Woman arrested for offering to check her concealed firearm.

[MarginOfError]

Tourist tried to check in gun at WTC site - US news - msnbc.com

The gist is, the woman has a concealed carry permit in Tennessee. She went on vacation to New York City, and was carrying her firearm with her in the city. When she visited the memorial at the Towers, she noticed a sign saying, "No guns allowed." She then approached a police officer to ask where she could check her weapon. The officers arrested her, since she was illegally carrying a weapon in New York City.

Who should we bash more?

[Guest]

I don't even know. I feel bad for her, though.

[Jenamarie]

Well, I know "ignorance of the law" isn't an excuse, but I hope they don't give her a heavy-handed punishment, since she *did* try to do the right thing. (and I imagine now she'll always check the concealed carry laws of the areas she's planning to visit!)

[Suzie]

A tourist from Tennessee reportedly thought she could check her loaded gun at New York City's Sept. 11 memorial.

It almost sounds like an April Fool's day joke.

[NeuroTypical]

Of course the woman was in the wrong. You gotta figure out what the laws are of where you're going.

I have a concealed carry permit. I'm one google search away from knowing which states accept my Colorado permit and which don't. They are called "reciprocity" laws. I've traveled with my firearm and carried in three different states because it's legal to do so. Just got back from California - left the gun home for that trip - CA doesn't recognize my permit, nor my right to bear arms.

Fun experiences checking firearms when flying:

Denver: I declare a firearm, they rush us out of the long line to a special place where we're ushered through the process by at least three people. They take my suitcase and stick it in a machine about the size of a semi truck trailer. The thing could probably not only see the gun, but I wouldn't be surprised if it could read my fingerprints on it and take a DNA sample.

Memphis: I declare a firearm, they ask me to open the locked case and show them. Then they ask if they can fire a few rounds into the ceiling to check the sights.

LM

(OK, I made that last part up. But they really did want to see it.)

Edited December 29, 2011 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[RescueMom]

Having a CCW permit myself...I was taught, and it was part of my training and knowledge that every EVERY state has different laws, and before I carry concealed or unconcealed it is MY responsibility to know law. period.

She is the reason our gun laws are in danger, she is an irresponsible gun owner.

When I travel to see my son, I know that in Oklahoma I have to have my gun un-concealed. However, when I am in Arizona I can carry concealed. I would never go into a state with my weapon concealed not knowing the state laws, ever. That is just stupidity in action.

[Just_A_Guy]

It's amazing how common this kind of thing can be.

[bytebear]

If there is a law that you cannot carry a gun in NY, why was there a sign that said you could not have guns at the memorial? What is the purpose of the sign?

[NeuroTypical]

Heh - welcome to the world of dumbness bytebear.

Folks who don't spend much time aquainting themselves with reality of violence, feel safer when they see a sign that says "no guns". Public officials want people to feel safe. Hence, sign.

There's really nothing more to it than that.

Here in CO, I see the best of the both worlds. There are big signs saying "Absolutely no open carry - don't even think about it - we don't tolerate that sort of thing here! Bad! No!"

(Translation, unthinking folk feel safe, I'm fine to carry concealed.)

Another big place that experienced a shooting, has a big bold loudly stated two page weapons policy, with sections providing definitions, general statements of policy, consequences for students or nonstudents, how to get permission for special events, and what to do should you encounter one. Hidden in the middle of paragraph IV (b), is one little line that says it's ok for me to carry too. In language that's not exactly plain english.

The wordy policy is to help people feel safe. The little line is for me to actually be safe.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[Dravin]

If there is a law that you cannot carry a gun in NY, why was there a sign that said you could not have guns at the memorial? What is the purpose of the sign?

To my knowledge New York State does issue CCW permits (on a may issue basis), but they don't accept any other state's permits.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Dravin

[RipplecutBuddha]

If there is a law that you cannot carry a gun in NY, why was there a sign that said you could not have guns at the memorial? What is the purpose of the sign?

Maybe to see how many other people do exactly what this woman did. After all, they did get a chunk of change from the event...

[MarginOfError]

My initial response was that, yes, she should have checked the laws before visiting, but I also thought the law came down pretty hard.

As I think about it more, I'm not sure what else I'd want the police officers to do. They were absolutely right to take her to the station, and for their own safety they need to put some kind of restraint on her. And once they take her to the station, my understanding is that they have to put her under arrest. I guess I just hope that they were able to contact a judge quickly who was able to set bail very low so they could work out an arrangement to transport her weapon back home without filing harsh charges. But I think if the law is going to allow from leniency in this case, it does have to come from the judge and not from the police.

Thanks for helping me temper my reaction.

[Guest gopecon]

MOE is right, given the laws that are currently in place. I do feel badly for the woman. If she kept her mouth shut (assuming there are no metal detectors to pass through), then she would have had no problem. This is a good illustration of the silliness in having a patchwork of gun laws in each state. If one is licensed to drive in Texas, one does not need to see if that drivers license is valid in other states. When a concealed carry license is issued, it would make sense that that license would be good in other states - especially if they also issue permits. I believe there are some efforts in Congress to make it a reality that permit issuing states must recognize the permits from residents of other states. The very few states (I think it is only 2 or 3) that do not allow carrying would not be affected.

[NeuroTypical]

They made some changes in January 2009, changing a 25-yr old federal rule against loaded guns in national parks. Permit holders in states that allow concealed carry, can now carry in national parks and wildlife refuges. Source

[RescueMom]

MOE is right, given the laws that are currently in place. I do feel badly for the woman. If she kept her mouth shut (assuming there are no metal detectors to pass through), then she would have had no problem. This is a good illustration of the silliness in having a patchwork of gun laws in each state. If one is licensed to drive in Texas, one does not need to see if that drivers license is valid in other states. When a concealed carry license is issued, it would make sense that that license would be good in other states - especially if they also issue permits. I believe there are some efforts in Congress to make it a reality that permit issuing states must recognize the permits from residents of other states. The very few states (I think it is only 2 or 3) that do not allow carrying would not be affected.

I understand your position gopecon, but I would rather the States keep their rights instead of having the Feds control things. But I am a big states rights fan.

[Guest gopecon]

I generally like to allow the states to figure stuff out too, but when we are talking about a right guaranteed by the 2nd Amendment, you shouldn't have to wonder if you will be in trouble just for crossing into the wrong state. Each state can have their reasonable rules for getting a CCW permit, but once one has a permit they should be able to use it anywhere permits are issued while complying with local laws (conceal, don't conceal, etc.).

[HoosierGuy]

No offense but that World Trade Memorial is a joke. It looks like a sewer and it looks like that rock in Saudi Arabia they all walk around, nice a and square and black. What a disgrace. Who built that thing, terrorists from the middle east? It's a disgrace. America can't even build a decent monument anymore to the innocent women, children and men that died on 9/11. Sad.

[Guest]

No offense but that World Trade Memorial is a joke. It looks like a sewer and it looks like that rock in Saudi Arabia they all walk around, nice a and square and black. What a disgrace. Who built that thing, terrorists from the middle east? It's a disgrace. America can't even build a decent monument anymore to the innocent women, children and men that died on 9/11. Sad.

I disagree.

It's an awesome memorial. It's the perfect mix of solemnity (the original site of the towers kept "empty") and hope with the soon-to-be soaring Freedom Tower. It's quite a magnificent feeling to be in the middle of NYC with all the hustle and bustle and people and cars and then you walk into the memorial and all you hear is the water. It really gives you that solemn, reflective mood. I couldn't think of a better way to "remember" the tragedy but not wallow in negativity. I'm glad they didn't rebuild the towers right over the bodies of the dead. I'm looking forward to the completion of all the new towers to complete the "effect".

But then, of course, if you're looking for a sewer, it will look like a sewer.

Edited December 30, 2011 by anatess

[nbblood]

If there is a law that you cannot carry a gun in NY, why was there a sign that said you could not have guns at the memorial? What is the purpose of the sign?

The law in New York is that you must register your handguns, not that you cannot carry a gun. Additionally, if you are carrying a concealed weapon, you must also have a concealed carry permit.

Therefore, a person, with the appropriate registration and permits, may carry a concealed gun in New York. BUT, establishments may forbid guns on their premises at their discretion, thereby pre-empting the concealed carry permit. BUT, they MUST post a sign that clearly indicates that guns are not allowed on the premises. In that case, concealed carry permit or not, a person may not legally carry their weapon in that establishment. Any concealed carry permit holder should know all this.

In this particular case, had the woman had her firearms legally registered in New York and held a New York concealed carry permit, she would not have been in violation and should not have been arrested. However, she apparently was not aware that handguns must be registered in New York to be transported or possessed within the state. Hence, she was indeed in violation of the law.

She simply failed to do her homework and found herself on the wrong side of the law. Yes, she tried to do what was the right thing, but the problem was she was already wrong. Unfortunately this violation will likely lead to the repeal of her concealed carry permit and prevent her from ever getting one again. However I hope the judge realizes that this was apparently an honest mistake and is lenient on her. After all, she was trying to do what she thought was the right thing.

The lesson here is that a concealed carry permit is not all-encompassing, regardless of reciprocation laws. There is inherent responsibility in knowing the applicable laws for wherever one plans to carry any firearm or other weapon. If google doesn't help, call a local law enforcement officer, they will likely know the answers. Don't ever assume that a concealed carry permit allows you to carry a concealed weapon anywhere!

[Traveler]

Here is some more food for thought - according to the constitution we have the right to carry in any state. So my question is - why carry concealed? I would think if one is carrying for protection that if it was visible and not concealed it would provide even more protection.

The Traveler

[NeuroTypical]

Unfortunately this violation will likely lead to the repeal of her concealed carry permit and prevent her from ever getting one again. However I hope the judge realizes that this was apparently an honest mistake and is lenient on her.

I don't know that a NY judge has the authority to revoke a permit issued by another state...

If google doesn't help, call a local law enforcement officer, they will likely know the answers.

It depends on the character and disposition of the agency and individual officer. Not all law enforcement knows their own local carry laws, much less what their state accepts from other states. Further, not all law enforcement agrees even if they do know. There is no shortage of bad stories of legally permitted run-ins with law enforcement. Overturned arrests, excessive force, etc. My local cops are very cc friendly - the chief ran for county sherriff recently on the platform of removing the permit requirement. But 60 miles to the north, somone pulled over by Denver cops had to sue to have their legally permitted carry firearm returned.

Here is some more food for thought - according to the constitution we have the right to carry in any state. So my question is - why carry concealed? I would think if one is carrying for protection that if it was visible and not concealed it would provide even more protection.

There is always heated and emotional debate in the carrying community on the subject. In my biased opinion, most open carry advocates I talk to seem to have the emotional maturity of a teenager demanding their rights to have a tattoo. Their reasoning tends to focus on making a statement about freedom and liberty first, and protection second. Edited January 8, 2012 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[Traveler]

...

There is always heated and emotional debate in the carrying community on the subject. In my biased opinion, most open carry advocates I talk to seem to have the emotional maturity of a teenager demanding their rights to have a tattoo. Their reasoning tends to focus on making a statement about freedom and liberty first, and protection second.

A short story. I grew up in a hunting family. 90% of our meat we either raised and slaughtered ourselves or hunted and field dressed. In Provo, in my young years, for animal control they offered a bounty of 10 cents for a cat and 25 cents for a dog. Once or twice a week I would hunt cats (bow and arrow) and make about $3 a night. When I joined the army they wanted me badly to train as a sniper. I was not keen about combat.

The day came when I was fired upon. It was not enemy fire. I identified my position but was still fired upon and some of the fire was coming very close. I determined that I must do something - so I fired back and deliberately missed - but not by much - sort of. I have not fired a weapon since - I have lost all desire.

I have close friends and family that carry. For the most part they know what they are doing but I find that many people that carry create more danger than they create safety for anybody.

Few realize that since and including the Civil war most combat casualties were from friendly fire. Lucky for most of us - bad guys are usually unlikely to be very disciplined with firearms - but if you ever come up against someone that knows what they are doing - you are most likely to be killed if you think to defend yourself. Most people that carry do not believe me but I promise you - if you are alone and up against 3 or more that know what they are doing - your chances are really bad. If you are not willing to fire first there may not be a point in firing at all. If you do fire first and you are not 100% sure of your target you may sadly take out an unintended target.

I have thought of applying for a carry permit on the chance that someone casing my home would think to find a more simple target. But I have learned that seldom if never do the brilliant criminals casing a target consider checking gun permits. I have also discovered that few if any that carry have ever killed anyone - a few I have known have displayed their weapon and scared off bad guys. I have yet to meat anyone that carries (other than professionals - police etc) that have fired a weapon in self defense that glad they did and would do it again.

The Traveler

[Guest]

I have yet to meat anyone that carries (other than professionals - police etc) that have fired a weapon in self defense that glad they did and would do it again.

The Traveler

My father-in-law. He's a retired Navy. No, he didn't kill anybody. But, he saved lives that day.

[Colirio]

Few realize that since and including the Civil war most combat casualties were from friendly fire.

While I am in agreement that a good portion of well-meaning concealed weapons carriers are more of a danger than a safety for those around them, I don't agree with this particular statement.

This CBS NEWS ARTICLE from a couple years ago, along with several others from a quick internet search, state the following:

The rate of friendly fire deaths for all U.S. troops in World War II was 12-14 percent; Vietnam, 10-14 percent; Grenada, 13 percent; and Panama, 6 percent.

As for the news story, her home state will most likely revoke her permit due to whatever penalty she receives from New York going on her record. While this is certainly unfortunate for her, she should have:

1. Learned the laws of the state she was traveling to. This is rule number 1 for most who have the permit isn't it? Learning where you can and cannot carry legally?

2. Resolved the issue herself by taking her weapon back to her hotel room, checking it in a secure location nearby that might have lock boxes (if not, see first option), or simply opting not to disarm herself by entering an area that requires it. Talking to ANYONE, even a law enforcement authority (ESPECIALLY a law enforcement authority! ), about your weapon is a no-no unless specifically approached and questioned.

Carrying a weapon is like the Spirit, never leave home without it, never enter a place that requires you to leave it behind, and and make sure everyone you come in contact with feels it.

(Ok, maybe that last part only applies to the Spirit.....)

Edited January 10, 2012 by Colirio

[NeuroTypical]

Great post, Traveler. If you ever tire of the screen name Traveler, I suggest Atticus. :)

I have yet to meet anyone that carries (other than professionals - police etc) that have fired a weapon in self defense that glad they did and would do it again.

Before I got my firearm and permit, I spent about a year researching the issue, reading people's stories, etc. There were umpteen stories of people who had likely stopped or avoided a crime by merely brandishing a concealed weapon. But to your point, when people fired their weapon and someone was injured, most stories tell of a massive impact to the person. Phrases like "I changed that day" and "I'm no longer the same person" rule the day. From the stories I've seen, you shoot someone in self defense, you tend to come out the other side a more somber, less happy person. That, along with the high chances of tens of thousand dollars of legal bills and a possibly multiyear legal battle, really struck home for me as I considered carrying.

The reason I decided to carry, is that in most of these stories, there is also the notion of "I may not be the same person, but I still get to be alive and [raise my kids, enjoy my marriage, etc.]. I have found few people who say "I'm glad I did it", but I have found several who say "I would do it again".

At the end of the day, my wife and I helped put a felon behind bars, and he probably gets out this year. He is not happy with us. We live far away from him, to lessen the odds of him coming after us. We have also got word out that we will defend ourselves, hoping that will deter him. Further, we practice situational awareness and physical training that could be characterized as "99 ways to run the heck the other way, one way to stand and fight" - hoping that if he comes looking for us, we can avoid or evade him.

Deter, avoid, evade. That's what we're hoping for, in the order we're hoping to see them work. But if none of that works, I wanna be there the next day to still be in my family's life. I want them there the next day to be my wife and kids. So I'll do what I have to do, even though it might make me a less happy person.

I identified my position but was still fired upon and some of the fire was coming very close. I determined that I must do something - so I fired back and deliberately missed - but not by much - sort of. I have not fired a weapon since - I have lost all desire.

You don't tell us - if you had it to do over, would you still take action to preserve your life? Edited January 10, 2012 by Loudmouth_Mormon