annewandering Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 While "the Host" does have things about that make it original, the idea of aliens enslaving humanity is hardly new. I found "The Host" just good ol' aliens-taking-over-humans with a nice twist.It was a good twist wasnt it. I liked how she gave you the alien point of view so well. While it was wrong to do what they did it was a part of them. They really did not know it was the same as destroying other species. No where did I ever get the idea they thought of themselves as destroyers. The more I think about it the more I think she was making some parallels to our behavior towards different groups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 I have never read Twilight. But I am very fond of Sister Vort, who loves Twilight, so I am therefore a Twilight fan.It's amazing how many people think it's acceptable in casual conversation to criticize certain books and those who read them. Not too different, really, from those who think it is the height of original cleverness to criticize France and/or the French. Seeing as how my mother-in-law is French, poor Sister Vort gets it from at least two directions, while I grit my teeth to keep from saying anything to those who insist on showing their superior breeding and refined tastes by lambasting Twilight and its fans and/or demonstrating their rapier wit and highly developed political sensibilities by criticizing all things French. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dravin Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 (edited) Okay criticizing those who read them being a faux pas I can understand, but the books themselves? Are you talking a certain level or type of criticism ? The latter I can understand, there are certain creative works in which liking gets a counter kneed jerk reaction, but if you are speaking in more general terms I disagree because in my book (heh) the cirtisicm of creative works is a staple of civilized conversation. For instance: Person A: I was reading Harry Potter the other day and was struck by how annoying Harry is at this stage in the story. Person B: I personally prefer the Artemis Fowl books, I find the characterization in the Harry Potter books to be flat and Harry comes across less as a teenage Hero but a narcissist. Person A: Granted he can grate but I have a teen boy and I think the characterization of his selfishness is spot on. The game of Quidditch annoys me though... Or more common: Person A: Did you see Green Lantern? I liked it. Person B: I saw it, I hated the decision to do CGI uniforms. But something like: Person A: So I saw the new Star Trek movie... Person B: Dork! I guess you're fat, virginal, and live in your mother's basement. You also probably smell funny and lack social skills! I can agree that's a lamentable trend. Edited November 22, 2011 by Dravin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annewandering Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 Is there a new Star Trek movie? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dravin Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 Is there a new Star Trek movie?Star Trek (2009) - IMDb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 Is there a new Star Trek movie?Dork! I guess you're fat, virginal, and live in your mother's basement. You also probably smell funny and lack social skills! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 Okay criticizing those who read them being a faux pas I can understand, but the books themselves? Are you talking a certain level or type of criticism ? The latter I can understand, there are certain creative works in which liking gets a counter kneed jerk reaction, but if you are speaking in more general terms I disagree because in my book (heh) the cirtisicm of creative works is a staple of civilized conversation.I'm talking about a situation like a group of friends or acquaintances sitting around chatting, and someone feels impelled to say, "I see there's a new Twilight movie out. Can you believe anyone watches that crap?" And someone else pipes up, "Yeah, really! I tried reading the first book, but it was just SOOOOOO STUPID that I couldn't make it halfway through!" And the first person will respond with something like, "They were written for preadolescent girls who haven't developed a figure or any taste in literature!" And they'll both laugh at their cleverness.Seriously, if the books are popular, then there's a reason for that: Lots of people read them. Those who criticize might do well to think about that fact before condescending to enlighten the benighted crowd with their illuminations.To be clear, I am not talking about conversations on a discussion list such as this. The rules and expectations are completely different here.Or more common:Person A: Did you see Green Lantern? I liked it.Person B: I saw it, I hated the decision to do CGI uniforms.But something like:Person A: So I saw the new Star Trek movie...Person B: Dork! I guess you're fat, virginal, and live in your mother's basement. You also probably smell funny and lack social skills!I can agree that's a lamentable trend.Something in between, actually. I have not met anyone (that I remember) who intentionally goes out of his or her way to criticize Twilight fans to their faces. It's more the expectation that everyone you're talking to naturally agrees with your negative assessment. Again, it's like saying, "When you Google 'French military victories', it asks if you really mean 'French military defeats'!" and then expecting everyone to give a hearty laugh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windseeker Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 I'm a guy and I've read all the books but have only seen the first two movies. I love classic literature, science fiction and fantasy. I'm also a big Koontz fan. Thought the Twilight series was great and well deserving of it's popularity. My wife who has never read these books did not like the first two movies. I have tried to read Harry Potter but can't get into them. I own all the movies though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backroads Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 My problem is that as something of a book snob, I WILL criticize books I don't like to the fan's faces. I don't think I'm unjustly rude (though I do admit it can be fun to be a little mouthy in written reviews) but that I'm merely giving the reasons why I didn't find it that great. They're are some mean Twilight-haters, but someone who legitimately did not like Twilight and wants to intelligently explain why usually gets lumped into the "Twilight-hater" group. I have my reasons for not being a huge Twilight fan (though I think the writing is excellent.) Haven't gotten whining about it yet, but I have had people threaten me for stating that I did not like "Hunger Games" or "Worlds of the Crystal Moon". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Connie Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 What! There are people who live in the Twilight Zone? ....Spooky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 My husband is a Twi-hard which is kinda funny because then he tells everybody I'm a Twilight fan to explain why he's lining up at midnight to see the movie... The concept of the book is great. That's why it is so popular among women and teens. The conflict of a love-triangle blown up into mega-steroid proportions is quite exhilirating and poignant. It's what makes books from Pride and Prejudice to "smut novels" sell like hotcakes. The romantic feeling that pulls on your heartstrings on a love that defies all challenges. But, it's a challenge to get over the terrible writing style. Chapter 1: I'm going to die. Chapter 2: I'm almost dead. Chapter 3: I'm dying... The 4th book is the worst. The play on why Jacob is important to Bella was just so redundant... then the war was... so anti-climactic that even my twi-hard husband wishes it was written differently. Harry Potter is a completely different level. It can be held as an example of "The Elements of a Breakthrough Novel" in a writing class. It has the amazing concept, the expansive and complicated world-buildling, excellent characterization of all major players, the parental loss conflict, a coming-of-age conflict, a threatened friendship conflict, children versus adults conflict, plus a quest, humor, betrayal, love... where the bad is not simply bad (Malfoy, Snape) and the good is not simply good (Dumbledore, James)... all written so that it builds up in a crescendo from Book 1 to Book 7 where every chapter is fresh and the pace steady. A lot of church people read the book and forgive it it's quirky style for the plain reason that Stephanie is Mormon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 Harry Potter is a completely different level. It can be held as an example of "The Elements of a Breakthrough Novel" in a writing class. It has the amazing concept, the expansive and complicated world-buildling, excellent characterization of all major players, the parental loss conflict, a coming-of-age conflict, a threatened friendship conflict, children versus adults conflict, plus a quest, humor, betrayal, love... where the bad is not simply bad (Malfoy, Snape) and the good is not simply good (Dumbledore, James)... all written so that it builds up in a crescendo from Book 1 to Book 7 where every chapter is fresh and the pace steady.The elephant in Harry Potter's living room is that it is not particularly well-written. Even to the end of the seventh book, you never quite get past the feeling that you are reading the work of an earnest and talented high school student. Please note that although I am quietly pointing out that the emperor has no clothes, I am not making an ado of his nudity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dravin Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 (edited) I'm talking about a situation like a group of friends or acquaintances sitting around chatting, and someone feels impelled to say, "I see there's a new Twilight movie out. Can you believe anyone watches that crap?" And someone else pipes up, "Yeah, really! I tried reading the first book, but it was just SOOOOOO STUPID that I couldn't make it halfway through!" And the first person will respond with something like, "They were written for preadolescent girls who haven't developed a figure or any taste in literature!" And they'll both laugh at their cleverness.I take it the key objectionable theme is the objection to the taste of the fans rather than a dislike of the creative work itself? It's elitism at it's heart. Change it to talking about people who don't like Shakespeare being a bunch of uncultured buffoons and the elitist nature of the communication becomes clear. I agree, elitism is annoying when you aren't in the 'in' group. And when you're in the in group its just astute people agreeing with you isn't it? Seriously, if the books are popular, then there's a reason for that: Lots of people read them. Those who criticize might do well to think about that fact before condescending to enlighten the benighted crowd with their illuminations.An argument from popularity Vort? I think I know you enough to suspect that's not what you meant, but rather that before a person opens their mouth to pounce on people who like something popular they should consider that since it is popular the chances someone in a group may just be one of those people is going to be higher than for an unpopular creative work. Edited November 23, 2011 by Dravin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 (edited) The elephant in Harry Potter's living room is that it is not particularly well-written.In what planet?Sure, it's not a Tolkien. But it doesn't have to be that to have real merit as literary art.Even to the end of the seventh book, you never quite get past the feeling that you are reading the work of an earnest and talented high school student. Please note that although I am quietly pointing out that the emperor has no clothes, I am not making an ado of his nudity.Maybe you're allowing the High School setting and the intended High School age audience to permeate your perception of its literary style. Edited November 23, 2011 by anatess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 In what planet?On Planet Vort, of course.Maybe you're allowing the High School setting and the intended High School age audience to permeate your perception of its literary style. I don't think so, but thanks for the thought.It is not Rowling's "style" I object to. (I might even go so far as to say that "I don't believe in style", or more precisely, "Style is a stupid thing to make an attribute of a writer. People either express themselves adequately and tell a good story, or they do not.")My biggest problem with Rowling is that she just cannot get away from deus ex machina devices in her story. Any fantasy world has to have consistent rules so you can judge what the characters' options are, what they should do or could do. But Rowling seems to make things up as she goes along: There's a problem we can't figure out how to surmount, but wait! Here is a piece of magic I never bothered to mention that solves the problem perfectly!I think a perfectly acceptable alternate ending, using Ms. Rowling's own established methodology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 I take it the key objectionable theme is the objection to the taste of the fans rather than a dislike of the creative work itself? It's elitism at it's heart. Change it to talking about people who don't like Shakespeare being a bunch of uncultured buffoons and the elitist nature of the communication becomes clear. I agree, elitism is annoying when you aren't in the 'in' group. And when you're in the in group its just astute people agreeing with you isn't it? Once again, you've bull's-eyed the issue, Dravin. That's one of the things I admire about you and seek to emulate: The ability to distill an argument to its core and then express it clearly and succinctly.An argument from popularity Vort? I think I know you enough to suspect that's not what you meant, but rather that before a person opens their mouth to pounce on people who like something popular they should consider that since it is popular the chances someone in a group may just be one of those people is going to be higher than for an unpopular creative work.Again, you are right. I never (well, rarely) argue from popularity, given how decadent and generally stinky I often find popular "art". Rather, as you say, the point is that if you're talking to a mixed group, leveling general criticisms toward popular things, especially popular things that are essentially harmless, is a recipe for giving needless offense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jayneXD Posted April 10, 2012 Report Share Posted April 10, 2012 To tell you the truth, I'm not a Twilight fan. I'm pretty neutral when it comes to Twilight. I read all the books to see what the huge fuss was about and it was okay (I would give it a rating of 7/10) not the best. I'm more of a Hunger Games and Harry Potter fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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