Unworthy Temple Work


little_dog
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Isn't it amazing the direction a thread might go compared to the original direction indicated?

There are indeed times where the person performing an ordinance is unworthy to do so. Yet I've never run into a case where they've done so without the authority to perform them.

By this I mean that were an unworthy priest to bless the sacrament, that is on his head and the ordinance is still official for you.

Yet if my sisters were to get up and bless the sacrament, me taking it from them wouldn't do anything for me.

As to the rest of the conversation:

Say I know someone has committed serious sin. How does it harm the sinner that I bring it to their bishops attention? How does it harm me?

Isn't the commandment not "judge not" but rather "judge not unrighteously"? Could we not therefore say it is a commandment to "judge rigtheously"? If sufficient proof is evident before me to allow me to judge righteously and I do not do so, would this not be a sin of omission?

If someone you know commits a crime and you stay silent, are you not enabling their behavior? Isn't it possible that by speaking up to the authorities they might have stopped? If you don't speak up and they continue in crime, are you not partially accountable?

If someone you know commits a serious sin and you stay silent, are you not also enabling their behavior? Isn't it possible that by speaking up to the proper authority, such as their bishop, that they might stop? If they don't stop and continue in sin, are you not also partially accountable?

These are some serious questions that each of us must weigh in our hearts and determine our own answers.

Lets say I know someone who is committing adultery or fornication. Perhaps they confessed it to me. Perhaps I saw them in the act. Perhaps they posted an indecent picture on their Facebook account. Now they may have spoken with the Bishop but I would have no way of knowing if they had. Yet I see them taking the sacrament or performing a sacred ordinance such as serving in the temple and I'm concerned.

Are they not drinking damnation to their souls by taking the sacrament? Are they not mocking God by unworthily performing the sacred ordinances and therein incurring the condemnation and wrath of a Just God against them?

Does it not become that much more difficult to repent of such sin the longer they do it?

Do you want to leave them in that condition when by a few words to their bishop you might start the repentance process that much sooner?

It is my civic duty to report crime to the authorities. In that same manner, is not also a duty to report serious sin as well?

I discussed this topic with my family and my father did have some pertinent advice. Any sin which is predatory in nature should be reported. Predatory as in hurting or harming others.

Gossip is defined as the casual or unconstrained conversation or reports about other people, typically involving details that are not confirmed as being true.

Backbiting is defined as malicious talk about someone who is not present.

No one likes being a tattletale. Yet it takes courage to step forward. Reporting something you believe or know to be true to the proper authorities is not wrong and it is neither gossip or backbiting.

If I were sinning and unrepentant and by another person bringing it to my bishops attention I in the end repent, I would be profoundly grateful that someone was brave enough to speak up rather than leave me wallowing in sin.

I feel we must each weigh this matter in our own heart and determine our conduct therefrom. I will not condemn someone for not reporting serious sin and I hope that they will not condemn me for reporting it.

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  • 4 years later...

Bumping this topic. 

I joined this group because it came up on a topic search. 

I'm nearly having a panic attack today because I'm taking my daughters to the temple tomorrow for a temple session including our ward and I'm afraid a particular ward member will be there. 

He's not related to us but has hurt our family. We went to the Stake about it and they promised to initiate a council for him that week. That was five months ago. He's never apologized, which is why I know he hasn't fully repented, but as far as I know he could be there tomorrow.

I'm fairly certain his presence there would make my daughters very uncomfortable and obviously me as well.

So here's my question : if he is there, like for example in the font or at the confirmation area, should we say something like ask him to leave or just avoid him?

I know you can only take my word for it, so please treat this as a hypothetical.  What would you do if an unrepentant, manipulative person who's hurt you, who continuously lies to others, and who you know will hurt you again if given the chance, were there in the temple room?

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Darlin, just be aware that you're hardly alone in this.  I moved my family out of Utah partially to aid in placing distance between us and people exactly like you describe.  Protect and respect your daughters, and take care of yourself.  People think the commandment to forgive all, means we need to expose ourselves to further harm or turn a blind eye to a real threat.  It's not true.  

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4 hours ago, Darlin said:

Bumping this topic. 

I joined this group because it came up on a topic search. 

I'm nearly having a panic attack today because I'm taking my daughters to the temple tomorrow for a temple session including our ward and I'm afraid a particular ward member will be there. 

He's not related to us but has hurt our family. We went to the Stake about it and they promised to initiate a council for him that week. That was five months ago. He's never apologized, which is why I know he hasn't fully repented, but as far as I know he could be there tomorrow.

I'm fairly certain his presence there would make my daughters very uncomfortable and obviously me as well.

So here's my question : if he is there, like for example in the font or at the confirmation area, should we say something like ask him to leave or just avoid him?

I know you can only take my word for it, so please treat this as a hypothetical.  What would you do if an unrepentant, manipulative person who's hurt you, who continuously lies to others, and who you know will hurt you again if given the chance, were there in the temple room?

A couple of general thoughts here--

*First and foremost protect yourself and your daughters.  As @NeuroTypical said, forgiveness does not mean exposing yourself to more harmful situations.  

*Obviously I'm not privy to whatever this individual did.  If he is a danger to your daughters or other youth, should he be working with them at all?  If so, I would possibly discuss these thoughts with the Bishop/Stake.  Obviously there are wrong things he could have done which won't make him a danger.

*If he is going to the temple unworthily, that is his sin to deal with.  You've already done your duty talking to the stake about it.  Now your duty is simply to protect your family.  I would stay away from him and keep boundaries.  I would not ask him to leave in the middle of the temple (this is his sin, you need to focus on your family).

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I would not take my daughters to the temple on ward days. Call the temple and ask about open baptism day and/or family day.  At my temple on open days, family members can do baptism for the dead. So maybe you can do this on open day and on family day? You can explain the situation to the person on the end of the phone or ask to speak to the temple president. As a convert, I was very surprised to discover that my temple president considered it his number one responsibility to serve the patrons. I am on my 3rd temple president and this approach appears to be church policy. In fact in my temple people sometimes make an appointment to talk to the temple president about personal problems. I was amazed.

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3 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

I would not take my daughters to the temple on ward days. Call the temple and ask about open baptism day and/or family day.  At my temple on open days, family members can do baptism for the dead. So maybe you can do this on open day and on family day? You can explain the situation to the person on the end of the phone or ask to speak to the temple president. As a convert, I was very surprised to discover that my temple president considered it his number one responsibility to serve the patrons. I am on my 3rd temple president and this approach appears to be church policy. In fact in my temple people sometimes make an appointment to talk to the temple president about personal problems. I was amazed.

I have never seen a temple turn down a family temple visit (unless of course they are closed for cleaning).  No explanation needed, just call and go.  Youth can get their own temple recommends from the Bishop, just like adults (granted youth temple recommends are just for baptisms).

 

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16 hours ago, Darlin said:

Bumping this topic. 

I joined this group because it came up on a topic search. 

I'm nearly having a panic attack today because I'm taking my daughters to the temple tomorrow for a temple session including our ward and I'm afraid a particular ward member will be there. 

He's not related to us but has hurt our family. We went to the Stake about it and they promised to initiate a council for him that week. That was five months ago. He's never apologized, which is why I know he hasn't fully repented, but as far as I know he could be there tomorrow.

I'm fairly certain his presence there would make my daughters very uncomfortable and obviously me as well.

So here's my question : if he is there, like for example in the font or at the confirmation area, should we say something like ask him to leave or just avoid him?

I know you can only take my word for it, so please treat this as a hypothetical.  What would you do if an unrepentant, manipulative person who's hurt you, who continuously lies to others, and who you know will hurt you again if given the chance, were there in the temple room?

Don't go with the ward. Pretty easy solution.

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Guest MormonGator
5 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Sometimes over coffee.

Yup; been there, done that.  She was nervous about the TR interview the next day, and she was the one that ordered the coffee.

What do YOU know about temple worthiness? Your breakfast consisted of Jack Daniels and Marlboros! 

(just playing everyone. Nothing but love for my boy @NightSG

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7 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

Your breakfast consisted of Jack Daniels and Marlboros! 

Have you priced the name brands lately?  I wish I could afford a breakfast like that.

And yes, since the coffee was there, I had a cup.  But I don't have or claim to have a current TR, nor an interview scheduled.

Edited by NightSG
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4 hours ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

Don't go with the ward. Pretty easy solution.

It was already a done deal when I started panicking. Our ward is small and we'd promised to be there. In any case, I hadn't considered not going and we went today.

He wasn't there. The bishop and SP were there and they seemed very attentive. I felt so at ease that had the person in question shown up, I could easily imagine them ushering him away from our session in consideration to us. Next time I may ask about it in advance.  

Anyways, thanks every one. Just writing that out calmed me down and actually going to the temple was a good experience.

Edited by Darlin
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14 minutes ago, Darlin said:

It was already a done deal when I started panicking. Our ward is small and we'd promised to be there. In any case, I hadn't considered not going and we went today.

He wasn't there. The bishop and SP were there and they seemed very attentive. I felt so at ease that had the person in question shown up, I could easily imagine them ushering him away from our session in consideration to us. Next time I may ask about it in advance.  

Anyways, thanks every one. Just writing that out called me down and actually going to the temple was a good experience.

YEAH!!!!!!

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45 minutes ago, SilentOne said:

Do you eat the Marlboros straight from the package or is some sort of preparation involved? I'm always collecting new recipes.

Actually, I once had a steak that was unintentionally marinated in lime juice, bourbon and Lucky Strike.  Apparently one fell into the baggie (I generally marinate in the smallest Ziploc that will hold the meat) during prep and didn't get noticed until we had the grill going.  Wasn't going to waste the steak, so I rinsed the tobacco off and grilled it anyway.  Had an interesting note from the cured tobacco, but not something I'd do intentionally.

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26 minutes ago, NightSG said:

Actually, I once had a steak that was unintentionally marinated in lime juice, bourbon and Lucky Strike.  Apparently one fell into the baggie (I generally marinate in the smallest Ziploc that will hold the meat) during prep and didn't get noticed until we had the grill going.  Wasn't going to waste the steak, so I rinsed the tobacco off and grilled it anyway.  Had an interesting note from the cured tobacco, but not something I'd do intentionally.

Sounds reasonable. Tobacco is for all sick cattle, and one on your plate is certainly not doing well.

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On November 29, 2011 at 3:26 PM, Forget-Me-Not said:

This I just do not understand. I know people do it, that there are people who are dishonest in their interviews, but I don't understand it. Where is the joy of serving in the temple of the Lord when one must lie or be deceptive in some way to do it? Is it that they just don't want anyone to know their weaknesses or sins? Is it that they don't care about being dishonest? Is it that they want to maintain an image? I mean, don't let me in, please! If I cannot be truthful to do it! I just don't understand. :(

Fear mostly, of which maintaing an image can be important.

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