Evangelicals and Mormons

[bytor2112]

I have indeed seen those who "perform" outside LDS General Conference and can agree that their tactics are not performing any useful purpose...I reject their approach fully. However, IMV there is nothing compromising about the Gospel. As Jesus firmly demonstrated in his Sermon of Woes strong language is sometimes necessary especially when the devil comes tempting as an "angel of light". I disagree wholeheartedly with Mormon theology...but I can disagree agreeably and not compromise my beliefs and Biblical accuracy in the process.

Which Angel of Light are you accusing of being Satan? In the Sacred Grove Heavenly Father introduces Christ......Moroni likewise proclaimed Christ had come in the flesh....So, who is the Satan, posing as an Angel of Light?

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Edited February 11, 2012 by bytor2112

[DasMarcos]

I would say that at the end of the day it largely depends on the individual and who they are personally.

Don't judge a faith by just one person who represents it, or even a set of people. There are individuals in all faiths that are incredibly loving, caring, empathetic, humble, and filled with grace.

There are exceptions to each and every rule. Don't let your limited perceptions about a certain group hold you back from your own faith and beliefs.

[pendragon]

As a point of fact gates down't actually prevail....the are a defensive feature of a citadel. The scripture is pointing out that the gates of hell will not prevail, last or stand, against Christ's church. When you can learn to read scripture in context and not just regurgitate church tracts then perhaps we can discuss intelligently. I'll be happy to do so.

[jayanna]

As a point of fact gates down't actually prevail....the are a defensive feature of a citadel. The scripture is pointing out that the gates of hell will not prevail, last or stand, against Christ's church. When you can learn to read scripture in context and not just regurgitate church tracts then perhaps we can discuss intelligently. I'll be happy to do so.

That was unnecessary...and he was speaking in the figurative....intellect should not resort to such tactics as the ones you are utilizing here.

Cynicism does not make you intelligent, it only makes you cynical.

[bytor2112]

As a point of fact gates down't actually prevail....the are a defensive feature of a citadel. The scripture is pointing out that the gates of hell will not prevail, last or stand, against Christ's church. When you can learn to read scripture in context and not just regurgitate church tracts then perhaps we can discuss intelligently. I'll be happy to do so.

....."the things of God can only be understood by the power of the Holy Spirit". Oh and as for church tracts....I would note some of your sarcastic comments as dripping with common accusations from those felt led to show Mormons the error of their ways. And by the way, aside from being rude....you really didn't answer any of my comments.

[pendragon]

DasMarcos, I would agree with you... most faiths offer a mix of people. It may surprise you to know that I have worked with many Mormons, even employed some, had good Mormon neighbors, and have some as friends today....but the discussion isn't about people, it's about scripture and what is says.

[pendragon]

jayanna, you are right, I was offhand and dismissive. It comes from a desire to see people think through their beliefs and responses rather than resorting to stock and canned answers.

[slamjet]

So, this is not a discussion, but about showing us the error of our way's.

[pendragon]

bytor, scripture and verse..and context...for the "Let no man deceive you.." quote. Refrence is always helpful.

[pendragon]

Slamjet, of course it's a discussion...and of course I disagree with the Mormon position...true, too, that in any discussion isn't the desired end result that the person with the opposing view will agree with the other person? Isn't that why the Mormon church sends out 60,000 "missionaries"...most to churched people of the world? Or are you suggesting that Mormons have a corner on sincere motives? I am just one on this entire board...why do you find honest discussion threatening...at least it appears that way to me.

[norah63]

I would hope that discussion isn't to 'get the other person to agree', could it just be to open up our hearts to one another and share our hopes and encouragement.

Having found such blessings in reading the book of Mormon, and also blessings from the fellowship of

so many evangelical teachings. The first line of the Lords prayer comes to mine. "Our Father"

Jesus taught us to pray as a family. Diffrent ages and duties, diffrent talents and abilities.

They are not to seperate us, but to make us a strong church. A beautiful bride, without spot wrinkle or blimish.

There is a way throught the tangle of the ages, and everyone feels like they are not able to be decieved. Scripture is from the revelation to the reciever, no man stands in that place. That is done by the Holy Spirit. For the Spirit of all truth will lead us all into the unity of the faith. We can be assured of that, because Jesus already prayed it.

Fear not little flock, it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

[pendragon]

So, 60,000 Mormon "missionaries" are out there just to "open our hearts and share our hopes and encouragement"?

[Just_A_Guy]

Pendragon -

Generally speaking, we'll settle for sincere discussion and mutual understanding where conversion is off-the-table.

What we aren't up to, is ad hominem attacks implying that anyone who dares disagree with the attacker has obviously not truly considered his/her position and is merely regurgitating Church tracts. I'm glad you've disavowed that position, and hope your continued participation here is fruitful for everyone.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Just_A_Guy

[prisonchaplain]

So, 60,000 Mormon "missionaries" are out there just to "open our hearts and share our hopes and encouragement"?

Not sure about all 60,000, but the two that came to my door awhile back seemed to be of this mindset. They told me they were trying to share their beliefs, and just talk to people about Jesus and his goodness. I shared that I had met some LDS, that they volunteered at the jail where I was the pastor. Then I asked if they would let me pray for them. They agreed, I did, and off they went.

NOW, if, in sharing their hopes and encouragements you respond, "Wow, that's really cool. Tell me more, I might want to become a Mormon!" ...well don't be surprised if they do...tell you more.

[pendragon]

Bytor, I see that you have so far ignored my request for chapter and verse on your quote: "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first." 2 Thessalonians 2:3. So, I'll respond. We have to ask ourselves the question; "What day." It is clear that the writers is talking of the end time, not specifically the last days, but that point in time prior to the second coming of Christ. That is the context but the last part of the verse pinpoints the time, a time when: "that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition." The falling away will take place at the time the son of perdition (the antiChrist is revealed) There wil be a "falling away" because many will follow after him and be deceived by him.

It is clearly not talking of times past but times yet in the future. I do not interpret "falling away" as a complete breakdown of Christ's church the way Mormonism does. I might suggest that the Mormon Church is undergoing a "falling away" right now as admitted recently my Marlin Jensen but in no way can it be described as an "apostasy" from those things the bulk of Mormons believe. History is replete with times of departure from Gods teachings...God's people were at one time so far removed from him that they were carried off into exile...yet even then there were amongst them who chose the side of God so their "apostasy" was not complete.

I think the crux of our different interpretations (the Roman Catholic Church perhaps being an exception) is that orthodoxy does not see "the church" in terms of an institition they way Mormons do. The very word "church" describes the body of believers in Christ...the ones "called out" from the world and set apart as his followers....so that while there are believers (and there has been throughout history) there is Christ's church...."Wherever two of three are gathered in my name". I think Mormonism sets up its own strawman in order to knock it down to prove their point.

I know Mormons only use the KJV but there are better translations available today with more scholarship behind them and certainly language of today rather than the 1600s...why in this modern age would we use ancient language? The verse you quoted (2Thes. 2;3) is rendered differently in the New International Version, possibly the most widely used translation today. The NIV says: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs...." The Contemprorary English Version renders it: "But don't be fooled. People will rebel against God."

[pendragon]

Prisonchaplain: I somehow don't think the thousands of Mormon "missionaries" are out there just to be friendly and say hello. They may well be warm and friendly but their purpose in knocking on doors it to bring people to baptism into the LDS Church. Their church leader is interested in how many baptism they have, not how many people they smiled at. I mean no disrespect in this but that is their purpose.

[prisonchaplain]

pendragon...you're not wrong. On the other hand, they mostly seem to use a "soft sell" approach, so that if a householder shows no interest in their church, or says, "I already have a church," etc., then they probably will not hear any LDS promotion at all. Any missionary from any religion wants converts or baptisms...but my sense is that the LDS ones are far less aggressive than some other groups.

[Windseeker]

I would hope that discussion isn't to 'get the other person to agree', could it just be to open up our hearts to one another and share our hopes and encouragement.

Having found such blessings in reading the book of Mormon, and also blessings from the fellowship of

so many evangelical teachings. The first line of the Lords prayer comes to mine. "Our Father"

Jesus taught us to pray as a family. Diffrent ages and duties, diffrent talents and abilities.

They are not to seperate us, but to make us a strong church. A beautiful bride, without spot wrinkle or blimish.

There is a way throught the tangle of the ages, and everyone feels like they are not able to be decieved. Scripture is from the revelation to the reciever, no man stands in that place. That is done by the Holy Spirit. For the Spirit of all truth will lead us all into the unity of the faith. We can be assured of that, because Jesus already prayed it.

Fear not little flock, it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

Young LDS children are taught "Jesus said Love Everyone" to treat people like Jesus would. They are taught that being like Jesus means to turn the other cheek, love your enemies, bless them that curse you and pray for them that persecute you. Trying to be like Jesus is our goal.

Those in the LDS faith experience first hand. "They draw near to me with their lips but their hearts are far from me" It's a painful realization that not all followers of Christ strive to be like Jesus. Every LDS person I know has experienced persecution and mostly at the hands of those who profess to be Christian. All of us have been in conversations with fellow Christians and upon mentioning our faith, witnessed a change in countenance and demeanor and the conversation is either cut short or you get the "don't you guys believe.." followed by some pathetic twisted notion of our beliefs.

Growing up I was harassed constantly by someone who always professed his Christianity. His attempts to get me to smoke or drink never succeeded but one night he was rewarded when a fellow LDS friend from the football team took a drink. He proudly stated to all that he always wanted to corrupt a Mormon. Contrast him with my wonderful Catholic friends who while hanging out after graduation told me how proud they were that I stuck with my beliefs despite the peer pressure. One of them actually helped convince me to serve a mission. Despite how difficult High School was it pales in comparison to facing my wife and 3 kids after being fired on Christmas Eve, two days after letting my "Born Again" boss know which church I go too. (I should thank him now, after working a couple months as a temp security guard I got hired full time by Microsoft as a software developer and his company didn't weather the dotcom bubble burst.)

We accept and even expect persecution to an extent, "for so they persecuted the prophets".

But I still hold out hope for our Christian brothers. Our shared morals and values should encourage fellowship as we battle societal decline and the defining of deviancy down.

Examples of some on this message board like Prison Chaplain, and messages like this give me hope. One Girl’s Appeal to All Christians – Start the Love | Christian Hut

[DasMarcos]

DasMarcos, I would agree with you... most faiths offer a mix of people. It may surprise you to know that I have worked with many Mormons, even employed some, had good Mormon neighbors, and have some as friends today....but the discussion isn't about people, it's about scripture and what is says.

The discussion is never just about scripture and what it says. People transmit everything through God and it's up to people to do so in a satisfactory and acceptable manner. The greatest transcendent doctrine isn't worth a penny if the individual representing that doctrine is cold and unloving. God has to work through us, human beings who are imperfect, to get His point across. This issue is about the attitude a group of people possess i.e. Evangelicals. That attitude does not necessarily have to have anything to do with doctrine but merely an outlook on life.

When you limit a discussion on faith just to doctrine you leave out 99 percent of the faith. If it wasn't for the repersentatives of the LDS and their eloquence and outstanding character where would the messages of the LDS be now? I'm sure there are countless Bishops and ward leaders who exude outstanding character traits and that is where the love and acceptance trickles down from.

It is all about the people and doctrine is secondary. Anyone who has a problem with doctrine has a problem with the social life of the faith. When people stop embodying the positive traits of the faith that is when doubt is cast. That is why people lose faith and leave God. So it is and will forever be about the people who first and foremost must embody the faith and be that light for others.

Edited February 13, 2012 by DasMarcos

[bytor2112]

I think the crux of our different interpretations (the Roman Catholic Church perhaps being an exception) is that orthodoxy does not see "the church" in terms of an institition they way Mormons do. The very word "church" describes the body of believers in Christ...the ones "called out" from the world and set apart as his followers....so that while there are believers (and there has been throughout history) there is Christ's church...."Wherever two of three are gathered in my name". I think Mormonism sets up its own strawman in order to knock it down to prove their point.

I understand why you might think that....but, it is not so much the church as the Authority that has been given to the Priesthood of the Church to administer the saving ordinances that the Lord has prepared. There are many who confess Christ and I am happy to conclude that they are believers. That said, it is really about how we Come unto Christ.

As a Latter Day Saint, I came unto Christ and accepted HIS mercy and Grace and offered as repentance a broken heart and a contrite Spirit and entered the waters of Baptism.....performed by a legal administrator of God's Kingdom and by virtue became a member of HIS church. The Apostasy or "falling away" has more to do with the absence of Priesthood Authority and Pure Doctrine having been corrupted and not that the teaching of the Savior or his message of salvation being taken. As a convert I have somewhat of a different perspective, I attended an Assemblies of God Church as a boy and then at about 10 or 11 I was baptized in a Southern Baptist Church....my wife was Southern Baptist as well and we are and remain quite astonished that we are now Latter Day Saints.

Oh and just as an aside...I am perfectly okay with the various versions of scripture that are available and have read many of them. Aside from your "prevail" commentary, I am always happy to read the views of others. Incidentally, I am well aware of the various implications of that particular scripture and what it MAY pertain to......as you know we interpret "rock" to be revelation" and not Peter and, Gates could mean to keep in or out the Gospel from being preached to the Spirit world or the secular world....but that is another topic.

Edited February 13, 2012 by bytor2112

[Just_A_Guy]

Bytor, I see that you have so far ignored my request for chapter and verse on your quote: "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first." 2 Thessalonians 2:3. So, I'll respond. We have to ask ourselves the question; "What day." It is clear that the writers is talking of the end time, not specifically the last days, but that point in time prior to the second coming of Christ. That is the context but the last part of the verse pinpoints the time, a time when: "that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition." The falling away will take place at the time the son of perdition (the antiChrist is revealed) There wil be a "falling away" because many will follow after him and be deceived by him.

It is clearly not talking of times past but times yet in the future.

It is very possible you're over-thinking this. "That day" is defined, in the preceding verse, as "the day of Christ" and in Verse 1 as "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ". (That's KJV; modern translations are even more on-point.) I don't claim to be completely versed in Protestant end-times theology; but I know enough to know that there have been more proposed "men of sin" than one can shake a stick at. Pardon my flippancy, but really--Nero, Caligula, Domitian, Napoleon, Hitler, Bush, Obama . . . a litany of Popes over the past two millennia . . . who's next?

I might suggest that the Mormon Church is undergoing a "falling away" right now as admitted recently my Marlin Jensen but in no way can it be described as an "apostasy" from those things the bulk of Mormons believe.

Historical note: I know some critics get their kicks off this notion that Mormonism is suddenly imploding in a unique way; but the fact is that the LDS Church has been undergoing "falling away" almost perpetually since its founding. We don't talk about it much, but significant numbers left the Church at every stage in its migration (Ohio, Missouri, Illinois), and there was a reasonably constant stream of ex-Mormons heading eastwards from Utah from the 1850s onwards. Anyways, back to the discussion:

History is replete with times of departure from Gods teachings...God's people were at one time so far removed from him that they were carried off into exile...yet even then there were amongst them who chose the side of God so their "apostasy" was not complete.

I'll readily grant that there were always people who followed God the best way they understood Him. But it seems also pretty well established that throughout the Old Testament there were periods when the prophets went silent, and when the lines of divinely-appointed institutional authority (for example, the one established by Moses) became corrupt.

I do not interpret "falling away" as a complete breakdown of Christ's church the way Mormonism does. . . . I think the crux of our different interpretations (the Roman Catholic Church perhaps being an exception) is that orthodoxy does not see "the church" in terms of an institution they way Mormons do.

Granted.

The very word "church" describes the body of believers in Christ...the ones "called out" from the world and set apart as his followers....so that while there are believers (and there has been throughout history) there is Christ's church...."Wherever two of three are gathered in my name".

Matthew 18 promises the Lord's presence to those who gather in His name, but does not prescribe or proscribe any organizational structure. Later Church history--as recorded in the New Testament and elsewhere--confirms that there was an organized body with defined leaders. The original word in first-century CE Koine Greek was ekklēsia, which merely denotes an "assembly". Five centuries of Protestant theology may seek to eschew this reading in favor of the "Church-as-bride-of-Christ" view (which isn't wrong); but the institutional elements are still there even if you choose not to see them.

I think Mormonism sets up its own strawman in order to knock it down to prove their point.

Err . . . it wasn't the Mormons who invented the idea of an institutional Church.

I know Mormons only use the KJV but there are better translations available today with more scholarship behind them and certainly language of today rather than the 1600s...why in this modern age would we use ancient language? The verse you quoted (2Thes. 2;3) is rendered differently in the New International Version, possibly the most widely used translation today. The NIV says: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs...." The Contemprorary English Version renders it: "But don't be fooled. People will rebel against God."

A point of order: The LDS-produced curriculum materials use the KJV and yes, we do generally view it as most accurate from a theological standpoint. But it is incorrect to say that "Mormons only use the KJV". Many of us use additional translations in our personal study. As you can see from my link above, I'm a big fan of the Blue Letter Bible. Interestingly enough, Strong's lexicon indicates that the Greek word used here was "apostasia" which connotes "defection" or (interestingly enough) "falling away". The KJV, then, seems to fit the nuance of the original Greek better than the translations you mention. And that is one reason "why in this modern day we [sometimes still prefer to] use ancient language".

Nor do the alternate translations you cite really buttress your point. Rebellion, falling away . . . the point is that at some point before the second coming, there is a massive defection from the true Gospel; and Paul knew that it was beginning even as he wrote (see verse 7).

Edited February 13, 2012 by Just_A_Guy

[JanSan]

Pendragon

I am not a scriptorium as some on here may be.

But, I am old enough and wise enough to understand veiled put down, and sarcastic remarks when I hear or read them.

I have truly enjoyed coming to this site because it is here that I have learned many things from people of other faiths weather they were Jewish, Catholic etc.

One thing I have not found is criticism of my religion on sly put downs etc.. that is until you came on.

I went on a mission.... that does not make me a horrible person! I wasn't out there to convert at all cost the whole world (or the area of my mission) but to help people understand my religion better if they had any questions and yes, to convert those that WANTED to be converted. In case you do not know we are NOT the only church that sends out missionaries.

I would love to hear more from you - but have you ever heard of the saying - you get more with honey then with vinegar (or something like that).

The second great commandment - is to love your neighbor as yourself. Please look at Prison chaplain and others (non LDS) on this board to see how this is done if you have any questions.

Hope to hear from you again soon, but in a much nicer tone.

[pendragon]

It appears to me that your response clouds the issue. You offered the Thessalonians verse as a proof text of the complete breakdown of Christ's church. I have replied with a perspective of why that is a wrong interpretation...a perspective which I contend is supported by the context of the scripture. Now you are changing the subject to other, wider issues. If you disagree with my position on the Thessalonians quote may I hear why you feel that specific quote still supports the idea of a total apostasy going back to almost to the time of Christ himself.

[pendragon]

JanSan: Perhaps you could reference these "veiled put downs" and "sacrcasms" that you accuse me of. I suspect they are there in your sensibilities rather than in reality. Nowhere did I describe anyone as a "horrible person" but I stated clearly that the ultimate object of Mormon "missionaries" is to baptize people into the Mormon Church. Is that a "veiled put down".?....is it "sarcastic"? I did not suggest the idea of "at all costs"...merely stated the primary objective of the Mormon Church proselytizing effort. In general terms, if you want posts that just make you feel good perhaps you should avoid mine....I believe that salvation is too important an issue to leave to flattery. How much honey did Jesus use in the Sermon of Woes in Matthew 23?

[pendragon]

Just-a-guy: You raise many points but none confirm from a scriptural basis any kind of complete failure of Christ's church...especially the one under discussion. There is no other reading of the Thessalonians passage that suggests any other time than that period shortly before the revelation of the "anti-Christ'. The two events are clearly linked together in those verses and the whole point of the chapter is relative to the time of Christ's second coming and what will take place prior to it happening. Paul wrote often in his letters of problems within the church as people from various nations, cultures and religious traditions came together in Christ. IMV to assume that such problems were evidence that everything he and others were working for was about to collapse is simply absurd and is not supported by virtually any religious or historical scholarship outside Mormonism.