Public prayer


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I have to admit that I got caught kneeling in the celestial room. And I disagreed with the reasons for not allowing people to kneel in the celestial room when I learned what they were (keeping prayer a more private thing). But then some things recently have made me realize that it is probably a pretty good policy.

I watch Survivor, and this season there is a person on there who likes to get the group involved with a group prayer, which I see no problem with, except that they are doing it in front of the cameras, which seem to 'cheapen' it some how. It's like they aren't praying for prayer's sake, but putting on a show for the cameras.

Then we have the new fad of 'tebowing' (did I spell that right?). I totally appreciate that the football player wants to show his thanks to God in a public way, but it has spun out into something that people do just to be cool, and not because they love God or want to pray. I have to admit that I cringe every time I see someone do it.

These things have made me appreciate how sacred prayer is. It should be something kept private, and NOT for show.

I am curious what you guys think.

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Well in Matthew Jesus pretty much explains things....

Matthew 6:

5And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

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Well in Matthew Jesus pretty much explains things....

Matthew 6:

5And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

I always found that quite fitting. Pray for God, get rewarded by God. Pray for men and get rewarded of men. Quite fair really.

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I have to admit that I got caught kneeling in the celestial room. And I disagreed with the reasons for not allowing people to kneel in the celestial room when I learned what they were (keeping prayer a more private thing). But then some things recently have made me realize that it is probably a pretty good policy.

Huh, so kneeling in the temple is seen as trying to score points? I thought we were allowed to pray, meditate and seek inspiration in the celestial room. I guess I just kinda thought most anyone in there was praying, or seeking some sort of inspiration thus getting their brownie points, apparently. :eek: So are we allowed to bow our heads and close our eyes? If so, what's the difference?

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I was told to get off my knees, sit down and bow my head, and pray in silence. I still have kind of a hard time with it, because I feel the 'need' to kneel in that sacred place (only when in my whites and not wearing any other 'special' clothing). I have taken to just kneeling in my stall in the dressing rooms. Not as special as kneeling in the celestial room, but, hey, I'm still in the temple. Has anyone else found a 'fix' for the not kneeling in the celestial room problem?

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The temple is first and foremost a house of prayer. There is a time and a season for all things. While there is a time and place to kneel in prayer, while in the celestial room is not it. Do you kneel in prayer in sacrament? In the restaurant before you eat your meal? During someone receiving a blessing, or maybe receiveing the Gift of the Holy Ghost, or even a baby blessing? Of course not, it is not the time or place for that. There is a reason for kneeling, maybe your answer lies there. I would suggest going to the temple office and saying you have a temple question, and then asking the question when the appropriate priesthood holder is there to answer it for you. I know that they welcome questions, as I've had several, and I have never been treated shortly or disrepectfully when I have one.

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Regarding "tebowing" I've got mixed feelings about it. Much of what we see now is not any type of respect for God but open mocking of what Tim Tebow has been doing - bowing down in prayers on the field or on the sideline. The mocking is just that, and is in very poor taste. Now for the presumably well intended "tebowing" done by Tebow and others I think it's a bit more complicated.

We've got teachings from the Savior in the Sermon on the Mount saying to pray in private, but He also says to let our light so shine in the same discourse. I don't know what Tim Tebow (or anyone else) has in his heart when he makes a public display of his religion. I know that his parents were missionaries in the Philipines, and that he has been active in that missionary service to the poor over there. He's done a lot of good with his life, and I would be careful about criticizing him for doing it for the wrong reasons without knowing where his heart is.

As a side note, we occassionally joke about the Christian fish symbols that people have on their cars, in part because we think they might be doing it to be seen of men. At some point I realized that the CTR and RULDS2 bumper stickers may not be a whole not different. Not that they are bad, I just came to the realization that this might be the exact type of thing Jesus was talking about when He said that we would be judged with the judgement we used for others.

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In the restaurant before you eat your meal?

I guess I'm seeing the temple as being a place with all like minded people, we're all LDS. However, since you brought up restaurants I do have a great story. It was Valentine's Day, several years ago, and I'd been inactive for a number of years and decided that I would try a glass or wine with my meal. Shortly after ordering, the family at a nearby table were delivered their food. And a few minutes later they bowed their heads and one of them began "Our Father in Heaven... in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen." It couldn't be... I decided to eavesdrop some on the conversation. While I couldn't hear 99% of the words I did hear things like "Joseph Smith" and some other LDS key words. The waitress returned now with my wine and I like totally freaked! "Please, take it back..." While I don't personally believe in oral prayers in public, I'll be forever greatful to that family, whoever they were for their prayer that night. I'm reactivated, not due to that, but it was another testimony to me, that I was to choose the right even when inactive. I never told the family, butI hope they were blessed for their work.

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I have to admit that I got caught kneeling in the celestial room. And I disagreed with the reasons for not allowing people to kneel in the celestial room when I learned what they were (keeping prayer a more private thing).

When I was working in the temple, that wasn't the reason they gave us for not allowing kneeling in the celestial room. We were told it was related to safety, keeping walkways free of obstructions, and may have had something to do with fire codes.

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Sometimes I wonder if people are paying attention. One time I was asked by a close friend and devout Muslim about what LDS do to prepare for prayers. Think of that concept for a moment or two and the importance of understanding the responsibility in preparation for a private moment with your Father in heaven.

As part of temple worship and covenant it is possible to take prayer to a whole new level and covenant at the very sacred alter of the temple. This is not by any means a common prayer and several important things about prayer can be learned by proper preparation for prayer.

Because of the very sacred nature of prayer in the temple I would suggest a few things be done in preparation.

1. Prepare yourself with an attitude of fasting and prayer before attending the temple.

2. If there is anyone with whom you are harboring ill feelings - settle such things before attending the temple.

3. Place your name (and other names of concern) on the temple prayer roll.

4. Participate (volunteer) with sacred prayer at the altar of the temple.

5. Dedicate the time you spend in the Celestial room to listening for spiritual answers (in quiet moments of meditation) rather than speaking in thought or other means or prayer.

I sometimes wonder if G-d is unable to answer prayers because we are too busy talking rather than listening. I started this post by suggesting that there may be a disconnect with prayer while attending the temple. I sometimes think we have been taught to pray - but not so much how to pay attention and listen for answers. In some cases I believe there are individuals that have completely missed the concept of listing - especially to things spiritual.

The Traveler

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When I was working in the temple, that wasn't the reason they gave us for not allowing kneeling in the celestial room. We were told it was related to safety, keeping walkways free of obstructions, and may have had something to do with fire codes.

I wondered if that could be part of the situation, I wondered if some members with eyesight problems might have difficulty manuevering around legs and feet.

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Our purpose in the temple is to perform work for our beloved dead. Inspiration and such that we receive in the temple is purely a side effect of our service there, like receiving inspiration on the stake onion farm. And contrary to popular lore, the celestial room is not an extension of the celestial kingdom; it is a room in the temple, made to represent the idea of celestial life, just as the (first) endowment room represents the garden of Eden and is not actually a little piece of it.

The celestial room is not designed as a place to go to speak with God. That's what your closet is for. If you receive guidance and revelation there, great! But you should not be going there in order to receive revelation. And kneeling in prayer in the celestial room is an open display of a private act that, to me, borders on vulgar.

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I doubt that the sister who asked me to not kneel was worried about fire codes. I was alone in the celestial room, she had to have peeked in thru the door and seen me and rushed in. She told me that they had been told that it was inappropriate to kneel in the celestial room, and would not leave until I had stood up. My knees had gone numb by then and I had a hard time with my big flowy dress, but she didn't offer to help she just pointed to a near by chair and told me to sit down.

Traveler it is funny you bring up just listening. Because AT THE TIME I had asked HF if I was doing the right things in my life, and I was waiting for his answer when she came a bustin in. It was actually kind of funny.

I guess it was important enough to her that she felt the need to very rudely interrupt a very special prayer in the celestial room (something I wouldn't have the guts to do unless the sister's dress was actually ON fire). I was only wearing whites, and I was silently praying at a chair in a corner. Now I'm not really sure what the reason was. I had been told because we are not supposed to pray in public (which didn't seem right because we all pray in the celestial room)... Humm, I don't know.

Anyone have the REAL answer as to why we can't?

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I doubt that the sister who asked me to not kneel was worried about fire codes.

She may have only known the rule and not the reason for the rule. Often times, when in such a situation, people invent their own reasons.

Anyone have the REAL answer as to why we can't?

As I said before, when I (as in, I personally received instruction on this matter) was an ordinance worker at the temple, we were told it was due to maintaining clear walkways and preserving the safety of those who visit the temple.

If you think that someone rushing in and telling you to get up is disruptive, just wait until grandma falls and breaks a hip. At that point, they will either a) cancel all endowment sessions and suspend any currently in progress, or b) complete only the endowments currently in progress but not allow anyone into the celestial room until grandma has been taken out of the building.

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My knees had gone numb by then and I had a hard time with my big flowy dress,

This is a separate issue. The kneeling rule was given in relation to safety. But ordinance workers are also instructed that they may ask people to leave the celestial room if they are loitering too long. As nice as it is to be in the celestial room, the ordinance workers are usually quite busy and can't hang around all day. As much as the workers should be considerate of the needs and wants of the visitors, the visitors should be considerate of the needs and demands placed on the workers.

In some temples, you may be able to find a study where you can sit and ponder for longer periods of time than you can in the celestial room. In the Boston temple, there were a couple of studies that I could have disappeared to for several hours without disruption if I had desired. Those rooms were built for that purpose; the celestial room was not.

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I wondered if that could be part of the situation, I wondered if some members with eyesight problems might have difficulty manuevering around legs and feet.

Also a large number of temple patrons are older, I suspect if they felt (such as SiF here) they had to pray on their knees a fair number of them might not be able to get back up without assistance, creating a disturbance, or as MoE points out, getting hurt.

Anyone have the REAL answer as to why we can't?

Jayanna probably has the best advice if you want an official answer. See below:

I would suggest going to the temple office and saying you have a temple question, and then asking the question when the appropriate priesthood holder is there to answer it for you. I know that they welcome questions, as I've had several, and I have never been treated shortly or disrepectfully when I have one.

Edited by Dravin
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Our purpose in the temple is to perform work for our beloved dead. Inspiration and such that we receive in the temple is purely a side effect of our service there, like receiving inspiration on the stake onion farm. And contrary to popular lore, the celestial room is not an extension of the celestial kingdom; it is a room in the temple, made to represent the idea of celestial life, just as the (first) endowment room represents the garden of Eden and is not actually a little piece of it.

The celestial room is not designed as a place to go to speak with God. That's what your closet is for. If you receive guidance and revelation there, great! But you should not be going there in order to receive revelation. And kneeling in prayer in the celestial room is an open display of a private act that, to me, borders on vulgar.

Vort I have to heartily disagree with you on this. We have been told many times that we should go the temple to pray and find answers to our problems.

Here are just a couple of quotes from articles off LDS.ORG...

Finding Joy in Temple Service - Ensign Oct. 1994 - ensign

“The temple with its blessings helps us “come unto Christ” (Moro. 10:32). We can find knowledge, understanding, and joy when we attend the temple: first, through sacred priesthood ordinances for ourselves and then as proxy for our ancestors; and second, through personal revelation.”

“Peace and Personal Revelation

In addition to being the place where we perform temple ordinances for ourselves and our ancestors, the temple is a place where we can receive comfort and personal revelation. “When members of the Church are troubled or when critical decisions weigh heavily upon their minds, it is a common thing for them to go to the temple,” wrote Elder Boyd K. Packer. “It is a good place to take our cares. In the temple we can receive spiritual perspective. There, during the time of the temple service, we are put ‘out of the world.’ … There is something cleansing and clarifying about the spiritual atmosphere of the temple” (The Holy Temple, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1980, pp. 180–81).”

“President Ezra Taft Benson has set the example for us: “Temples are places of personal revelation,” he says. “When I have been weighed down by a problem or a difficulty, I have gone to the House of the Lord with a prayer in my heart for answers. These answers have come in clear and unmistakable ways” (Ensign, Aug. 1985, p. 8).”

Bring your personal challenges with you to the temple, meditate upon them, and seek answers. Solutions can come to you through personal revelation in the temple.”

The Doctrine of Temple Work - Liahona Aug. 2002 - liahona

The temple is a place of revelation, of inspiration, meditation, and peace—a place to restore ourselves, to clear our minds, to find answers to our prayers, and to enjoy the satisfaction of worship and service.”

Preparing for Your Temple Endowment - Liahona Aug. 1988 - liahona

“A temple, he said, is “a place of priesthood instruction, of peace, of covenants, of blessings, and of revelation. … All faithful members of the Church are invited and urged to make use of the temple and to enjoy its privileges.”

Salt Lake LDS (Mormon) Temple Dedicatory Prayer

This is from the dedicatory prayer for the Salt Lake Temple!

“Heavenly Father, when Thy people shall not have the opportunity of entering this holy house to offer their supplications unto Thee, and they are oppressed and in trouble, surrounded by difficulties or assailed by temptation and shall turn their faces towards this Thy holy house and ask Thee for deliverance, for help, for Thy power to be extended in their behalf, we beseech Thee, to look down from Thy holy habitation in mercy and tender compassion upon them, and listen to their cries.”

Frequently Asked Questions

“The temple is a peaceful, sacred place, set apart from the cares and turmoil of the world. All areas of the temple are beautifully and carefully maintained to preserve a spirit of reverence. Because it is the Lord’s house, and because of the sacred work performed there, in the temple we can feel the Spirit abundantly and feel close to the Lord. There we can receive personal revelation and spiritual strength to help us overcome our trials. This is part of the reason we are encouraged to attend the temple regularly.”

I added the bolding to the various quotes.

I could keep going and going. There are so many quotes proving that the temple is also a place for us to come and be close to Heavenly Father and pray for ourselves. If you truly don't believe this, then I am very sorry for you, because you have been missing out on one of the biggest blessings temple service brings us!!! I hope that you will rethink your position, and come enjoy these blessings with me!

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Here are some quotes on the Celestial Room... I added the bold.

Your Path to the Temple - Ensign Oct. 2010 - ensign

“Inside the temple is a beautiful, peaceful room called the celestial room. In the celestial room we feel close to Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, and we feel a little of what it will be like to live with Them in the celestial kingdom.”

Questions and Answers about the Temple - Friend Oct. 2009 - friend

“After you receive your endowment, you go into the celestial room. The beauty and reverence help you feel close to Heavenly Father.”

Closing Remarks - general-conference

“Every temple, large or small, has its beautiful celestial room. This room was created to represent the celestial kingdom. When the Mesa Arizona Temple was extensively renovated some years ago and was opened for public tours, one visitor described the celestial room as God’s living room. So it well might be. It is our privilege, unique and exclusive, while dressed in white, to sit at the conclusion of our ordinance work in the beautiful celestial room and ponder, meditate, and silently pray.

Here we can reflect on the great goodness of the Lord to us. Here we can reflect on the great plan of happiness which our Father has outlined for His children. And so I urge you, my brothers and sisters, do it while you have strength to do it. I know that when you get old, it becomes extremely difficult to get up and down. But what a great blessing it is.”

The temple gives us many blessings in many ways. One set of blessings is attached to recieving ordinances there, and then also doing proxy work for others who did not recieve those ordinances while living on earth. Another set of blessings is attached to being able to come to the temple for ourselves, as a refuge from the world, and to be able to commune with our Heavenly Father. I have heard it said that the Celestial Room is where the veil is the thinnest on this Earth, and I think that I have to agree. Why, when we have such a wonderful opportunity to be in "God's living room" wouldn't we want to take that opportunity to pray and be close to Heavenly Father?

Vort, I would be very interested to see any evidence to back up your position on the issue. And if you can't find any, I really do suggest that you take a second look at the beauty of the temple, and start to enjoy what you have been missing out on!!!

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I am actually a little shocked by some of the responses to this... I can't believe that there aren't others out there who have been so moved by coming into the Celestial room, and being in the temple that you were literally driven to your knees in prayer and worship. I fight the urge, now, and go somewhere else to do it, but, I remember the first time I did fall to my knees (again, alone in the Celestial room, no one else around - I didn't get caught the first 30 times I did it - hee hee hee) in prayer. What an amazingly wonderful feeling. To be as close to God as I can possibly be, on my knees, giving thanks, and listening to what promptings he gave me. It was a truly beautiful thing. No one else has ever felt this? In fact some think it is 'vulgar'?!? Wow. I must be going to a different church than the rest of you.

I have NEVER suggested that elderly people should be forced to pray on their knees, and would never imagine suggesting that. If someone is not physically able to pray on their knees (in the temple or at home) then I hope that they choose not to. I do not care to tell ANYONE how to pray. If you want to pray on your knees, or not on your kness, I don't really care. That is between you and God.

As for putting a heavy work load on temple workers, I do everything I can not to. I go out of my way to help the temple workers out. I have asked the temple matron about sitting in the Celestial room, and how long I could stay, just to make sure that I wasn't doing anything wrong (didn't even DAWN on me that kneeling could be inappropriate). If my being a the temple is putting too much of a burden on the temple worker's backs, then some thing is wrong, and I don't think it is with me. I have heard many times a call from our Prophet to GO to the temple. If the temple is understaffed, or staffed with fragile temple workers who can't deal with the burden of me sitting quietly in the celestial room (as I have been taught by the matron, I stopped kneeling a long time ago), then the church needs to change some policies. Or perhaps I am wrong, and I should try to only go every other month rather than once a month, to try to ease the temple worker's burdens?

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I am actually a little shocked by some of the responses to this... I can't believe that there aren't others out there who have been so moved by coming into the Celestial room, and being in the temple that you were literally driven to your knees in prayer and worship. I fight the urge, now, and go somewhere else to do it, but, I remember the first time I did fall to my knees (again, alone in the Celestial room, no one else around - I didn't get caught the first 30 times I did it - hee hee hee) in prayer. What an amazingly wonderful feeling. To be as close to God as I can possibly be, on my knees, giving thanks, and listening to what promptings he gave me. It was a truly beautiful thing. No one else has ever felt this? In fact some think it is 'vulgar'?!? Wow. I must be going to a different church than the rest of you.

That's a little melodramatic. We've not said that it is inappropriate to pray in the celestial room, just that the temples are instructed not to let people kneel to do so. It isn't the act of prayer that creates a problem; it's the act of kneeling. If you find it troubling that you cannot kneel, I'm sorry. But I don't really care. Part of that is because I contest what you say about the celestial room being where the veil is thinnest on the earth. I find the veil to be thinnest where I happen to be in the proper spirit of prayer and meditation, whether that be in my home, at the park, in the car, or unloading garbage at the dump.

I have NEVER suggested that elderly people should be forced to pray on their knees, and would never imagine suggesting that. If someone is not physically able to pray on their knees (in the temple or at home) then I hope that they choose not to. I do not care to tell ANYONE how to pray. If you want to pray on your knees, or not on your kness, I don't really care. That is between you and God.

In the celestial room, it isn't between you and God. The temple also has a say.

As for putting a heavy work load on temple workers, I do everything I can not to. I go out of my way to help the temple workers out. I have asked the temple matron about sitting in the Celestial room, and how long I could stay, just to make sure that I wasn't doing anything wrong (didn't even DAWN on me that kneeling could be inappropriate). If my being a the temple is putting too much of a burden on the temple worker's backs, then some thing is wrong, and I don't think it is with me. I have heard many times a call from our Prophet to GO to the temple. If the temple is understaffed, or staffed with fragile temple workers who can't deal with the burden of me sitting quietly in the celestial room (as I have been taught by the matron, I stopped kneeling a long time ago), then the church needs to change some policies. Or perhaps I am wrong, and I should try to only go every other month rather than once a month, to try to ease the temple worker's burdens?

You seem to have fallen into the trap that many people do where they believe that there are no temporal concerns within the temple. Having worked at the temple, I can speak from experience to say that there is a continual struggle to make sure it is properly staffed, that the workers are trained, and that visitors are not inconvenienced. But temporal concerns there are.

I used to laugh when I heard people say things like, "What I like about the temple is that there are no clocks to be found. It's like time doesn't matter." The truth is, the temple is littered with clocks. You just have to know where to look.

Despite all those temporal concerns, working in the temple was one of the most rewarding experiences of my life. And during that time, I rarely (if ever) felt the Spirit in the temple. But I often felt it very powerfully after I left and had time to ponder quietly in the wake of my service.

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Why would we not receive answers there? Or anywhere in the temple for that matter? The veil is so thin there that if we have the eyes to see it would be into the next world. I know that many eyes have seen and be touched from that world in the temple.

Outside the temple so many ways that satan can use to distract us and keep us from hearing what God wants us to know. If there is anywhere on earth that he is prevented from blinding us it has to be in the temple.

The temple is there to bless ones who have gone on but it is also for us to be blessed and not just for doing ordinances. When ever I went to the temple I could know my son might be walking there next to me. I know he has been there with us. What a blessing that is to me. If my son can be there then how much stronger would the connection between us and the Holy Spirit be?

We may not be able to kneel there but we can pray there and receive answers, perhaps better than anywhere on earth. If the prophet and his apostles go for important prayers and answers it makes sense that we can as well.

I have never prayed in a closet. Mostly I pray where ever I am with my eyes wide open. My 'closet' is my mind, soul and body. My own temple. Praying in/at a temple is very good way to pray.

Frankly I find it very difficult to understand how a person does not feel the spirit in the temple.

As far as clocks go, isnt it true that the clocks are for the workers and are not obvious to the patrons so they are not distracted by clock watching?

Edited by annewandering
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