sons of god (power to become)?


Justice
 Share

Recommended Posts

Time for part 2 of this discussion. I've had it mostly typed up and waiting for the other thread to die down, or until someone brought up this scripture. I'm surprised someone didn't bring up this scripture earlier in the other thread, and I'm also surprised it was a LDS that brought it up, not someone who believes in the Trinity.

Untli now, I have been adamant about son = offspring. But, now I must defend myself against the words of the Bible that claim there are other ways to understand "son."

John 1:12 “power to become”

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

This scripture, if taken literally, means that we are not offspring “sons” of God before we “receive” or “believe” on his name. So, let's take a look at it and hear both both side's responses.

I realize we can discuss what it means to receive him, believe on his name, or even what it means to be a son of god, but what I want to focus on is what "power to become" means.

Here is where I have to admit that the Bible is in need of interpretation. In light of this verse it does not have to mean that we are not literal offspring, even though it seems to be saying that very thing. It also seems to be saying we were not alive as spirits before being born here. This verse could be used as a valid argument to refute these two ideas LDS claims. But, this verse is not conclusive proof. We're going to have to mutually admit that neither side will be able to prove their interpretation with one verse before we can talk about "power to become."

So, let's admit it and focus on "power to become," and hope the discussion about the other parts of the verse are kept to a minimum, or on an only as needed basis.

Christ told His followers that if they had faith as a grain of mustard seed they could speak to otherwise inanimate objects and they would obey. He is quoted in 2 different books, I will add them both.

Luke 17:6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

Matthew 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Here's my question. By these verses are we to believe that God is literally giving men this power, or is this something that God will perform for men because they speak the words?

To clearly illustrate my question I'd like to referenfce Peter walking on water. Peter said (paraphrasing) if it be you, Lord, bid me come unto you. Christ responded that he should come. Peter stepped onto the water and began to walk. After a short while, he began to sink when his faith doubted.

Now, did Peter walk on water or did Christ do it for him?

If you believe it was Peter, then we can move on to the discussion about what "power to become" means.

If you believe it was Christ doing it for him and that God really never gives us any power like this, we first need to discuss why, if it was Christ, Peter began to sink because of his own lack of faith.

So, which do we talk about first?

Is God literally giving us power to do, or is He acting with His power through us and isn't really giving us any real power?

Let me quote again:

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Time for part 2 of this discussion. I've had it mostly typed up and waiting for the other thread to die down, or until someone brought up this scripture. I'm surprised someone didn't bring up this scripture earlier in the other thread, and I'm also surprised it was a LDS that brought it up, not someone who believes in the Trinity.

Untli now, I have been adamant about son = offspring. But, now I must defend myself against the words of the Bible that claim there are other ways to understand "son."

John 1:12 “power to become”

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

This scripture, if taken literally, means that we are not offspring “sons” of God before we “receive” or “believe” on his name. So, let's take a look at it and hear both both side's responses.

I realize we can discuss what it means to receive him, believe on his name, or even what it means to be a son of god, but what I want to focus on is what "power to become" means.

Here is where I have to admit that the Bible is in need of interpretation. In light of this verse it does not have to mean that we are not literal offspring, even though it seems to be saying that very thing. It also seems to be saying we were not alive as spirits before being born here. This verse could be used as a valid argument to refute these two ideas LDS claims. But, this verse is not conclusive proof. We're going to have to mutually admit that neither side will be able to prove their interpretation with one verse before we can talk about "power to become."

So, let's admit it and focus on "power to become," and hope the discussion about the other parts of the verse are kept to a minimum, or on an only as needed basis.

Christ told His followers that if they had faith as a grain of mustard seed they could speak to otherwise inanimate objects and they would obey. He is quoted in 2 different books, I will add them both.

Luke 17:6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

Matthew 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Here's my question. By these verses are we to believe that God is literally giving men this power, or is this something that God will perform for men because they speak the words?

The scriptures have a repeating theme--God gives His grace to those who walk in His light:

1 John1:7--"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

IOW--we are saved by grace--and this grace goes to those who obey Christ.

We are not saved by works(obedience to Christ)--but it is the basis for which God extends His grace unto mankind:

Hebrews5:9--"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

BTW--why does this verse indicate that we are not the literal offspring of God? The LDS believe they are the literal offspring, not of the physical, but offspring according to the spirit, becoming the sons of God according to faith occurs at a later time.

Hebrews12:9--"Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?"

For me, making a statement in that likeness, ie--that we are not the literal offspring of God if we become the sons of God-- is the same as saying that becoming the sons of God denies that we have earthly fathers also, seeing that is an event preceding the adoption unto sons of God also. If we are sons of God--how can we be the sons of mankind also?

We are literal offspring according to the spirit--not the combination of the flesh and spirit--which is another state of progression outside of the presence of the Father--and requires the development of a thing called faith--the seemingly last mountain to climb. That is where we become sons of God, in accordance with life eternal, and the physical being.

1) Intelligence into spirit

2) Spirit in mortal flesh

3) Mortal flesh into immortal, resurrected bodies

4) Exalted bodies

Edited by dberrie2000
Link to comment
Share on other sites

dberrie, you will find a lot of us here try to look at the words of the Bible literally, and open our minds to all possible interpretations. It doesn't have to change our views, but it might if we seek truth. It also allows us to understand what others believe and have meaningful conversations with those of other faiths. I do not think they are stupid or ignorant because they believe differently than I do. They have a belief for a reason, and I am always curious to hear their story and understand how they arrived at a particular belief.

I do not believe that the verse in question is saying we are not offspring of God, but I can certainly see, by it's wording, where those of other faiths can take it to mean that we're not.

Your offering of comparing it to having heavenly and earthly fathers is the kind of input I was looking for. But, I expect others to have other ideas that might refute your idea as well. I will not be offended by another's beliefs; I will not be offended if another person does not believe the way I believe.

What I hope is to engage in meaningful topics where we can learn from each other... regardless of our individual beliefs.

I've noticed in other threads you seem to have a hard time engaging those of other faiths, and seeing (really seeing) that anyone can possibly have a different interpretation other than yours. Your interpretation may be right, but I assure you, it's not the only one. :)

Welcome to the conversation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Now, to address your question.

BTW--why does this verse indicate that we are not the literal offspring of God?

Because it says we are given "power to become" sons of God.

If we are already sons of God, why would we need to be given power to become what we already are?

I understand the LDS view, and I'm not telling you I don't believe it. I'm answering your question as to how it can mean what others believe it to mean.

But, again, I'd like to focus on what "power to become" means. We've spent enough time discussing whether we are or not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

dberrie, you will find a lot of us here try to look at the words of the Bible literally, and open our minds to all possible interpretations. It doesn't have to change our views, but it might if we seek truth. It also allows us to understand what others believe and have meaningful conversations with those of other faiths. I do not think they are stupid or ignorant because they believe differently than I do. They have a belief for a reason, and I am always curious to hear their story and understand how they arrived at a particular belief.

I do not believe that the verse in question is saying we are not offspring of God, but I can certainly see, by it's wording, where those of other faiths can take it to mean that we're not.

Your offering of comparing it to having heavenly and earthly fathers is the kind of input I was looking for. But, I expect others to have other ideas that might refute your idea as well. I will not be offended by another's beliefs; I will not be offended if another person does not believe the way I believe.

What I hope is to engage in meaningful topics where we can learn from each other... regardless of our individual beliefs.

I've noticed in other threads you seem to have a hard time engaging those of other faiths, and seeing (really seeing) that anyone can possibly have a different interpretation other than yours. Your interpretation may be right, but I assure you, it's not the only one. :)

Welcome to the conversation.

I have been part of forums for 12 years now--and I really have not had any difficulty engaging others in conversation--especially when the scriptures are used to engage a conversation.

Why would my opinion induce any more difficulty in engagement that yours or others? It may be a different style--but is there just one style that is proper? Why does taking a particular stance draw the conclusion that there is only one interpretation? You are aware that the LDS do have particular doctrines that they believe are true? Why does that exclude all others from having a point? They are free to post their points also.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why would my opinion induce any more difficulty in engagement that yours or others? It may be a different style--but is there just one style that is proper? Why does taking a particular stance draw the conclusion that there is only one interpretation? You are aware that the LDS do have particular doctrines that they believe are true? Why does that exclude all others from having a point? They are free to post their points also.

Fourth Bruce: In addition, as he's going to be teaching politics, I've told him he's welcome to teach any of the great socialist thinkers, provided he makes it clear that they were wrong.

(They all stand up.)

All: Australia, Australia, Australia, Australia, we love you. Amen!

(They sit down.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To address the OP...Peter walked on water, however briefly, because of his faith in Jesus. It was he, throughChrist, who did the water walking. The power is Christ's--but it is Christ in us. To bolster this view, Jesus said we would do everything he did and more. He said that when the Holy Spirit comes we would receive power to be his witnesses. So, it is the Spirit of Christ in us, not his corporeal presence, that enables us to exercise miraculous power.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

BTW--why does this verse indicate that we are not the literal offspring of God?

--Because it says we are given "power to become" sons of God.

If we are already sons of God, why would we need to be given power to become what we already are?

The "literal offspring' refers to our spirits, whom are the offspring of God the Father--the "sons of God" refer to our existence here and now, and into the future--as it relates to exaltation--and to the physical, resurrected being.

That is the reason we have to be adopted--because Jesus Christ is neither the literal Father of our spirits or our bodies.

Edited by dberrie2000
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Define "Spirit of Christ in us" for me, please.

I think a similar phrase about Christ dwelling in us caused a discussion about it's exact meaning in thread not all that long ago.

/goes digging around in the search engine.

Here we go: http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/43804-what-do-these-scriptures-mean.html

Sometimes it surprises me how much meaning we can infuse into a small phrase. Don't mind me, I'm musing.

Edited by Dravin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share