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maiku

Why have we been given bodies?

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You really need to pay more attention to what is written instead of implying things in what is written that doesn't exist. I really don't know how else to explain it to you.

I don't understand how you could leap from God created the sky blue, not fuschia, to Catholics considered the idea that God created the sky fuschia and we just rejected that idea.

That's quite something.

If you follow the logical extrapolation that Connie presented, you will see that mono/poly had no bearing on the argument and therefore, a Catholic shouldn't have trouble following the train of thought and responding accordingly, if she was so inclined.

anatess, I am capable of following the conversation, and answering people's questions. That I don't answer in the same way as you, or agree with your answers, doesn't mean there is "quite something" going on. I don't need your moderation, as good intentioned as it may be.

Also, you've left the subject and have made me the subject. I'm not really a center of attention kind of person, not comfortable in the spotlight, but if you have something to ask, rather than stating I'm X or should be Y, I'll answer.

Edited by madeleine1

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hi, the soul is in the image and likeness of God, but the soul is not God.

God is Good, and all that is created by Him was created as Good. I don't know why God needs to possess what He has created in order for the something to be Good. It is Good because God is Good and God does not Create unGodly (or un-goodly) things.

Thank you for a very beautifully stated counter-argument and for not dealing in absurdities. I can accept the logic of your position even though i think there's a bit more to it than that.

Many regards.

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Thank you for a very beautifully stated counter-argument and for not dealing in absurdities. I can accept the logic of your position even though i think there's a bit more to it than that.

Many regards.

You're welcome.

Peace to you in this Christmas season.

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I had the impression maiku was asking why we are created with a body. I don't see where he was asking about being resurrected with a body.

So, you've lost me.

Madeleine... let me re-phrase so you can follow it better. Hopefully.

You said that LDS believe in Coke Zero... Spirit AND Body. I'm trying to explain to you that the LDS believe God's body is not a MORTAL body. It's a PERFECT body. So, when we say God is [a] Spirit - we refer to both the spiritual intelligence and the spiritual (or perfect) body together. We don't separate the two.

And in trying to help you understand that concept, I pointed to you that this is not alien to Catholic teaching because you do understand that Jesus Christ (One God in the Trinity) has a perfected body. It is exactly that kind of body that we believe is possessed by God the Father and the Son.

P.S. I said Maiku in that post. It's actually Madeleine... sorry. I edited the original posting.

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I am lazy, and didn't read the responses, so feel free to disguard what I say, but I think a couple reasons we have bodies are one, to learn self control. Many temptations are physical, from drugs to sex, we need to learn to control these. Two to learn self disciplin. (Okay self control and this pretty much are the same, but I am just saying that self control doesn't need to be learning to keep from temptations.) We need to disiplin ours selfs to work, and not be lazy. (I have a ways to go on this, as stated in the first sentence.) Three we have bodies to be able to reproduce. MOrtal bodies have the ablility to procreate. This is a comandment and a privlige. Haveing children gives them the oppertunity to experience life and gives us a great oppertunity to learn, grow and serve. Sounds to me like HEavenly Father is very wise to give us bodies. I am grateful for mine.

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Never mind. I'm getting whiplash.

That's the problem with being born and raised Catholic and converted LDS with English only a 3rd language. If I try to explain Catholic teachings to the LDS, I end up having the LDS and Catholics fight me. If I try to explain LDS teachings to the Catholics, I end up having the Catholics fight me.

I've been to Catholic Answers Forum and some Catholics there are vicious to LDS. I don't want non-LDS here in lds.net to ever feel the same way I do in CAF. So, I try to bridge the gap in understanding between Catholics and LDS as it's the 2 religions I have relative expertise on, to hopefully make them understand each other better.

So, Connie, all I wanted to say was to try not to make statements like "mainstream Christians can't answer because they don't have an answer" because that's not true. The Great Mystery is nothing more than that we - in our mortal state - do not know exactly what "substance" God is made out of. Everything else about God - who He is, His Divine nature, what His purposes are, why He gave us a body, etc. - is not a mystery.

And, Madeleine, all I wanted to do was try to get the LDS folks to understand where Catholics are coming from in a manner that an LDS can understand. Because, "God loves us", is not a good enough answer to the LDS folks - basically, that's not the issue. The issue is that Catholics believe God does not have a body while LDS believe God has one. That's the issue that needs to be addressed instead of just "God loves us" because that doesn't answer the question. LDS believe "God loves us" too and that love necessitates us having a body because God has one.

Obviously, I failed in my purpose. So... carry on. I'll watch in the sidelines with my bag of popcorn so as not to muddy the waters any more than I have already.

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Thanks changed and Jennerator for your responses but the question is directed toward non-LDS points of view.

Back to the question at hand. The only answer I've seen so far is "God loves us". I've addressed that "answer".

In previous posts I saw that if God created us ONLY in spirit form, we would be considered Gods. Is that what non-LDS believe? Do we need to have spirit AND body to be considered less?

I find much fault in this logic. After we die but before the resurrection (i.e. dead people who are awaiting the resurrection) we are only in spirit form, does that mean to you that we are temporarily gods?

Secondly, if God's spirit is different from ours, that would mean that creating us ONLY in spirit form would not make us gods as you earlier stated. This means that once again, the possession of a body is useless to us.

Do you see how this still does not answer the question in the OP?

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my point is this.

If God is happy without a body, and He desires our happiness, why would He give us a body if He is perfectly happy without one?

Your answer: because He loves us

My response to that: I agree He loves us, and because He loves us He wants us to be happy. How does giving us a body make us happy is He is perfectly happy without one Himself?

Do you see where your logic breaks down?

If you don't know, or if this is another "mystery" not yet explained, then I'm OK with that answer.

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I have gone to so many Christian denominations....I asked questions like this all over the place...they don't know why we have bodies

Why do we have a body, and why were we put on Earth, the same place where He put Satan?

A: Becuase He loves us....

Q: and we don't exist until we have a body...so how did He love me before I existed?

A: We are not supposed to question God, and if we are good and humble we will recite what we have been told and not ask any more questions...and if we are bad we go to hell.

You know that rock that Peter had, that revelation? The power to recieve truth directly from God through the Holy Spirit? Well, a lot of people don't have that, they are just using their best guess. So when they hear the truth from someone who does have that revelation they assume that person is also just going on their best guess. Until they get that rock, that revelation directly from HF, there is nothing you can do or say that they will see or hear.

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my point is this.

If God is happy without a body, and He desires our happiness, why would He give us a body if He is perfectly happy without one?

Your answer: because He loves us

My response to that: I agree He loves us, and because He loves us He wants us to be happy. How does giving us a body make us happy is He is perfectly happy without one Himself?

Do you see where your logic breaks down?

If you don't know, or if this is another "mystery" not yet explained, then I'm OK with that answer.

God's love is a sufficient enough reason for me. I need nothing more in this life to be happy than to know that I am known by God, loved by God, valued by God. For a person like myself that did not know this for most of my life, I find it the most amazing thing ever. I know God loves me, at the depths of my soul, and nothing makes me happier than this. The world can be a painful storm, swirling around me, and my soul know among it all, I am loved.So, I can't say I understand why God's love is not a sufficient answer to your question.

What you continue to ask doesn't make any sense from a Catholic POV. God made us as we are, knowing our every need and with a desire for our happiness. Why or how you tie this to God having a body, or not, is beyond me. Why you think it is logical that God requires a body in order for you to be happy is also beyond me. I'll leave it at that,as it is obvious, we are going nowhere.

Edited by madeleine1

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Madeleine... let me re-phrase so you can follow it better. Hopefully.

You said that LDS believe in Coke Zero... Spirit AND Body. I'm trying to explain to you that the LDS believe God's body is not a MORTAL body. It's a PERFECT body. So, when we say God is [a] Spirit - we refer to both the spiritual intelligence and the spiritual (or perfect) body together. We don't separate the two.

And in trying to help you understand that concept, I pointed to you that this is not alien to Catholic teaching because you do understand that Jesus Christ (One God in the Trinity) has a perfected body. It is exactly that kind of body that we believe is possessed by God the Father and the Son.

P.S. I said Maiku in that post. It's actually Madeleine... sorry. I edited the original posting.

Yes, I understand this, but it is not what I understood maiku to be asking.

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.

And, Madeleine, all I wanted to do was try to get the LDS folks to understand where Catholics are coming from in a manner that an LDS can understand. Because, "God loves us", is not a good enough answer to the LDS folks - basically, that's not the issue. The issue is that Catholics believe God does not have a body while LDS believe God has one. That's the issue that needs to be addressed instead of just "God loves us" because that doesn't answer the question. LDS believe "God loves us" too and that love necessitates us having a body because God has one.

Obviously, I failed in my purpose. So... carry on. I'll watch in the sidelines with my bag of popcorn so as not to muddy the waters any more than I have already.

I didn't think you were fighting, and explained Catholic teaching well. It is a difficult task explaining to very different beliefs, and trying to tie the similarities together. With Mormonism and Catholicsm, there are a lot of surface similarities, but once you dive in deeper, the similarities are very few.

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Maiku:

I think it may help you understand a bit better to contemplate the difference in meaning when LDS say "God loves us" and when mainstream Christians say "God loves us."

When mainstream Christians say "God loves us," they mean that God loves us as a gardener loves his flowers. They are fundamentally different. The gardener knows the flowers will never grow to become a gardener, but they can grow to become the best flowers that they can be. God cares for and loves us as a gardener cares for and loves his flowers, knowing they will never become just like He is. He cares for them and loves them so they can be happy and productive flowers and not wish to be more than what they are.

When LDS say "God loves us," they mean that God loves us as a father loves his child. They are fundamentally the same. The child will grow to become an adult, and the father wants his child to grow up to become a good and happy and productive adult and teaches him how to do that. God cares for and loves us as a father cares for and loves his child, knowing they will grow to become like Him.

Hope that helps a bit. This is how i understand it. If i'm wrong, i'm sure there will be many here to correct me and tell me how deluded and disingenuous i am.

Edited by Connie

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Anatess: It's okay. I think you're just 10 steps ahead of the rest of us and trying to rush us on to where you are. And we're hanging way back here saying "wait, we haven't caught up yet!"

I think maybe i understand better now just how absurd this question is to the non-LDS folks. Quite like the flower asking the gardener why he doesn't look like it.

"Because He loves us" is quite a sufficient answer if we are a completely different species than God, and all one would need to know in that case would be that God made us and takes care of us because of His great love for His creations. But it is an incomplete and insufficient answer if we are the same species.

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I may be talking complete nonsense here, but I'll say it anyway and it can be ignored if it's incorrect.

God created man as a complete man - body, soul, and spirit. Remove any of these components and you're not really dealing with a man anymore. You'll just have a fraction or a portion of a man. This is the explanation I would expect from those that believe in a literal resurrection.

Why didn't God create man without a body? That would not be man. In fact, he did create other orders of creations. He created angels (I'm assuming here that the popular belief is that angels don't have bodies).

Why didn't God create lions as herbivores? Well, that wouldn't really be a Lion, would it? It might still be a perfectly valid creation, but Lion it would not be.

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Maiku:

I think it may help you understand a bit better to contemplate the difference in meaning when LDS say "God loves us" and when mainstream Christians say "God loves us."

When mainstream Christians say "God loves us," they mean that God loves us as a gardener loves his flowers. They are fundamentally different. The gardener knows the flowers will never grow to become a gardener, but they can grow to become the best flowers that they can be. God cares for and loves us as a gardener cares for and loves his flowers, knowing they will never become just like He is. He cares for them and loves them so they can be happy and productive flowers and not wish to be more than what they are.

Well, you do have a good imagination. :)

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But, Connie, you remind me of St. Therese Lisieux, who is called the Little Flower. In her autobiography, she wrote:

"As the sun shines on both the tall cedars and on the floweret, so the Divine Sun illumines every soul, great and small, and all correspond to His care."

A Father's Love, I hope you can see clearly in the words of our Little Flower.

Look at the birds in the sky; they do not sow or reap, they gather nothing into barns, yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are not you more important than they? Can any of you by worrying add a single moment to your life-span? Why are you anxious about clothes? Learn from the way the wild flowers grow. They do not work or spin. But I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was clothed like one of them.

Edited by madeleine1

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I was curious as to what others think about this. LDS believe that one of the principal reasons we are here on earth is to receive a body. This is mainly because we believe that God has a body and His plan of Happiness for us if for us to become more like Him, ever increasing in happiness and eternal joy as we do so.

For others however that believe that God has no body, my question is, why then did He give us bodies?

I have skimmed over most of this thread, so I'm going to be daring and add my 2 cents.

maiku, you believe that God has a body and therefore believe that the image we are made in is identical to God's image, that with a literal body.

Traditional Christianity of course differs in belief because traditionalists believe that God is spirit, God is love, God is existence. God exists as He is because he is God. For whatever reason, probably due to Love, God decided to create. He created the universe, the stars, the earth, the critters and mankind. For whatever reason, he used the elements that we are made of to make us. Scientists say mankind is made from star dust.

Since God is existence himself, it was not necessary to create us as demi-gods (smaller spirits) because that is what God is and there is only one God and there will only be one God. God created mankind to be his creation, therefore we are not some type of demi-god but are his creation made with a corporeal body from star dust. But because we are made in his image (we love, we reason, we worship, we choose) we are his special creation. And one day we will have glorified bodies that will meet and live with God (who is spirit) forever.

M.

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I see everyone's view and I smile...i find it cute because we all are running the race and it this is good. According to the Bible GOD (Heavenly Father is Spirit), and Jesus Christ is the visible image of the invisible GOD (perfect). The Father and I are one..said the Lord. One heart, One mind, One purpose that we too get to know our Heavenly Father by and through the power of the Holy Ghost...He knew where he came from and where he was going (Jesus our Lord). He came to show us the way back to the Father, because we were with the Father just like he was with the Father.

Being christ like means so much more than the naked eye can tell that's why we must be born of water and spirit. Christ clearly pointed out to the pharasees, ye are gods, but they accussed him of blasphamy... However he himself never exalted himself as being the Father or taking the place of our Heavenly Father he alwasy humbly, modestly and meekly said spke only what he knew in the best way to make us understand...He clearly said to Thomas my God is your God, so he himself admits to Hierarchy...So now he holds a Glorified body and is now sitting on the right hand of Heavenly Father in the heavenly realms...we can never take the place of our Lord Jesus Christ, but he clearly said we can be just like him..with GOD all things are possible, greater is the Spirit in us, and greater things we will do in his name...we are continuously being molded/polished/perfected...sure we have a termporal body with it's seasons but the spirit is eteranal. Anyway, I speak only what I've lived and experinced according to the Spirit (what the Spirit has revealed to me in my walk/journey).

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I was Catholic as a child ( first intoduction to Christianity). Then questions of religion and traditions and the Pope came accross my life, after seeking and knocking one door did open I became a born again Christian and accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior. I began a new life in him and I no longer saw him as an image or a statue much less resting on a cross. Kingly and loveingly God's grace was upon me, as I got to know him an inward transformation began to take place. In obediance and reverance for the LORD, I became a member of the LDS Church.

However I do find it hard to identify with other Christians because I'm not Catholic and My Faith is not set on the Prophet Joseph Smith or his vision or his life experience or the life of anyone else's other than my own based on the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I can not say that being an LDS member has made me wiser, kinder or spiritual or anyof that sort.

I can and will say this I can not give anyone else the Glory of my life other than the LORD, through his Son. I am a witness (my own witness) of the Lord's account in my life. He tully is the truth the way and the life and I fully believe that no one can get to know the Father if not through His Son (Jesus Christ). Thank you for sharing...

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According to the responses I've read so far, am I to understand that man without a body is a god?

I've seen maureen and madeline post this.

BTW, happy new year

No, I didn't post that and it is not belief or doctrine. What you just wrote is a categorical error. God is God, man is not, no matter what pieces you break us into.

We are made in the image and likeness of God. We are not God.

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According to the responses I've read so far, am I to understand that man without a body is a god?

I've seen maureen and madeline post this.

BTW, happy new year

Originally Posted by maiku

This is all great but why didn't he just create us with a spirit w/o a body, like He is?

We could still be human spirits, He didn't have to give us a body to show He loves us.

Maiku, what you're trying to ask here is - Why didn't God just create another God?

He didn't. He created Man. Man - by virtue of his manly substance - has a body. Creating another God is not what God thought as the best way to share His love just like creating a spiritual chicken, or a spiritual tree, or a spiritual air, is not what God thought as the best way to share His love.

Remember: God and Man in Christianity outside of LDS are two very different substances.

Actually maiku, it was anatess and myself who made this comparison.

Happy New Year to you too!

M.

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