The coming of the Holy Ghost


maiku
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Here's something I got a few times on my mission and was wondering about:

I've been told by some evangelicals that the reason God stopped calling prophets was because the Holy Ghost replaced them after the resurrection of Christ.

Is that a common belief?

If so, does that mean that evangelicals (or any non-LDS to broaden the audience) believe that the Holy Ghost was not on earth BEFORE Christ was resurrected?

Any input on this would be appreciated.

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YEah, I was raised a baptist. Converted as a young adult. WE were taught that the Holy Ghost was first felt at the day of Pentecost when all the Apostles began speaking in the tongues of all the foreign travelers who were there for the holiday. That is why Peter failed to be strong enough to not claim Christ when asked after he was arrested. That's what I was taught as a Baptist.

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We were taught that there was a more direct communication before Pentecost , LIke an angel appearing, or more direct voice from God. Burning bush situation. JEsus Told the deciples that after he left there there would be a comforter come. Hence the belief the Holy ghost did not communicate with man until After Christ ascended.

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I think you will find that our general interpretation of the word prophet is not the same as many, if not most, Evangelicals.

We have a prophet, seer and revelator and seldom distinguish what each of those titles means by themselves. They have entirely different, although connected, functions.

se·er1    [see-er for 1; seer for 2–4] Show IPA

noun

1.

a person who sees; observer.

2.

a person who prophesies future events; prophet: Industry seers predicted higher profits.

3.

a person endowed with profound moral and spiritual insight or knowledge; a wise person or sage who possesses intuitive powers.

4.

a person who is reputed to have special powers of divination, as a crystal gazer or palmist

From an LDS perspective we have to add the ability to use the seer stones, which is, as I recall from seminary lessons, the original meaning of the word.

proph·et   [prof-it] Show IPA

noun

1.

a person who speaks for God or a deity, or by divine inspiration.

2.

(in the Old Testament)

a.

a person chosen to speak for God and to guide the people of Israel: Moses was the greatest of Old Testament prophets.

b.

( often initial capital letter ) one of the Major or Minor Prophets.

c.

one of a band of ecstatic visionaries claiming divine inspiration and, according to popular belief, possessing magical powers.

d.

a person who practices divination.

3.

one of a class of persons in the early church, next in order after the apostles, recognized as inspired to utter special revelations and predictions. 1 Cor. 12:28.

4.

the Prophet, Muhammad, the founder of Islam.

5.

a person regarded as, or claiming to be, an inspired teacher or leader.

EX

As we use it then: A person who receives revelation directly from God. I believe 5 is the more common usage for present day prophets.

rev·e·la·tor   [rev-uh-ley-ter] Show IPA

noun

a person who makes a revelation.

Origin:

1795–1805; < Late Latin revēlātor, equivalent to Latin revēlā ( re ) ( see reveal) + -tor -tor

So the words are similar but not the same even though we tend to use prophet to cover all three terms.

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Thanks everyone for the previous responses.

What I'm trying to ask the non-LDS posters here is how did God communicate with Old Testament people if the Holy Ghost was not yet "poured out"?

Also, what about the instances in the Old Testament that state that the Spirit of God spoke, whispered, etc. with various men?

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Here's something I got a few times on my mission and was wondering about:

I've been told by some evangelicals that the reason God stopped calling prophets was because the Holy Ghost replaced them after the resurrection of Christ.

Is that a common belief?

If so, does that mean that evangelicals (or any non-LDS to broaden the audience) believe that the Holy Ghost was not on earth BEFORE Christ was resurrected?

Any input on this would be appreciated.

Is this a common belief? I don't know. It's not what I thought of concerning the need for prophets. I think personally for me, I always looked at Christ's life and atonement more as why God does not call the OT type prophet anymore. Prophets were mankind's link to God, now our link is through Christ.

M.

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I have a unique view as a pentecostal...we do believe the Holy Spirit was active throughout the Old Testament. He would come upon prophets, as well as kings, and others. Then he would leave. Jesus prophesied that He needed to return to the Father so the Holy Ghost would come. The sense was that he would come in a more potent way. The result would be a massive infusion of power to witness.

On the Day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit came and actually filled people. The Spirit now resides with us, rather than just coming and going. There is an added power. Healings are more common, demons flee at the name of Jesus, and there are more frequent public expressions of prophesy, and the interpretations of tongues.

What seems to have happened, from our perspective, is that the role of prophet has been replaced by the gift of prophesy. We still hear prophetic words, but they now come more frequently, and much more locally.

As a direct answer to the OP, though, I'd hesitate to say that the coming of the Holy Spirit was mean to replace the OT role of the prophets.

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Correct me if I'm wrong Maureen, but I think the scripture often used in conjunction with your belief is Hebrews 1:1-2

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

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Mordobund, I'll let Maureen answer, though it does seem the passage at least fits or relates. What I wonder is why LDS believe that the gift of prophesy, as spelled out in 1 Corinthians 12 & 14, seems largely absent in the restored church? If traditionalists seem complacent about the lack of OT-style prophets, I have to wonder why the types of experiences described and prescribed in the New Testament seem to be dormant? Or is it?

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Correct me if I'm wrong Maureen, but I think the scripture often used in conjunction with your belief is Hebrews 1:1-2

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Yes mordorbund, I believe you are correct.

M.

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Mordobund, I'll let Maureen answer, though it does seem the passage at least fits or relates. What I wonder is why LDS believe that the gift of prophesy, as spelled out in 1 Corinthians 12 & 14, seems largely absent in the restored church? If traditionalists seem complacent about the lack of OT-style prophets, I have to wonder why the types of experiences described and prescribed in the New Testament seem to be dormant? Or is it?

Officially, prophecy is not dormant. We take it as an article of faith to "believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, the interpretation of tongues, and so forth."

We have a strong top-down hierarchy for revelation based on a circle of stewardship. A person may prophesy about thus and such, but no one has to believe it until the same secret is revealed to someone in authority. As a result, when we look for instances of the gift of prophecy, we are left with those who have stewardship over us. If my father prophecied something concerning my children, it is something we would treasure in our family, but would probably not wind up in the Ensign for everyone to read. Most records that we have of prophesies then are from Church Leadership. Maybe others can comment better, but it does seem like there was a stronger outpouring of this particular gift early in the church. Brigham Young once said something to the effect of "any time I need a prophecy, I turn to Heber Kimball". I can think of various prophecies from Heber Kimball, Wilford Woodruff (both as an apostle and prophet), and other early apostles, but I'm hard pressed to think of some modern ones.

There is a classic BYU story of a student who was speaking at the commencement ceremony. He was let in on the news that the campus would have to shut down due to lack of funding. The student in his address shared that the campus would not in fact be shut down because he saw in his dream the night previous that the campus would actually expand past its current bounds. Donations then poured in from the alumni to keep the school running. Since that time the campus has indeed expanded.

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So, if someone in a ward had a message he felt was given him/her by the Holy Ghost, and that it was meant for the ward, how would s/he go about have this presented. Is there a means of "testing the spirit" to see if it is from God? Could the bishop say he had a testimony of the message's divine origin? Or, is such a thing really unheard of?

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So, if someone in a ward had a message he felt was given him/her by the Holy Ghost, and that it was meant for the ward, how would s/he go about have this presented. Is there a means of "testing the spirit" to see if it is from God? Could the bishop say he had a testimony of the message's divine origin? Or, is such a thing really unheard of?

That person should talk to the bishop of the ward.

The thing to remember, PC, is that we strongly believe one cannot receive revelation for someone(s) that is not under our stewardship. In other words, I can receive revelation for my family, but not for your family. I can be inspired to talk to you or your family, but to receive actual commandments is simply not how we believe the Lord works.

So, if someone received revelation in the form of commandments or changes to policies or procedures, it is likely that person is simply wrong. If the Lord wants policies or procedures to change, then He will instruct those who have stewardship.

The bishop does counsel with other leaders in the ward (male and females). It is possible that someone could receive inspiration from God to make suggestions to the bishop for changes and then the bishop could then pray about those suggestions and receive revelation to make those changes. Then again, I can make a suggestion based on inspiration and the bishop can dismiss that suggestion (I believe that personal inspiration/revelation is not always about other people, but about teaching me something).

But, I inferred from your post that "revelation" meant more than an inspiration to make suggestions.

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Officially, prophecy is not dormant. We take it as an article of faith to "believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, the interpretation of tongues, and so forth."

We have a strong top-down hierarchy for revelation based on a circle of stewardship. A person may prophesy about thus and such, but no one has to believe it until the same secret is revealed to someone in authority. As a result, when we look for instances of the gift of prophecy, we are left with those who have stewardship over us. If my father prophecied something concerning my children, it is something we would treasure in our family, but would probably not wind up in the Ensign for everyone to read. Most records that we have of prophesies then are from Church Leadership. Maybe others can comment better, but it does seem like there was a stronger outpouring of this particular gift early in the church. Brigham Young once said something to the effect of "any time I need a prophecy, I turn to Heber Kimball". I can think of various prophecies from Heber Kimball, Wilford Woodruff (both as an apostle and prophet), and other early apostles, but I'm hard pressed to think of some modern ones.

When you think about it, alot of personal experiences of spiritual manifestations are not published. We do believe in gift of tongues, healings, raising the dead, rebuking evil spirits, etc. But, stories of these things are rarely, if ever, published or even shared.

I, personally, think it is because we are taught that these experiences are sacred and if we share them with "men" then we will receive a reward of "men".

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So, if someone in a ward had a message he felt was given him/her by the Holy Ghost, and that it was meant for the ward, how would s/he go about have this presented. Is there a means of "testing the spirit" to see if it is from God? Could the bishop say he had a testimony of the message's divine origin? Or, is such a thing really unheard of?

beefche's answer is spot-on. Here is an example from my own life. Well, second-hand, but still, something that touched me directly:

While I was growing up, there was a period of time when we were in some pretty desperate financial straits and, as a result of the stress, my mother had some pretty specific spiritual, household, and emotional needs. One day, her Relief Society president showed up at the door and said, "I was praying about you and I felt like you needed thus-and-such," and then proceeded to spend time with her and minister to her in exactly the way she needed.

Mom was profoundly grateful, of course, and over the ensuing months she wanted to repay this good woman's kindness. After many weeks and even months of prayer, she asked God again to reveal to her what she could do to help this woman and minister to her needs as the woman had done for my mother, and she received a very specific answer: "That is not your concern."

Mom was baffled, because at that time she did not understand the principle of revelation as beefche has explained it. But the RS president had stewardship over my mother's welfare, and so was able to receive revelation on her behalf. My mother, in contrast, had no stewardship over the RS president, and thus was not in a position to receive such specific and private revelation, no matter how sincere she was.

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But, I inferred from your post that "revelation" meant more than an inspiration to make suggestions.

It means more, and I see it often taking the form of commands--though I the word admonition seems more precise. On the other hand, such revelations are not generally directed towards an individual. Instead, they are spoken to the congregation, with each individual responsible to discern if the message is something meant particularly for him or her. Also, leadership is responsible to discern if the message itself is from the Spirit or not.

For example, "Thus saieth the Lord, the piano is too loud," would likely require correction. The minister would say, "Brothers and sisters, sometimes we perceive things a certain way, and we may feel that God agrees with us, but my sense is that what we just heard is a private opinion, and not counsel from the Lord."

However, I've personally never heard such an off proclamation. Instead, we hear words of encouragement, sometimes calls to repentance--sometimes a combination of hope and warning. Once the message is given, leadership discerns how to respond. Sometimes it is simply to encourage us to take the words to heart, offering a brief summary of what was spoken. Other times we will be called to corporate prayer, and encouraged to silently commune with God over the message. Nearly every time I have given such a message, I find that the talk given later (sermon or homily) directly relates. All that to say that there is stewardship, and we are very cautious about prophecies that are directed to other individuals, as that type of interaction could easily be abused.

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It means more, and I see it often taking the form of commands--though I the word admonition seems more precise. On the other hand, such revelations are not generally directed towards an individual. Instead, they are spoken to the congregation, with each individual responsible to discern if the message is something meant particularly for him or her. Also, leadership is responsible to discern if the message itself is from the Spirit or not.

For example, "Thus saieth the Lord, the piano is too loud," would likely require correction. The minister would say, "Brothers and sisters, sometimes we perceive things a certain way, and we may feel that God agrees with us, but my sense is that what we just heard is a private opinion, and not counsel from the Lord."

However, I've personally never heard such an off proclamation. Instead, we hear words of encouragement, sometimes calls to repentance--sometimes a combination of hope and warning. Once the message is given, leadership discerns how to respond. Sometimes it is simply to encourage us to take the words to heart, offering a brief summary of what was spoken. Other times we will be called to corporate prayer, and encouraged to silently commune with God over the message. Nearly every time I have given such a message, I find that the talk given later (sermon or homily) directly relates. All that to say that there is stewardship, and we are very cautious about prophecies that are directed to other individuals, as that type of interaction could easily be abused.

From the LDS way of thinking, as a minister or pastor we would think you would have stewardship to receive such revelation. However, from an LDS perspective, a member of your congregation would not receive such revelation for others (or if he/she thought she did, it would not be appropriate to share that with others since we believe that there is a "system" organized by God to handle such).

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Vort, your example is precious. We would call that "being led by the Spirit." I suppose it is a revelation, though we see it more as day to day walking with God. I prepare for a particular task, but feel prompted to do something else. Later I realize God used my change of direction to bring about an opportunity to bless someone. When it comes to those with spiritual stewardship (authority) over us, most often we would simply be prompted to pray, and to encourage.

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From the LDS way of thinking, as a minister or pastor we would think you would have stewardship to receive such revelation. However, from an LDS perspective, a member of your congregation would not receive such revelation for others (or if he/she thought she did, it would not be appropriate to share that with others since we believe that there is a "system" organized by God to handle such).

You remind me that we share certain spiritual experiences and practices, but it is dangerous to try too hard to make direct connections. There are times when LDS seem very pentecostal, and then I read something like this, which seems so very Catholic.

It is great that we can have these conversations though. :)

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I wasn't meaning to make a direct connection. I was trying to explain the LDS way of thinking of revelation as you asked in a previous post. I was using your example to explain our beliefs.

And yes, I've always appreciated your contributions to these discussions. I've come to understand more of the traditional Christianity/Pentecostal beliefs and practices because of your explanations. Thank you.

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Beefche...I think I am the one guilty of trying to connect the similarities too directly. You have done an awesome job of explaining LDS practice and thinking.

I'll never forget the time that I was remarking to a Lubavitcher rabbi how some of the ecstatic experiences they have impressed me so. I said, "You folk must be the Pentecostals of Judaism." I'm not sure, but the look he sported made me think he wanted to strangle me. :-)

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And just to clarify my earlier post, when I used the term "prophecy", I meant it as something more than "revelation". Every conference we are given words of encouragement, counsel and commandment. The Apostles and Prophet speak in their role of prophet in the Old Testament sense (a prophet is a person who speaks for God, and only sometimes does that include prophecy). When I talked about prophecy, I meant future predictions and such. Joseph prophecied of the Civil War; Heber prophecied that a certain person would receive specific items before the end of the day; Wilford prophecied that more would be revealed concerning the work for the dead. That's what I meant - future events that are spoken of with authority.

PrisonChaplain, do you have the same meaning with prophecy, or is it the same as revelation (instead of a subset)?

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