Son of God?

[The_Phoenix]

Jesus is the eternal Son of God by relationship. He is his Father's Son. He did not start as something else and become God's son. He has always been what He is. He was not created.

Are you suggesting that he had to be born physically to become God's Son? How could he do that if he is eternal? I think your question through your friend for a loop.

If God could not have "offspring" then God would not be all powerful; this by definition puts limits upon his abilities. Christ was always quick to point out "there is none good but God" and "I do that which I have seen the Father do".

[Maureen]

If God could not have "offspring" then God would not be all powerful; this by definition puts limits upon his abilities. Christ was always quick to point out "there is none good but God" and "I do that which I have seen the Father do".

Why? I guess if you accept the idea of a pre-existence and that humankind's existence didn't start on earth but before, this idea makes sense. But for traditional Christians, God was God before he created anything. His abilities were in place before creation started.

M.

[Maureen]

...In keeping with the spirit of the purpose for this thread, I offer a scripture.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Let's throw the word begotten into the mix. How can the words begotten and son be used together in a symbolic way?...

I'm going to cheat a little and add someone else's thoughts to the meaning of the word begotten.

2. The “Only Begotten Son” Language. The second piece of evidence we must examine is the expression “only-begotten.” It is the Greek word “monogeneis.” This is not simply “begotten,” for that expression can be applied to all believers, those who have been begotten or born again by the Spirit. This is a unique expression for a unique person, the only-begotten Son of God. The expression appears in John 1:14, 4:18, 3:16, and 3:18. It would literally mean the “only generated one.” This is the key expression for the doctrine of “the eternal generation of the Son,” meaning, he always was the only begotten Son. The expression does not refer to the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem, because he is the Son from eternity past.

Perhaps the language can be better understood if contrasted with synonyms. Take the verbs “make,” “create,” and “beget.” The verb “make” is general; one can make dinner, clothes, a house, or any other product. The “create” can have the same objects, but usually elevates the act to an art: one creates a masterpiece, or a work of art, or a symphony. While these creations bear the imprint of the creator, they do not share his nature. But “beget” is different. You can only beget a child that has the same nature as you have--a son or a daughter. There is nothing else you can beget (unless you were speaking very figuratively). Your son or your daughter will inherit his or her nature from you--genes, personality--all of it. You can use “make” or “create” for producing a child; but when you use “beget” it only means you produce a child that has your nature.

Now follow this carefully. If Jesus is said to be the begotten Son of God (using the figure from human language to make the point), then Jesus has the same nature as the Father. If Jesus has the same nature as God the Father, then Jesus is divine and eternal as well. If he is eternally God, then there was never a time he was literally begotten--which is why we know the language is figurative to describe his nature, and not his beginning. To call Jesus “the only begotten Son” means that he is fully divine and eternal. He is God the Son.

This is why the creed says that Jesus was “begotten, not made.” Why? Because he is of one substance with the Father.

One more point. The word “begotten” has “only” (mono-) prefixed to it. There is only one. This means that Jesus has a unique relationship with the Father--they two along with the Holy Spirit make up the Godhead. You and I, if we are believers, have been born into the family of God--we are said to be begotten of God. But we are not “only-begotten.” That refers to Jesus’ divine nature. We were adopted by grace and given the divine nature by the Spirit so that we may be called the children of God. But Jesus--he is very God of very God. He is the only-begotten Son of God (that is the part of the creed that reads “of very God”), which means that he is God (that is the part that reads “very God”).

The Son of God, Begotten, Not Made | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site

I hope this helps. I would say that this is how traditional Christianity views the relationship between the Father and the Son.

M.

Edited December 9, 2011 by Maureen

[Shelly200]

I will admit to not reading over every single reply to this post (there are 6 pages of replies), but I thought I'd add my two cents in, if that's alright.

I grew up Southern Baptist, and was always taught to think of the Trinity like a triangle, with God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit on each point of the triangle. One shape-a triangle. But three points on the shape. Not separate (otherwise it wouldn't be a triangle), but not all the same point (otherwise there would just be three points one on top of the other). A very simplistic way to view the Trinity, but that's how I was taught as a kid.

In the Catholic Church, the Trinity is viewed as "the central mystery of Christian faith and life" and "the source of all the other mysteries of faith," and is "the most fundamental and essential teaching in the hierarchy of the truths of faith." (Which - not to go off topic - is one reason that many Christians deny that the LDS [among others] are not Christians. Because of the denial of the Trinity.) The Catholic Church refers frequently to "mysteries," which are truths we know about God, but can't explain in human or earthly terms. We can't define God always in our own terms, because God is not human. We can't force Him to fit into our molds.

The Church says that God is Father in that "God is the first origin of everything and transcendent authority" and "he is at the same time goodness and loving care for all his children." "The language of faith thus draws on the human experience of parents," although He "transcends human fatherhood" because "no one is father as God is Father." Jesus reveals God to be Father "in relation to his only Son, who is eternally Son only in relation to his Father."

The Holy Spirit was always in the beginning with the Father and Son- "at work since creation, having previously spoken through the prophets" - and was then bestowed to the disciples to guide them to truth. "The Spirit is sent to the apostles and to the Church both by the Father in the name of the Son, and by the Son in person, once he had returned to the Father. The sending of the person of the Spirit after Jesus' glorification reveals in its fullness the mystery of the Holy Trinity."

"For as the Trinity has only one and the same nature, so too does it have only one and the same operation: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are not three principles of creation but on principle."

The Catholic Church teaches that the Son is "consubstantial" with the Father - they are one and the same.

The Church teaches that Mary conceived Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit - not through any physical, human, or earthly means. Yes, humans need DNA and sexual intercourse in order to be born. However, Christ is both man AND God, and can therefore work outside of the earthly realm. Christ did not need sex to be conceived - the Holy Spirit has the power to indwell Mary with the human nature of Christ anyway He so chooses. And that, to Catholics and most Protestants, was through a miracle, not through anything remotely physical.

The Trinity *is* a difficult concept to wrap one's mind around. It's still difficult for me sometimes to explain it. But then I remember that God is above me - His ways are not my ways. So then I don't try to fit God into my ways - I simply acknowledge that He can work in ways I don't understand.

And as far as the Trinity being a spirit - I was always taught in my Baptist church that Christ *does* currently have a physical body... He arose from the grave after three days, *with His body,* even showing it to some of the Apostles later. I believe the Catholic Church teaches something similar, at least that Christ has a transfigured body (as does Mary, who was assumed into Heaven without the taint of death). In the end of Earthly time we will all be granted a perfect, transfigured body in Heaven. What the characteristics of that body is we don't know; it's a mystery. However, that doesn't change the Trinity. When Christ was on Earth He was fully God and fully Man... but God the Father was still in Heaven at the same time. So it's possible for Christ to have a transfigured body, while the Father doesn't, and for them to *still* be one Triune God.

[spamlds]

Years ago, before joining the Church, I tried to understand the Trinity. I talked to a lot of pastors and priests about it. None of them really understand it either. To them, it's just a mystery and they'll tell you it's a mystery. The creeds call it "incomprehensible"--and that's about the only true statement in the creeds.

I used to ask all kinds of questions. If the Father became the Son on the Earth, while he was in the womb and while he was a baby, who answered prayers and watched over heaven and earth? If Jesus was his own Father, why did he go through the charade of praying to himself? Why did he deceive and/or confuse a thousand generations of Christians by having the Father's voice come from heaven and the Holy Ghost descend like a dove at his baptism?

How is he without "variableness" or "shadow of changing" as James calls it if he was at one time an incorporeal spirit, then became a mortal, then became a spirit, then was resurrected in a physical body, and now (as they suppose) returned to being a spirit? What happened to his body? When the resurrected Jesus appeared to Mary by the tomb, he said that he had not yet ascended to his Father in Heaven. How is that even possible if they were the same Being? When he ascended to heaven, the angels told the disciples that he'd return again in like manner. If he's a spirit now, what did he do with his body? Does he just put it on an off like a costume?

I don't mean to be facetious or disrespectful in asking these things. These were the questions I had before I joined the Church. Truthfully, the LDS Church is the only one that had any answers that made sense. The answers I received harmonized the various parts of the scriptures and did away with any contradictions. It became easy to see that man's teachings (particularly neo-Platonism and Gnosticism) really messed up the understanding of God's nature once the living revelators were gone out of the Church.

The Trinity is a scripturally bankrupt notion. The Lord perfectly resolves the questions in the First Vision. Any person can know for himself that Joseph Smith's experience was real by the prayer of faith and by reading the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon and the First Vision correct a whole world full of error on the topic of God's nature and provide the believer with first-hand wisdom on the subject by personal revelation.

[Shelly200]

Spamlds--

Yes, non-LDS say the Trinity is a mystery -- not because we needed an out, but because there are lots of mysteries within the Church that we can't fully explain in human terms. Remember, God is outside our realm of thinking; His ways are not our ways; He neither expects, nor wants us to know every single thing about Him while we're on Earth.

You raise a lot of good questions about the Trinity. While Christ was on Earth, He was both God *and* Man, and therefore, in His human person, He could pray to the Father in Heaven (to answer your question - God *was* still in Heaven answering prayers while Christ was alive), and the Father in Heaven could speak to those on Earth (the scene of Christ's baptism is a wonderful example of all three persons of the Trinity being in the same earthly scene). The Trinity teaches that God is One, in three persons. The Trinity is one *being* that has three distinct *persons.*

As to Christ's body -- yes, He still has one. It is a perfected, transfigured body, but a body nonetheless. Catholics, and as far as I know, most Protestants teach this. So there's the answer to those questions.

It is also important to note that the Bible frequently makes note that there is only *one* God. And if Christ is *also* God (which He is), and there can only be *one* God, then God has at least two persons within His being. Add into that the Holy Spirit (also God), and God is One in three persons.

Though it doesn't always make sense to our human minds (below God's mind), I still don't find the doctrine bankrupt scripturally or otherwise. And for those who don't recognize the validity of the First Vision, that can't be used to prove or disprove the essence of the Godhead/Trinity/God in general. I personally feel nice in a church that recognizes it *doesn't* have all the answers. It has most, it tries to explain what it can in human terms, but it in itself isn't God, so it doesn't know everything.

[Maureen]

...I used to ask all kinds of questions. If the Father became the Son on the Earth, while he was in the womb and while he was a baby, who answered prayers and watched over heaven and earth? If Jesus was his own Father, why did he go through the charade of praying to himself? Why did he deceive and/or confuse a thousand generations of Christians by having the Father's voice come from heaven and the Holy Ghost descend like a dove at his baptism?

How is he without "variableness" or "shadow of changing" as James calls it if he was at one time an incorporeal spirit, then became a mortal, then became a spirit, then was resurrected in a physical body, and now (as they suppose) returned to being a spirit? What happened to his body? When the resurrected Jesus appeared to Mary by the tomb, he said that he had not yet ascended to his Father in Heaven. How is that even possible if they were the same Being? When he ascended to heaven, the angels told the disciples that he'd return again in like manner. If he's a spirit now, what did he do with his body? Does he just put it on an off like a costume?...

spamlds, there's been a lot of threads regarding the Trinity on this forum, I'm surprised you haven't read any of those, because they could answer your thoughts above. First of all, the Trinity is God in three persons - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirt. The Father did not become incarnate, it was the Son who became incarnate as Jesus. While Jesus was here on earth, God the Father still existed in heaven (so to speak). Who do you think Jesus was referring to when he talked about the Father? As Shelly has explained Jesus was fully man and God. He died and was resurrected and now exists with God the Father, with a glorified, resurrected body. It really isn't that difficult, the Father is the Father, and not the Son or HS, the Son is the Son, and not the Father or HS, the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit, and not the Father or the Son. They are three distinct persons, that share the same one and only divinity, as one God.

I hope that helps, even just a little.

M.

[Maureen]

...The Trinity is a scripturally bankrupt notion. The Lord perfectly resolves the questions in the First Vision. Any person can know for himself that Joseph Smith's experience was real by the prayer of faith and by reading the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon and the First Vision correct a whole world full of error on the topic of God's nature and provide the believer with first-hand wisdom on the subject by personal revelation.

Does the BofM really talk about God's nature like JS describes it in the King Follet discourse? I'm attaching some scripture from the BofM and IMO, they describe the Trinity.

Alma 11:44

44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

· Mormon 7:7

7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

· 2 Nephi 31:21

21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

M.

[Vort]

I'm attaching some scripture from the BofM and IMO, they describe the Trinity.

You are welcome to your opinion, of course. But the scriptures you cite are pure LDS doctrine, and the LDS Church specifically disclaims belief in the widely held traditional Christian concept of "the Trinity". So while you may think that the scriptures you cite are talking about "the Trinity", the Church whose scriptures they are do not so believe.

[Snow]

With my limited understanding of the Trinity I come away with 2 main points:

1. The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is/are spirit, and has existed always just as they are. They cannot have offspring, because if they could there would be more than One God.

2. Since God is a spirit, He does not have a physical body of flesh and bones as we do, or as the resurrected Jesus did.

Assuming these 2 statements are true (my friend acknowledged they were), then, according to this belief, if God cannot have offspring, and does not have a physical body to provide genetics from, how is Jesus the Son of God?

Thank you for any input.

I'm hardly Trinitarian but here's my 8 cents:

Number 1: This is silly and your friend couldn't possibly believe that. Trinitarians believe that God is all-powerful and being all-powerful could certainly have children that weren't God.

Number 2: Trinitarians don't believe that either. Trinitarians believe that Jesus is God and Jesus had and has a body of flesh and blood.

Sound's like your friend is not really a trinitarian.

[Justice]

Now follow this carefully. If Jesus is said to be the begotten Son of God (using the figure from human language to make the point), then Jesus has the same nature as the Father. If Jesus has the same nature as God the Father, then Jesus is divine and eternal as well. If he is eternally God, then there was never a time he was literally begotten--which is why we know the language is figurative to describe his nature, and not his beginning. To call Jesus “the only begotten Son” means that he is fully divine and eternal. He is God the Son.

Thank you for your post, and for quoting these words.

The person you quote here make a lot of assumptions along his path to logic, and he rules out many possible paths without even addressing them. He wants to lead people to think his conclusions are the only valid ones. But, they are not. There are other paths of logic that fit his initial phrase that lead in a different direction than he has chosen.

But, I understand you posted it to show how you view it, and not to say all other interpretation are eliminated because you *can* arrive at these conclusions. For which, I thank you for sharing your beliefs. It does help me to undertstand them better.

[Justice]

Number 1: This is silly and your friend couldn't possibly believe that. Trinitarians believe that God is all-powerful and being all-powerful could certainly have children that weren't God.

You say children, which in some interpretaions can be "created." Some people call their pets their children. I understand this leads to different understandings, and is why I carefully used the word offspring, not children. The God of the Trinity can create living beings and call them children, but He cannot literally have offspring or that would make more than one God.

There is no need for the Trinity God to have offspring. The Trinity has co-existed (Father and Son included) for eternity (for ever) and all other life forms are "created" (not offspring). No where in their doctrine does it require God to have offspring... except the interpretation of "only begotten Son," which is why I bring it up.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Number 2: Trinitarians don't believe that either. Trinitarians believe that Jesus is God and Jesus had and has a body of flesh and blood.

Let me clarify. Before Jesus was born in the flesh, God did not have a physical body of flesh and bone.

I am unclear as to if Trinitarians believe the Son will keep His body for ever, or if at some point it will no longer be needed.

Sound's like your friend is not really a trinitarian.

He is, I assure you.

[Maureen]

Now follow this carefully. If Jesus is said to be the begotten Son of God (using the figure from human language to make the point), then Jesus has the same nature as the Father. If Jesus has the same nature as God the Father, then Jesus is divine and eternal as well. If he is eternally God, then there was never a time he was literally begotten--which is why we know the language is figurative to describe his nature, and not his beginning. To call Jesus “the only begotten Son” means that he is fully divine and eternal. He is God the Son....

The person you quote here make a lot of assumptions along his path to logic, and he rules out many possible paths without even addressing them. He wants to lead people to think his conclusions are the only valid ones. But, they are not. There are other paths of logic that fit his initial phrase that lead in a different direction than he has chosen....

I am curious as to what these other paths of logic could be, that would still fit the traditional Christian concept of only begotten Son.

M.

[jayanna]

This is such an interesting thread! I have learned a lot about the beliefs of others, well, at least I didn't know that Jehovah's Witness didn't believe that Jesus is the Son of God. I didn't see that coming at all, but when I prayed about it once (after they gave me some pamphlets and I read them and they seemed very reasonable to me) I got the answer that their beliefs of the Savior were not complete. I put the pamphlets in the trash. But I didn't know they don't think he's the Son of God at all...

I was wondering if your friend understands that HF has a body that eats and sees and smells? Like in a Marvelous Work and a Wonder... Deuteronomy 4:28  Moses warns the people that someday they will be scattered and will worship false gods that neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell. How can He do those things without eyes to see, ears to hear, a mouth and stomach to eat, and a nose to smell?

Not all mainstream Christians believe that Jesus and His Father are the same person, but I wonder, why not ask Him? What would happen if they asked Him? Are they praying without expecting an answer? I have always wondered this... if you want to know something about God, or His gospel, why not just ask Him?

[Maureen]

....Not all mainstream Christians believe that Jesus and His Father are the same person....

I'm guessing that most, if not all, mainstream Christians do not believe that Jesus and the Father are the same person, I know I don't. Are people really reading what the Trinity is, or do the words "distinct persons" mean nothing?

M.

[Vort]

Are people really reading what the Trinity is, or do the words "distinct persons" mean nothing?

Correct. The words "three persons and one substance" mean nothing to us.

[Maureen]

...I have learned a lot about the beliefs of others, well, at least I didn't know that Jehovah's Witness didn't believe that Jesus is the Son of God....

I was curious and went to the Watch Tower website and under beliefs about Jesus it says:

Christ is God's Son and is inferior to Him

Christ was first of God's creations

Christ's human life was paid as a ransom for obedient humans

Christ's one sacrifice was sufficient

Christ was raised from the dead as an immortal spirit person

Christ's presence is in spirit

I know they do not believe in the Trinity and Jesus is not God but they do consider him a god.

What Do They Believe? - Jehovah's Witnesses Official Web Site

M.

[Snow]

You say children, which in some interpretaions can be "created." Some people call their pets their children. I understand this leads to different understandings, and is why I carefully used the word offspring, not children. The God of the Trinity can create living beings and call them children, but He cannot literally have offspring or that would make more than one God.

Then you, or your friend, must believe that God is not omnipotent.

An omnipotent god could have literal offspring that were divine, or not divine or orange stripped unicorns.

Let me clarify. Before Jesus was born in the flesh, God did not have a physical body of flesh and bone.

Yes, but all that changed when God, Jesus, took a body of flesh and bone, died, resurrected with a body of flesh and bone and took that body up into heaven.

[Maureen]

Correct. The words "three persons and one substance" mean nothing to us.

So you think it's okay if someone misrepresents the Trinity doctrine than try to understand what it is?

M.

[jayanna]

Sorry, but I went to the Church of Christ, the Baptist church, and the Methodist church, and a non-denominational church, and in all I was taught that Jesus and God were actually the same being. I asked why would he talk to himself, and I always got the same ' His ways are mysterious and beyond us' answer.

Only very recently have I heard of a local congregation that teaches that Jesus and God are not the same person. It is very contraversial in our area.

[Vort]

So you think it's okay if someone misrepresents the Trinity doctrine than try to understand what it is?

Where did you get this idea?

[prisonchaplain]

If God could not have "offspring" then God would not be all powerful; this by definition puts limits upon his abilities. Christ was always quick to point out "there is none good but God" and "I do that which I have seen the Father do".

For traditionalists this is just another "God cannot be all powerful because he cannot create a rock so big that he cannot lift it" type argument. What you say here is: God cannot be omnipotent because he cannot birth (i.e. give beginning to) an eternal (i.e. one who has no beginning) Son."

Perhaps...and perhaps God cannot create a square circle either...so what?

[prisonchaplain]

Yes, non-LDS say the Trinity is a mystery -- not because we needed an out, but because there are lots of mysteries within the Church that we can't fully explain in human terms. Remember, God is outside our realm of thinking; His ways are not our ways; He neither expects, nor wants us to know every single thing about Him while we're on Earth.

I loved this and wanted to add a thought. When Catholics use the term "mystery," it seems to reflect a divine poetry. These are things the ancients would meditate on for many hours--not out of frustration and perplexion, but out of a joy. After all, they were reflecting on God, not engaging in an unsolvable scientific problem.

As an evangelical, my tradition does not have the same deep tradition of meditation. However I have enough thoughtfulness to see someone who is smiling, and speaking glowingly of God's unfathomable greatness that cannot be known by mere mortals not to respond with, "So...You can't defend your doctrine about him, huh? Huh!"

[prisonchaplain]

Sorry, but I went to the Church of Christ, the Baptist church, and the Methodist church, and a non-denominational church, and in all I was taught that Jesus and God were actually the same being. I asked why would he talk to himself, and I always got the same ' His ways are mysterious and beyond us' answer.

Only very recently have I heard of a local congregation that teaches that Jesus and God are not the same person. It is very contraversial in our area.

Trinity = 3 persons, one being, one God. God the Son can talk to God the Father and not be "talking to himself." Nevertheless, they are one, and trinitarians are monotheists.

[prisonchaplain]

Where did you get this idea?

An LDS poster says that Trinitarians believe that Jesus and the Father are the same person. Maureen (Trinitarian) says this is wrong, that Trinitarians believe God is three distinct persons, though one God." Vort says this means nothing. That's how Maureeen got the idea that you were saying it was okay for LDS to falsely say Trinitarians believe God is only one person, rather than try to understand the actual doctrine