My thoughts this evening.


CommanderSouth
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Thanks for any who read this.

This is one of my journal entries tonight, I need someone unattached to my life to read it, because I feel like all those I know are biased. Not that you all aren't, but you have no vested interests in me :)

What I am about to say is how I have felt today, which is my 26th Birthday, one day too old to be called on a mission, and right now massively inactive in church. I don't feel worthy to ask your alls help, or even God's because of my inactivity, but I am putting that aside and throwing this out there anyway.

---

I don't know if the church is true.

I DON'T KNOW IT.

I have had doubts since day one, since before day one. My Journals will say otherwise, but I know how I pushed myself through those things. Through those time, through those doubts.

Right now I want to put out a fleece, I am not doing so yet, but I want to. I want to say if God is there that he will answer me, he will "Give me Revelation, show me what to do. I've been trying to find my way, I haven't got a clue. Tell me should I stay here, or do I need to move? Give me Revelation, I'm nothing without you, I'm nothing without you..."

I have been reading exmormon.org and see what some people have said of the apostolic witness of the apostles. That they don't share anything beyond "I know... and not by faith" Paul did, Stephen did, why can't Bednar, Maxwell, heck McConkie? I am not denying their faith, I am not saying this person wasn't lying. But I give them the same benefit of the doubt I do the bretheren.

For so long have I forced myself along. For so long have I wanted a burning in the bossom, have I wanted a testimony. But I receive so little. I question that night(NOTE this is speaking of the night I received what I believe often is the cornerstone of my testimony), I question it so hard. I thought I had found it and I could explain the whole thing away to simple excitement, and I think it may have been. My message from God could have been nothing more than my own estaticness.

I have no one to talk to. No one to help me. All I have is a God who I am not 100 percent sure exists. I may be calling out to the air. Ironically I am not in tears, I am down, but not crying. I want this all to go away, but the apathy monster as I have callled it with the elders before, is there, and he is raging. In so many ways I don't care, either that or my feelings are numb and dumb, not speaking.

I listen to Bednar's "Spirit of Revelation" when I sleep, and it is calming. And the Mormon in me says that confirms it. But I see so many problems. So many issues. This is why I need a testimony of my own. So if all the apostles fell down around me I could stand on my own, I could say aside from any man I KNOW it's true.

But I can't, at least not yet.

I want it to be, I want it to be more than anything, I want my family together in the after life because if it is true I know they will accept it in the life to come.

But I think today death is the end. Conciousness is a side effect of the body running, like exhaust from a car. I hope it is more, but for today that is how I think.

God help me.

Give me strength.

Help me stop beating myself up, even as I write this I beat myself up for writing it, as I want someone to read it, and feel sorry for me. But that cause me to beat myself up, and that causes me to want help, and that causes me to beat myself up, ad INFINITUM...

Bring back my emotions.

I have never been at peace with my decision, never happy, I just want to be happy. I don't want to feel like I am running from God...

---

Once again, thank you to anyone who read this. It could be I am just emo on my Bday, but I really would appreciate any thoughts. I post this in Gospel Discussion, because I am really questioning the idea of Moroni's promise. Am I wrong to want to be able to go back and completely reconfirm my testimony. Or does God expect me to soldier on with what he has given and rely solely on that. And furthermore, as a consequence of my inactivity not give me further light and truth and peace on what I would be doing if I were active...

Edited by CommanderSouth
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Well being inactive isnt going to help get a testimony. If you are looking for one why do you go to antimormon sites to find it? If I ever go to one I get a nauseous feeling in my stomach. I suppose that is one sign of a testimony to me that the Gospel is true. :) Not the sign I would want to look for voluntarily.

What is going to prove the existence of God to you? I very much doubt God is going to appear to you and tell you. The Holy Ghost will but you wont see him. You might not even hear him. When you read scriptures do you look in your mind and ask if its true? Or do you look in your heart for the all encompassing joy you can find there? Read about Jesus's visit to the New World and then look in your heart. Do you hear your mind telling you it cant be true? Looking for flaws? Or do you look into your heart and see if the visit He made brings your heart joy to know of His love?

The joy is there.

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You have most certainly had the influence of the Holy Spirit in your life. You have, you may not recognize it, you may not remember it, but he has been there. The Holy Ghost is also referred to as the Comforter, which is what you need now. You have called out, and I appreciate that you have a strong need and a desire. I have felt this moment, once when I accidently got on a website thinking it was mormon jokes, only to realize they weren't joking. I made the terrible mistake of continued reading. I read things that made me very uspet. At the time I thought they were enlightening, only I know that it was the opposite, they were destroying. There are only two forces at work on the earth...creating and destroying. That stuff is destroying your testimony, your self worth, your relationship with the Comforter which you so desperately now seek.

I would suggest, friend, that you get out your scriptures. Search them. Has God already given you an answer in them? Search, read, read anything at first. I don't mean the online scriptures, I mean the physical book in your hands. Search anything that you are curious about, anything that occurs to you. Read until you calm down. Then read it like that person is speaking directly to you. Like you are the only person that has or will ever read it. It is for you personally.

Then ponder. How do you feel when you read it? Why would God write so many scriptures? Would He want you to be able to be sealed to your family forever and live with Him? Did you live with Him before? Look that up....to whom did He say, "Before you were born I knew you?" Read about the parable of the seeds...where is that? Look it up. Read it. You choose which kind you are....it is not determined for you, you choose it. How? The seeds that are nourished, if you want to be one of those you have to nourish your testimony. You know how to do that, but you have let it wither in the sun, ponder how you feed a testimony, attend meetings, read scriptures daily, fhe, home teaching, come on you know these things...don't let it wither and die. How can you have a testimony of the priesthood, is it by reading about it, or is it by using it and seeing what it can do in the lives of others? Is the priesthood meant for others alone? Is it only given to those special, favored people? Nope, it is available to you, yes to you. You are loved, and you can use that priesthood as a tool to help others. You are wanted and you are needed.

Now is the time to pray. You are not happy now. You have been doing things your way for a while and how do you feel? Humble yourself before your creator. Confess to him those things that you are sad about, ask him, as a child asks his father to help you feel better. Ask Him to send His comforter to you so that you can feel His love. Ask Him what He wants from YOU, and listen as that little light within you, that some call a conscience, answers that question. You will know what He wants you to do. Then DO IT. Don't sit on a fence. Don't go back and forth. Do it, even when that doubt tries to creep back. Even if others mock you. Even if you lack self confidence. Do it, and keep doing it, and don't give up until you get that ah ha moment...and you will. Do what He asks you to do, and eventually if you keep your eyes open for it, you will see a miracle. I have seen many, and so will you. Prepare yourself to attend the temple, and I promise you will see and do wonderful things which are directed by God.

That adversary is doing the very thing that you have been warned he would try to do. Why are you falling for it? Your Father in Heaven loves you, and has given His only begotten Son so that you can return to live with Him. Search. Ponder. Pray. Then STAND, and do the will of the Lord.

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It's a journey...but carefully choose which road you decide to head down. If your journey leads you away from God, (not the church) through the pathway of serious sin, you might conclude that the Adversary is fertilizing your doubts..

ExMo and other sites are filled with angry folks for various reasons, but, one thing that site and other sites designed to disprove the church have in common, is they are as destructive as pornography and will fuel your doubts.

We all go through trials of our faith and have spiritual peaks and valleys. Suggestion? Immerse your self in church, do your home teaching, have family home evening pray ALWAYS, study the scriptures, get around the most spiritual folks in the Ward, go to institute, BE CLEAN, and if your not, go and see your Bishop. Next :) go and see your Bishop anyways and tell him all of your fears and doubts. Go out with missionaries and work on gaining a testimony of Jesus Christ first.

As the scriptures say, Be strong and of good courage. Re-read Alma 32.

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Hi Commander... that's an awesome journal entry. Very honest.

Okay, it's one thing to write this all down. It's another to take it to God. Sure, you might not know if praying is nothing but talking to air. But that's the thing that drives non-spiritual people crazy... you kinda have to start with an ounce of faith one way or the other to get an answer... you kinda have to apply a bias. You get to choose. Is there a God or is there not? You can't answer that question by just waiting for a "sign" or something. The only way to know if there is a God is to invest an ounce of faith in God and see what happens. So, my suggestion is - kneel down, with complete humility, honesty, and diligently seeking truth, and ask God - are you there?

Yep. That's it. Then see what happens.

Don't worry about whether the LDS Church is true. Not yet. Line upon line, precept upon precept.

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You are trying to gain a witness through the intellect. All it is giving you is a headache and grief.

In the movie "Harvey", Jimmy Stewart plays Elwood, who says, "Years ago my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this world, Elwood, you must be" - she always called me Elwood - "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant." Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me. "

You can sometimes find peace of mind or seek smarts. Well, some things do not come through smarts. Exmormon.org is not going to give you answers, just questions. I suggest you rethink your strategy, because the one you are using isn't working.

Take a step back. Take a deep breath. Go out and get to know God by walking in nature. Find things that will help you grow peaceful and therefore closer to God from a non-intellect source. Then, when you are again at peace, slowly add the intellect back in. Let the answers come that God is wanting to give you, and be patient with the rest. Don't let the questions out pace the answers, until you are stressed and miserable.

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I think we are encouraged to find knowledge through study and prayer. I think we also have an obligation to think things through and determine whether be believe they are true or false before we seek for confirmation. I've always been on the side that if something is true it should be able to stand up to open and honest inquiry.

In short, you are on the right track actually. Study and think things through, ask for confirmation. Pay attention to sources.....both those on LDS as well as non-LDS sites. Make sure that what you are reading is in context and is verifiable (from both sides). I'll second Bytor's comment.....is it leading your to frustration or clarity and peace.

-RM

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Thanks for any who read this.

This is one of my journal entries tonight, I need someone unattached to my life to read it, because I feel like all those I know are biased. Not that you all aren't, but you have no vested interests in me :)

What I am about to say is how I have felt today, which is my 26th Birthday, one day too old to be called on a mission, and right now massively inactive in church. I don't feel worthy to ask your alls help, or even God's because of my inactivity, but I am putting that aside and throwing this out there anyway.

---

I don't know if the church is true.

I DON'T KNOW IT.

I have had doubts since day one, since before day one. My Journals will say otherwise, but I know how I pushed myself through those things. Through those time, through those doubts.

Right now I want to put out a fleece, I am not doing so yet, but I want to. I want to say if God is there that he will answer me, he will "Give me Revelation, show me what to do. I've been trying to find my way, I haven't got a clue. Tell me should I stay here, or do I need to move? Give me Revelation, I'm nothing without you, I'm nothing without you..."

I have been reading exmormon.org and see what some people have said of the apostolic witness of the apostles. That they don't share anything beyond "I know... and not by faith" Paul did, Stephen did, why can't Bednar, Maxwell, heck McConkie? I am not denying their faith, I am not saying this person wasn't lying. But I give them the same benefit of the doubt I do the bretheren.

For so long have I forced myself along. For so long have I wanted a burning in the bossom, have I wanted a testimony. But I receive so little. I question that night(NOTE this is speaking of the night I received what I believe often is the cornerstone of my testimony), I question it so hard. I thought I had found it and I could explain the whole thing away to simple excitement, and I think it may have been. My message from God could have been nothing more than my own estaticness.

I have no one to talk to. No one to help me. All I have is a God who I am not 100 percent sure exists. I may be calling out to the air. Ironically I am not in tears, I am down, but not crying. I want this all to go away, but the apathy monster as I have callled it with the elders before, is there, and he is raging. In so many ways I don't care, either that or my feelings are numb and dumb, not speaking.

I listen to Bednar's "Spirit of Revelation" when I sleep, and it is calming. And the Mormon in me says that confirms it. But I see so many problems. So many issues. This is why I need a testimony of my own. So if all the apostles fell down around me I could stand on my own, I could say aside from any man I KNOW it's true.

But I can't, at least not yet.

I want it to be, I want it to be more than anything, I want my family together in the after life because if it is true I know they will accept it in the life to come.

But I think today death is the end. Conciousness is a side effect of the body running, like exhaust from a car. I hope it is more, but for today that is how I think.

God help me.

Give me strength.

Help me stop beating myself up, even as I write this I beat myself up for writing it, as I want someone to read it, and feel sorry for me. But that cause me to beat myself up, and that causes me to want help, and that causes me to beat myself up, ad INFINITUM...

Bring back my emotions.

I have never been at peace with my decision, never happy, I just want to be happy. I don't want to feel like I am running from God...

---

Once again, thank you to anyone who read this. It could be I am just emo on my Bday, but I really would appreciate any thoughts. I post this in Gospel Discussion, because I am really questioning the idea of Moroni's promise. Am I wrong to want to be able to go back and completely reconfirm my testimony. Or does God expect me to soldier on with what he has given and rely solely on that. And furthermore, as a consequence of my inactivity not give me further light and truth and peace on what I would be doing if I were active...

Hello, Commander South;

First of all, it hurts to read of your pain and struggling...I'm sorry you are having such a difficult time~I'm going to level some honest observations in the next few paragraphs. Please realize they are said in total good will and also a great deal from my own struggles with my testimony.

First of all, please know I have a profound witness of many things in the gospel. Like, how inspired priesthood blessing are/can be. I know God lives and I'm working on believing He loves me perfectly.

I strongly believe the covenants I have made to Him in baptism and going to the temple are authentic and that I am bound to remaining true to Him through keeping them.

There have been many imperceptible miracles wrought in my life that anyone could question and criticize as to whether they were really a miracle or just coincidence....Except that I know they are real and truly miracles. Like how the priesthood blessings address thoughts/prayers/impressions I've had, sometimes verbatim. without the priesthood holder giving me the blessing knowing anything about those thoughts/prayers/impressions.

There is my testimony. Anything else I do in the gospel, I do in faith. I, too, have questioned a lot of issues and why I haven't had a stronger witness of many different things than what I have.

The bottom line of what I've come to realize is.....that I have enough of a testimony to be absolutely miserable were I to walk away from living true to my covenants. I tell you this because it sounds like it would be the same thing for you, were you to attempt to walk away from the gospel. In reading through your op, I heard you questioning things quite a bit; but, more importantly, I heard your misery in doing this and trying to debunk your own testimony so much.

May I offer a suggestion?! STOP IT!!

Stop making yourself miserable by giving yourself a way out of keeping your baptismal covenants. If you read the Book of Mormon, you will find out that the gentiles (us) are meant to have testimonies only through the Holy Ghost, and not outstanding, obvious signs and miracles. Be honored that God trusts you so much to not have to have it given to you obviously for you to follow and believe. Stop worrying about whether or not you KNOW it's true before you act on what you have been taught and believe. Just do those things to keep your covenants, then sit back and watch the blessings unfold. It may only be a peace/confidence/sense of well being/happiness that you feel. Believe me, this is quite a blessing if your questioning now is tearing you apart. Learn to look for subtle miracles within yourself for validation that your righteous choices are true and correct.

As I write this I feel a strong impression that you are a beloved son of God. That He loves your dearly, perfectly, completely and totally. I promise you that if you will seek Him out through prayer, scripture study, church attendance and whatever else you need to do to keep your baptismal covenants, that He will manifest Himself to you in His own way, will and due time. Have faith in this. You already know enough to be miserable in your questioning. Take the initiative to do those things you have been taught to do to be happy. Then have the patience to wait on His hand to manifest itself in your life.

Best of wishes

Dove

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Once again, thank you to anyone who read this. It could be I am just emo on my Bday, but I really would appreciate any thoughts. I post this in Gospel Discussion, because I am really questioning the idea of Moroni's promise. Am I wrong to want to be able to go back and completely reconfirm my testimony. Or does God expect me to soldier on with what he has given and rely solely on that. And furthermore, as a consequence of my inactivity not give me further light and truth and peace on what I would be doing if I were active...

CommanderSouth:

First of all, this is my first post so Hello! The reason for me finding this one so important to post on though is because it hits home for me. This "issue" as some might call it. I'll call it a journey. Where it takes you, nobody knows yet. You might end up being the most faithful member of the church, and hey, if that's what makes you happy then good. You might also become atheist, and again, if that's what makes you happy, good.

My sincerest advice: Don't get too emotional about any of this. It's all very disheartening - examining ones religious beliefs - and it is easy to make yourself miserable, or even sick. My sincerest advice is to choose wisely, choose well, do your research. If a church or a belief, or a belief against the LDS church is not true, there will be evidence. There will be enough evidence to prove one way or the other.

ExMo and other sites are filled with angry folks for various reasons, but, one thing that site and other sites designed to disprove the church have in common, is they are as destructive as pornography and will fuel your doubts.

Every site has its own share of angry people. I'd say that most of the people on ExMo.org are pretty upset though because they have just started their journey away from the church. It's a very emotional time, as some of them believe that everything they once "knew" was false. Imagine if you had discovered, just today, that the world was in fact flat and that the sun actually did revolve around us. It'd be intimidating, and a bit scary.

But, this does not mean that they cannot bring up valid arguments or points. Those sites aren't designed to disprove the church though, contrary to popular belief. They are sites where people discuss what they perceive to be the truth. If it is truth, there will be facts behind it, if it is false, then there won't be. Though yes, those sites will fuel doubts. That's what they do. Just like a Buddhist site is going to fuel thoughts about Buddhism.

You are trying to gain a witness through the intellect. All it is giving you is a headache and grief.

I'm not quite sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that it's better to be a sheeple and just follow something because someone said so instead of researching it and proving it for yourself by any means you deem necessary (whether it be prayer or reading)?

I think we are encouraged to find knowledge through study and prayer. I think we also have an obligation to think things through and determine whether be believe they are true or false before we seek for confirmation. I've always been on the side that if something is true it should be able to stand up to open and honest inquiry.

In short, you are on the right track actually. Study and think things through, ask for confirmation. Pay attention to sources.....both those on LDS as well as non-LDS sites. Make sure that what you are reading is in context and is verifiable (from both sides). I'll second Bytor's comment.....is it leading your to frustration or clarity and peace.

-RM

I hate to rip into everyone in this thread, so I will say that I liked the helpful vibe coming from the posters, just maybe not their arguments so much (so don't take it personally).

As for RM: I fully agree with what you said. Determine for yourself what is true and think things through. Don't be a sheeple for either side (anti- or pro-LDS). I'm sure that God wouldn't want someone to follow Him just to be part of a crowd.

And lastly, Commander: Whatever choice you make is yours and yours alone, and you know what? If it makes you happy, that should be good enough for every other human on the planet - lest they decide to start judging for God.

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there are somethings to note about exmormon.org. as a person that has read like 40 hours of that stuff. partly because i am curious and partly because i want to hear what the other side says. and because my testimony is strong enough to withstand the sickening feeling i get reading it and not collapse.

all of those folks follow a similar pattern.

they start out questioning something(questions are good) which leads down to two things. one they find something usually something obsecure to doubt themselves. then suddenly they doubt whatever made them join the church to begin with. alot of times these are return missionary stories on there. i served a great wonderful mission and had a blast. my testimony is great.

they then consult quite often google seemingly unaware of how anti mormon the world is an confirm there doubts. they are confirmed though really cause they are looking for an excuse for their doubts to be true. the odd thing is here is where they start to realize i never had a testimony not once yet i still did all this stuff....first this is highly illogical. secondly why would you continue going to a church for 30 years and not believe it? the level of stupidity starts getting high from here on out.

now here is where it varies a little

depending if the person in question has a highly populated LDS family or if they are a loner. if they are a highly populated family they now struggle with the family betrayal issue. if they are a loner they now dont want to look back at their families that gave them the finger for joining in the first place.

now a few things happen.

1. if they are temple endowed as usually the case in these stories...the level of guilt these people express is downright alarming and staggering. seriously these people get torn up over having to get rid of the garments. they really get eaten alive. this is straight on the The Holy Ghost smacking them across the head for being idiots.

2. they become conflicted on how to stop going to church....seriously they get torn up over this.

3. if the person is married or has kids....oh man hell is about to be unleashed.

the end result is usually an angry person that is bitter at the church because they went to church for 30+ years of their own free will. they are divorced usually over this random doubt they had one day. family members hate them. and quite a few dont stop wearing temple garments for a good year or two after they become completely inactive. they then post on that website and act like completely angry bitter people and make it their life's mission to topple the church.

these people then start smoking drinking and participating in all manner of sexual perversions and sexual sin. its quite an interesting fall from grace but more or less every story on exmormon.org follows this exact format.

you will of course find a number of stories of people claiming to tell off bishops and stake presidents in excommunication meetings. there is no evidence they did or didnt do this. but given how guilt stricken many of them are in these stories i suspect it is the total opposite. i suspect the bishops and stake presidents hit them where it hurts. and they are now angry internet bloggers.

the end result is a bitter now smoker alcoholic with a mission to kill the church.

also ive never seen one happy post there. not one single happy person posting there. not one. the irony here is of course some will then profess other christian religions as the one and completely overlook the flaws in those in religions and not even bother to fact check them. why? they can drink smoke and buy hookers with no punishment.(no offense intended to other religions just stating the frame of mind of the people on exmormon.org)

ive read at least 200 stories very close to exactly what i just described with minor differences. going there for a reliable source of information is crazy. the only thing ive gotten out of it is learning exactly how Satan sucker punches people. but if your testimony isnt completely rock solid going there does give me a sickening feeling. i can feel the evil radiating from it. strong testimony is required to view said site and not get crushed.

perhaps the pain i have felt from going there will be useful to you. if so then it was worth it. now never visit that site again.

I'm not quite sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that it's better to be a sheeple and just follow something because someone said so instead of researching it and proving it for yourself by any means you deem necessary (whether it be prayer or reading)?

i think he is saying you cannot gain a testimony based solely intellect. intelligence has little to do with gaining a testimony. faith is more the requirement. intelligence can then enhance a testimony but to obtain it one needs first and foremost faith. no being a sheeple required.

And lastly, Commander: Whatever choice you make is yours and yours alone, and you know what? If it makes you happy, that should be good enough for every other human on the planet - lest they decide to start judging for God.

the flaw here is if one has the truth church being content just because other humans have found "happiness" is not good enough not when you have the truth and in the case of the OP he has the truth and is letting it slip by. so no i am not content with him just being "happy" when he could become eternally happy.

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all of those folks follow a similar pattern.

First of all, I think you are greatly overstating the similarities of the stories. There are many similarities, yes. The feelings of betrayal, of guilt maybe, but it is mostly, from what I've seen (and I've spent years on that site) it is a feeling of pain. Think of it like a 12-step program, if it helps you. ExMormon.org is the first step in the 12-step program. It is a site known typically for being the place where people go to vent and rage (much like you would when you first break up with a girlfriend, or if you just got off an addiction). The posts will be very emotional, probably not super-thought out (though there are many posters who are well past this first step), and based more on feelings and emotion than anything else.

Now for the rest.

alot of times these are return missionary stories on there. i served a great wonderful mission and had a blast. my testimony is great.

And that's great, for you. Some people can have bad experiences. Should they give up so easily? Well, maybe not, but maybe that's why they go to church for "30 years and not believe it" like you said below:

they then consult quite often google seemingly unaware of how anti mormon the world is an confirm there doubts. they are confirmed though really cause they are looking for an excuse for their doubts to be true.

A lot of the people that I have talked to from there and personally started out by reading church-approved materials with their questions, most of the time trying to prove to themselves that their questions were unfounded and the church was true. Some even felt that these church materials showed them that the church was wrong. They could have misunderstood what the text was saying, but in their mind that's what it was.

why would you continue going to a church for 30 years and not believe it? the level of stupidity starts getting high from here on out.

I wouldn't call it stupidity, I'll address this more later.

now here is where it varies a little

depending if the person in question has a highly populated LDS family or if they are a loner. if they are a highly populated family they now struggle with the family betrayal issue. if they are a loner they now dont want to look back at their families that gave them the finger for joining in the first place.

And this is why it becomes so emotional. Religion is inherently emotional, simply because of what the implications are - especially in the christian beliefs and even moreso (in my opinion) in the LDS church.

now a few things happen.

1. if they are temple endowed as usually the case in these stories...the level of guilt these people express is downright alarming and staggering. seriously these people get torn up over having to get rid of the garments. they really get eaten alive. this is straight on the The Holy Ghost smacking them across the head for being idiots.

I've seen a range of emotions ranging from "torn up" to celebratory. As I said above, I think you are overstating the similarities. There are a lot of people who get torn up over the garments, but if you think about it, it's because it represents (what was) a huge part of their life. To use the relationship analogy from above, it's like when you finally get rid of everything that reminds you of your long-time ex. For some people it's a very difficult and emotional process.

2. they become conflicted on how to stop going to church....seriously they get torn up over this.

Again, range of emotions, but barring that a lot of the people I've talked to explained this as a support group thing, a family issue (if the family is mormon), and lastly a final admission of a lack of faith or total admittance of disbelief. It can symbolize the "final nail in the coffin," so to speak.

3. if the person is married or has kids....oh man hell is about to be unleashed.

Because, as with all relationships, the other person has to be considered. Especially kids, since they are developing and can be seriously affected by conflict, emotional, physical, or otherwise.

they are divorced usually over this random doubt they had one day. family members hate them.

So someone should stay in a church if they are married just so they don't become divorced or so family members don't hate them? That sounds more threatening to me than welcoming. The family members should accept their choice, even if they disagree, because this person is family. If you love someone you don't hate them just because they choose a different path.

and quite a few dont stop wearing temple garments for a good year or two after they become completely inactive. they then post on that website and act like completely angry bitter people and make it their life's mission to topple the church.

As I said above, but will restate: This is because it is a very emotional and (sometimes) painful process for those involved - for whatever reason. That website is definitely a "first step" website, and I'm sure that if you look elsewhere you will find that while former members may have their issues, they typically won't be so angry/emotional.

the end result is a bitter now smoker alcoholic with a mission to kill the church.

There is a difference between a drinker and an alcoholic, as well as someone who's emotional and someone who wants to kill the church (or harm it in any real way).

also ive never seen one happy post there. not one single happy person posting there. not one.

You sure you read as much as you say you have? Because most of the people I see on that site, other than the newcomers, seem pretty happy.

the irony here is of course some will then profess other christian religions as the one and completely overlook the flaws in those in religions and not even bother to fact check them. why? they can drink smoke and buy hookers with no punishment.(no offense intended to other religions just stating the frame of mind of the people on exmormon.org)

As above, I haven't done any surveys, but based on my years of experience of reading that site, most of the people (I'm going to say about 70%) tend to become extremely cautious about any religion and very nitpicky about any details. These are people that don't want to be "lied to" (in their minds, remember, they feel betrayed and lied to) anymore.

ive read at least 200 stories very close to exactly what i just described with minor differences. going there for a reliable source of information is crazy. the only thing ive gotten out of it is learning exactly how Satan sucker punches people. but if your testimony isnt completely rock solid going there does give me a sickening feeling. i can feel the evil radiating from it. strong testimony is required to view said site and not get crushed.

I will agree though, that going there probably isn't the best source of information. It is an emotional site that will be biased against the church - that is the nature of its residents. I will also say that if you go there with a very strong testimony you should be fine.

i think he is saying you cannot gain a testimony based solely intellect. intelligence has little to do with gaining a testimony. faith is more the requirement. intelligence can then enhance a testimony but to obtain it one needs first and foremost faith. no being a sheeple required.

Faith is an integral part of a testimony, yes, but if someone is questioning something about the church I'd say the best thing to give a little faith back would be through the use of intellect. We humans are logical people (albeit, also extremely emotional at times), and appeals to logic work very well, especially when an appeal to emotion (blind faith) has failed.

the flaw here is if one has the truth church being content just because other humans have found "happiness" is not good enough not when you have the truth and in the case of the OP he has the truth and is letting it slip by. so no i am not content with him just being "happy" when he could become eternally happy.

Alright, I can respect that.

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dont be confused. i get it emotions are a huge point and do factor in a lot of areas. however you cannot blame the church really. you went to it for 30+ years if you are 30 at least 12 of those years were of your own free will. you freely went on a mission. you freely went to temple. you freely got married in the temple. you freely sought out and LDS spouse. still going to a place freely for that long and not liking it is the very definition of stupid.

to somehow turn bitter anger on something you freely did on your own is absurd. hate yourself not the organization no one handcuffed you to a chair in sacrament meeting.

and ironic youve been there for years? i suspect you are a member? if so i dont quite expect you to understand the overwhelming sickening evil that comes from that site. but maybe im misunderstanding you.

more to the point it is there fault really. they find an obscure theory take the famous Adam-God one which the church has said we have no idea what Young was talking about please stop asking us. as well as many other theories. which are just that theories. turned it upside down and called into question everything they ever knew. its illogical and stupid.

and FYI the garment thing....its guilt. its the Holy Ghost beating them with a 2x4. its not any my whole life is ruined it is God letting them know completely you are in deep trouble.

sorry ive read what ive read. and they sound exactly as ive described. i might be a tad off not reading the site in a while but it seems more or less accurate.

There is a difference between a drinker and an alcoholic, as well as someone who's emotional and someone who wants to kill the church (or harm it in any real way).

filthy habits regardless that come about due to lack of membership.

Faith is an integral part of a testimony, yes, but if someone is questioning something about the church I'd say the best thing to give a little faith back would be through the use of intellect. We humans are logical people (albeit, also extremely emotional at times), and appeals to logic work very well, especially when an appeal to emotion (blind faith) has failed.

spoken like a non member. faith is required first and foremost. if faith is lacking intelligence wont bring it back as TC clearly has demonstrated he cant reason his faith back. he is through "logic" reasoning what was once there really never was. why? because anytime we try and reason through faith with "logic" it doesnt hold up as faith is not logical at all. because faith is blindly believing something will happen when logically there is no reason for it to happen. logic and faith dont work together. dont overthink this.

As above, I haven't done any surveys, but based on my years of experience of reading that site, most of the people (I'm going to say about 70%) tend to become extremely cautious about any religion and very nitpicky about any details. These are people that don't want to be "lied to" (in their minds, remember, they feel betrayed and lied to) anymore.

to bad they were never lied too

First of all, I think you are greatly overstating the similarities of the stories. There are many similarities, yes. The feelings of betrayal, of guilt maybe, but it is mostly, from what I've seen (and I've spent years on that site) it is a feeling of pain. Think of it like a 12-step program, if it helps you. ExMormon.org is the first step in the 12-step program. It is a site known typically for being the place where people go to vent and rage (much like you would when you first break up with a girlfriend, or if you just got off an addiction). The posts will be very emotional, probably not super-thought out (though there are many posters who are well past this first step), and based more on feelings and emotion than anything else.

the flaw here being the poster stories are full of this emotion so no i am not going to dig through every forum post and hunt down the non emotional versions. im just not. nor do i think there are very many to begin with when most of the stories follow the formula i laid out.

A lot of the people that I have talked to from there and personally started out by reading church-approved materials with their questions, most of the time trying to prove to themselves that their questions were unfounded and the church was true. Some even felt that these church materials showed them that the church was wrong. They could have misunderstood what the text was saying, but in their mind that's what it was.

im aware but clearly they are very wrong in that saying. official church doctrine doesnt contradict itsself. all things like those "teachings of" books and other things are to be taken with grains of salt and are not official doctrine. accepting it as such is the problem. if they accepted it as such....they clearly dont understand the church. its fairly common knowledge the 4 standard works are the only official doctrine.

Again, range of emotions, but barring that a lot of the people I've talked to explained this as a support group thing, a family issue (if the family is mormon), and lastly a final admission of a lack of faith or total admittance of disbelief. It can symbolize the "final nail in the coffin," so to speak.

support group for those abandoning the truth and flirting with the fires of hell? sign me up!!! seriously they have the truth and abandoned it and usually through there own random self doubts stumbling across things and confusing stuff as doctrine that isnt doctrine and then mad that the church lied about something that the church never claimed was doctrine to begin with. seriously the stupidity is astounding. look if you goto an LDS church for 30+ years its your fault and your fault only. by that point you believe it or you dont. if you dont why are you still here? and furthermore why would you keep going? these doubts didnt come over night theyve been there. or if you have doubts overnight well why havent you had them for the past 30 years? see it logically doesnt make sense. are you saying one magical night of doubts overrides 30 years of experience? or are you saying youve been going to church for 10 years but not believing it but yet for some reason kept going? which is it? neither scenario makes you look smart.

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Yes, we exmormons are all bitter angry apostates who want to destroy the church from the inside out. I am so glad that Kayne has met every one of us and can adequately make such a sweeping assertion.

Seriously? Several of us on exmormon still have friends on this board and frequently travel back and forth to keep in touch, despite our departure from the church. Clearly we aren't on some mission to make all of you miserable, as we try pretty hard not to drag our issues back and forth. But we cannot be held responsible for what other people read on a board that is clearly marked for folks who are of a similar persuasion as we are. I don't come to LDS.net and then go back to exMormon to whine about how the terrible Mormons are talking about the prophets or the Book of Mormon here. Because this is a board dedicated to that, and that's perfectly fine.

LDS members have been told multiple times to avoid websites like exMormon by their leadership. If you are spending 40+ hours on that website with a nauseated feeling, then you have nobody to blame for it but yourself. Not the members of that website, yourself. Take responsibility for yourself and avoid whining about us oh so evil apostates.

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We are digressing from the OP's intent. Let this not become a battle between LDS and exmormons.

We've had many exmormons as regular members of this site. In many ways they still have ties to the church and to the people. Many have been extremely respectful on this site and we've come to love many of them. Elphaba and Godless come quickly to mind. I love these two. Whether they believe as we do makes no difference to me. They are still good people and have much to offer this site.

This thread was not started to be a debate between us and them per se. What is said on another site like exmormon.org is what is said on exmormon.org. It's what is said on this site that concerns me. There needs to be a mutual respect between both. So far I've seen Asriel being respectful and attempting to explain the other side. As well as Rachelle.

So let's try and get back to the subject of the OP please.

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We are digressing from the OP's intent. Let this not become a battle between LDS and exmormons.

We've had many exmormons as regular members of this site. In many ways they still have ties to the church and to the people. Many have been extremely respectful on this site and we've come to love many of them. Elphaba and Godless come quickly to mind. I love these two. Whether they believe as we do makes no difference to me. They are still good people and have much to offer this site.

This thread was not started to be a debate between us and them per se. What is said on another site like exmormon.org is what is said on exmormon.org. It's what is said on this site that concerns me. There needs to be a mutual respect between both. So far I've seen Asriel being respectful and attempting to explain the other side. As well as Rachelle.

So let's try and get back to the subject of the OP please.

You're right, sorry for the digression.

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One thing I haven't mentioned before is that I have step family members who were raised in the LDS church, but decided of their own free will that it's not the church for them. Even then, they're not bitter at all, and still get along great with those family members who are devoutly LDS.

Back to the original topic, whatever the OP decides is up to him. If he decides to remain active in the LDS church, that's great. If he decides that the church isn't for him, that's fine as well, and according to a certain Article of Faith, those who are LDS should allow him to follow his own conscience. That's what the LDS members in my step family have done, as they have never asked my mom who married an exmo, or myself why we haven't converted.

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I'm a big believer that you shouldn't be in any religion out of guilt or the need to fit others' expectations. Simply pretending to be a Mormon probably wouldn't do as much good as living fully in whatever does seem right to you.

That being said, you can't get faith or trust in any path of faith if you don't work on it.

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As I sat reading all that was written here, I wondered what if anything I could offer you Commander. You're struggling with you're faith but I see a desire within you for your faith to be validated. You WANT it to be true. What ever and where ever the truth is you WANT to know it. Or so it seems to me.

Good.

Perhaps you might derive something useful from my conversion story. If so click on my name and read it. If you do I hope it will help.

It's possible to live off of borrowed light for a very long time and suddenly find yourself at a point where you realize it's borrowed light and you now need your own light. This may be your case.

It's possible to have light but then commit acts which cause the light you had obtained to leave you and you suddenly find yourself at a point where you question whether or not you ever owned such light. This may be your case.

In the case of the first, the advice is to apply the test of Alma and Moroni.

In the case of the second, it is to repent and apply the test of Alma and Moroni.

Regardless of which is your case I wish you would read the book "How Great Shall Be Your Joy" by Steven A. Cramer.

The truth is that living the Gospel of Jesus Christ does in deed bring happiness, joy and peace. I know this to be true. Not merely believe, but know.

So the question then becomes what you are not doing that you should be doing or what you are doing that you shouldn't be doing.

If you want to know one way or the other, then you have to follow the prescribed steps to find out. You can't know a book without reading it and you can't know if the gospel will give you happiness if you don't fully live it.

If you're not fully living it, then you'll never justly be able to claim that living it doesn't bring such happiness, only that you didn't do all the work to find out if it does.

If you haven't seen your bishop perhaps you might schedule a visit. Perhaps he will have some guidance for you but if not at least you'll have his prayers and surely that wouldn't hurt.

Commander, I feel for you brother. I've felt what you've felt and wish you to feel what I've since then come to know. I've prayed for you and I offer you my aid. If there is anything I can do you help, let me know and if it is within my power to do so I will.

Edited by Martain
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I have read all of your posts and I greatly appreciate them. I often strugggle with the fact that I am Mormon and my parents Pentecostal and we live in the same home. I feel guilt thinking they could be wrong, and it shackles me down. The fact I could be wrong holds me back. And apathy sets in. Right now I feel pretty ok, and I want to look up that book you mentioned Martain and well see how things go. Once again thank you all for your insight and if you have any more to add feel free to do so I look forward to new insights...

Edited by CommanderSouth
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