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While none of of us here know the full extent of the issue, there is something I'd like to add.

It is a well known occurrence that victims can become abusers. While not all victims become such, I think a majority of those who become abusive were once abused.

The question I have is where is this behavior coming from?

It seems apparent that he does not have any problems with his own children but that it is the children of other men that he struggles with.

Why?

What is it in his past and in past relationships that have lead this?

Find out and you may win half the battle right then and there because once the causes are known, steps can be taken to resolve them.

Another thought.

Say you do divorce your husband. Do you know who will be overjoyed?

Satan.

He wants to destroy your family either from within or by causing it to break apart. While he may win if you don't divorce, how is his victory not guaranteed if you do?

The way I would personally approach it is this.

Unless I have received direct council from priesthood authority or from the Lord to divorce my spouse, I will not. Such a decision has eternal repercussions. I know that I am not wise enough to make such a critical decision based on my own limited understanding and wisdom.

I can relate to your concerns and feelings regarding correctly understanding the Lord's will. Though I feel the spirit clearly, I get frustrated sometimes by the difficulty I have in interpreting it.

Seek his revelation and guidance for he can council you better than anyone on earth and definitely everyone on this thread =). Yes you may have to struggle in prayer but it will be worth it for what ever the Lord councils you to do, that is the right thing as well as the best thing you can do.

Trust the Lord. Trust that on a matter of such eternal significance that even if you don't trust yourself, that he is powerful enough to find a way to answer you in a manner you will be able to trust.

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While none of of us here know the full extent of the issue, there is something I'd like to add.

It is a well known occurrence that victims can become abusers. While not all victims become such, I think a majority of those who become abusive were once abused.

The question I have is where is this behavior coming from?

It seems apparent that he does not have any problems with his own children but that it is the children of other men that he struggles with.

Why?

What is it in his past and in past relationships that have lead this?

Find out and you may win half the battle right then and there because once the causes are known, steps can be taken to resolve them.

Another thought.

Say you do divorce your husband. Do you know who will be overjoyed?

Satan.

He wants to destroy your family either from within or by causing it to break apart. While he may win if you don't divorce, how is his victory not guaranteed if you do?

The way I would personally approach it is this.

Unless I have received direct council from priesthood authority or from the Lord to divorce my spouse, I will not. Such a decision has eternal repercussions. I know that I am not wise enough to make such a critical decision based on my own limited understanding and wisdom.

I can relate to your concerns and feelings regarding correctly understanding the Lord's will. Though I feel the spirit clearly, I get frustrated sometimes by the difficulty I have in interpreting it.

Seek his revelation and guidance for he can council you better than anyone on earth and definitely everyone on this thread =). Yes you may have to struggle in prayer but it will be worth it for what ever the Lord councils you to do, that is the right thing as well as the best thing you can do.

Trust the Lord. Trust that on a matter of such eternal significance that even if you don't trust yourself, that he is powerful enough to find a way to answer you in a manner you will be able to trust.

I can't believe you. What the heck? You KNOW that the lord would NEVER want someone to be abused by a step parent nor a spouse to allow abuse to happen to a child. Abuse should NEVER be tolerated. She is NOT making the wrong decision to DIVORCE her husband on the grounds of abuse. You have NO RIGHT to tell her that devil is playing into it. The only person on the face of the earth that is responsible for a person is the person themselves actions that is over age 18.

Why are you playing mind games here? Her husband is the one that is ABUSING HER SON! An adult male DECIDED to PUT HIS HANDS on him. AduLT MALE decided to make an violent move on the poor kid. The adult male has done this over and over again because he decides to lose it WITHOUT any THOUGHT to the consquences of extremely hurting the poor kid. How in the heck can you encourage her to stay with a lose cannon? If I didn't know better I'd say that this man is on some sort of illegal drugs.

How in the world do you EVEN SLEEP AT NIGHT? Honestly how would you feel if she came on here one day saying that her husband made her son die at the hands of her husband? Nobody is standing up for the child except for the dad at this point in time. Somebody has to be voice that protects this little kid at all costs. I rest my case.

This hits home to me. I think I need to check out out of this subject.

To the OP I hope that you make the right decision.

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While none of of us here know the full extent of the issue, there is something I'd like to add.

It is a well known occurrence that victims can become abusers. While not all victims become such, I think a majority of those who become abusive were once abused.

The question I have is where is this behavior coming from?

It seems apparent that he does not have any problems with his own children but that it is the children of other men that he struggles with.

Why?

What is it in his past and in past relationships that have lead this?

Find out and you may win half the battle right then and there because once the causes are known, steps can be taken to resolve them.

Another thought.

Say you do divorce your husband. Do you know who will be overjoyed?

Satan.

He wants to destroy your family either from within or by causing it to break apart. While he may win if you don't divorce, how is his victory not guaranteed if you do?

The way I would personally approach it is this.

Unless I have received direct council from priesthood authority or from the Lord to divorce my spouse, I will not. Such a decision has eternal repercussions. I know that I am not wise enough to make such a critical decision based on my own limited understanding and wisdom.

I can relate to your concerns and feelings regarding correctly understanding the Lord's will. Though I feel the spirit clearly, I get frustrated sometimes by the difficulty I have in interpreting it.

Seek his revelation and guidance for he can council you better than anyone on earth and definitely everyone on this thread =). Yes you may have to struggle in prayer but it will be worth it for what ever the Lord councils you to do, that is the right thing as well as the best thing you can do.

Trust the Lord. Trust that on a matter of such eternal significance that even if you don't trust yourself, that he is powerful enough to find a way to answer you in a manner you will be able to trust.

I apologize if I offended you it wasn't my intentiion. I realize that we are going to agree to disagree on some things. Every individual has a right to express their own opinion. I apologize.

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I can't believe you. What the heck? You KNOW that the lord would NEVER want someone to be abused by a step parent nor a spouse to allow abuse to happen to a child. Abuse should NEVER be tolerated.

What qualifies as "abuse", rose? If a father swats his three-year-old on the bottom, is that abuse? If he says "You messed up everything!" is that sufficient to qualify? What if he speaks sharply to his daughter and makes her cry? More abuse?

It's very, very easy to be the "hero" and decry all "abuse", saying such things as "NO ONE should tolerate ANY abuse EVAR!!!11!!!one!!" But things are not always quite so clear where the rubber meets the road. Children who grow up without a father's influence do much worse, generally speaking. Is it really useful to destroy families over anything that might be claimed as "abuse"?

She is NOT making the wrong decision to DIVORCE her husband on the grounds of abuse.

By what possible authority do you, some anonymous internet participant, make this judgment?

You have NO RIGHT to tell her that devil is playing into it.

So let's see if I understand correctly: He has NO RIGHT to suggest that leaving her husband might be wrong, even Satanically inspired; but you DO have the right to advise her in no uncertain terms to leave her husband.

Do I have that right?

The only person on the face of the earth that is responsible for a person is the person themselves actions that is over age 18.

Strange how we baptize eight-year-olds, then.

Why are you playing mind games here? Her husband is the one that is ABUSING HER SON!

How do you know? Based on what she wrote anonymously here?

Did you notice that her concern was for her son's promising hockey career?

An adult male DECIDED to PUT HIS HANDS on him. AduLT MALE decided to make an violent move on the poor kid. The adult male has done this over and over again because he decides to lose it WITHOUT any THOUGHT to the consquences of extremely hurting the poor kid.

So if it had been an adult female, it would have been okay, then.

If I didn't know better I'd say that this man is on some sort of illegal drugs.

Just curious: How do you know better? You seem to be assuming that you have a great deal of knowledge that it appears you don't really have at all.

This hits home to me. I think I need to check out out of this subject.

Yes, I think you're right. You seem to have lost all perspective on this issue.

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I'm sorry I offended you and I hope my explination helps.

AshleyAdair came to us seeking advice. Now we both agree that this is a volitile subject for many.

You're right that the Lord does not want someone to be abused by a parent. He also doesn't want people to divorce each other if it can at all be avoided.

Satan's after all of us whether we like it or not. Is it possible that further children will be traumatized because of abuse? Yes and if that happens he wins. If her family is broken through divorce? He wins as well.

I don't even know for sure whether or not abuse has happened. Like Vort, I can't conclude based off of the information she has provided whether or not he has and if so to what degree.

I do know that if she leaves him then in addition to needing to become the provider and loosing that time with her children, her youngest will loose their father the same way that she has lost her son. To trade one child for the other in such a fashion? It's a hard decision either way.

In this situation I really don't feel qualified to advise her one way or the other. Right now there currently isn't any abuse. Sadly this is because the son is no longer in the home. Yet this gives her time to find out what the Lord would have her do and this is what I recommended.

So my next question was, what does her priesthood leader council? After all he has the rights of stewardship and can guide her better in this matter than either I or you right?

In rereading her original post, I see that he is not endorsing divorce but rather patience and endurance and love.

The question then becomes whether or not this is the Lord's council as well.

I'm sorry you feel like I'm playing mind games.

You feel I don't have any right to state the truth that the adversary is very involved in this situation. I know he is.

I feel none of us have any right to council her to get a divorce let alone council her contrary to her bishop.

How would any of us feel if we counciled divorce and later in heaven found out that we were wrong to do so and that because of it children grew up without a father and a wife lost an eternal marriage?

I don't judge you prettyrose for your words or hold them against you. I feel I understand why you wrote them and I feel for you. I'm sorry you've been hurt. I'm sorry that it was at the hands of a man.

I know how hard it can be to forgive but oh I promise you it's worth it. The pain, the anguish and the sorrow you feel can be wiped away to be replaced by peace and love. Seek the Lord's help and he will help you.

I'll pray for you prettyrose and for you Ashley. May you each find what you seek.

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What is it in his past and in past relationships that have lead this?

Find out and you may win half the battle right then and there because once the causes are known, steps can be taken to resolve them.

You know, this is something I used to think about my ex. Problem is, I KNEW why he had problems with abusive behavior. And so did he. But that knowledge didn't do me any good, because HE wouldn't do what was necessary to act on it. That is a good question to be asking, if the one with the problem (her husband, not her) is willing to do something about it.

I thought it was my job to help him overcome his problems, but it wasn't. It was a job far too big for me that I couldn't take on for myself. Fixing her husbands internal issues is not her job- sure she can help if doing so is not putting her or others in harms way- but the job is his and the Lord's. No one elses. Her job is to protect her children, even if that means protecting them from her husband, as heartbreaking as that is.

Now, I also understand that we don't know all the details- if this is just something small that her ex decided to make a big deal by getting a restraining order or if this man is really abusive. However- it is my opinion that if for any reason at anytime someone feels as though they or their children are unsafe, they should do whatever it takes to regain that feeling of safety. Whether anyone has actually been physically harmed or not, we should never be put in a situation that our spouse causes us to feel unsafe. To me, that is the key of deciding whether or not abuse has occurred. And then- maintaining that safety is far more important than internally fixing the one causing you to feel unsafe.

Another thought.

Say you do divorce your husband. Do you know who will be overjoyed?

Satan.

I'm sorry Martain. I feel I may be taking this response a bit too personally- but that is the biggest line of close-minded bull I've ever read. Yes, Satan likes to break up families. Yes, he likes to see people get divorced and make life all muddied for everyone. But a divorce is not ALWAYS a bad thing. There are exceptions. There are situations where a divorce "saves" a marriage that was far too broken and restores peace and safety to those who were trapped in a horrible situation.

You might also like to note that- as far as I can see at least, I may have overlooked something- nobody on here has adviced her to divorce her husband... YET. That may be something she may have to resort to if things don't get better, but so far people here have only adviced her to protect her children and to leave if she feels she needs to for safety.

A line like yours above is exactly the kind of line that leads an individual to stay in a dangerous marriage until it may be too late. It makes it sound like it is the fault of the one doing the leaving for breaking up the marriage, that if she says "I won't put up with this" and actually doesn't put up with it- walks out- that she has fallen right into Satan's hands instead of walking into freedom. If her husband is a danger to her and/or her children, she has every right to leave him and seek protection. The Lord will not frown on her for that.

So my next question was, what does her priesthood leader council? After all he has the rights of stewardship and can guide her better in this matter than either I or you right?

While her bishop is her steward, he is also human and prone to error. He ccan't see everything. It is also very rare for a bishop to ever ever council someone to divorce, even if divorce may be the best course.

You are right that this is a matter she should take up with the Lord in prayer. She is in a difficult situation, and it is difficult for anonymous members of a board to offer advice when we can't see the whole picture. The Lord can though, but clear answers to prayer are best found when we study a matter out first. I think it would be a good idea, in this situation, to read up on exactly what abuse is. What it looks like, the different forms it takes, signs of danger, etc. Then, Ashley can figure out for herself, with her own personal and indepth knowledge of her situation, whether what her husband has done and is doing constitutes abuse. With that knowledge, she can then go before the Lord in prayer to figure out what she should do.

Edited by JudoMinja
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I do think that allowing your husband to physically punish your son in the first place was a bad idea. I do think there is significance in the fact that he has a problem with the boy from your first marriage. I think the problem in the relationship stems possibly from the boy reminding your husband of your first husband, and he is jealous.

The fact that he does not do this to the other children tells me that he is not foremost an abuser, but is an abuser because of another issue. I would suggest counseling with family services for your husband. He needs to work out his anger issue toward that particular child, and ask forgiveness for what he did.

Whether or not you should divorce, I don't know. Divorcing him might not say, "I love you," to your son, since you allowed it to happen in the first place. See if your husband is willing to accept that he did something wrong, and if he is ready to go to counseling about it. While I do believe that anything can be repented of, really the only advice I can give is maybe to fast and go to the temple and pray. Whatever answer you get, follow it. Don't make a decision out of anger, you will always question it later in life when your anger has cooled. Make a decision based on all of the information and then pray.

You know in conversation about your son, it might help your husband understand just how bad it was by talking about the boy as a child of God. When you say, "I don't like what you did to my son...." it might hit home more if you point out the individual worth of the child, and his eternal nature. My, yours, whichever, that is a child of God and should be treated as such regardless of where the genes came from.

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You have a tough row to hoe here, either way, and I cannot advise you what to do, but I did have a couple of thoughts on details that I hope will be helpful.

This jumped out at me big:

"My husband and 10 year old son have been at odds for our entire relationship."

This doesn't make any sense to me. An adult man and a 10 year old boy are not equals in a relationship so that they can BE at "odds" with each other. There are (about) two choices. 1) Either your son has some life difficulties as a child trying to grow, in which case he ought to be surrounded by the love and parenting/uncle-ing/friend-ing skill of ALL ADULT MALES IN HIS LIFE. So there can be no "at odds" adult male who is actually parenting. 2) or two, your adult male you have married is the one "at odds" in which case what possible interpersonal skills or response could a ten year old boy have other than to have a dysfunction in response to dysfunction? what other model does he have? how can he HANDLE a misbehaving adult male, is he supposed to?

Also, the Lord is NEVER going to tell your bishop the decision(s) you should make about your marriage. Never. The Lord will tell YOU (or you and your husband, if you are able to seek revelation together). Don't even put this kind of decision on your bishop.

I am less concerned about the physical assaults (I don't believe in punishing children, nor in assaulting them bodily in any way, so take that from my point of view) than I am in the bullying your son has had to experience at the hands of an adult male, something you would never permit him to pass through if he was experiencing this, say, at school.

Again, I do not know what your decision should be, as you have 5 children to consider, as you say. But what ever decision you make I hope you STOP EXCUSING yourself and your husband for your misbehaviors and laying the consequences at the feet of your children. I say this strongly, but this is what I had to learn for myself to. Been there, done that.

Do you think your youngest child likes experiencing favor from his father and yet watching how he treats the others? I don't think this is necessarily healthy for him/her either.

Anyway, I am re-reading this and I think I'm being a little too strong, but at the same time, what I really want is to encourage you to courage and clear thinking, and trust yourself. Even if you decide to remain in the marriage, some things must change. They must. You can do it. The Lord is with YOU.

Edited by MaidservantX
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Guest mirancs8

With all due respect we all do not react or deal with abusive situations the same. Considering the limited information we have from the OP regarding the situation it seem a bit quick on your part to place such guilt and judgement on the OP's situation.

Abuse is complicated. We can do far greater in supporting the OP rather then making the OP feel shame and guilt.

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Shame on you for making your son endure 7 years with this abusive man. You should leave now. I hope your son can forgive you.

Shouldn’t we all hope for forgiveness?

None of us including her son has any excuse not to forgive. That excuse was taken away with the atonement. It might take time, but the love for his mother and a desire for inner peace will put him on the right path, forgiveness will come. He might even eventually forgive his Step-Father.

From what the OP has stated she has hardly sat on the sidelines. It looks like it's been a constant issue between her and her husband. Consider how she is trying to be an example of to her children of love, forgiveness and patience while teaching them obedience, respect and responsibility. She is stuck between a husband that is acting like a child and a child that is rebelling, between commitment, covenant, security and responsibility, love, possible poverty and another failed marriage. It’s not easy, not for any of us.

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Abuse of any kind is never acceptable. However a couple of things that you said stuck with me. You said your husband has learned toleave the girls alone and that there has always been a problem with the son. You have told us about your husband b ut not the kids.

A family in our ward is going through a similar situation now. The son (16) is actively working to break up his mothers marriage and she is siding with him when he is given chores and he doesn't want to do them etc.

What was the understanding going into the marriage? Was it made clear to the kids that although this was not their dad and never would be that they were expected to be respectful to your new husband? The husband sounds like he may have a jealousy issues and is handling it very badly, but it also sounds, by omission, that the kids have chosen sides and nothing is going to change things. Where are you in this mess? Serious talking needs to be done ... maybe even professional help for the entire family. Good luck.

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  • 2 weeks later...

MrMarklin,

Am I correct in understanding that you advocate that she separate or even divorce her husband? That you are implying she is worthy of condemnation for not doing sooner? That those of us who recommend differently are also worthy of condemnation?

For that is how I interpret your comments and your casting of shame.

I feel no blame at your insinuation for I spoke what was in my heart which was devoid of a desire to wound anyone.

It has been my understanding that there is no need for evidence as a requirement for a restraining order to be granted. That basically, anyone who wanted one could have one taken out.

Burden of proof and misuse

Misuse of restraining orders is claimed to be widespread. Elaine Epstein, former president of the Massachusetts Bar Association, has remarked, “Everyone knows that restraining orders and orders to vacate are granted to virtually all who apply…In many cases, allegations of abuse are now used for tactical advantage.”

A 1995 study conducted by the Massachusetts Trial Court that reviewed domestic restraining orders issued in the state found that less than half of the orders involved even an allegation of violence. Similarly a West Virginia study found eight out of 10 orders were unnecessary or false.[4] The low burden of proof for restraining orders has led to some high-profile cases involving stalkers of celebrities obtaining restraining orders against their targets. American TV host David Letterman had such a restraining order temporarily imposed upon him in 2005. (Reference)

So even though a restraining order was given, I do not feel I can use it as evidence to accurately conclude either way based on the information given me.

I am sorry you feel to condemn some of us in this thread so and hope you will forgive us and understand. No one here is against the punishment of true abuse or against an individual doing what they need to do to become safe from an abusive situation.

Some of us have simply determined that there isn't enough evidence to conclude either way and rather then judge falsely, we will not judge at all and will instead leave it in the hands of those whose are in a better position to do so correctly, namely herself with the guidance of her priesthood leader and the Lord.

Edited by Martain
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MrMarklin,

Am I correct in understanding that you advocate that she separate or even divorce her husband? That you are implying she is worthy of condemnation for not doing sooner? That those of us who recommend differently are also worthy of condemnation?

For that is how I interpret your comments and your casting of shame.

I feel no blame at your insinuation for I spoke what was in my heart which was devoid of a desire to wound anyone.

It has been my understanding that there is no need for evidence as a requirement for a restraining order to be granted. That basically, anyone who wanted one could have one taken out.

So even though a restraining order was given, I do not feel I can use it as evidence to accurately conclude either way based on the information given me.

I am sorry you feel to condemn some of us in this thread so and hope you will forgive us and understand. No one here is against the punishment of true abuse or against an individual doing what they need to do to become safe from an abusive situation.

Some of us have simply determined that there isn't enough evidence to conclude either way and rather then judge falsely, we will not judge at all and will instead leave it in the hands of those whose are in a better position to do so correctly, namely herself with the guidance of her priesthood leader and the Lord.

Hi Martain,

I guess I am taking a definite side here. The OP states that physical punishment, and by the quoting the statements of her husband, verbal abuse has been going on for 7 years. Then she states that her ex obtained a restraining order. This is the OP's own admission.

I think the OP has indicted herself and not properly protected her son. Remember this all started when the boy was three years old!

I don't think I'm being over judgemental or harsh at all.

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