Why have we been given bodies?


maiku
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I was curious as to what others think about this. LDS believe that one of the principal reasons we are here on earth is to receive a body. This is mainly because we believe that God has a body and His plan of Happiness for us if for us to become more like Him, ever increasing in happiness and eternal joy as we do so.

For others however that believe that God has no body, my question is, why then did He give us bodies?

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One thing to keep in mind is that a premortal existence for humans is not a mainstream Christian doctrine (to my understanding). So the concept, that we'd exist without ever having had a body is not necessarily shared.

Edited by Dravin
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Also that we are made of a different substance than God. All substance, other than God, is imperfect. So a body is the substance God made us out of, at least according to my understanding of traditional Christianity.

Thanks for your response.

How is God made of some other substance than us if, according to traditional Christianity, He was born of a woman?

Doesn't that also make Him a part of "our" substance?

At least corporally, right?

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Thanks for your response.

How is God made of some other substance than us if, according to traditional Christianity, He was born of a woman?

Doesn't that also make Him a part of "our" substance?

At least corporally, right?

Trintarianingly speaking the substance of import is, for lack of a better term, Godness. God has it, we don't. That Christ (which is only part of the Trinity, keep in mind that God the Father has no body which means physicality cannot be a defining characteristic of divinity) has a physical body doesn't mean we share that Godness anymore than the fact that both people and squirrels have bodies means squirrels share our humanity. At least as far as I understand the issue.

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maiku, God is Spirit.

The doctrine of the Incarnation is that God became Man. His humanity was not divine and his divinity was not human. He was fully both.

To answer your question.

God created us out of perfect love. He didn't need to create us, but He did/does. He desires our love in return. Why create us as we are? Because that is His desire. I don't know of any outside of Mormonism who view a body as something needed to be a god in the next life. To be blunt, but not meaning to insult, it's an odd belief.

Edited by madeleine1
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maiku, God is Spirit.

The doctrine of the Incarnation is that God became Man. His humanity was not divine and his divinity was not human. He was fully both.

To answer your question.

God created us out of perfect love. He didn't need to create us, but He did/does. He desires our love in return. Why create us as we are? Because that is His desire. I don't know of any outside of Mormonism who view a body as something needed to be a god in the next life. To be blunt, but not meaning to insult, it's an odd belief.

My question isn't about becoming God in the next life or anything to do with "mormonism".

I'm sorry but I don't see how your response is an answer to the question.

According to non-LDS beliefs, if God is Spirit and we are created in His image, what reason is there for giving us a body?

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My question isn't about becoming God in the next life or anything to do with "mormonism".

I'm sorry but I don't see how your response is an answer to the question.

According to non-LDS beliefs, if God is Spirit and we are created in His image, what reason is there for giving us a body?

There's really not much difference between Catholic and LDS doctrine on the body. The body was created by God to be the vessel that holds the Spirit.

The body then, will die, be resurrected, and then transformed into a perfected state that will exist for all eternity onward.

Why a body of flesh and blood and not... amoeba or something? Eh. God is God - that's what He deems as the best vehicle for his creatures to share in his perfect love.

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And this is one reason I'm LDS. It offers more answers that (to me) seem more satisfying, and that definitely do not require lots of unnecessary calls to mystery.

We understand why we have a body. It isn't a mystery. We understand why God created us. It isn't a mystery. We understand the term "perfected" actually better than Trinitarians. For us, it means we can be exactly like God. For Trinitarians, it means something else, as we can never quite be like God, as he is made of pure substance and we are not.

For us, we understand clearly the relationship between Father and Jesus. There is no mystery that requires jumping through mental hoops to try and explain it.

So, when Madeleine claims it to be odd, I disagree. It is simplicity. It is based on concepts far older than the Catholic Church and restored by modern prophets. That God is a perfected and glorified man is something very easy to understand. That God is three in one and one in three, of a substance called Spirit that cannot be described, but is defined as incomprehensible, IS incomprehensible and not understandable. Though the popular belief, it really is the odd duck out.

So, we come to the point of this:

Either God wants to be known, or he does not. If he is unknowable and his position is unattainable, then he cannot be known. Yet Jesus told us that eternal life is to know the Father and the Son (John 17:3). He told us that if you know the Son, you know the Father, meaning the one is like the other: if you see the mortal Christ, you can then understand the immortal Father!

Occam's Razor requires the simplest and most logical method. God wants to be known, and has shown throughout the Bible that he is anthropomorphic. Ancient Jews and early Christians would not have understood the Trinity, as it is based on Hellenist ideas and not on revelation or scripture.

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*shrug* I see the LDS view as more complex, creating more questions than it does answers, which LDS will say to those questions, they don't know. So there isn't anything going on in Mormonism in this regards that is any different than anyone else.

What kind of questions?

I don't see more questions on the LDS side of things...

But you're right - there is nothing different about the LDS in this regard than anyone else because fact is - we don't see God.

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Why do you need a body to be a god?

You're missing the point of the question. This has nothing to do about becoming gods or anything like that. I do appreciate your input however so I'll reemphasize.

LDS believe that God is infinitely happy, perfectly happy. He wants to share that happiness with us, so He created us and also created a plan for our eternal happiness as well. We call this plan "the plan of salvation". You and I probably agree nearly perfectly on this point so far.

Now here's the question:

If God is a spirit without a body, what is the point in giving us one? What is even the point in giving us corporal temptations and experiences if He Himself has no body?

If God is perfectly happy without a body, and He desires our eternal happiness, there should be no point in giving us a body since He achieved perfect happiness without one.

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Well, that doesn't answer my question, does it? Only brings up more questions....where and/or from whom did God get a body from?

God did not have to create us, He chose to create us. He created us out of perfect love, and only desires our love in return, to love Him with all our might, mind and strength. Why would you think perfect happiness requires a body? God is perfect and does not. Our happiness is dependent on Him.

God does not tempt us. He gifted us with a body. St. Paul teaches us to submit ourselves to Jesus, throwing off the desires of the flesh. Therein lies the Way to perfect happiness.

Edited by madeleine1
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Well, that doesn't answer my question, does it? Only brings up more questions....where and/or from whom did God get a body from?

God did not have to create us, He chose to create us. He created us out of perfect love, and only desires our love in return, to love Him with all our might, mind and strength. Why would you think perfect happiness requires a body? God is perfect and does not. Our happiness is dependent on Him.

God does not tempt us. He gifted us with a body. St. Paul teaches us to submit ourselves to Jesus, throwing off the desires of the flesh. Therein lies the Way to perfect happiness.

I'll answer your question if you attempt to answer mine.

Since God has a body, and His ultimate desire for us is that we be more like Him in order to enjoy maximum happiness as He does, He has provided us with one of the tools to become more like Him, a body. While here on Earth, we are to receive this body, learn how to bridle the passions associated with it, and resurrect in it after we die. All this is done so that we may become more like Him, and that is eternal happiness

Matthew 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

Your turn.

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We are created in God's image. I know lots of mainstream Christians who say they believe this, and yet the churches they belong to do not teach it.

This whole 'God is only a Spirit' is so misleading, pale, and flimsy when in the light of the truth. God is male, God smells and sees and walks and talks. He is referred to as a Father, not a Mother, not a cloud "My CLOUD in heaven...?" nope Jesus called Him the FATHER. How much more clear can it get?

Where in the Bible does this claim of God not having a body come from? How can Jesus be on His right hand? How can He sit on a throne? How did he walk in the garden?

We have a body because He has a body. Jesus has a body.

Maiku, I understand why you ask that question, but I have to tell you...They don't know. They don't know what the plan is, they don't know there is a plan. They think we are here to please God, they might say, "He gave us bodies because he loves us" but then how could he love us before we had bodies if we don't exist before we get them?

and that's all they know. They don't know the meaning of life, they don't know why God created this world and put us on it. For all they know He did it so we could make him cheesecake.

According to 'them' we will spend eternity worshipping Him forever and ever, but why create this whole big planet and do the whole tree thing, and all the tests if all he wanted was a bunch of mindless worshippers? Why not just create mindless worshippers and be done with it?

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We are created in God's image. I know lots of mainstream Christians who say they believe this, and yet the churches they belong to do not teach it.

This whole 'God is only a Spirit' is so misleading, pale, and flimsy when in the light of the truth. God is male, God smells and sees and walks and talks. He is referred to as a Father, not a Mother, not a cloud "My CLOUD in heaven...?" nope Jesus called Him the FATHER. How much more clear can it get?

Where in the Bible does this claim of God not having a body come from? How can Jesus be on His right hand? How can He sit on a throne? How did he walk in the garden?

We have a body because He has a body. Jesus has a body.

Maiku, I understand why you ask that question, but I have to tell you...They don't know. They don't know what the plan is, they don't know there is a plan. They think we are here to please God, they might say, "He gave us bodies because he loves us" but then how could he love us before we had bodies if we don't exist before we get them?

and that's all they know. They don't know the meaning of life, they don't know why God created this world and put us on it. For all they know He did it so we could make him cheesecake.

According to 'them' we will spend eternity worshipping Him forever and ever, but why create this whole big planet and do the whole tree thing, and all the tests if all he wanted was a bunch of mindless worshippers? Why not just create mindless worshippers and be done with it?

Jayanna, I can understand where you are coming from. I can't speak for other religions as I don't know them as well as I know LDS and Catholicism. So, I'm going to cut-and-paste what I wrote on another thread to here that will answer your question from a Catholic perspective:

Why did God create me?

You will hear the following answers from many Christians which may touch a little bit on the "truth" (to Catholics) but not quite:

1.) God made man to glorify Him.

Well, although there's a little bit of truth in it, this cannot be the reason. Yes, we are to glorify God and it is His will that we do so, but that cannot be the reason why we were created because then that would make God either an egomaniac or an incomplete deity who can only be God if he has us to glorify and praise Him.

2.) God made man to test us.

Although there's truth to this also, this can't be the reason (coming from the Catholic background of “creatio ex nihilo” that we were nothing before we were born). If we were created solely to test us, then the purpose is to segregate man by passing/failing the test. This would mean that God cannot have loved us all completely because by virtue of testing, some of us will fail it.

3.) God created man to experience the world through man.

There is also a little bit of truth in this but it can't be the reason... because if that were the case, we are only God's appendages - and this would conflict with Catholic teaching that we are of value as unique individuals from God.

So, what is the correct Catholic answer?

We are created by God because of his Divine love; to share with us His joy and His perfection. Therefore, we are like seeds, he created us to give us the potential of making our souls great and learn of His love that we may share in His joy and so it pleases Him when we achieve that end and it saddens Him when we fail for free choice is part of perfecting of the souls. And once perfected, it is perfected without end.

Now, why create a body and not just a Spirit? LDS and Catholic jive on the answer to this - the body is essential in giving opposition to all things - something that the Spirit has to master. Through this "refining fire", the soul is perfected. So that God being Spirit versus God having a body doesn't have any bearing to why man was created with a body. Because, God as a Spirit does not make the creation of the body an impossibility.

The passage that states God made us in His image and likeness (imago Dei) is not a physical substance thing for Catholics (and I'll deign to say for all Trinitarians). It is an assertion that we are given bodies that exist in communion with God with God-like properties such as Intellect, Free Will, Self-Determination, Immortality, etc.

God, in Catholicism (and I think this is true for all Trinitarians), is of course neither male nor female. Father, therefore, is not an indication of His gender but an indication of His relationship/role/station. Biblical society is patriarchal - the Father is the head. Therefore, God is not addressed as Mother, because... Mother is not the head. He is not referred to as Cloud because Cloud doesn't have any relationship to man besides make everything shadowy and wet.

Edited by anatess
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I'll answer your question if you attempt to answer mine.

Since God has a body, and His ultimate desire for us is that we be more like Him in order to enjoy maximum happiness as He does, He has provided us with one of the tools to become more like Him, a body. While here on Earth, we are to receive this body, learn how to bridle the passions associated with it, and resurrect in it after we die. All this is done so that we may become more like Him, and that is eternal happiness

Matthew 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

Your turn.

God is Spirit. Perfection is not speaking to what you are made of.

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We are created in God's image. I know lots of mainstream Christians who say they believe this, and yet the churches they belong to do not teach it.

This whole 'God is only a Spirit' is so misleading, pale, and flimsy when in the light of the truth. God is male, God smells and sees and walks and talks. He is referred to as a Father, not a Mother, not a cloud "My CLOUD in heaven...?" nope Jesus called Him the FATHER. How much more clear can it get?

Where in the Bible does this claim of God not having a body come from? How can Jesus be on His right hand? How can He sit on a throne? How did he walk in the garden?

We have a body because He has a body. Jesus has a body.

Maiku, I understand why you ask that question, but I have to tell you...They don't know. They don't know what the plan is, they don't know there is a plan. They think we are here to please God, they might say, "He gave us bodies because he loves us" but then how could he love us before we had bodies if we don't exist before we get them?

and that's all they know. They don't know the meaning of life, they don't know why God created this world and put us on it. For all they know He did it so we could make him cheesecake.

According to 'them' we will spend eternity worshipping Him forever and ever, but why create this whole big planet and do the whole tree thing, and all the tests if all he wanted was a bunch of mindless worshippers? Why not just create mindless worshippers and be done with it?

To think that we are mindless creatures is showing a distinct lack of understanding who you are, how much you are loved, and the inherent worth you have. No religious person outside of Mormonism says or thinks things like this, but I have heard it and read it several times from different LDS members. The only other people I hear this from are atheists.

I was taught very clearly that I am made in the image and likeness of God, and have taught it myself to others in religious education settings at my parish.

"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

Not sure why LDS don't believe this.

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That's still not an answer to my question.

If God has no body, why did He give us one?

maiku, your question is based on a false premise, like asking, "when are you going to stop beating your wife?"...it is a question that can't be answered.

The only answer that can be given is God doesn't have a body.

God gave you a body because He LOVES you. Accept God's love.

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To think that we are mindless creatures is showing a distinct lack of understanding who you are, how much you are loved, and the inherent worth you have. No religious person outside of Mormonism says or thinks things like this, but I have heard it and read it several times from different LDS members. The only other people I hear this from are atheists.

I was taught very clearly that I am made in the image and likeness of God, and have taught it myself to others in religious education settings at my parish.

"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

Not sure why LDS don't believe this.

I have good answers for these questions but I'm still waiting for you to answer the original question, this is the fourth time I'll ask it.

If God has no body, why did he give us one?

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maiku, your question is based on a false premise, like asking, "when are you going to stop beating your wife?"...it is a question that can't be answered.

The only answer that can be given is God doesn't have a body.

God gave you a body because He LOVES you. Accept God's love.

We do accept God's love. God loves us so much that He wants us to become like Him, and live with Him for eternity.

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It is simplicity.

And, no doubt, C.S. Lewis would therefore reject it. :) I always thought his logic on rejecting simplicity in favor of complexity rather odd. The very opposite of Occam's razor. :)

maiku: You probably realize by now that mainstream Christianity not only cannot answer the question but will not. And, don't worry, you really haven't committed the complex question fallacy. Your question is quite legit. They are simply content to let God be an incomprehensible mystery.

LDS believe God is spirit but also believe he has a body. Just as we are both spirit and body. The further light and knowledge of the restoration is truly great!

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