone and New Name is below].

Revelation 2:17 - He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

In my previous post....I gave out some of the teachings concerning being taught of GOD versus being taught of men. Whether that teacher is a prophet or not....it is still trusting in the arms of the flesh. Jesus taught His Apostles until they too could be taught by the FAther. Peter was the first one to hear the Father in his heart....on the day that he answered the question of Jesus...on whom they thought He was. Only Peter on that day answered correctly. And this is what Jesus said concerning Peter's answer....

Matthew 16:17 - And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

It was then at this time...Jesus pronounced those famous words..... Concerning the Rock [corner stone which is REVELATIONS from the HEAVENS] that every builder of churches shall reject. Yes the gates of hell [Illusions, deceptions, lies, forces, principalities rulers of darkness etc] cannot prevail against

Matthew 16:18 - And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

And also if Christians interpreted the prophecies in the book of revelations correctly....then the Second Coming would not be like a thief in the night. It would not come to pass as Jesus said that should...that it would be Like in the days of the flood where men married and gave in married and only a few were saved.

Only the Elect of GOD shall be prepared. And the Elect of GOD are they who are taught of GOD. Everyone is interpreting the bible prophecies according to their wisdom and knowledge. That is why the majority of men...yes even Christians shall not be prepared. For it is written...that prophecies are not of any private interpretation. [2Peter 1:20]

As the angel revealed it ....The Lord shall come in the same manner as He ascended.

Acts 1:11 - Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Only few souls from the entire nation of the Jews saw Jesus ascend in heaven. And it shall be like this when he comes. And He shall come in like manner as He ascended.

Truly Jesus said only a few would be on the Straight way...meaning "One of a city two of a family...[Jeremiah]

There is more but the post would be too long. Suffice it to say...that there are some prophecies that have already occurred and people shall be waiting for them to occur when Jesus come. They shall not believe it at first that Jesus has come. Many shall say to the Lord...

Zechariah 13:6 - And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

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"I'm familiar with CARM. Since you mentioned them, perhaps what you are alluding to is extra-biblical prophecies? If so, you are correct that there are very few Christians, outside of your church, that recognize modern day Prophets, capable of adding to Scripture."

It is much more than that.....For in this latter days...which is also called the "Times of the REstitution of all things. The restitutuion of all things includes many lost doctrines and truths. Or else it would not be called the times of the restitution of all things. [Acts 3:21]

For some...this bible verse shall be true....but it shall be for all one day...the tribulations has also a purpose [one of many] to remove those who have prevented the Sons and Daughters of GOD to established the kingdom of GOD on the earth. And also men who do not hear GOD in their heart shall be forbidden to teach others on the scriptures. Once the "dammers of the rivers of the 'Living Waters' have been removed...this prophecy shall be true for everyone.

Hebrews 8:11 - And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

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"I suppose your thrust is a corrective to the perceived over-emphasis of Christian evangelicals and fundamentalists on the Bible. On the other hand, it remains disconcerting to me that some LDS almost seem to demean the Bible, which 1st Timothy claims is indeed given by inspiration of God. Remember too that Protestants, Catholics and LDS all share the Bible as holy canon".

One must give the bible to correct respect and viewpoint. The Jews taught that they could find GOD and ETERNAL LIFE in their scriptures...so they rejected the Fountain of Living Waters...because they would look only to their scriptures. HOLY means to be WHOLE. And any persons who truly makes a study of the bible..... knows that the bible is not WHole. That it contains errors even gross errors and that over 93% of the references to documents, epistles, books and sayings that is quoted in the bible itself are simply missing. Men are left to struggle into the darkness and have to make up creeds to fill in the gaps. For example...which Christian can answer me this?

1 Corinthians 11:10 - For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

Where does this come from and what is the relationship of Woman Long hair to the Angels?

Had the bible being whole [Holy]...it would have said so. It enlightens Genesis - And women would have understood better their roles and powers in relation to men. That is just one example out of many.

No documents not even the bible should be read relying on our own wisdom and knowledge.

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"OK, this is new to me. You must be much braver than me. First, I accept the entire Bible as God's word...holy canon, written and compiled under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, profitable for correction, rebuke, etc. I do not imagine that, this side of glory, I shall come to the place of not needing the written word of God. The reference above is meant to show that Paul's writing should be a reminder, not brand new instruction. It's not meant to say that when we mature we'll no longer need Scripture."

It is hard to imagine isn't it. That men shall walk by revelations instead of by creeds and the teachings of other men. And when men shall need to know something from the past, present, future even the mysteries of GOD they shall be shown by URIM which is the WHITE STONE [white crystal]. I can tell you right now that those who laughed and derided J. Smith saying in their ignorance that he had a peep stone shall have gone to their grave in this state...and at resurrection shall not receive a white stone and a new name. These things are PROMISED only to them who have overcome.

You say you have taught on the BOOK of REVELATIONS....have you ever taught this verse below in its full meaning? The promises in Revelations 2:17 are for now. Abram received a new name [Abraham]...so did Jacob [israel] and many others throughout the generations. The URIM was considered very sacred and these men were forbidden from writing on it or claiming that they had one. But we are in the times of the restitution of all things...and I can make these things known to men so that they shall not have any more excuses when they are brought before judgment. The Tribulations cannot come into full force until men reject the fullness of the gospel.

Revelation 2:17 - He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Peace be unto you

bert10

[prisonchaplain]

Bert has given me a truck load...but it is interesting and worthy material. So, to those who may think "off topic," I'd suggest patience. This trail Bert is on is related to our overall view of the Bible. I will have to engage this last post (#32), a little later, however. So again...patience.

[prisonchaplain]

Oh I have heard lots of Christians teaching on the Book of Revelations....

There's no S. It's the Book of Revelation--the revelation of Jesus Christ.

that is not what I meant. I was speaking of this promise given by Christ to them who overcome the world.....[The White Stone and New Name is below].

The promise was both immediate (to that church), and for us. The white stone likely indicates an invitation to the Wedding Supper of the Lamb, as it was common for invitations to formal gatherings to be sent on white stone. The New Name could be along the line of new names given to great OT leaders (Jacob becomes Israel, Abram becomes Abraham), or it could be that He is giving us his name--the name of Jesus--with the power to heal, to forgive, to bring deliverance.

In my previous post....I gave out some of the teachings concerning being taught of GOD versus being taught of men. Whether that teacher is a prophet or not....it is still trusting in the arms of the flesh. Jesus taught His Apostles until they too could be taught by the FAther. Peter was the first one to hear the Father in his heart....on the day that he answered the question of Jesus...on whom they thought He was. Only Peter on that day answered correctly. And this is what Jesus said concerning Peter's answer....

I do not question that we can hear directly from the Father, through his angels. On the other hand, my reading of the New Testament--especially that some would be given the gift of teacher--informs me that I will always humble myself before those anointed with leadership and instruction.

And also if Christians interpreted the prophecies in the book of revelations correctly....then the Second Coming would not be like a thief in the night. It would not come to pass as Jesus said that should...that it would be Like in the days of the flood where men married and gave in married and only a few were saved.

Only the Elect of GOD shall be prepared. And the Elect of GOD are they who are taught of GOD. Everyone is interpreting the bible prophecies according to their wisdom and knowledge. That is why the majority of men...yes even Christians shall not be prepared. For it is written...that prophecies are not of any private interpretation. [2Peter 1:20]

Christians will be ready because we believe in the imminent return of our LORD. We may not know the day or hour...but we know his coming is soon, and that is our Blessed Hope.

Only few souls from the entire nation of the Jews saw Jesus ascend in heaven. And it shall be like this when he comes. And He shall come in like manner as He ascended.

Truly Jesus said only a few would be on the Straight way...meaning "One of a city two of a family...[Jeremiah]

Every eye shall see, every ear hear...every knee shall bow and declare that Jesus Christ is LORD. It's true that his coming shall be like his leaving...sudden, without warning, via the sky. But, prophecy is also clear that his return will not be secret, or that only a few spiritually elite will witness it. However, the unredeemed will welcome it with fear and trembling, not joy and relief.

It is much more than that.....For in this latter days...which is also called the "Times of the REstitution of all things. The restitutuion of all things includes many lost doctrines and truths. Or else it would not be called the times of the restitution of all things. [Acts 3:21]

I've always seen that as the restitution (reconciliation) of the lovers/followers of God with their Creator, and the eternal kingdom. To suggest that the Acts verse implies a coming apostasy and a need for restoration is to accuse Luke (the writer of Acts) of a very extreme form of cryptic writing.

One must give the bible to correct respect and viewpoint. The Jews taught that they could find GOD and ETERNAL LIFE in their scriptures...so they rejected the Fountain of Living Waters...because they would look only to their scriptures. HOLY means to be WHOLE.

I disagree here on both counts. The Jewish leaders COULD have found Jesus prophesied in the Scriptures, be refused to see the truth before them. Further more, "holy" means set apart, clean, worthy--not necessarily completed or finished.

And any persons who truly makes a study of the bible..... knows that the bible is not WHole. That it contains errors even gross errors and that over 93% of the references to documents, epistles, books and sayings that is quoted in the bible itself are simply missing. Men are left to struggle into the darkness and have to make up creeds to fill in the gaps.

This simply is not true. Indeed most Christians believe the Bible is the whole of what God has given us in written form. There are questions unanswered, perhaps...but it is not in gross error, and it is not incomplete. You start with a presupposition, and then insist it is the only conclusion.

No documents not even the bible should be read relying on our own wisdom and knowledge.

I'd go further and say, especially not the Bible. It is inspired by the Holy Spirit, and so we should always pray for discernment and understanding from the Holy Spirit, when we read it.

It is hard to imagine isn't it. That men shall walk by revelations instead of by creeds and the teachings of other men. And when men shall need to know something from the past, present, future even the mysteries of GOD they shall be shown by URIM which is the WHITE STONE [white crystal]. I can tell you right now that those who laughed and derided J. Smith saying in their ignorance that he had a peep stone shall have gone to their grave in this state...and at resurrection shall not receive a white stone and a new name. These things are PROMISED only to them who have overcome.

As I know, the word of God will never pass away--and the Bible is the word of God.

[Ashes]

Colossians 1

1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,

2To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

4Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,

5For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

6Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

7As ye also learned of Epaphras our dear fellowservant, who is for you a faithful minister of Christ;

8Who also declared unto us your love in the Spirit.

9For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

10That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

11Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

21And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

23If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

24Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

25Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

28Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

29Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Colossians 2

1For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh;

2That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

3In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

4And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.

5For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

6As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

7Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power

[bert10]

There's no S. It's the Book of Revelation--the revelation of Jesus Christ.

You are right - Today's bible it is called the Book of Revelation. However, it felt that I should add an "S" at the end....so I did -. I Also I had forgotten that it once was called Apocalypse.

So, I did some research a few minutes ago and this is what I came up with.

""revelation c.1303, "disclosure of information to man by a divine or supernatural agency," from O.Fr. revelacion, from L. revelationem (nom. revelatio), from revelatus, pp. of revelare (see reveal). General meaning "disclosure of facts" is attested from c.1375; meaning "striking disclosure" is from 1862. As the name of the last book of the New Testament (Revelation of St. John), it is first attested c.1400 (see apocalypse); as simplyRevelations, it is first recorded 1691.""P/s It was called Revelations by Wycliff

Revelations...Revelation...and Acapolypse are all correct names to describes the Revelations from John.

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"The promise was both immediate (to that church), and for us. The white stone likely indicates an invitation to the Wedding Supper of the Lamb, as it was common for invitations to formal gatherings to be sent on white stone. The New Name could be along the line of new names given to great OT leaders (Jacob becomes Israel, Abram becomes Abraham), or it could be that He is giving us his name--the name of Jesus--with the power to heal, to forgive, to bring deliverance."

The white Stone is a Urim and Thummim. It means Lights and Perfection. I just call it a URIM because it feels that I should do so.

The most important thing about the URIM is that it allows a man to view or see as God sees. Since they are things forbidden for men to see and thereby remain on the earth....this sacred object is only given to them who have overcome the world.

The New Name is also given by Revelation thru the Urim. And only this person shall know it because it is a Revelation directly from the FATHER.

NAME = NATURE

The New Name is given when a Nature or a mission etc changes. For example Lucifer means bearer of truths. This does not apply anymore to the devil who has become a bearer of lies. So his new name is Satan.

Abram...means Father or High Father....After his test of faith and received the promises of God concerning being the Father of Multitudes...So God renamed Abram as Abraham. His primary mission on the earth is to become a Father of Multitudes. That is whey in the OT Abraham was not allowed to enter into Salem and live with Melchizedek and later on be translated with these guys. He received mighty blessings at the hands of Melchizedek paid his tithing and then went on his way.

Abraham as it is written in Hebrews 11 never ceased to consider himself anything more than as a pilgrim on this earth. Never ceased to look for a heavenly country and the city whose maker and founder is God.

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"I do not question that we can hear directly from the Father, through his angels. On the other hand, my reading of the New Testament--especially that some would be given the gift of teacher--informs me that I will always humble myself before those anointed with leadership and instruction."

The seers, the prophets, the teachers are for the blind and deaf spiritually. They who hear and learn from the FATHER have no need of these. For they are taught of GOD Himself.

John 6:45 - It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

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"Christians will be ready because we believe in the imminent return of our LORD. We may not know the day or hour...but we know his coming is soon, and that is our Blessed Hope".

Only the Elect of GOD shall not be deceived. It is not possible to deceive the Elect of GOD because they hear the voice of the Shepherd in their heart. The is a term used by the Lord to show how much the people in the last days shall be deceived by Satan.

Matthew 24:24 - For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Harden hearts prevent men from hearing God in their hearts. To hear the Father in one's heart is the Last and Everlasting Covenant of the FATHER.

Hebrews 3:7 - Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

Hebrews 3:8 - Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

Hebrews 3:15 - While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

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"Every eye shall see, every ear hear...every knee shall bow and declare that Jesus Christ is LORD. It's true that his coming shall be like his leaving...sudden, without warning, via the sky. But, prophecy is also clear that his return will not be secret, or that only a few spiritually elite will witness it. However, the unredeemed will welcome it with fear and trembling, not joy and relief".

Here is in part how it is going to be done "every knee shall bend".....The Lord will command that all men keep the feast of the tabernacles...whether they be Jewish, Catholics, Muslims, Hindus, bouddists, Protestants. And they who refuse to believe that Christ has come and do not observe this feast shall suffer the plagues of Egypt until they do comply.

Zechariah 14:16 - And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Zechariah 14:17 - And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of [all] the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

Zechariah 14:18 - And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Zechariah 14:19 - This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

We are in the times of the restitution of all things and it shall continue on in the millennium. And the feasts and the ancient worship shall again be on the earth.

------------------------------------------------------

"I've always seen that as the restitution (reconciliation) of the lovers/followers of God with their Creator, and the eternal kingdom. To suggest that the Acts verse implies a coming apostasy and a need for restoration is to accuse Luke (the writer of Acts) of a very extreme form of cryptic writing".

The falling away has occurred...the fruits are there for all to see. We the renaissance began only after the period the historians called the Dark Ages were over. Kind of Ironic...don't you think?

Anyway to continue....on the fruits of Israel when they apostasized...were wars, economic problems, plagues, droughts, fires etc. And if after all they they did not repent...mass extermination and exile.

We are now reaping the wraths who are also warnings at this time. If any people lived the gospel of Jesus Christ there would not be 50% percent divorce rate before their 13th anniversary.

--------------------------------------------------

"I disagree here on both counts. The Jewish leaders COULD have found Jesus prophesied in the Scriptures, be refused to see the truth before them. Further more, "holy" means set apart, clean, worthy--not necessarily completed or finished."

Being Whole means Holy/Righteous. For Jesus said that he came not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance. The Setting apart thing...is done by ordination of the laying on of hands.

Matthew 9:12 - But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

In truth ...they who be whole Spiritually do not doctors of the laws.

-------------------------------------------------------

"This simply is not true. Indeed most Christians believe the Bible is the whole of what God has given us in written form. There are questions unanswered, perhaps...but it is not in gross error, and it is not incomplete. You start with a presupposition, and then insist it is the only conclusion.""

Not a presumption....just a few examples...

1. God creates animals and then man - Gen 1:25-26 God creates man and then the animals - Gen 2:18-19

2. Arpachshad's son was Shelah - Gen 11:12 Arpachshad's grandson was Shelah - Luke 3:35-36

3. Noah takes 7 pairs of each type of animal onto the ark - Gen 7:2-3 Noah takes one pair of animal onto the ark - Gen 6:19

This is a list approximate of the missing books Here are the examples of all of the known books that are missing from the Bible, books that are mentioned in the Bible or other known canons of

scripture:

Mentioned but Missing From the Old Testament Reference

1. Book of the Covenant Exodus 24:4, 7

2. Book of the Wars Numbers 21:14

3. Book of Jasher Joshua 10:13

2 Samuel 1:18

4. Book of Statutes 1 Samuel 10:25

5. Book of the Acts of Solomon 1 Kings 11:41

6. Book of Nathan 1 Chronicles 29:29

2 Chronicles 9:29

7. Book of Gad (Same as #6)

8. Prophecy of Ahijah 2 chronicles 9:29;

2:15; 13:22

9. Visions of Iddo (Same as #8)

10. Book of Shemaiah 2 chronicles 12:15

11. Book of Jehu 2 Chronicles 20:34

12. Acts of Uzziah, Written by Isaiah 2 Chronicles 26:22

13. Sayings of the Seers 2 Chronicles 33:19

14. Prophecies of Enoch Jude 14

15. Matthews' mention of Nazareth as Matthew 2:23

the abode of Jesus, "He shall be

called a Nazarene." This is not

found in the Old Testament

writings.

Missing New Testament Writings

Mentioned but Missing

16. Missing Epistle of Paul 1 Corinthians 5:9

17. 2nd Missing Epistle of Paul Ephesians 3:3-4

18. 3rd Missing Epistle of Paul Colossians 4:16

19. Missing Epistle of Jude Jude 3

There is more I cease to stop here.

------------------------------------------------

"I'd go further and say, especially not the Bible. It is inspired by the Holy Spirit, and so we should always pray for discernment and understanding from the Holy Spirit, when we read it."

What came out from the pen and mouths of the prophets is one thing. Though the wicked were allowed to remove the most sacred parts of it...God did not allow them to utterly corrupt the whole bible. The answer that Jeremiah gave to them who said that they were wise and the law of the Lord with us - is also the answer that I give. - The pen of the scribes [wicked] has made the law in vain.

Jeremiah 8:8 How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.

------------------------------------------------------------

"As I know, the word of God will never pass away--and the Bible is the word of God".

I also believe this...the WORDS of GOD shall never pass away...However, there is no guarantee that you have all of them in the bible and that they are reported correctly.

The Lord is Spirit and must be worshiped in Spirit by the power of the Spirit.

And this is how I understand the gospel. By the Spirit of God. Which shall be way different than how you understand it.

There is one thing I have to admit.....You are the first Christian that has understood that the posts that I write were relevant to the topic. In most boards they all say that I am off topic. These do not see that is practically impossible to speak of only one thing...and not touch on others as well.

Peace be unto you

bert10

[Ashes]

PC PC PC PC PC ...............U there?

Have you heard of a molecule caled Laminin?

It is a self adhesion cell within us..............You HAVE to study it and now......take a look at a picture of it.....Of it's structure............

[prisonchaplain]

Bert's been busy, and Ashes is one cryptic individual! :-) To Bert, I say simply that you have many interesting opinions, and seem to have read and learned some unique perspectives. I'm not certain that all of your conclusions are in line with mine...but we share a hunger for the meat of God's truths...and that is beautiful.

Two touch on just two of Bert's points: Despite the etymology of the Book of Revelation, it is properly known in English without the S, and, imho, it is a single, powerful revelation of Jesus, not multiple revelations of future times. As for the Bible, even if I were to accept the canonical status of the Sacred Works, I'd still hesitate to say the Bible was missing many of the documents you detailed. God didn't want/need them to be included, or they would have been. IMHO, some LDS do a disservice to the movement when they attempt to build up the value of the Triple by casting doubts upon the Bible. If the Triple is the Word of God, then it can stand alone.

Ashes, forgive my ignorance, but you'll have to translate your last post. I don't get it. Is it suppose to be funny?

[Guest Xzain]

As for the Bible, even if I were to accept the canonical status of the Sacred Works, I'd still hesitate to say the Bible was missing many of the documents you detailed. God didn't want/need them to be included, or they would have been. IMHO, some LDS do a disservice to the movement when they attempt to build up the value of the Triple by casting doubts upon the Bible. If the Triple is the Word of God, then it can stand alone.

While I wholeheartedly agree with you about the disservice LDS do to our religion when we tear down the Bible, I do not believe bert10 is doing so here. To assume the canon of the Bible is not the complete inspired works of the past prophets is not to say that the current books of the Bible are not themselves inspired. Indeed, I have not met a single (informed) member of the LDS community who believes the Bible is inferior to the works in the Triple Combination. In addition to that, I personally believe more canonized scripture will be revealed in my own lifetime (I use 'my' lifetime here because I'm 20 and do not know the age of anyone else here, but I'm sure the term 'our' would fit just as well)!

If one believes that the Bible is missing some important inspired works of the prophets, all it means is that one cannot come to a full knowledge of God's dealings with man, nor a full knowledge of His true doctrine, by the Bible alone. I believe the view that one can do so comes from the original Protestant reformers who used the idea of sola scriptura to break away from the multitude of unbiblical and (in their eyes) ungodly traditions the Catholic church had erected over time. However, one cannot find support for sola scriptura within the pages of the Bible itself, therefore making the very idea of sola scriptura, at best, the sincere efforts of man to come to know God's word.

On another note- we do not believe the Triple Combination can stand on its own. The stated purpose of the Book of Mormon and sundry scripture is to 'grow together' with the Bible to confound false doctrine. However, all four books of scripture must be interpereted correctly, by divine authority, to be accurate. Indeed, we see many examples of 'Mormon Protestantism' where they accept most (or all) of the Triple Combination, yet intereperet it differently than the LDS do because of a lack of prophetic authority.

Ashes, forgive my ignorance, but you'll have to translate your last post. I don't get it. Is it suppose to be funny?

I do believe she was attempting to ease perceived tension by sending all on a quest for an interesting picture. Observe, the Structure of laminin.

[prisonchaplain]

While I wholeheartedly agree with you about the disservice LDS do to our religion when we tear down the Bible, I do not believe bert10 is doing so here. To assume the canon of the Bible is not the complete inspired works of the past prophets is not to say that the current books of the Bible are not themselves inspired.

Perhaps I read Bert's post wrong. However, he seemed to suggest that specific documents (Paul's well-known letter, reference, but never included--indeed never recovered--is but one of his numerous examples) belonged in the Bible, but went missing, and therefore leave it with "holes."

Indeed, I have not met a single (informed) member of the LDS community who believes the Bible is inferior to the works in the Triple Combination.

Perhaps not directly. But when I hear stories of corrupt councils, bitterly divided, politically motivated, who supposedly conducted the compilation of the Bible under very uninspired conditions, I've got to wonder what the point is of such a negative perspective.

If one believes that the Bible is missing some important inspired works of the prophets, all it means is that one cannot come to a full knowledge of God's dealings with man, nor a full knowledge of His true doctrine, by the Bible alone. I believe the view that one can do so comes from the original Protestant reformers who used the idea of sola scriptura to break away from the multitude of unbiblical and (in their eyes) ungodly traditions the Catholic church had erected over time. However, one cannot find support for sola scriptura within the pages of the Bible itself, therefore making the very idea of sola scriptura, at best, the sincere efforts of man to come to know God's word.

To say that there is more to be revealed, in addition to, and in unity with, the Bible is one matter. When some argue that the Bible "has holes," is missing material that God intended to be there, etc., that is a different approach, imho--one that appears to question God's ability to protect his word.

On another note- we do not believe the Triple Combination can stand on its own. The stated purpose of the Book of Mormon and sundry scripture is to 'grow together' with the Bible to confound false doctrine. However, all four books of scripture must be interpereted correctly, by divine authority, to be accurate. Indeed, we see many examples of 'Mormon Protestantism' where they accept most (or all) of the Triple Combination, yet intereperet it differently than the LDS do because of a lack of prophetic authority.

I simply meant that the source, inspiration, and quality of those works should be manifest without a need to compete with the Bible.

BTW, I respect your approach, and appreciated Bert's informative comments as well. My response was more to warn against a line of discussion that I sometimes see. It's a fine line between questioning why certain writings are referenced, but never included, in Scripture, and saying that they are "missing."

I do believe she was attempting to ease perceived tension by sending all on a quest for an interesting picture. Observe, the Structure of laminin.

Such cryptic humor only works with diligent posters. Lazy ones, like myself, need the link.

[Ashes]

Imagine me calling your name running very fast and excited on something I learned today.....>So I am saying Prisonchap until I get your attention....

I am very serious on the molecule Laminin..........You need to study it and look at its structure...........It is the very thing we are ...........Tell me what it looks like when you pull it up.............

Laminin is a self adhesion molecule within our body...........Now, take a look at its structure.......Let me know what you think.

[Ashes]

Here ya go Prison Chap.................Study Lamiiin and compare it to the deity of Christ

Laminin images, Laminin pictures, and Laminin photos on Photobucket......

.A molecular biologists was so excited when he found this and compared it to the deity of Christ.................

[Guest Xzain]

Thank you, prisonchaplain, for your understanding. I also have great respect for your views and was happy to engage in what little discussion we did have. In light of your following comment:

BTW, I respect your approach, and appreciated Bert's informative comments as well. My response was more to warn against a line of discussion that I sometimes see. It's a fine line between questioning why certain writings are referenced, but never included, in Scripture, and saying that they are "missing."

I now realize your intent, and I apologize if I furthered a line of discussion that you did not want to engage in. I do believe it is worth discussing, but certainly not here if you do not wish it. I have enjoyed our discussion!

*Bows to prisonchaplain*