Vort Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 So I went to the most authoritative source I could on worship (Google), and found this:Yeah, I find broken links all the time, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 It did not take me that long to repair the damage...but like a cable news network on a politician, so is Vort on poor ole PC...sigh...:-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maiku Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 You make a good point. Somehow, when the Father tells all God's angels to worship Jesus, I do not think He had in mind some type of discipleship program where the angels would learn to be christlike. Likewise, in passages like Revelation 5, where the angels are declaring honor and glory to the Lamb, who alone is worthy...I'm doubting that they were trying to find ways to be like Christ--especially since they describe his crucifixion in the passage.Yes, He alone was worthy to complete the mission He completed. Worship does not mean "emulate" Christ. We worship the Father in the name of Christ. This means that although we only worship (pray to, call our Father in Heaven) the Father, this is only possible through the atoning sacrifice of the Son. In this manner we pay reverence to the Son and worship the Father. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dberrie2000 Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 (edited) Originally Posted by Shelly200 View Post2.) do the LDS worship Jesus?Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostThe LDS worship Jesus Christ as Lord, Savior, and Redeemer of the world.Originally Posted by Justice View PostThis all depends on what you mean by worship. Jesus was our perfect example... of the Father. We emulate Jesus so we can become like the Father. Jesus never invited worship or praise, but gave all praise and glory (or worship) to the Father.I would say that the Father probably says somthing like if you want to be like me you must first learn to be like Jesus. So, there may be a fine line. The intent is to worship the Father, and that is who we pray to. But, we have a perfect example to emulate... Jesus.This is my problem... I hear some people say one thing, and some people say something else. Perhaps it is a discrepancy with the word "worship." If dberrie is equating "worship" with the definition Justice gave, then dberrie would be correct in saying the LDS worship Jesus if this is the definition used.It is a problem I have brought up to the stake presidency more than once. As a high councilor within our stake, I have seen this very response a number of times--and find it not rare to the LDS membership.It is a false doctrine. The LDS worship Jesus Christ as Lord, Savior, and Redeemer--period. There is no qualification nor clarification needed, as the LDS church is concerned.The membership, on occasion, belief that because the object of worship is the Father--that means that we do not worship the Son. All forms of worship pass through Jesus Christ first, and is the only form of worship the Father recognizes, and is the only true worship of the Father--the worship of His Son, as He is the Mediator between the Father and man. There is no such thing as circumventing the Son, and going straight to the Father, when referring to worship.I am looking at two notices from the LDS newsroom I have now--they start off with this line:"Like other Christians, we worship Jesus Christ as the divine Son of God."No clarification postulated--none needed. The LDS church recognizes this as a problem, that some members try to qualify this statement--or flat deny it, and it is a problem that infects even leadership itself.Since the high councilor speaks on the third Sundays in the different wards within the Stake--I have made this a point of clarification within my talks--that the membership not try to clarify this point, and certainly not to deny it--it digs deep holes of obscurity for the LDS church, and is a false doctrine.I have brought it up in the morning welfare meetings of the various wards--most are shocked to hear that some members take this stand--to deny or to clarify this doctrine--that the LDS accept God the Son as deity--and worship Him as Lord, Savior, and Redeemer.Shocking, indeed. Edited December 23, 2011 by dberrie2000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 It is a problem I have brought up to the stake presidency more than once. As a high councilor within our stake, I have seen this very response a number of times--and find it not rare to the LDS membership.It is a false doctrine. The LDS worship Jesus Christ as Lord, Savior, and Redeemer--period. There is no qualification nor clarification needed, as the LDS church is concerned.Elder McConkie, for one, seems to have disagreed with you:Let us set forth those doctrines and concepts that a gracious God has given to us in this day and which must be understood in order to gain eternal life. They are:1. We worship the Father and him only and no one else.We do not worship the Son, and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense--the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dberrie2000 Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 dberrie---St John17:22--"And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:"How do you relate that to co-equal?Why is it necessary to take a passage in which Jesus prays for Christian unity, and attempt to apply that to a metaphysical discussion about God's nature?Because it is not just Christian unity, as pertaining to the mortal--but as it relates to the oneness of God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ.If this oneness is the same for the Christians, as it for the Father and the Son, then co-equal is an application to all the disciples of Christ also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dberrie2000 Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 Elder McConkie, for one, seems to have disagreed with you:Let us set forth those doctrines and concepts that a gracious God has given to us in this day and which must be understood in order to gain eternal life. They are:1. We worship the Father and him only and no one else.We do not worship the Son, and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense--the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator.That probably would not be the only statement that McConkie made that the LDS church denied. This is the official church position, found on the Church Newsroom site:"Like other Christians, we worship Jesus Christ as the divine Son of God." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 That probably would not be the only statement that McConkie made that the LDS church denied. This is the official church position, found on the Church Newsroom site:"Like other Christians, we worship Jesus Christ as the divine Son of God."As far as I know, the Church has never denied this statement by Elder McConkie. He took pains to define what he intended by "worship", a word with many possible definitions, suggesting that there was a "full" or "complete" sense of worship that we reserve for the Father alone. I do not see the Church's official statement as necessarily denying this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted December 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 Why is it necessary to take a passage in which Jesus prays for Christian unity, and attempt to apply that to a metaphysical discussion about God's nature?It is necessary because the very scripture you're quoting does... not once, not twice, not three times, but...11 ...that they may be one, as we are.21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us... 22 ...that they may be one, even as we are one:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dberrie2000 Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 vort------Elder McConkie, for one, seems to have disagreed with you: Let us set forth those doctrines and concepts that a gracious God has given to us in this day and which must be understood in order to gain eternal life. They are: 1. We worship the Father and him only and no one else. We do not worship the Son, and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense--the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator.Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostThat probably would not be the only statement that McConkie made that the LDS church denied. This is the official church position, found on the Church Newsroom site:"Like other Christians, we worship Jesus Christ as the divine Son of God."As far as I know, the Church has never denied this statement by Elder McConkie.So--you do not see any conflict or denial in the two statements? :Bruce R McConkie--"We do not worship the Son,"LDS church--"Like other Christians, we worship Jesus Christ as the divine Son of God." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 So--you do not see any conflict or denial in the two statements? :Bruce R McConkie--"We do not worship the Son,"LDS church--"Like other Christians, we worship Jesus Christ as the divine Son of God."Did you really not read McConkie's entire quote in context? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dberrie2000 Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostSo--you do not see any conflict or denial in the two statements? :Bruce R McConkie--"We do not worship the Son,"LDS church--"Like other Christians, we worship Jesus Christ as the divine Son of God."Did you really not read McConkie's entire quote in context?Yes. But could you explain for me how the entire quote somehow mollifies the fact that any statement that the LDS do not worship Jesus Christ comes in direct conflict with the official church position--that the LDS worship Jesus Christ?Vort--it's a fact. The LDS worship Jesus Christ--and our sacrament meetings surround around that very doctrine--the worship of Jesus Christ as Lord, Savior, and Redeemer of the world. God the Son--as Deity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted December 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 We worship Him as the Son of God.We worship the Father as the God and Father of Christ the Son, and the God and Father of mankind.John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.Christ was our perfect example of how to worship the Father, so by emulating Him (or worshiping Him) we can truly worship the Father as Jesus did.We do worship Christ because we emulate Him. But, only because it's the perfect way to worship the Father... by doing what Jesus did. We worship the Father as the One True God, and Jesus Christ as His Son. If our devotion was to Christ only, He would not be pleased with our worship. He brings us to the Father, not to Himself. By "coming unto Christ" we are brought to the Father.There is a difference in the way we worship them. Our ultimate worship in the One True God should be directed toward The Father, through Jesus Christ. It is only through Jesus Christ we can approach the Father. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dberrie2000 Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 We worship Him as the Son of God.We worship the Father as the God and Father of Christ the Son, and the God and Father of mankind.John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.Christ was our perfect example of how to worship the Father, so by emulating Him (or worshiping Him) we can truly worship the Father as Jesus did.We do worship Christ because we emulate Him. But, only because it's the perfect way to worship the Father... by doing what Jesus did. We worship the Father as the One True God, and Jesus Christ as His Son. If our devotion was to Christ only, He would not be pleased with our worship. He brings us to the Father, not to Himself. By "coming unto Christ" we are brought to the Father.There is a difference in the way we worship them. Our ultimate worship in the One True God should be directed toward The Father, through Jesus Christ. It is only through Jesus Christ we can approach the Father.Although I do not disagree with the gist of your statements--I do take issue with this one comment.Could you explain what is meant by this statement--how is the worship of the Son any different from the worship of the Father? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted December 23, 2011 Report Share Posted December 23, 2011 Yes. But could you explain for me how the entire quote somehow mollifies the fact that any statement that the LDS do not worship Jesus Christ comes in direct conflict with the official church position--that the LDS worship Jesus Christ?McConkie's quote speaks for itself. (Well, figuratively speaking.) He defines a "full" sense of worship which, he says, applies only to the Father. Given that he spoke this as an apostle, I am slow to discard it as an aberration based on a general definition given by the Church on a web site.Consider: Do we pray to Jesus? We do not, not in any sense or at any time, unless he is physically standing in front of us. Do we make covenants with Jesus? I believe the answer is no, we do not. Our covenants are with the Father and with him alone.Now most definitions of worship include the idea of praying to the object of worship. Since we do not pray to Jesus, we cannot be said to worship him in that sense. As McConkie noted, in the sense of reverential awe, holding in sacred status, and considering as God, we do indeed worship Jesus. But McConkie defined what he called "worship in the true and saving sense," one that (apparently) includes prayer to and covenant-making with the object of worship, in which sense we worship the Father and the Father only.Vort--it's a fact. The LDS worship Jesus Christ--and our sacrament meetings surround around that very doctrine--the worship of Jesus Christ as Lord, Savior, and Redeemer of the world. God the Son--as Deity.The definition you cite is a general definition for worship, one with which I suspect even Elder McConkie would have agreed. It does not necessarily negate Elder McConkie's more narrowed definition of worship "in the true and saving sense".You seem quick to dismiss the teachings of an apostle that was and is held in high esteem by the current leadership of the Church. If the Church specifically teaches against something Elder McConkie said, then I accept the current teaching. But I see no reason to discard the teachings of an apostle based on a non-definitive line on the lds.org website. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dberrie2000 Posted December 23, 2011 Report Share Posted December 23, 2011 McConkie's quote speaks for itself. (Well, figuratively speaking.) He defines a "full" sense of worship which, he says, applies only to the Father. Given that he spoke this as an apostle, I am slow to discard it as an aberration based on a general definition given by the Church on a web site.Would you be any quicker to discard McConkie's teaching that the blacks would not hold the priesthood?Yet--it is something the LDS church never embraced. I would agree--the teachings of the apostles should not be discarded quickly or without substantial cause--but when their personal teachings collide with the Church's official stance--then I choose the official position every time.Vort--the Church official position that the LDS worship Jesus Christ is not a "general definition"--it is the official position of the LDS church. You still have not explained how you believe that McConkie's position that the LDS do not worship Jesus Christ--and the LDS position that they do--does not necessarily conflict.Could you explain how? In what way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted December 23, 2011 Report Share Posted December 23, 2011 Would you be any quicker to discard McConkie's teaching that the blacks would not hold the priesthood?Of course. The Church published a revelation that contradicted it. McConkie himself freely admitted that he was wrong and that any teachings by himself, or anyone else, that disagreed with the revelation should be ignored.Vort--the Church official position that the LDS worship Jesus Christ is not a "general definition"--it is the official position of the LDS church.Reread the quote you pulled up.You still have not explained how you believe that McConkie's position that the LDS do not worship Jesus Christ--and the LDS position that they do--does not necessarily conflict.Of course I have. You simply do not wish to address what I have written. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dberrie2000 Posted December 23, 2011 Report Share Posted December 23, 2011 Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostWould you be any quicker to discard McConkie's teaching that the blacks would not hold the priesthood?Of course. The Church published a revelation that contradicted it. McConkie himself freely admitted that he was wrong and that any teachings by himself, or anyone else, that disagreed with the revelation should be ignored.And how would you consider the position of the LDS church that they worship Jesus Christ any different, in light that it conflicts with McConkie's statement that the LDS do not worship Jesus Christ?Vort---How would you answer the question--do you worship Jesus Christ, if asked? If not--how do you qualify your statement?Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostVort--the Church official position that the LDS worship Jesus Christ is not a "general definition"--it is the official position of the LDS church.Vort---Reread the quote you pulled up.And how do you believe the quote does not state that the LDS worship Jesus Christ, or it is not the official position of the LDS church :"Like other Christians, we worship Jesus Christ as the divine Son of God." Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostYou still have not explained how you believe that McConkie's position that the LDS do not worship Jesus Christ--and the LDS position that they do--does not necessarily conflict.Vort---Of course I have. You simply do not wish to address what I have written.Maybe you are right--I missed it. Would you mind quoting where you explained that--I cannot locate it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted December 23, 2011 Report Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) And how would you consider the position of the LDS church that they worship Jesus Christ any different, in light that it conflicts with McConkie's statement that the LDS do not worship Jesus Christ?I have already explained this, more than once.Vort---How would you answer the question--do you worship Jesus Christ, if asked? If not--how do you qualify your statement?I would probably answer "yes".And how do you believe the quote does not state that the LDS worship Jesus Christ, or it is not the official position of the LDS church :dberrie, you cannot suppose I said either of the above things."Like other Christians, we worship Jesus Christ as the divine Son of God."Or,"Like other Christians, we worship Jesus Christ as the divine Son of God."Do you see the difference? We recognize and revere, and thus "worship", Jesus Christ as the divine Son of God. Do we pray to Jesus? No, we do not. As other Christians if they pray to Jesus, and almost all will say, "Yes". In fact, I am willing to bet that almost all would count prayer to Jesus as an element of their worship.Maybe you are right--I missed it. Would you mind quoting where you explained that--I cannot locate it.If you will read what I post from now on before responding to me, it will greatly facilitate our future conversations. I will repost what I wrote on the topic.As far as I know, the Church has never denied this statement by Elder McConkie. He took pains to define what he intended by "worship", a word with many possible definitions, suggesting that there was a "full" or "complete" sense of worship that we reserve for the Father alone. I do not see the Church's official statement as necessarily denying this.McConkie's quote speaks for itself. (Well, figuratively speaking.) He defines a "full" sense of worship which, he says, applies only to the Father. Given that he spoke this as an apostle, I am slow to discard it as an aberration based on a general definition given by the Church on a web site.Consider: Do we pray to Jesus? We do not, not in any sense or at any time, unless he is physically standing in front of us. Do we make covenants with Jesus? I believe the answer is no, we do not. Our covenants are with the Father and with him alone.Now most definitions of worship include the idea of praying to the object of worship. Since we do not pray to Jesus, we cannot be said to worship him in that sense. As McConkie noted, in the sense of reverential awe, holding in sacred status, and considering as God, we do indeed worship Jesus. But McConkie defined what he called "worship in the true and saving sense," one that (apparently) includes prayer to and covenant-making with the object of worship, in which sense we worship the Father and the Father only.The definition you cite is a general definition for worship, one with which I suspect even Elder McConkie would have agreed. It does not necessarily negate Elder McConkie's more narrowed definition of worship "in the true and saving sense".You seem quick to dismiss the teachings of an apostle that was and is held in high esteem by the current leadership of the Church. If the Church specifically teaches against something Elder McConkie said, then I accept the current teaching. But I see no reason to discard the teachings of an apostle based on a non-definitive line on the lds.org website.Please pardon my previous rather brusque wording. I have tried to tone it down a notch. Edited December 23, 2011 by Vort I'm tryyyy-ing to beeee like Jeeee-suuus... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted December 23, 2011 Report Share Posted December 23, 2011 Because it is not just Christian unity, as pertaining to the mortal--but as it relates to the oneness of God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ.If this oneness is the same for the Christians, as it for the Father and the Son, then co-equal is an application to all the disciples of Christ also.But again, Jesus overarching theme in his prayer TO the Father, CONCERNING his disciples, is not to offer a treatise on the divine nature shared by the Father and the Son, but rather a plea that the Father would help his followers remain united. So, he points out that He and the Father are in total agreement, and he would that his followers be likewise. There is no indication in the prayer that Jesus has chosen to enter a deeply theological discourse on the metaphysical nature of his existence in the universe vis a vis the Father. My sense is you would apply this prayer to that topic because it may seem to bolster the idea of the Godhead as a mere social unity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traveler Posted December 23, 2011 Report Share Posted December 23, 2011 But again, Jesus overarching theme in his prayer TO the Father, CONCERNING his disciples, is not to offer a treatise on the divine nature shared by the Father and the Son, but rather a plea that the Father would help his followers remain united. So, he points out that He and the Father are in total agreement, and he would that his followers be likewise. There is no indication in the prayer that Jesus has chosen to enter a deeply theological discourse on the metaphysical nature of his existence in the universe vis a vis the Father. My sense is you would apply this prayer to that topic because it may seem to bolster the idea of the Godhead as a mere social unity.Hmmmm - not sure I agree - not to say that I think you wrong. Just that I think you have missed something - or else I have. The intimate and personal nature of prayer is great insight to the sacred nature of G-d. In this instance we see primarily the naked nature of Jesus. And through his example we learn the nature of G-d or G-dlyness and realize that such in our darkest hour it is not beyond our own reach - and that to me is the point. The Traveler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted December 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) The LDS worship Jesus Christ as Lord, Savior, and Redeemer--period.That is what I said, that we worship Him as the Son of God (entailing all He has done for us, Savior, Redeemer, etc.).There is no qualification nor clarification needed, as the LDS church is concerned.Yet, you already made the clarification.as Lord, Savior, and Redeemer...The LDS worship Jesus Christ as Lord, Savior, and Redeemer--period. The membership, on occasion, belief that because the object of worship is the Father--that means that we do not worship the Son.That's not the only conclusion one can draw. I draw the conclusion that we do not worship the 2 the same way. Jesus worshipped the Father. He taught us how to do the same. He wants to bring us back to the Father. It is the Father's will He is trying to bring about, on earth as it is in heaven.The simple instructions we give to our Primary kids and investigators on how to pray makes this distinction very clear. We pray to God the Father in the name of Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy Ghost. They are all involved in worship, but it is directed to the Father in Christ's name, because we cannot approach the Father without Christ.I think you're being too hard on people who say "we worship only the Father." He should be the primary source of our worship. He is the one responsible for all we have, even for having Jesus Christ, and even ultimately for everything Christ did for us.All forms of worship pass through Jesus Christ first, and is the only form of worship the Father recognizes, and is the only true worship of the Father--the worship of His Son, as He is the Mediator between the Father and man. There is no such thing as circumventing the Son, and going straight to the Father, when referring to worship.Well spoken. The Father is the point of direction for our worship.I am looking at two notices from the LDS newsroom I have now--they start off with this line:"Like other Christians, we worship Jesus Christ as the divine Son of God."Bold added for emphasis.You quote this from the Church as an official declaration, then you say:No clarification postulated--none needed.When, the clarification is self-contained right in the words you quoted... "as the divine Son of God."It's not shocking, it's a misunderstanding. By saying we direct our worship to the Father not the Son, we are recognizing the source of everything we have. There is no disrespect meant toward the One who gave Himself so that we can return to the Father, but without the Father even Christ would be nothing and I'm certain He would be the first to tell you that. We follow Him to the Father, and recognize it is the only way to get there. The Father stated "this is my beloved Son, hear Him." So, we listen; we heed.It's not shocking. It's just a different way of stating the same thing.We owe Christ our very lives, but we owed it to the Father first. Edited December 23, 2011 by Justice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dberrie2000 Posted December 23, 2011 Report Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostVort---How would you answer the question--do you worship Jesus Christ, if asked? If not--how do you qualify your statement?Vort---I would probably answer "yes".Well, forgive me for all the direct statements--but, looking at it from the perspective of those outside of the LDS church, and many within--the conclusion there might very well be--how can one claim to be Christian, and is not sure of who he worships?Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post"Like other Christians, we worship Jesus Christ as the divine Son of God."Vort----Or, "Like other Christians, we worship Jesus Christ as the divine Son of God."OK--but I'm trying to understand how that somehow changes the worship fact? How does that, the worship of the Son as the divine Son of God, create the difference of whether the LDS worship Jesus Christ? Would that create the same confusion if someone asked you if you worshiped God the Father as the Father? Why should the title affect the way we worship Jesus Christ, or whether we do?Just a note here, Vort. I'm not here to criticize your statements--but to ask some hard questions from a different perspective. My approach may be challenging, but I hope you do not believe that I am attacking you personally. I have learned, from hard experience--that the LDS do very well from the spirit perspective--but very poorly, in many respects, when explaining their beliefs, as far as communication goes.Don't be fooled--anyone who is not a member, and views or hears some of the statement made by the LDS--are immediately convinced that they are not Christian, and want no part of their experience.I believe that is the reason that Dallin H. Oaks gave the talk some years ago about answering the question--"are you saved"? Because, in the ensuing answers--we blow people away. He stated that when we are asked, are you saved--we just answer yes, and not feel compelled to delve in a long explanation--we sometimes throw the baby out with the bathwater when we do. Most are not ready for our long answers, do not understand them, or are flat turned off by them. They have already been prejudiced by the prevailing winds--and we sometimes walk straight into those prejudices.The same applies, for me, with questions, such as--do you worship Jesus Christ--- do you believe the Bible is the word of God--etc. If we are to bring the LDS church out of obscurity--it won't be with answers that we are not sure whether we worship Christ or not. Edited December 23, 2011 by dberrie2000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dberrie2000 Posted December 23, 2011 Report Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) dberrie---St John17:22--"And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:"How do you relate that to co-equal?Originally Posted by prisonchaplain View PostWhy is it necessary to take a passage in which Jesus prays for Christian unity, and attempt to apply that to a metaphysical discussion about God's nature?dberrie---Because it is not just Christian unity, as pertaining to the mortal--but as it relates to the oneness of God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ.If this oneness is the same for the Christians, as it for the Father and the Son, then co-equal is an application to all the disciples of Christ also.But again, Jesus overarching theme in his prayer TO the Father, CONCERNING his disciples,If it were limited to His disciples--then one could limit it to your focus. It was not. It was a prayer, to His Father, that the disciples be united in oneness, the same way Christ and the Father are united in oneness.That reaches further than most are willing to admit.But, no different than many of the doctrines taught within the Bible:Revelation3:21--"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."Revelation3:12--"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name."The end question being--what does this oneness mean? What are those who are one with the Father and Son,as they are, have the name of God written upon them, and sit on His throne?is not to offer a treatise on the divine nature shared by the Father and the Son,Maybe not--but if indeed the Father and Son do share in a divine nature in oneness--then what do the disciples share with them, if they are indeed one with the Father and the Son--just as they are one?For me--this leaks into the theology basement of Trinitarian theory.but rather a plea that the Father would help his followers remain united. So, he points out that He and the Father are in total agreement, and he would that his followers be likewise. There is no indication in the prayer that Jesus has chosen to enter a deeply theological discourse on the metaphysical nature of his existence in the universe vis a vis the Father. My sense is you would apply this prayer to that topic because it may seem to bolster the idea of the Godhead as a mere social unity.I really don't see where I have postulated that thought--nor do I limit St John17 to such a conclusion.But if you do not limit it to such, please do take note--wherever you take it from there--the disciples are attached to it. Edited December 23, 2011 by dberrie2000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dberrie2000 Posted December 23, 2011 Report Share Posted December 23, 2011 Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostI am looking at two notices from the LDS newsroom I have now--they start off with this line:"Like other Christians, we worship Jesus Christ as the divine Son of God."Justice---Bold added for emphasis.You quote this from the Church as an official declaration, then you say:Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostNo clarification postulated--none needed.When, the clarification is self-contained right in the words you quoted... "as the divine Son of God." My statement was that the church printed this statement:"Like other Christians, we worship Jesus Christ as the divine Son of God." And my comments were that the LDS church did not clarify that statement. The full statement. I did not make any claim there was no clarification within that statement.How does worshiping Christ as the Son of God change the fact that the LDS worship Jesus Christ?If you were asked if you worship Christ--how would you answer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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