Son of God?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

If you do not believe in the premortal existence--then how can one believe that Christ existed prior to His birth to Mary?

He's the Son of God. I'm not.

How does that statement compare with the scriptures:

St John1:12--"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"

[Dravin]

What example of Christ, in principle--do you find alien to all of mankind?

What theory of the core of the earth do you find most likely? That it consists of Gruyere or that it consists of Muenster?

[prisonchaplain]

A created son of God is not the same as the one and only Son of God, Jesus Christ. I am truly confused here...are you suggesting that we are co-equal and co-eternal with Jesus Christ???

[Vort]

Yum...Münster...aaaaaaaaahhhhhhh...so stinky...so tasty...must...get...to...center...of...earth...

[Dravin]

Yum...Münster...aaaaaaaaahhhhhhh...so stinky...so tasty...must...get...to...center...of...earth...

Personally I like the thought of tapping into a massive personal stash of Muenster cheese, but I'm thinking the Gruyere theory has the leg up where the data are concerned.

[rameumptom]

We can be co-eternal and co-equal with Christ in LDS teachings. Paul taught that we are "heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ". That's rather clear for LDS to understand. For those who believe in Trinity, man can never be true "heirs of God and co-heirs of Christ" because we cannot inherit anything and everything God is.

When the apostle John states in Revelation that we will sit on his throne with him and reign with him, it means different things to LDS and Trinitarians. For us, sitting on his throne makes us divine beings, even as Christ is, of the exact same substance. It is not interpreted that way by Trinitarians. By definition, if God is a Trinity God, then we can never really be like him. It is not a literal adoption, because God will not or cannot give to us all he has and is.

[rameumptom]

Dravin, both theories are absolutely wrong. I have it on good speculation that it is a mixture of Colby and Provolone.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

The "Only Begotten" Son--yes. Since we are all spirit children of God the Father--then that designation of the Son, as the "Only Begotten"--- takes on a unique meaning which could only be found in the flesh.

Hebrews12:9--"Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?"

"Only begotten" has been translated as "One and only."

OK--but even if it was translated as "one and only" Son--that does not solve the problem, for this simple reason:

St John1:12--"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"

Obviously--if there are indeed other sons of God--then Christ is not the one and only.

The only answer, for me--is that is a direct reference to the flesh--where Jesus CHrist is the One and Only Son to ever be born to this earth that had a Heavenly Father and an earthly mother.

In that--Jesus Christ is unique, as a Son--the "one and only".

Christ did not claim unique status, as far as His spirit is concerned:

St John20:17--"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

Jesus is uniquely God's Son,

I agree--in the flesh--there is no other that has been born according to that pattern. But all spirits are Fathered by the same Father.

because they are the same essence--they share a co-equal, co-eternal existence as the Godhead.

I see no such explanation within the Biblical text. But I do see this:

St John17:21-22--"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:"

We do not share that with the Father. We are his children by creation.

And this is how they are created, according to the Bible, as to the spirit:

Hebrews12:9--"Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?"

[rameumptom]

LDS theology is that there is a premortal existence. Prior to being spirit children of God, we were what is called Intelligences (there are various theories on what this means). D&C 88 an 93 discusses key things we do believe about Intelligences. Abraham 3 teaches that an "organized Intelligence" is a spirit.

We believe that Christ was our spirit brother in the premortal existence. Due to his faithfulness and being the First Begotten, he was taken into the Godhead by the Father and agreed to be our Savior in this life. But God, Jesus and we are all of the same substance in the LDS belief. Therefore, we can literally be heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ. We will always honor Christ as our Savior, recognizing we could not have returned without his great sacrifice. And so, while he will share all with us, we will still see him as our Savior.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

If you do not believe in the premortal existence--then how can one believe that Christ existed prior to His birth to Mary?

Originally Posted by prisonchaplain View Post

He's the Son of God. I'm not.

dberrie---How does that statement compare with the scriptures:

St John1:12--"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"

A created son of God is not the same as the one and only Son of God, Jesus Christ.

True, but still sons of God.

Even sons of God, as believers, are not the same as one another. But they are all sons of God, and heirs and joint heirs with Christ, as sons of God.

True--Christ is unique in many ways, in being our God, Savior, and Redeemer-- but not being a Son of God. All those who believe are given that title, as the scriptures show.

Again--Christ is unique, as the "Only Begotten" Son--in the flesh.

I am truly confused here...are you suggesting that we are co-equal and co-eternal with Jesus Christ???

First--could you show me the explanation or wording of "co-equal" or "co-eternal" within the scriptures?

I am suggesting that statements that we are not the sons of God--only Christ is, a false statement, when not qualified. The scriptures affirm that all who believe are given the power to become the sons of God.

What the scriptures do state is this:

St John17:21-22--"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:"

How do you relate that to co-equal?

[Shelly200]

LDS theology is that there is a premortal existence. Prior to being spirit children of God, we were what is called Intelligences (there are various theories on what this means). D&C 88 an 93 discusses key things we do believe about Intelligences. Abraham 3 teaches that an "organized Intelligence" is a spirit.

We believe that Christ was our spirit brother in the premortal existence. Due to his faithfulness and being the First Begotten, he was taken into the Godhead by the Father and agreed to be our Savior in this life. But God, Jesus and we are all of the same substance in the LDS belief. Therefore, we can literally be heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ. We will always honor Christ as our Savior, recognizing we could not have returned without his great sacrifice. And so, while he will share all with us, we will still see him as our Savior.

This is honestly something I just thought of and am curious: 1.) if "God, Jesus, and we are all of the same substance" then what makes God worthy of worship? If He's just the same as every other person, why worship Him and not anyone else? I mean, if we're surrounded by people who are on their way to godhood through exaltation, why not worship each other, since we're going to be gods after death, just like the Father, anyway? That may sounds silly, but to Trinitarians, the idea that God is not the same species as Man is vital to our reasoning for worshiping Him: He is divine, He is our Creator, He has always and will always exist, He is of completely separate Being than us, and is therefore worthy of our worship, honor, and praise. To me, and I would think to many Trinitarians, it is a completely foreign concept to worship a God who is essentially the same exact kind of creature that I am, just... farther along in existence.... I'd be interested in anyone's thoughts on this matter.

2.) I've heard an LDS member say that the LDS do not worship Jesus. And I've heard an LDS member say that the LDS do worship Jesus... so... do the LDS worship Jesus? And the Holy Ghost? Or just the Father? (I watched a clip on Youtube from the official LDS site by an LDS church leader answering the question of if the LDS are Christians. Even he said that the LDS believe in Him, pray in His name, etc. but he never said they worshiped him. So I'm still wondering about that.)

3.) If the way to eternal exaltation is through temple marriage, and the LDS believe that Christ was exalted, then how did Jesus become part of the Godhead if He never had an eternal marriage?

[Dr T]

I agree with your thoughts Shelly

[dberrie2000]

This is honestly something I just thought of and am curious: 1.) if "God, Jesus, and we are all of the same substance" then what makes God worthy of worship? If He's just the same as every other person, why worship Him and not anyone else? I mean, if we're surrounded by people who are on their way to godhood through exaltation, why not worship each other, since we're going to be gods after death, just like the Father, anyway? That may sounds silly, but to Trinitarians, the idea that God is not the same species as Man is vital to our reasoning for worshiping Him: He is divine, He is our Creator, He has always and will always exist, He is of completely separate Being than us, and is therefore worthy of our worship, honor, and praise. To me, and I would think to many Trinitarians, it is a completely foreign concept to worship a God who is essentially the same exact kind of creature that I am, just... farther along in existence.... I'd be interested in anyone's thoughts on this matter.

2.) I've heard an LDS member say that the LDS do not worship Jesus. And I've heard an LDS member say that the LDS do worship Jesus... so... do the LDS worship Jesus? And the Holy Ghost? Or just the Father? (I watched a clip on Youtube from the official LDS site by an LDS church leader answering the question of if the LDS are Christians. Even he said that the LDS believe in Him, pray in His name, etc. but he never said they worshiped him. So I'm still wondering about that.)

The LDS worship Jesus Christ as Lord, Savior, and Redeemer of the world.

As to substance--how does flesh and blood differ from our own substance:

Luke24:39--"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

[Justice]

1.) if "God, Jesus, and we are all of the same substance" then what makes God worthy of worship?

The Father is glorified and perfected. He has walked the walk; He knows the path to be trod. He is our Father/creator, and does all that He does for our benefit. His entire creation is for us, not Him.

To me, the most sincere form of worship is emulation. It's more than just wanting to be like Him, but worship in it's most sincere form is actually being like Him.

I want to be like Him. My hope is through Christ that I one day can. Anything less, and I don't think it's pure worship.

2.) do the LDS worship Jesus?

This all depends on what you mean by worship. Jesus was our perfect example... of the Father. We emulate Jesus so we can become like the Father. Jesus never invited worship or praise, but gave all praise and glory (or worship) to the Father.

I would say that the Father probably says somthing like if you want to be like me you must first learn to be like Jesus. So, there may be a fine line. The intent is to worship the Father, and that is who we pray to. But, we have a perfect example to emulate... Jesus.

3.) If the way to eternal exaltation is through temple marriage, and the LDS believe that Christ was exalted, then how did Jesus become part of the Godhead if He never had an eternal marriage?

Whether Christ was actually married on earth is a whole different discussion, but I'm guessing you mean married before He was born as a man.

Where did you hear that Christ "was exalted" and that it was a pre-requisite for being a member of the Godhead?

Edited December 22, 2011 by Justice

[dberrie2000]

3.) If the way to eternal exaltation is through temple marriage, and the LDS believe that Christ was exalted, then how did Jesus become part of the Godhead if He never had an eternal marriage?

Jesus Christ was exalted by His Father:

Acts5:31--"Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins."

That seems to indicate that God the Son was not in full possession of all things before earth life, which Hebrews confirms:

Hebrews1:2-5--"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Jesus Christ obtained those at a particular point, and was not in full possession of them always.

[maiku]

This is honestly something I just thought of and am curious: 1.) if "God, Jesus, and we are all of the same substance" then what makes God worthy of worship? If He's just the same as every other person, why worship Him and not anyone else? I mean, if we're surrounded by people who are on their way to godhood through exaltation, why not worship each other, since we're going to be gods after death, just like the Father, anyway? That may sounds silly, but to Trinitarians, the idea that God is not the same species as Man is vital to our reasoning for worshiping Him: He is divine, He is our Creator, He has always and will always exist, He is of completely separate Being than us, and is therefore worthy of our worship, honor, and praise. To me, and I would think to many Trinitarians, it is a completely foreign concept to worship a God who is essentially the same exact kind of creature that I am, just... farther along in existence.... I'd be interested in anyone's thoughts on this matter.

How does God being a separate being make Him worthy of worship? The fact that he's different makes Him worthy of worship? Just being "different" shouldn't qualify someone to be worshipped.

We worship the Father because He loved us enough to create us, provide a plan for our eternal happiness, and even send His only begotten (not Himself in corporal form) as a sacrifice to save us from our sins.

I don't worship any human on earth because no one has done any of that for me.

[maiku]

This is honestly something I just thought of and am curious: 1.) if "God, Jesus, and we are all of the same substance" then what makes God worthy of worship? If He's just the same as every other person, why worship Him and not anyone else? I mean, if we're surrounded by people who are on their way to godhood through exaltation, why not worship each other, since we're going to be gods after death, just like the Father, anyway? That may sounds silly, but to Trinitarians, the idea that God is not the same species as Man is vital to our reasoning for worshiping Him: He is divine, He is our Creator, He has always and will always exist, He is of completely separate Being than us, and is therefore worthy of our worship, honor, and praise. To me, and I would think to many Trinitarians, it is a completely foreign concept to worship a God who is essentially the same exact kind of creature that I am, just... farther along in existence.... I'd be interested in anyone's thoughts on this matter.

Another point to think about.

God's ultimate gift to us is eternal life, I think we can both agree on that, even if the details might differ.

We also agree (I think) that we will continue learning beyond this life.

Now what would be the inevitable conclusion of putting the two together? If we continue learning forever, without limitation, we would reach a point of omniscience. Thanks to God's plan for our eternal salvation, we would be all knowing, immortal beings. Doesn't that sound like a god to you? All knowing, righteous, immortal.

Are we not children of God? Is it not by definition a child's destiny to become like his/her parents?

The logic concerning exaltation (as we call it) is resoundingly solid.

These are my thoughts on this matter?

[prisonchaplain]

True, but still sons of God. Even sons of God, as believers, are not the same as one another. But they are all sons of God, and heirs and joint heirs with Christ, as sons of God.

A huge difference, for traditionalists, is that we believe Jesus is the eternal Son of God. Always has been, is, and always will be. We, on the other hand, were created to become small-s sons of God. We are adopted, grafted in, through the line of Abraham, and by the shed blood of Jesus. So, it is glorious. It is exaltation. However, we do not become what Jesus is, for He is the only capitol-S Son of God--one who was not created, but has always been.

First--could you show me the explanation or wording of "co-equal" or "co-eternal" within the scriptures?

In the beginning (i.e. at creation) was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John) In Colossians Jesus creates everything that was made, for his own pleasure. In Hebrews 1 the angels are commanded by the Father to worship Jesus, after which He addresses his son as big-G God.

I am suggesting that statements that we are not the sons of God--only Christ is, a false statement,

Indeed it is. Who said that? I'll be happy to correct them.

On the other hand, only Jesus is the Son of God.

22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:"

How do you relate that to co-equal?

Why is it necessary to take a passage in which Jesus prays for Christian unity, and attempt to apply that to a metaphysical discussion about God's nature?

[rameumptom]

There are some issues with translation in the things PC paraphrased as to Christ's unique son ship.

For example, John 1 from the Greek literally states: "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with THE God and the Word was God." There is a clear difference between THE God and (a) God.

And why is it necessary to take passages which show God is anthropomorphic and attempt to apply them as a metaphor to God's nature?

[Shelly200]

The LDS worship Jesus Christ as Lord, Savior, and Redeemer of the world.

This all depends on what you mean by worship. Jesus was our perfect example... of the Father. We emulate Jesus so we can become like the Father. Jesus never invited worship or praise, but gave all praise and glory (or worship) to the Father.

I would say that the Father probably says somthing like if you want to be like me you must first learn to be like Jesus. So, there may be a fine line. The intent is to worship the Father, and that is who we pray to. But, we have a perfect example to emulate... Jesus.

This is my problem... I hear some people say one thing, and some people say something else. Perhaps it is a discrepancy with the word "worship." If dberrie is equating "worship" with the definition Justice gave, then dberrie would be correct in saying the LDS worship Jesus if this is the definition used.

The problem, I think, is that I don't think many, if any, non-LDS view "worship" and anything having to do with emulating Christ. Do we emulate Christ? Yes, but I don't think we see that as worshiping Him. So I would think that, in LDS terms, the LDS worship Christ. But in non-LDS terms, the LDS only worship the Father.

(What about the Holy Ghost? Worship? Emulate? Neither?)

I think it boils down to different definitions to the same words again. But I think it has cleared up my question, so I thank you both for your responses.

[Shelly200]

Whether Christ was actually married on earth is a whole different discussion, but I'm guessing you mean married before He was born as a man.

Where did you hear that Christ "was exalted" and that it was a pre-requisite for being a member of the Godhead?

I thought Christ joining the Godhead went like this: Jesus was the first-born spirit child of God, along with the rest of us. So, He wasn't in the Godhead yet. He was chosen to save Mankind and show us the way to exaltation. So He received a physical body, just like the rest of us. Lived on Earth and follow God's commands, and then died and was exalted. However, since He was specially chosen, then He was exalted into the Father's Godhead.... I don't really know how the Holy Ghost fits into the equation.

Is this completely wrong? I might be mashing up different things I've heard into one story.

As to Christ marrying, I did not mean before He was born. I meant: if Christ was to show us how to be exalted, and one of the prerequisites to exaltation is eternal marriage, then wouldn't Christ have married, so that we would emulate His example?

[Shelly200]

How does God being a separate being make Him worthy of worship? The fact that he's different makes Him worthy of worship? Just being "different" shouldn't qualify someone to be worshipped.

We worship the Father because He loved us enough to create us, provide a plan for our eternal happiness, and even send His only begotten (not Himself in corporal form) as a sacrifice to save us from our sins.

I don't worship any human on earth because no one has done any of that for me.

Simply being different does not make God worthy of worship; it's *how* He's different. He is God. We are not. He is Divine, Love, Existence, Creator. We are not. I did not mean to imply that simply being different was enough; I apologize.

[prisonchaplain]

The problem, I think, is that I don't think many, if any, non-LDS view "worship" and anything having to do with emulating Christ. Do we emulate Christ? Yes, but I don't think we see that as worshiping Him. So I would think that, in LDS terms, the LDS worship Christ. But in non-LDS terms, the LDS only worship the Father.

(What about the Holy Ghost? Worship? Emulate? Neither?)

I think it boils down to different definitions to the same words again. But I think it has cleared up my question, so I thank you both for your responses.

You make a good point. Somehow, when the Father tells all God's angels to worship Jesus, I do not think He had in mind some type of discipleship program where the angels would learn to be christlike. Likewise, in passages like Revelation 5, where the angels are declaring honor and glory to the Lamb, who alone is worthy...I'm doubting that they were trying to find ways to be like Christ--especially since they describe his crucifixion in the passage.

Edited December 22, 2011 by prisonchaplain

[Shelly200]

Another point to think about.

God's ultimate gift to us is eternal life, I think we can both agree on that, even if the details might differ.

We also agree (I think) that we will continue learning beyond this life.

Now what would be the inevitable conclusion of putting the two together? If we continue learning forever, without limitation, we would reach a point of omniscience. Thanks to God's plan for our eternal salvation, we would be all knowing, immortal beings. Doesn't that sound like a god to you? All knowing, righteous, immortal.

Are we not children of God? Is it not by definition a child's destiny to become like his/her parents?

The logic concerning exaltation (as we call it) is resoundingly solid.

These are my thoughts on this matter?

While no one knows with 100% certainty what happens after death, I do not view it in this way. I believe more things will be revealed to us when we die, but I don't think it will make us gods. Because only God will have the *power.* Even if God bestows on us eternal life and knowledge, God alone will have all power. Revelation says we will spend our days worshiping God and singing His praises. Because He will still be God, and we will not. We can share, in a sense, in His divinity, but we cannot be Divine, we cannot be God.

To me, it is important to remember that we can become *like* God, but we cannot become God or become a god. We can share in God's divinity, but we will have none of our own.

Honestly, I'm not that worried about the particulars of Heaven as much. This concept is extremely important to the LDS, but most non-LDS simply think of it in terms of getting to Heaven, and then will just find out what it's like when we get there.

I have recently been introduced to the idea of levels of Heaven within the Catholic Church. I do not know anything, literally, on the subject, though, because no one has mentioned it to me until a couple of weeks ago. It's something I will likely research more to learn the official RCC stance. But for now all I worry about is worshiping the Lord and pleasing Him; I trust that if I work to please Him, then He will be merciful and allow me into Heaven, and then I'll see what goes on from there.

Any other non-LDS have comments? Don't leave me sitting here alone, guys!

[prisonchaplain]

So I went to the most authoritative source I could on worship (Google), and found this:

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTunWhVLPP_v3NPgyMSY1Mb_2imEjYhf40lQMQP1aLQ91oxwTep_4ifAtuNZw

Edited December 22, 2011 by prisonchaplain