Do we change?

[Traveler]

...

Are we to say that in the great war in heaven over the souls of God's children, Lucifer did not tempt others? That you and I were not tempted by those who had joined him?

We knew joy and we knew sorrow. We knew temptation though I expect nothing like what we've faced here. There were at least some there who were mature adult spirits. Why not you and I as well?

We came here to get a body for without it we could not progress. Without a body we could not have children and procreate. We came here to be tested to see what we would do with these new powers. We came here to prove ourselves. To gain experience.

In the "pre-existance" there was no physical pain or physical temptation - In fact there was no physical experience at all including physical joy, excitement, pain or sorrow.

I am personally amazed at what people will do to avoid physical pain. My dentist is always surprised when I need work that I refuse to be deadened because I would rather have a few moments of pain that walk around most of the day with a half dead face.

Non-the-less I believe by my experience that there is little similarity and a great deal of difference between a physical and spiritual experience.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

However, this is what I personally disagree with. This life is a test, but I do not think it is a test in the way that an exam is a test. I think it is a test more like how weight training tests and builds, how we "test" our strength against challenges in order to make ourselves stronger. I think that this life is the time in which we experience the most change, and where the changes we experience have the most impact, when compared to pre-mortal and post-mortal life. It is the peak in our progression, the climax of the "story". Everything from our premortal life prepared us for this time, and eveything after is shaped by what we do now.

For you, what is the difference between a fork in the road and change? For a person traveling down a road and they come to a fork and they pick one path over another, is that a change? For that person it becomes a single pathway.

Change would be if a person is going down a particular pathway, decides he/she is going down the wrong pathway and returns to the fork in the road and travels that road.

If Christ wipes away the mistakes of this life through the atonement, then the part (so-to-speak) where the person realizes they went down the wrong path, makes a u-turn and then chooses the different pathway is cleared from the record as if they had made the correct choice in the fork in the road to begin with. So then that person traveled the single pathway if we look at the before and after. There was no ultimate change in the direction they were going. Also, the person who does not repent, there is no change in where that person was heading, to where they find themselves after this life is over, it was one pathway as there will be no other chance to go back to the fork in the road. They will still travel down that road, so it is not an end to their progression but it is a different road than those that repented when they were at the fork in the road to decide.

I don't think working out one's salvation is a "change". If Satan had to choose again, his pathway, he would pick the same thing, because it is in his character to choose that.

I agree that this life is not a test, like an exam in school (best metaphor I could come up with), it is more like a personality test, or a psychology screening, 'what would you do in this situation ....?' kind of test to determine if we would do what we said we would do when really placed in the situation. It is a test of integrity, not a test of a particular set of skills or talents.

Edited November 21, 2011 by Seminarysnoozer

[JudoMinja]

For you, what is the difference between a fork in the road and change? For a person traveling down a road and they come to a fork and they pick one path over another, is that a change? For that person it becomes a single pathway.

Change would be if a person is going down a particular pathway, decides he/she is going down the wrong pathway and returns to the fork in the road and travels that road.

If Christ wipes away the mistakes of this life through the atonement, then the part (so-to-speak) where the person realizes they went down the wrong path, makes a u-turn and then chooses the different pathway is cleared from the record as if they had made the correct choice in the fork in the road to begin with. So then that person traveled the single pathway if we look at the before and after. There was no ultimate change in the direction they were going. Also, the person who does not repent, there is no change in where that person was heading, to where they find themselves after this life is over, it was one pathway as there will be no other chance to go back to the fork in the road. They will still travel down that road, so it is not an end to their progression but it is a different road than those that repented when they were at the fork in the road to decide.

I don't think working out one's salvation is a "change". If Satan had to choose again, his pathway, he would pick the same thing, because it is in his character to choose that.

I agree that this life is not a test, like an exam in school (best metaphor I could come up with), it is more like a personality test, or a psychology screening, 'what would you do in this situation ....?' kind of test to determine if we would do what we said we would do when really placed in the situation. It is a test of integrity, not a test of a particular set of skills or talents.

I think we are definitely seeing "change" differently, and that is perhaps the reason for most of our discrepencies in perspective. Because from what you've described here, I think we are in agreement.

Now, in my first post I stated that I believe we both change and do not change, because I was identifying different kinds of changes. I believe we are like trees... and we cannot change from one type of tree to another. Such would be impossible. This is the individual character within us, it defines who and what we are, and it will not change. However, though a tree may not be able to alter its species, it does change very much as it grows. An oak seed and an oak tree are very different from one another, and the height and depth to which the branches and roots of individual oak trees will reach depends upon the growing conditions they are placed in. And unlike a tree, we get to choose where we will take root and therefore choose how well we will grow.

Yet there is another change that is possible that is almost as extreme as changing from an oak tree to an apple tree. This change, I think, was best described in Elder Bednar's talk on repentance. He compared it to the pickling of a cucumber. A cucumber and a pickle are very distinctly different things, and on its own a cucumber cannot become a pickle. When we go through the repentance process our character is changed just as much as a cucumber is changed into a pickle.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I think we are definitely seeing "change" differently, and that is perhaps the reason for most of our discrepencies in perspective. Because from what you've described here, I think we are in agreement.

Now, in my first post I stated that I believe we both change and do not change, because I was identifying different kinds of changes. I believe we are like trees... and we cannot change from one type of tree to another. Such would be impossible. This is the individual character within us, it defines who and what we are, and it will not change. However, though a tree may not be able to alter its species, it does change very much as it grows. An oak seed and an oak tree are very different from one another, and the height and depth to which the branches and roots of individual oak trees will reach depends upon the growing conditions they are placed in. And unlike a tree, we get to choose where we will take root and therefore choose how well we will grow.

Yet there is another change that is possible that is almost as extreme as changing from an oak tree to an apple tree. This change, I think, was best described in Elder Bednar's talk on repentance. He compared it to the pickling of a cucumber. A cucumber and a pickle are very distinctly different things, and on its own a cucumber cannot become a pickle. When we go through the repentance process our character is changed just as much as a cucumber is changed into a pickle.

I agree.

I would have a hard time understanding an idea that change is necessary for everyone though. When people take that strong of a stance, I don't see where people that die before the age of 8 or that have other diseases that limits their ability to choose make any change at all and yet they end up in the Celestial Kingdom. Change is only necessary when there is deviation from the course. And none of us deviated from the course before this life. So the deviation only revealed itself in physical form even though we didn't change who we are.

I think change would be there if we could say that if a person were placed back in the situation with the same set of circumstance and erased memory of having gone through it before, (like taking the test over again) would they pick the same things and act the same way? Or would their actions be different? If you think their actions would be different if they were to go through the same test again, without any memory of the test before, then I suppose there was change. I am of the belief though that if God ran the test on us 1000 times, no matter what the circumstances, His conclusion and therefore the results of our test of character, our true nature, would be the same, in terms of what Kingdom we enter. I don't think our character is as variable as some would say depending on circumstantial situations that are temporary testing scenarios. After God takes into account all those variables, His determination wouldn't vary.

[Justice]

Again, we change just by virtue of gaining the knowledge of good and evil, and by gaining a physical body. If you do not think this brings about a change in us, or makes us no longer innocent, then you have to disagree with the passages I quoted from Alma. But, we're not finished changing yet...

We cannot go back to the way we were before we were born physically. Look at Adam and Eve in and after the Garden as an example. We become carnal; we must be born again. We start off innocent in the pre-mortal realm. We come to earth and gain a body, and at some point gain the knowledge of good and evil. We must learn to become spiritual while in a carnal state. We do not re-learn to become innocent, we no longer can be.

We change from innocent, to carnal, to spiritual... not from innocent, to carnal, to innocent. We become something different than we were in the pre-mortal life. We change. It's called progression, and it's part of life.

As far as those who die before the age of accountability, it's a different group of spirits. They fall under the, "noble and great ones." Those spirits did not need mortality, for whatever reason. It's not comparing apples to apples.

[Justice]

How do you marry this...

So the deviation only revealed itself in physical form even though we didn't change who we are.

with this...

Alma 42: 10 Therefore, as they had become carnal, sensual, and devilish, by nature, this probationary state became a state for them to prepare; it became a preparatory state.

He goes on to say it became a time for men to repent, which ultimately means change.

[james12]

In the "pre-existance" there was no physical pain or physical temptation - In fact there was no physical experience at all including physical joy, excitement, pain or sorrow.

I am personally amazed at what people will do to avoid physical pain. My dentist is always surprised when I need work that I refuse to be deadened because I would rather have a few moments of pain that walk around most of the day with a half dead face.

Non-the-less I believe by my experience that there is little similarity and a great deal of difference between a physical and spiritual experience.

Sure there was no physical pain because we did not have physical bodies. But are you saying there was no pain, excitement, or sorrow of any sort in our first estate? If so, based on what experience or statements?

[Seminarysnoozer]

How do you marry this...

with this...

Alma 42: 10 Therefore, as they had become carnal, sensual, and devilish, by nature, this probationary state became a state for them to prepare; it became a preparatory state.

He goes on to say it became a time for men to repent, which ultimately means change.

I think one has to separate change from advancement in this discussion. Otherwise, we are talking about the same things with different words.

How much of a challenge would a game of basketball be with the hoop just three feet off the ground? Would you be able to separate who the "good" players are from those that aren't so good under those conditions? If you were to pick the top players for the team, you probably wouldn't do it be seeing how they play with hoops three feet off the ground.

Repentance applies to those who are fallen. Repentance applies to those who are put down! into a probationary state where their dual being nature includes one-half (at least, if not more than a half) sensual, carnal and thus devilish desires with which we all (except Christ) pay attention to that temporary, artificial nature causing sin. In other words, this is a chance for us to prepare ourselves to make the choice, for ourselves, where we want to be forever by way of how much we pay attention to carnal desires versus spiritual ones. That will show us and prove to us and God what type of character we are, a Celestial character, Terrestrial or Telestial by placing us into this preparatory or temporary state. We become carnal by taking on a corrupted carnal body. A resurrected body, though, is not corrupted with those carnal or devilish desires.

[annewandering]

If we dont change from how we are when we die then we are going to be one sorry group of people forever. It is my opinion only, but the world is not only a trial but like a lab test to see where we are sick. Whats the point of that if we cant then cure the spiritual illnesses we all have?

Yes we do prove our desire and faith here but we arent going to be completely cured here. None of us are yet our Father wants us to be perfect. Where are we going to become perfect if not later?

There is one group however that this does not appliy to, completely, and that is children and those grouped spiritually with children. They do not need this trial at all. They have already proven themselves and been tested. Does that mean, however that they do not have faults that need changed? We know there was only one perfect man born, Jesus, so none of those children are perfect which means they have to change as well and they cant do it here.

[Seminarysnoozer]

If we dont change from how we are when we die then we are going to be one sorry group of people forever. It is my opinion only, but the world is not only a trial but like a lab test to see where we are sick. Whats the point of that if we cant then cure the spiritual illnesses we all have?

Yes we do prove our desire and faith here but we arent going to be completely cured here. None of us are yet our Father wants us to be perfect. Where are we going to become perfect if not later?

There is one group however that this does not appliy to, completely, and that is children and those grouped spiritually with children. They do not need this trial at all. They have already proven themselves and been tested. Does that mean, however that they do not have faults that need changed? We know there was only one perfect man born, Jesus, so none of those children are perfect which means they have to change as well and they cant do it here.

I don't think the process of becoming perfect or growth or advancement is the same thing as change in the sense that we are using the word. Change would be to take one pathway and then decide to get off that path and take a different one.

If you are saying that we keep walking down a pathway after this life, as far as development goes, I don't think anyone is saying anything different from that.

[Justice]

pay attention to that temporary, artificial nature causing sin.

Here's our difference.

We gain a physical body. It comes with the ability to recognize pleasures (senses). It will recognize those whether mortal (fallen) or immortal (resurrected). These affects are only temporary as long as we change from that state. If we do not change from that state then they are permanent, because we will have our physical bodies forever.

Remember, we were innocent in the pre-mortal existence. We are no longer, and can never be again. We have gained the knowledge of good and evil and will have it forever.

If our carnal natures were but temporary, then all could gain celestial glory because all would lose their desire to sin. That desire is only lost through the atonement by repentance. That is why this is called the prepratory state, because if we do not turn from our carnal natures before we are resurrected, that nature will return when resurrected (restoration in Alma 42).

Nothing in the scripture I quoted leads me to believe the nature spoken of is temporary. It says "they had become." To me, we gained that nature because of the knowledge of good and evil. It can never be taken from us.

Edited November 28, 2011 by Justice

[Seminarysnoozer]

Here's our difference.

We gain a physical body. It comes with the ability to recognize pleasures (senses). It will recognize those whether mortal (fallen) or immortal (resurrected). These affects are only temporary as long as we change from that state. If we do not change from that state then they are permanent, because we will have our physical bodies forever.

Remember, we were innocent in the pre-mortal existence. We are no longer, and can never be again. We have gained the knowledge of good and evil and will have it forever.

If our carnal natures were but temporary, then all could gain celestial glory because all would lose their desire to sin. That desire is only lost through the atonement by repentance. That is why this is called the prepratory state, because if we do not turn from our carnal natures before we are resurrected, that nature will return when resurrected (restoration in Alma 42).

Nothing in the scripture I quoted leads me to believe the nature spoken of is temporary. It says "they had become." To me, we gained that nature because of the knowledge of good and evil. It can never be taken from us.

But what allows a person to turn from that carnal nature? Why does one do it and the other not? It is because that is what their spiritual make up tells them to do. It is because that is who they are and always will be. They are valiant and obedient by their spiritual self, their spiritual nature. The choice to repent and put off the natural man is the test and preparation that is revealed by this opportunity to experience that process so we can value the gifts given to us in the next life.

The person that puts off the natural man did not change. The spirit part of their dual being was strong enough to do so because that is who that person is, an obedient, able to recognize the spirit and having an eye single to the glory of God, kind of spirit.

If a person does not put off the natural man in this dual being, preparatory state, that is because that is who they are, a person who is not that obedient, who is not that valiant and does not have an eye single to the glory of God because that is their spiritual make up that they entered into this world with. It is revealed by the choices they make while in such an artificial, temporary state and couldn't be revealed in the premortal world because on paper, by word alone they chose the right (kept the first estate) but when it comes down to doing what they said they would do (keeping the second estate) the spiritual righteousness of that person falls short. That measure is the purpose of this life to determine (by the laws set forth by God) the appropriate level of responsibility in the next life.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Nothing in the scripture I quoted leads me to believe the nature spoken of is temporary. It says "they had become." To me, we gained that nature because of the knowledge of good and evil. It can never be taken from us.

One thing to be clear about is that the knowledge we gain in this life as it pertains to the knowledge of good and evil is experiential knowledge. We can maintain the knowledge of an experience without living the experience continuously. I would tend to say it in the reverse of what you said, we gain the knowledge because of the temporary nature. Not, we gained the nature because of the knowledge. This is why Adam and Eve's bodies had to change to give them this experience, as well as the world around them, it is not just knowledge pouring into their brain. That is what Satan made it out to be, that they would suddenly gain all that knowledge that would make them like God, that is false. It is the opportunity that we gain by this temporary state.

I know what it is like to give birth because of this "nature" that we find ourselves in, thank goodness I do not have to experience that continuously. But, it is still in my memory and is useful to have that knowledge. It makes me appreciate our children that much more.

Edited November 29, 2011 by Seminarysnoozer

[Justice]

So, if this life has no bearing on who we are or what we become, or any change to ourselves, why even come here?

[Seminarysnoozer]

So, if this life has no bearing on who we are or what we become, or any change to ourselves, why even come here?

I never said it doesn't have a bearing on who we become just that I don't think it means that we were heading in a different direction than before this life. In other words, there was no change in direction when one looks at before and after.

Change would imply a possibility of making a different set of choices if given the same situation for that person on repeat tries. I think a person would choose the same kinds of choices every time they are placed in a given set of circumstances. Sometimes the choice is "I don't care, I'll do whatever" but that would be consistent for that person. In other words, the final grade for the person would be the same if the person took the test 1000 times over, in my opinion (of course the test would be under the veil, meaning no knowledge of previous testing). If there is a change in this life, then it would be possible to change the grade, so to speak, with repeat attempts.