Tattoos and the Church

[Seminarysnoozer]

Rebellion? Sin? Get serious. It isn't a question of morality. It's a matter of public image. The Church wants it's members to present a squeaky clean image. It's like the Church's stance on piercings. It advises against piercings unless it is single piercings on each ears from women, in which case it doesn't take a position... obviously not a moral issue.

Got any proof - other than that's what you believe?

Of course there is no proof. This isn't a forum on physics. This is a forum about things that are believed and not proven.

Based in a set of basic LDS beliefs, I think it is reasonable to include in those beliefs that what we do to our bodies in this life will not be included in it's restoration. The restoration will be to it's perfected form, whatever that is. I would imagine it is just how he created Adam and Eve's bodies in the Garden of Eden. But, even that, I don't have any proof or specific knowledge about how that is done. I don't think it is done, however, with a catalog of choices like "would you like brown hair or black? would you like a tattoo of Jesus on your back or on your shoulder? ..."

However the body is created in it's perfected form does not seem to be consistent with a variety of individual and unique features to make one person stand out from another. The Celestial Kingdom, as we are told, is like the sun, one body. Maybe where there are many bodies, like how the stars vary one from another, there might be those individual distinctive features. So, people that like to stand out and be unique may prefer that setting.

[Magen_Avot]

One only needs to employ Moroni's promise to know if the the things written in the Book of Mormon are true.

I am confident that the same thing can be applied to the words of the prophet (discussed earlier) to know for one's self if what the prophet said is also the mind of the Lord on the subject. Obedience to the prophet or not is a matter of personal agency which is the Lords pervue.

Whether or not someone has a tattoo is of no concern or consequence to me, but I do not subcribe to the practice myself.

[Matthew0059]

Rebellion? Sin? Get serious. It isn't a question of morality. It's a matter of public image. The Church wants it's members to present a squeaky clean image. It's like the Church's stance on piercings. It advises against piercings unless it is single piercings on each ears from women, in which case it doesn't take a position... obviously not a moral issue.

I already referenced two sources that show 'marking' one's self in a very negative light.

All issues are spiritual (moral) to God...

Got any proof - other than that's what you believe?

No. I know there are more than one references from early GA's about the process of resurrection- being resurrected in the form a person died in, and then "growing" to the prime of our lives, where all disease and blemish are removed. At the moment, I don't know who said it- I remember going over those statements in Institute class though.

[Snow]

Of course there is no proof. This isn't a forum on physics. This is a forum about things that are believed and not proven.

Based in a set of basic LDS beliefs, I think it is reasonable to include in those beliefs that what we do to our bodies in this life will not be included in it's restoration. The restoration will be to it's perfected form, whatever that is. I would imagine it is just how he created Adam and Eve's bodies in the Garden of Eden. But, even that, I don't have any proof or specific knowledge about how that is done. I don't think it is done, however, with a catalog of choices like "would you like brown hair or black? would you like a tattoo of Jesus on your back or on your shoulder? ..."

However the body is created in it's perfected form does not seem to be consistent with a variety of individual and unique features to make one person stand out from another. The Celestial Kingdom, as we are told, is like the sun, one body. Maybe where there are many bodies, like how the stars vary one from another, there might be those individual distinctive features. So, people that like to stand out and be unique may prefer that setting.

That's not the point I was making. Matthew was making up dogma (things asserted without proof) about rebellion and sin. I was making commentary.

[Snow]

I already referenced two sources that show 'marking' one's self in a very negative light.

Yeah, and...?

All issues are spiritual (moral) to God...

You mean God is morally interested in whether I eat my spinach boiled or lighted sautéed?

I don't think so.

No. I know there are more than one references from early GA's about the process of resurrection- being resurrected in the form a person died in, and then "growing" to the prime of our lives, where all disease and blemish are removed. At the moment, I don't know who said it- I remember going over those statements in Institute class though.

I am not asking for dogmatic quotes.

[Seminarysnoozer]

That's not the point I was making. Matthew was making up dogma (things asserted without proof) about rebellion and sin. I was making commentary.

I realize that. I was taking advantage of your specific point to make a broader one which is the idea that if we love the things of this world, specifically, the things that are not eternal over things that are eternal, that is a form of rebellion.

The moral relevance, in other words, is if a person is getting tattoos as a show of love of self, a prideful love for uniqueness and trying to stand out amongst the sea of people who they believe all look similar then that carries with it the risk of turning their heart away from things that are eternal. This is the same argument for the love of money. Just like having money alone does not make one sinful, having a tattoo does not make one sinful either, in my opinion. It is the sometimes attached love of self, I think, that is morally risky with that behavior. Of course, it would be a highly judgmental statement to say that everyone who has a tattoo did it for that reason, I know that is not true. And, I wouldn't be able to differentiate why any specific person got the tattoo. Just like, not everyone that has money has the love of money. Or everyone who is poor and wants money loves the money they don't have. It is where the heart is that matters and makes it a moral issue.

My personal belief is that a culture that loves the idea of promoting external individuality for the sake of visual diversity as visual homogeneity is "boring" or less attractive or whatever other similar false statement they use, is a satanic tool to drive people further away from what Jesus taught, the desire to be one with Him and God in all ways. To be one with Him in spirit but also until His countenance is in ours. Any practice that promotes an individual to follow their own direction at the expense of not paying attention to divine direction and to learn to love that way of living is in the opposite direction of the path that leads back to Heaven, in my opinion. The path is straight and narrow, the goal is one not many. Loving ideas that promote the possibility of many pathways to happiness and joy is against what most LDS believe, in my opinion. To me, that is one of the possible many reasons the leadership give us that type of direction, not just to put out a certain face for the world.

[Snow]

One only needs to employ Moroni's promise to know if the the things written in the Book of Mormon are true.

If that is true, why do people employ the promise and yet do NOT come to know that the BoM is true? ... and here I am using the word "know" narrowly. People don't "know," they believe or are convinced.

[jayanna]

Moroni's promise says to ask if it is NOT true

Read these things and ask if they are NOT true.

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how amerciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and bponder it in your chearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would aask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not btrue; and if ye shall ask with a csincere heart, with dreal intent, having efaith in Christ, he will fmanifest the gtruth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may aknow the btruth of all things.

6 And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is.

7 And ye may aknow that he is, by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore I would exhort you that ye deny not the power of God; for he worketh by power, baccording to the faith of the children of men, the same today and tomorrow, and forever.

Moroni 10*

That whole section. Asking is not enough, an answer is conditional upon you. You have to keep your part of the bargain.

There are a lot of steps listed there.

Some I can pick out are

1. If it is wisdom in God that you should read these things, you should read them

2. Remember how God has been merciful unto the children of men from Adam right up to your present

3. ponder it in your heart

4. Receive these things. Accept them! Make the choice to accept them.

5. Ask God, the Eternal Father in the

6. name of Jesus Christ

7. If they are not true

8. Having a sincere heart

9. With real intent

10. Having Faith in Christ

11. He will manifest it to you by the Holy Ghost, and you are still not done!

12. you will acknowledge that Christ is, don't just believe silently, acknowledge that He IS and that this work acknowledges that He is

13. Deny not the power of God, accept what happend as an answer from God

There is a whole lot of humility in there....and a LOT of steps, it's easy to miss one.

Edited January 27, 2012 by jayanna

[Snow]

Moroni's promise says to ask if it is NOT true

Read these things and ask if they are NOT true.

Yes - I know what the scriptures say. My question was"

"If that is true, why do people employ the promise and yet do NOT come to know that the BoM is true?"

Why does it sometimes work and sometimes not work? And I hope you don't hive me the pat answer that they must be doing it wrong.

[StallionMcBeastly]

Basically, does anyone have a good answer as to why we aren't suppose to get any tattoos?

Many reasons have been listed but what it comes down to this - because God said so.

Also, this is of course just my opinion, but I've never seen a single tattoo that made someone more aesthetically pleasing.

[jayanna]

Yes - I know what the scriptures say. My question was"

"If that is true, why do people employ the promise and yet do NOT come to know that the BoM is true?"

Why does it sometimes work and sometimes not work? And I hope you don't hive me the pat answer that they must be doing it wrong.

I don't know, you would have to ask them, anything else would just be speculation on my part.

It could be a number of reasons, maybe they got an answer and didn't recognize it as an answer, heck I don't know. My job is to shine a light not point a finger.

[Carl62]

Is there anything in the Church Handbook of Instructions that say we shouldn't have tatoos?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Yes - I know what the scriptures say. My question was"

"If that is true, why do people employ the promise and yet do NOT come to know that the BoM is true?"

Why does it sometimes work and sometimes not work? And I hope you don't hive me the pat answer that they must be doing it wrong.

Truths, including the knowledge of whether something is or is not true, has to be learned line upon line.

The process of obscuration or darkening of the "right eye"* occurs over time as well. It happens because of many choices over the course of one's life that makes it more and more difficult to recognize the truth. I think it starts with even little things in our youth. If a person chooses to be honest or dishonest, the people we hang out with, the types of things we expose ourselves to in terms of books, music, movies etc. When people rely on their carnal discernment more over time it is like what would happen if an infants eye was patched for years, eventually it would become hard to see through that eye.

The other reasons people don't is summarized in the parable of the sower given by Christ.

*"Right eye" as in Matthew 5:29 and Zechariah 11:17, it means ones memory and knowledge of good pertaining to the ability to discern spiritual falsity. In other words, the images formed out of that "eye" are not perceived correctly. .... if it causes one to stumble, they are supposed to pluck it out.

[Grannyd]

Thank you Jayanna for finding and posting the quote from Pres. Hinckley. I agree that to compare one sin as being a lesser sin still does not justify not heeding the counsel we've been given by our prophet.

[grauchy123]

Why is cosmetic surgery ok but tattoos not?

Most of the reasons I've read thus far have to do with tarnishing our bodies our temples with something permanent. However we have overlooked cosmetic surgery which as the exact same impact.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Why is cosmetic surgery ok but tattoos not?

Most of the reasons I've read thus far have to do with tarnishing our bodies our temples with something permanent. However we have overlooked cosmetic surgery which as the exact same impact.

We have? Look at my post #12, it was brought up pretty early in the discussion.

[Guest]

Why is cosmetic surgery ok but tattoos not?

Most of the reasons I've read thus far have to do with tarnishing our bodies our temples with something permanent. However we have overlooked cosmetic surgery which as the exact same impact.

Cosmetic surgery has been addressed by the prophets too. Isn't it in the For the Strength of Youth, even?

But, not all cosmetic surgeries are created equal. A child born with a cleft lip or palate, for instance, would benefit greatly from cosmetic surgery whereas Jennifer Grey born with a hooked nose would have a harder time justifying her nose job.

Of course, not all tattoos are created equal either. Back in World War II, soldiers get themselves a tattoo so their bodies can be identified if they ever end up in a massacre.

[grauchy123]

A good example is breast implants for enhancement purposes not for cancer survivors. Is that frowned upon in the same way that tattoos are? My experience is no, tattoos would be more taboo than breast enhancement.

[Matthew0059]

A good example is breast implants for enhancement purposes not for cancer survivors. Is that frowned upon in the same way that tattoos are? My experience is no, tattoos would be more taboo than breast enhancement.

Maybe in Salt Lake City, the vainest city in America (based off of plastic surgeons per capita), it's "all right" to get cosmetic surgery for wholly carnal reasons. But everywhere I've lived (always outside of SLC), members have (generally) looked down on cosmetic surgery unless it's to replace something lost via cancer, or to fix a birth defect.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Maybe in Salt Lake City, the vainest city in America (based off of plastic surgeons per capita), it's "all right" to get cosmetic surgery for wholly carnal reasons. But everywhere I've lived (always outside of SLC), members have (generally) looked down on cosmetic surgery unless it's to replace something lost via cancer, or to fix a birth defect.

I know of two members of bishopric and stake presidency who are and continue to practice plastic surgery for cosmetic reasons here in the southern California area.

[john doe]

Maybe in Salt Lake City, the vainest city in America (based off of plastic surgeons per capita), it's "all right" to get cosmetic surgery for wholly carnal reasons. But everywhere I've lived (always outside of SLC), members have (generally) looked down on cosmetic surgery unless it's to replace something lost via cancer, or to fix a birth defect.

I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but plastic and cosmetic surgery isn't used for "wholly carnal reasons". But I do admire your sweeping generalizations of Utah and Salt Lake City. It plays well in the hearts and minds of the Saints who are biased against Utah LDS.

[HEthePrimate]

I'm not convinced that tattoos should be considered a moral or religious issue. Same for other body art. But I personally find (most) tattoos unattractive, and because they are effectively permanent, the unattractiveness is reason enough to avoid them, IMHO! Some hairstyles are unattractive, too, but at least they can be changed.

It's up to you, my friend.

[DasMarcos]

Original Poster I have to say that generally speaking most religions are against any kind of human modification. Besides the two earring slots for women in their ears human modification is always unwanted.

I would say that there are various reasons for this. The first is that human modification is abhorrant to the site of God. He gave you this body for you to take care of and to keep healthy. Human modification through tattoos and piercings largely goes against caring for ones body. Your body is a temple, so keep it untouched and unpricked.

[Snow]

,,,

Edited February 14, 2012 by Snow
Redacted

[Snow]

Maybe in Salt Lake City, the vainest city in America (based off of plastic surgeons per capita), it's "all right" to get cosmetic surgery for wholly carnal reasons. But everywhere I've lived (always outside of SLC), members have (generally) looked down on cosmetic surgery unless it's to replace something lost via cancer, or to fix a birth defect.

Sounds like you have lived in some very unfortunately and sinfully judgemental places.