Did Jesus really use Wine at the last supper?


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Since mormons don´t drink alcohol, and use water instead of wine at the sacrament - i find it interesting that nowhere in any of the gospels does it explicitly say that jesus and the discipes drank wine at the last supper! I know this is not why mormons dont use wine, but still a strange coincidence that kinda supports the LDS tradition/interpretation of sacrament.

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Guest gopecon

Luke mentions the fruit of the vine in connection with the Last Supper. In addition to this, He turned water to wine at the wedding in Cana (and saved the best for last - I don't think this would have been a comment if we were talking about grape juice). I think we (as LDS) make a mistake in thinking that every counsel we have today is an eternal law. I don't think that Jesus ever got drunk, but I believe he drank wine. We have the WofW today in part because of the world being what it is: conspiring minds, etc. It is to help us and it is a test of obedience, it is not necessarily eternal law.

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Indeed, there was even the Passover tradition that went beyond the biblical teaching: by the time of the first century, every adult was obliged to have four glasses of wine during the Passover celebration. Jesus and his disciples did this in the Last Supper.6 The fact that the wine of the Passover was a symbol the Lord used for his blood and for the new covenant implicitly shows that our Lord’s view of wine was quite different from that of many modern Christians.

6 Technically, Jesus and the disciples had only three ritual cups of wine. The fourth cup, which represented the kingdom, was not drunk. Thus, when Jesus prayed in the garden, “If it is your will, take this cup from me” he was referring to the symbolism of the third cup--the cup of redemption by judgment. However, even though they had only three ritual cups, they may well have had more non-ritual wine, for this was allowed.

The Bible and Alcohol | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site

M.

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Since mormons don´t drink alcohol, and use water instead of wine at the sacrament - i find it interesting that nowhere in any of the gospels does it explicitly say that jesus and the discipes drank wine at the last supper! I know this is not why mormons dont use wine, but still a strange coincidence that kinda supports the LDS tradition/interpretation of sacrament.

26 ¶And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.

27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.

22 ¶And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.

23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.

24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.

25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.

13 And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.

14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.

15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:

16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:

18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

19 ¶And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

While I suppose in a sense it does not say, "And they drank wine." I think it's pretty clear that the reference to the Savior not drinking wine (or the fruit of the vine) until the Kingdom of God comes makes it pretty clear that that the cup he's passing around has wine in it (and that he's drank wine with them before). It'd be like me passing you a glass of water at Thanksgiving and saying "I won't drink Sprite again with you until next Thanksgiving." There are also historical contexts to take into account, I know the modern Seder includes the drinking of wine, I don't know about historically. Where is Volgadon when you need him.

Edited by Dravin
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Considering the LDS church used alcoholic wine for the sacrament until the early part of the 20th century, I think it's a safe assumption that Jesus drank wine as well. Abstinence from alcohol is a very recent development, in the grand scheme of things, and attempts to "retcon" current beliefs onto ancient times usually backfire.

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In the U.S. the alcoholism rate is 10%. DUI's and alcohol marinated crime is prolific. Me thinks that LDS do well to join with many evangelicals, pentecostals, Baptists, Salvationists (Salvation Army), and, of course, Muslims, in turning away from booze, in all its forms. WoW or not, in today's world, abstinence from alcohol even makes secular sense.

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Considering the LDS church used alcoholic wine for the sacrament until the early part of the 20th century, I think it's a safe assumption that Jesus drank wine as well. Abstinence from alcohol is a very recent development, in the grand scheme of things, and attempts to "retcon" current beliefs onto ancient times usually backfire.

So missionaries never explain to non-mormons that the bible supports their decision to not use wine?

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In the U.S. the alcoholism rate is 10%. DUI's and alcohol marinated crime is prolific. Me thinks that LDS do well to join with many evangelicals, pentecostals, Baptists, Salvationists (Salvation Army), and, of course, Muslims, in turning away from booze, in all its forms. WoW or not, in today's world, abstinence from alcohol even makes secular sense.

I don't have a source handy but it's something like 40% of all crimes are alcohol related incidents.

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I once saw a French branch get into a huge controversy over this approach to harmonize the Word of Wisdom, which is a requirement given by modern revelation, to ancient practices regarding the drinking of wine. There were some members that were unwisely trying to equate the wine of the Old and New Testament with unfermented grape juice. I'm not going into all the scriptures I used at the time to prove the point (because they are too numerous for this venue). However, keep in mind a few examples:

--Noah cursed Ham when he was drunk (Genesis 9:21).

--Ammon and King Limhi used a tribute of wine to get the Lamanite guards drunk so they could escape from bondage in Mosiah 22.

--The Lamanites tried to do the same thing to the Nephites in Alma 55.

--Bishops in the New Testament were not to be given to wine and to be models of sobriety (so evidently the wine could get them drunk!)

--Old Testament Nazarites were to shun intoxicating drinks because of their special vows (Numbers 6).

There are lots of warnings about drinking alcoholic beverages, because of the inebriating qualities they possess.

If someone tries to argue that "Jesus drank wine, why can't Mormons?" the simple answer is that it is a modern commandment. Like the Nazarites of old, who didn't drink wine, Mormons are also a people that have been set apart for a special purpose. The Word of Wisdom has nothing to do with any other dispensation. Please not the wording from Section 89--

"Behold, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you: In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation—"

Keeping the Word of Wisdom is a sign of faith in God's prophets in the latter-days. It doesn't matter what went before, whether it was the "everlasting covenant" of circumcision that God did away with or the dietary restrictions of the Mosaic law, which God did away with. In fact, the Lord says that he won't drink of the fruit of the vine again until he returns:

"Verily I say unto you, Of this ye shall bear record; for I will no more drink of the fruit of the vine with you, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God" (JST Mark 14:25).

The Lord even says that he will drink of the fruit of the vine again with Moroni, Elias, John the Baptist, Elijah, Joseph, Jacob, Isaac, Abraham, Michael, Peter, James, and John when he returns (See D&C 27:5-12).

Like circumcision, the Word of Wisdom apparently comes to an end when the next dispensation begins. It is a commandment that is uniquely for the particular dispensation in which we live today.

Don't try to argue semantics with non-believers over something so trivial as this. Don't try to rationalize that the Lord gave people commandments in olden times that are different from today. The Word of Wisdom is intended to protect the saints of the latter days that are unique to our time and which threaten our unique mission to establish Zion before the Second Coming.

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Since mormons don´t drink alcohol, and use water instead of wine at the sacrament - i find it interesting that nowhere in any of the gospels does it explicitly say that jesus and the discipes drank wine at the last supper! I know this is not why mormons dont use wine, but still a strange coincidence that kinda supports the LDS tradition/interpretation of sacrament.

Our Word of Wisdom actually permits wine drinking but conditions that to pure wine of the grape of one's own making ie alcohol free:

"That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.

6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.

7 And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies." D&C 89

ie the mormon issue is with alcohol not pure wine, and not alcohol fee beer for that matter, but with the alcohol.

Today we use water for practical reasons since it is difficult to make pure wine and store it for more than a day without fermentation starting,

(although it would make everyone in church more friendly every Sunday if the youth prepared the sacrament wine during Mutual thursday night and served it Sunday morning :D )

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Guest gopecon

So missionaries never explain to non-mormons that the bible supports their decision to not use wine?

They shouldn't, but that does not mean it never happens. The Bible has numerous statement condemning drunkenness, but not general consumption of alcohol. The Word of Wisdom is a modern revelation to a prophet of God. It does not need to have biblical support to be valid.
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The Lord even says that he will drink of the fruit of the vine again with Moroni, Elias, John the Baptist, Elijah, Joseph, Jacob, Isaac, Abraham, Michael, Peter, James, and John when he returns (See D&C 27:5-12).

Like circumcision, the Word of Wisdom apparently comes to an end when the next dispensation begins. It is a commandment that is uniquely for the particular dispensation in which we live today.

Well, the Lord could be referring to pure wine which is alcohol free for the first 24 hours. Grape juice is made differentlly so it isn't pure wine.

I don't agree with you that the WoW will come to an end next dispensation because there is nothing writen to support that point of view.

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So missionaries never explain to non-mormons that the bible supports their decision to not use wine?

No they don't because it doesn't.

What the Bible does support is the principle of following the Lords appointed Prophets and Apostles who provide guidence to us in the here and now.

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Well, the Lord could be referring to pure wine which is alcohol free for the first 24 hours. Grape juice is made differentlly so it isn't pure wine.

Where does this notion of "pure wine" come from? I tried to look it up but found nothing but companies that are actual wine sellers (the alcoholic kind). Any sources?

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Where does this notion of "pure wine" come from? I tried to look it up but found nothing but companies that are actual wine sellers (the alcoholic kind). Any sources?

D&C 89 mentions "pure wine":

6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.

I wonder if he's also including the idea of new wine:

4 Wherefore, you shall partake of none except it is made new among you; yea, in this my Father’s kingdom which shall be built up on the earth.

I've been doing some online skimming and I'm seeing sources of older american definitions of wine not necessarily being alcoholic and for translations of various Hebrew words that may or may not imply an alcoholic grape juice beverage. Nothing scholarly though.

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Our Word of Wisdom actually permits wine drinking but conditions that to pure wine of the grape of one's own making ie alcohol free:

Well, I guess if you go by the scriptures, than our Word of Wisdom also permits beer drinking as well.

D&C 89:17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for th horse, and rye for the fowls and swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain."

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I've been doing some online skimming and I'm seeing sources of older american definitions of wine not necessarily being alcoholic and for translations of various Hebrew words that may or may not imply an alcoholic grape juice beverage. Nothing scholarly though.

I think the whole thing is a reach from a post-WOW context. Wine is not grape juice. Christ's first miracle wasn't to make grape juice. If it was then it wouldn't have been worthy of the commentary from the governor of the feast at the wedding.

D&C 27 is pretty specific that the Lord is concerned about the saints purchasing wine from their enemies. To make "new" wine is to do just that, make it yourself so that you know the source.

To project our current law upon the acts of Christ or Smith seems to be a mountain of a retrofit. Is there something wrong with either of them actually drinking alcohol?

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Well, I guess if you go by the scriptures, than our Word of Wisdom also permits beer drinking as well.

D&C 89:17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for th horse, and rye for the fowls and swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain."[/b

That's correct. Pure beer would be ok but industry today only sells beer with alcohol so the brethren added beer to the banned substances WoW speaks of around 1920's odd. Before that several brethren argued that beer was OK. (I'm going by memory here but the history is freely available)

Again, the problem was the alcohol. And today most studies back up this view, since wine is good for the heart due to substances that come from the grap like resvaratrol, but one has to drink in moderation due to the problems alcohol brings. Things like Wisky and Vodka are obviously bad in any quantity. Beer comes in a distant second to wine due to the good from the barley and wheat but again must be taken in moderation due to the alcohol it contains.

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Apologies for not making myself clear: What makes you think 89:6 references anything other than typical alcoholic wine?

It says so in the text. Its obvious:

That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.

6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.

7 And, again, astrong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.

Pure wine would be something different to the just 'wine' mentioned in 5. ie pure is straight from crushing the grapes to service without any additives or allowing fermentation. Word 'pure' is the key I'd say

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