Unworthy Temple Work

[little_dog]

My friend (really, he's a guy in my old singles ward) does temple work every Thursday afternoon. But my friends and I all know that he is not worthy. Are the people he performs work for the dead for penalized or are their ordinances diminished because of his unworthyness?

[Vort]

No. But if your judgment of his situation is correct, he is doing himself grave spiritual harm. God will not be mocked.

[Jennarator]

The person that is doing the temple work and not worthy will be the punished. NOT the one getting the work done for them.

Just as a child being baptized by an unworthy father is not accountable for the father's lies. That child is baptized, period. The father is in trouble. (Until he repents if he so chooses to.)

[Forget-Me-Not]

This I just do not understand. I know people do it, that there are people who are dishonest in their interviews, but I don't understand it. Where is the joy of serving in the temple of the Lord when one must lie or be deceptive in some way to do it? Is it that they just don't want anyone to know their weaknesses or sins? Is it that they don't care about being dishonest? Is it that they want to maintain an image? I mean, don't let me in, please! If I cannot be truthful to do it! I just don't understand.

[Jennarator]

This I just do not understand. I know people do it, that there are people who are dishonest in their interviews, but I don't understand it. Where is the joy of serving in the temple of the Lord when one must lie or be deceptive in some way to do it? Is it that they just don't want anyone to know their weaknesses or sins? Is it that they don't care about being dishonest? Is it that they want to maintain an image? I mean, don't let me in, please! If I cannot be truthful to do it! I just don't understand.

I don't get it either. I think it's pride!

[NeuroTypical]

my friends and I all know that he is not worthy.

And exactly how do you and your friends "know" this?

[jerome1232]

And exactly how do you and your friends "know" this?

My thought as well.

[Guest gopecon]

And exactly how do you and your friends "know" this?

I can think of quite a few things that one could know about someone that would make them unworthy of a recommend. The Law of Chastity, Word of Wisdom, and stealing come to mind as things that others could see being clearly violated. Other commandments are also fairly clear cut.

[FunkyTown]

I can think of quite a few things that one could know about someone that would make them unworthy of a recommend. The Law of Chastity, Word of Wisdom, and stealing come to mind as things that others could see being clearly violated. Other commandments are also fairly clear cut.

I disagree. Unless these people have gone to the bar and seen him drinking, it's impossible to know someone is unworthy of the recommend. Someone being accused of stealing, or fornicating, has not necessarily stole or fornicated.

[Guest]

Unless he fornicated with one of them. Or drinks with them.

This is how rumors get started.

[Guest gopecon]

I disagree. Unless these people have gone to the bar and seen him drinking, it's impossible to know someone is unworthy of the recommend. Someone being accused of stealing, or fornicating, has not necessarily stole or fornicated.

You don't think that people are ever aware of the sins of others?

Look, I'm not into questioning the integrity of the bishop/SP who signed the recommend, or into basing worthiness on rumors. I've seen gossip do some terrible things. I don't make a habit of questioning the worthiness of the people that I go to church with - that's not my calling. But I wouldn't doubt that someone could know that someone is not worthy of a recommend. The questions are standardized and the black and white ones (i.e. not about sustaining leaders or personal testimony and covenant keeping) can be seen to be violated.

[FunkyTown]

They sure can. That's why I said 'Unless he has actually physically seen', etc. etc.

Because I've definitely seen where people have accused others of something they didn't actually do.

You don't think that people are ever aware of the sins of others?

Look, I'm not into questioning the integrity of the bishop/SP who signed the recommend, or into basing worthiness on rumors. I've seen gossip do some terrible things. I don't make a habit of questioning the worthiness of the people that I go to church with - that's not my calling. But I wouldn't doubt that someone could know that someone is not worthy of a recommend. The questions are standardized and the black and white ones (i.e. not about sustaining leaders or personal testimony and covenant keeping) can be seen to be violated.

[AGStacker]

I disagree. Unless these people have gone to the bar and seen him drinking, it's impossible to know someone is unworthy of the recommend. Someone being accused of stealing, or fornicating, has not necessarily stole or fornicated.

Is it possible that this person BRAGS about his sins or openly talks about them?

What world do you people live in? You've NEVER had friends who have talked about their sins?

My close friends are fairly good guys and I know when they aren't obeying their Temple covenants.

[ryanh]

Is it possible that this person BRAGS about his sins or openly talks about them?

And what if he does? Do you then feel you have the right or responsibility to judge?

[AGStacker]

And what if he does? Do you then feel you have the right or responsibility to judge?

I never said I judged them ever. When people commit certain sins it is apparent they shouldn't be going to the Temple. I don't need to be a bishop to figure that out. People here are essentially saying that the OP is just judging his friend and doesn't truly know if he should go to the Temple while I maintain that friends talk to other friends about their mistakes. What are friends for?

[sister_in_faith]

I can't really see much good in trying to decided if someone is 'worthy' of their recommend or not... I bet most of the time we would get it wrong. Leave it up to Heavenly Father, Jesus, the spirit, the bishop, and the member to figure out. Even if we were right, what good does it do to try and figure it out anyway?

People have been wrong about me before, and I know that nobody involved with that got brownie points from HF over it.

Now that the OP had their question answered, I think it would be best for them to just realize that it isn't their concern (which should be a burden lifted off their shoulders! - I know I am thankful I don't have to keep track of my fellow men!), and leave it at that. Any further digging could prove harmful.

Just my 2 cents.

[Guest gopecon]

Is it unrighteous judging to believe that someone should not have a temple recommend who you know to have committed sins that would disqualify them from the temple? The OP was not talking about reporting them to the bishop, they were just curious as to the efficacy of the work this person was doing. No judging there. In our society we get so allergic to judging sometimes that some people get to where they can't call things as they are. If you know that someone drinks or smokes, violates the law of chastity, is dishonest in their dealings, etc., then they are by definition not worthy to go to the temple.

Hopefully that "knowledge" is actual knowledge and not gossip, but it's not unreasonable to take the OP at their word that they knew of some sins that would disqualify this brother from the temple. Can they repent? Of course. Are they a worthwhile, loved child of our Father in Heaven? Absolutely.

[ryanh]

Third, to be righteous, an intermediate judgment must be within our stewardship. We should not presume to exercise and act upon judgments that are outside our personal responsibilities. Some time ago I attended an adult Sunday School class in a small town in Utah. The subject was the sacrament, and the class was being taught by the bishop. During class discussion a member asked, "What if you see an unworthy person partaking of the sacrament? What do you do?"

The bishop answered, "You do nothing. I may need to do something." That wise answer illustrates my point about stewardship in judging.

[bold emphasis mine]

Judge Not and Judging DALLIN H. OAKS

Elder Oaks' point above is that a judgment of worthiness that is outside of our stewardship is not a righteous judgment. In light of Elder Oaks' clear comments, when we are talking about a "friend", not someone we have stewardship over as a Bishop, SP, etc, then I conclude that judging them as unworthy is an unrighteous judgment.

In short, it is none of our business. When someone comes here saying 'my friend is unworthy to do temple work', I do feel that, within the framework of the Gospel, it is none of his business to making that determination. Concern may be warranted, and perhaps that could be discussed with the friend, but the judgment is offputting.

Edited November 30, 2011 by ryanh

[Guest gopecon]

Elder Oaks comment was that the bishop has the responsibility to judge AND ACT. No one here has proposed acting against the allegedly unworthy person to stop them from going to the temple. There is no sin in seeing that wrong actions are occuring, or in reaching the sometimes obvious conclusion that the temple worthiness of a person is in jeopardy.

[ryanh]

You miss the point, and you really ought to read the entire speech. The act of judging in an of itself can be a sin if unrighteous. When outside of our stewardship, it is unrighteous to judge as worthy or not.

[sister_in_faith]

I think there CAN be harm in thinking someone is doing something wrong, when they actually aren't. You are more likely to treat that person differently, unkindly, or just ignore them. And we often project our feelings so that others 'know' what we are thinking, and just by thinking someone is unworthy, can make that person uncomfortable. If you think someone is unworthy and someone else says something unkind about them, you are less likely to stand up in their defense.

There are so many things that can go badly, it is just better for us to decide NOT to even go down this road at all, and just leave these things up to the bishop.

[Guest gopecon]

It seems like some of you want people to deny the obvious. If you know (again, assuming that this knowledge is reliable) that someone has violated commandments that are clearly discussed in the temple recommend interview, then you now know that person is (hopefully) temporarily unworthy of the blessings of the temple. We shouldn't be out looking for these issues - unless we are called we are not judges or worthiness police, but that doesn't mean that we necessarily sin in recognizing the problem. As sister_in_faith says, we do sin if we let it affect how we treat that person, but we don't have to be blind.

[beefche]

It seems like some of you want people to deny the obvious. If you know (again, assuming that this knowledge is reliable) that someone has violated commandments that are clearly discussed in the temple recommend interview, then you now know that person is (hopefully) temporarily unworthy of the blessings of the temple. We shouldn't be out looking for these issues - unless we are called we are not judges or worthiness police, but that doesn't mean that we necessarily sin in recognizing the problem. As sister_in_faith says, we do sin if we let it affect how we treat that person, but we don't have to be blind.

Why do we need to recognize the problem? Do we have some responsibility if we observe or know someone not keeping temple covenants and then see them in the temple?

[Vort]

Why do we need to recognize the problem? Do we have some responsibility if we observe or know someone not keeping temple covenants and then see them in the temple?

I do not know the answer to this, but I suspect that yes, we do have such a responsibility.

Suppose X and Y, both LDS, are fornicating with each other. X then observes Y performing Priesthood ordinances at Church, or perhaps attending temple sessions (that X does not attend, knowing herself to be unworthy). She must, of course, confess to her bishop and seek to make things right. Must she also "out" Y as an adulterer? Yes, I think she must, and not merely as a by-product of her own confession. She knows him to be unworthy; I think she has a duty to protect the integrity of Priesthood ordinances against someone who would mock God by performing them unworthily.

This does not mean it is our responsibility to police everyone else, of course. But if for whatever reason we have actual knowledge of unworthiness and we see that person performing duties for which we know him/her to be unworthy, I believe we are duty-bound to let our leaders know what we know. Once we have given them the knowledge, the onus is on them and our duty fulfilled.

At least, that's what I think about the topic today.

[AGStacker]

Why do we need to recognize the problem? Do we have some responsibility if we observe or know someone not keeping temple covenants and then see them in the temple?

4 Ye are also commanded not to cast any one who belongeth to the church out of your sacrament meetings; nevertheless, if any have trespassed, let him not partake until he makes reconciliation.