Why do Jehovah's Witnesses proselytize?

[Guest]

If they believe that only 144,000 will make it to Heaven, why are they recruiting? Wouldn't that be reducing their odds?

That might sound a little tongue-in-cheek, but it's a sincere question. There's an older man that was very pushy with us when we lived one town over about 6 years ago, and I am pretty sure the same guy was knocking doors in our new neighborhood this morning. What's his motivation?

[Jenamarie]

From my (non-comprehensive) understanding, yes, there are only 144,000 who will make it to Heaven, but there's still a special place reserved for other righteous people, and those who other Christians would say qualify for Hell would simply cease to exist. And having more converts doesn't reduce ones odds of being one of the 144,000, because God chooses who those people are, and He (somehow) lets you know.

[prisonchaplain]

The 144K are the little flock, who will rule and reign with Christ, from heaven. The Great flock are all faithful Jehovah's Witnesses, who expect to live for eternity on paradise earth.

[maiku]

The 144K are the little flock, who will rule and reign with Christ, from heaven. The Great flock are all faithful Jehovah's Witnesses, who expect to live for eternity on paradise earth.

That's what they believe, yes. I've had many dealings with the JW pre, post mission, and even in the work place and I've sat down many a time to compare doctrine.

Their goal isn't to reach heaven (be one of the 144K) but rather to avoid being destroyed (as in ceasing to exist) by Jehovah. Their version of salvation is the equivalent of a never ending millennium on earth.

I even asked a few what they believe will happen after millions and millions of years on earth, whether they would progress or not, and they all said they don't know, that it wasn't revealed to them.

[annewandering]

Wow I never knew they thought the people who dont make it just vanish. That is a scary idea.

[UrbanFool]

The 144K are already chosen from what I understand. No JW today is trying to be in that mix. They think the Earth itself is going to be paradise. No heaven needed.

[Carolyn_Neal]

This is lovely, respectful discourse. Regarding the figure of 144,000 -- it is not a matter of belief. It is a matter of what is recorded in the Scriptures. If one comes to believe that the ancient Hebrew and Christian Greek Scriptures are indeed what the Scriptures themselves claim to be -- the inspired Word of God -- then one invests the time and energy to become familiar with those writings. It is not Witnesses who claim 144,000 human beings are to be made priests and kings over the Earth; we didn't invent that figure. It is recorded in the book of Revelation three times: Rev 7:1-8, Rev 14:1 and Rev 14:3. And if they are to rule as kings and priests, under Christ, over the Earth -- who would they be ruling over? Human beings are terrestrial creatures, made of the same chemical elements as everything else on the planet. We live on a terrarium. When plants, animals and humans die, we disintegrate, returning to dust (Genesis 2:7, Genesis 3:19, Daniel 12:2). The Bible is filled with references of reconstituting the Earth, returning it to its original pristine condition (Isaiah 65:17, Isaiah 66:22, 2 Peter 3:13). I am a logical person, and I love this planet. To me, being able to live forever on this planet with pure water, food, and beauty, and in harmony with all others, and being able to finally explore my full human potential -- whether it be in the realm or art or science or universal exploration or whatever might creatively come to mind -- is an exciting prospect and worth pursuing.

[prisonchaplain]

Well then...let's pursue it. What might an eternity on earth look like? Would population be limited? Would those on earth be "slaves" to the humans in heaven? How would Jehovah's presence be felt on the earth? Would it be like now, or something different?

[Carolyn_Neal]

These are wonderful questions. I'm working right now and haven't the time to reply. I just responded to another query offline. But I will respond at first opportunity. Kindest regards . . .

[UrbanFool]

Well I have serious problems with meat-eaters becoming grain-eaters. I know this from a decade at the wildlife center and one couple who decided since they were vegetarian, the great horned owl baby they found was to be vegetarian as well. By the time we got it, its bones would easily bend. We had to put it down because there was no way of fixing the damage. The whole thought makes my blood run cold. Not exactly paradise.

[Guest]

I think that with resurrection (for man and beast), out bodies and our needs change.

I've learned a lot here, thank you. I look forward to the answers to pc's questions, because they are interesting ones.

My dad worked for years for a business owned by a family of JW's, and now my oldest brother is the manager for their business. Things have always been respectful and kind between all of them. I appreciate that.

[Carolyn_Neal]

At the beginning of creation animals were vegetarian. Genesis 1:29-30: “ And God went on to say: ‘Here I have given to you all vegetation bearing seed which is on the surface of the whole Earth and every tree on which there is the fruit of a tree bearing seed. To you let it serve as food. And to every wild beast of the Earth and to every flying creature of the heavens and to everything moving upon the Earth in which there is life as a soul I have given all green vegetation for food. . .” We have only known the Earth and its living organisms in distortion. We and the animals have only ever known disease, death, fear. We have never lived in a pristine environment with living creatures in perfect condition. From our seriously impaired mental capability, imagining what that would be like takes great effort for us. But for the all-powerful person who created the universe, created the Earth and its creatures, created DNA and its instructional codes, correcting this and turning Earthly creatures into a perfect condition is nothing. Isaiah 6-9 tells us: “The wolf will actually reside for a while with the male lamb, and with the kid the leopard itself will lie down, and the calf and maned young lion and the well-fed animal all together; and a mere little boy will be leader over them . . . Even the lion will eat straw just like the bull. And the sucking child will certainly play upon the hole of the cobra; and upon the light aperture of a poisonous snake will a weaned child actually put his own hand. They will not do any harm or cause any ruin in all my holy mountain; because the Earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters are covering the very sea.” God is love. We were made in his image, with his qualities. We were meant to admire all that God created, to protect, to husband the Earth and its plants and animals. We were not meant to harm ourselves and other living creatures. We have despoiled the planet. Human beings are afraid of each other; the animals are afraid of us. The planet needs relief, we need relief, animals need relief. As noted in Isaiah, Jehovah promises to correct all this.

[prisonchaplain]

I can certainly agree with Carolyn that fruits, vegetation and grains from a world without sin and distorted nature would be far superior to the best meat our current fallen planet can produce.

[Carolyn_Neal]

The Bible is a digest, a roadmap; it doesn't explain in detail every past or future condition or event. But it does give us a wonderful glimpse into what the future will be like.

No more sickness, old age, or death: "At that time the eyes of the blind ones will be opened, and the very ears of the deaf ones will be unstopped. At that time the lame one will climb up just as a stag does, and the tongue of the speechless one will cry out in gladness." (Isaiah 35:5-6) "God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away." (Revelation 21:3-4)

Abundance of food for all: "The Earth itself will certainly give its produce; God, our God will bless us." (Psalm 67:6) "There will come to be plenty of grain on the Earth; on the top of the mountains there will be an overflow." (Psalm 72:16)

Suitable homes for everyone and enjoyable work for all: "They will certainly build houses and have occupancy, and they will certainly plant vineyards and eat their fruitage. They will not build and someone else have occupancy; they will not plant and someone else do the eating.” (Isaiah 65:21-22)

No more crime, violence, or war: “As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth.” (Proverbs 2:22) “They will have to beat their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.” (Isaiah 2:4)

Freedom from fear and peace everywhere: “They will actually dwell in security, with no one to make them tremble.” (Ezekiel 34:28) “They will not do harm or cause any ruin in all my holy mountain, because the Earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters are covering the very sea.” (Isaiah 11:9)

Resurrection of the dead: “The hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out.” (John 5:28-29) “. . .There is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.” (Acts 24:15)

More to come later about eternity. I’m off to a meeting. Sorry – I typed quickly. If I typed any Scriptural references incorrectly, just let me know.

[maiku]

I can certainly agree with Carolyn that fruits, vegetation and grains from a world without sin and distorted nature would be far superior to the best meat our current fallen planet can produce.

Besides, nowadays there are chefs who can whip up some pretty mean tofu

[Dravin]

Besides, nowadays there are chefs who can whip up some pretty mean tofu

Bah... as long as I can still have cheese.... glorious cheese.

[annewandering]

especially squeeky cheese.

[prisonchaplain]

I wonder what everyone else thinks...because for the most part I agree that there will be a new earth very much the way she describes. I question that only 144K Christ-followers will rule and reign in heaven, but the question 0f who it is that will populate the new earth is a good one. Thoughts?

[annewandering]

Well it is thought by many LDS that this earth will be transformed into the Celestial Kingdom so the people here would be the ones in that kingdom. :)

[Carolyn_Neal]

The Bible doesn't tell us whether or not the population would be limited. Nor does it tell us how society will be structured. Just as the Bible is our guide at this time, in the new system new information would need to be disseminated and people educated about how to live in that system. (Revelation 12:20) But I think it is not something people on Earth would have to worry about. "Are 10 billion (people) unbearable or would the earth be able to support them all?" is a question asked by Hans W. Jurgens, professor of anthropology and demography at the University of Kiel, Federal Republic of Germany. Writing in the magazine Geo, he stated that the Earth has enough "space for many more billions of people" who could live tolerably well if corresponding changes in living and economic conditions were made. Nationalism, he stated, stands in the way: "As long as we permit and even promote national egotism -- and the United Nations organization unintentionally plays a disastrous role in this matter -- we will scarcely be able to utilize our Earth to the full capacity that, in principle, is altogether possible." In the new system the Earth will not be divided by selfish, nationalistic interests, but one that is righteous, peaceful, and capable of providing abundance for all. Astronomers believe the universe is an expanse of some 14 billion light years, filled with billions of galaxies composed of billions of stars. Perhaps Jehovah will have prepared other Earths for us to discover and enjoy!

[Carolyn_Neal]

Since Jehovah God is the Almighty, the Sovereign Ruler of the universe, and the Creator of all things, he alone has absolute, unlimited freedom. (Genesis 17:1; Jeremiah 10:7, 10; Daniel 4:34-35; Revelation 4:11) All others must move and act within the limitations of ability given them and subject themselves to his universal laws. (Isaiah 45:9; Romans 9:20-21) For example, consider gravity and the laws governing chemical reactions, influence of the sun, and growth; the moral laws; the rights and actions of others that influence one’s freedom. The freedom of all of God’s creatures is therefore a relative freedom. There is a distinction between limited freedom and bondage. Freedom within God-given limitations brings happiness. Bondage to creatures, to imperfection, to weaknesses, or to wrong ideologies brings oppression and unhappiness. Freedom is also to be differentiated from self-determination, that is, ignoring God’s laws and determining for oneself what is right and what is wrong. Such leads to encroachments on the rights of others and causes trouble, as can be seen from the effects of the independent, self-willed spirit introduced to Adam and Eve by the serpent in Eden. (Genesis 3:4, 6, 11-19) True freedom is bounded by law, God’s law, which allows full expression of the individual in a proper, up-building, and beneficial way and which recognizes the rights of others, contributing to happiness for all. (Psalm 144:15; Luke 11:28; James 1:25)

[Carolyn_Neal]

Some people object that everlasting life on Earth would be boring, no more than a frittering away of eternity with meaningless pastimes endlessly repeated. Perhaps the eternity they imagine is an endless extension of present lifestyles and conditions that to many would seem to be boring and meaningless. Yet, in the paradise that God will restore, he promises man "exquisite delight in the abundance of peace." (Psalm 37:11) Such a life will give mankind the opportunity to acquire knowledge of Jehovah's creations and to dedicate time to developing any or all of the fascinating skills, studies, and occupations that we can now only dream about. Dr. Aubrey de Grey, a Cambridge University geneticist engaged in life-extension research, observed that "People with a good education and the time to use it never get bored today and can't imagine ever running out of new things they'd like to do." And God's inspired Word says that "mankind (will) never find out the work that the true God has made from the start to the finish." (Ecclesiastes 3:11) Try to grasp the endless possibilities to conceive, create, and construct things. There will be no limit to the opportunities for us to develop and make use of our creativity. When we reflect on the abundance of creation – from the billions of galaxies to the tiniest subatomic particles -- it is obvious that eternity is the only time measure that can do justice to life's possibilities.

Further, the Bible shows that by means of a resurrection, living forever will also be extended to those who are dead. (John 5:28-29). Many of the mysteries of history might become clear to us when those who experienced them can fill us in on the details and answer our questions. Think of all the interesting people throughout history we would like to sit down to dinner with. And they will be curious to know what happened in our lifetimes.

Life will not be boring. It will get more and more interesting as time goes on. Throughout eternity there will always be more to learn and new horizons to explore.

[Carolyn_Neal]

Right now we feel Jehovah’s spirit through his written Word and through all his creation on the planet. But 1 Corinthians 15:23-28 explains that Christ, after he has destroyed all earthly governments and rules as king until God puts all enemies “under his feet,” will then return the cleansed earth and its inhabitants back to his Father, to the him that created all of it, so that “God may be all things to everyone.” Jehovah will probably then interact directly with us as he did with Adam and Eve: “Later they heard the voice of Jehovah God walking in the garden about the breezy part of the day . . .” So beautiful an idea, to finally be reunited with the Father that created all of us and to have him converse with us directly . . .

[norah63]

May I slip in the conversation and ask a question ?

Have always wondered why, on visits, that JW's do not ask or accept prayer with those they contact?

Having study time with some for a time, it would seem approprate to open or close with a prayer.

All of the information so far has been very enlightning. It is good to learn from one another.

[skalenfehl]

Wow I never knew they thought the people who dont make it just vanish. That is a scary idea.

Actually not. I'd rather not exist than live in a lake of fire and brimstone whose flame ascends forever. The last time I went in for surgery, I was anesthetized, of course. Later I opened my eyes and had no recollection of being under. So then it doesn't matter to me if I don't exist because I won't know any better. This assuming the Jehova's Witnesses are correct.