Creation of Lucifer from intelligence

[jcob]

Why If I were Heavenly Father would I turn Lucifer, from the Intelligence that he was, into a spirit, knowing full well the beginning from the end?

If someone commits sin, or offends someone inside the temple, where Satan cannot be. They are not being influenced by Satan right? I immagine it is their own spirit which has the evil tendancies to commit sin. After all, Satan turned evil by himself, he didnt have his own Satan to tempt him?

Thanks for your insights.

[Dravin]

Why If I were Heavenly Father would I turn Lucifer, from the Intelligence that he was, into a spirit, knowing full well the beginning from the end?

What you propose is that Heavenly Father essentially preemptively judge us for things we have not yet done. It becomes not God knowing I'll do something, me doing it, and then receiving the consequence, but rather God knowing I'll do something and receiving the consequence for something I've not done. And consequence can be good or bad.

If someone commits sin, or offends someone inside the temple, where Satan cannot be. They are not being influenced by Satan right? I immagine it is their own spirit which has the evil tendancies to commit sin. After all, Satan turned evil by himself, he didnt have his own Satan to tempt him?

Thanks for your insights.

My thoughts:

1) Satan tempts.

2) Satan's temptation is not required for us to be imperfect.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Dravin

[JudoMinja]

I agree with what Dravin says and want to add:

God also sees the "whole picture" and not just the "pieces". Some unsightly pieces are necessary in order for the Plan of Happiness to work and bring about His purposes. Trying to understand things like the creation of Lucifer by looking at just the creation of Lucifer and not seeing the whole picture or considering all the context is like trying to understand why we add salt to a cake after tasting just the salt.

[Guest]

2 Nephi

11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first-born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

12 Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God.

13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.

14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.

15 And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.

16 Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.

17 And I, Lehi, according to the things which I have read, must needs suppose that an angel of God, according to that which is written, had fallen from heaven; wherefore, he became a devil, having sought that which was evil before God.

18 And because he had fallen from heaven, and had become miserable forever, he sought also the misery of all mankind. Wherefore, he said unto Eve, yea, even that old serpent, who is the devil, who is the father of all lies, wherefore he said: Partake of the forbidden fruit, and ye shall not die, but ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.

19 And after Adam and Eve had partaken of the forbidden fruit they were driven out of the garden of Eden, to till the earth.

20 And they have brought forth children; yea, even the family of all the earth.

21 And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents.

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

[Guest]

1) Satan temps.

I'm seeing in my mind a very disgruntled temporary secretary or salesman.

[HiJolly]

I see Lucifer (Satan) as a poster-boy for making really, really bad choices for a very long time. Someone had to be the 'one'. It's him. Blame it on both his choices, and on agency.

That's all.

HiJolly

[Blackmarch]

Why If I were Heavenly Father would I turn Lucifer, from the Intelligence that he was, into a spirit, knowing full well the beginning from the end?

until his rebellion, he was right after christ.... must have done something good before his fall to be in that spot.

nor can we justly be condemned for something we have not done yet. IF god were to never have created lucifer becaause he was going to rebel, then likewise he would never had created anyone else who would ever rebel, neither could he then create those who would rebel without being just for he would deny the same opportunity to the others.

If someone commits sin, or offends someone inside the temple, where Satan cannot be. They are not being influenced by Satan right? I immagine it is their own spirit which has the evil tendancies to commit sin. After all, Satan turned evil by himself, he didnt have his own Satan to tempt him?

Thanks for your insights.

Satan does not cause you to do anything. That is something you do yourself, now you can make yourself so that you have the same sort of inclinations as the devil would prefer you to have.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Why If I were Heavenly Father would I turn Lucifer, from the Intelligence that he was, into a spirit, knowing full well the beginning from the end?

If someone commits sin, or offends someone inside the temple, where Satan cannot be. They are not being influenced by Satan right? I immagine it is their own spirit which has the evil tendancies to commit sin. After all, Satan turned evil by himself, he didnt have his own Satan to tempt him?

Thanks for your insights.

Why could it not be that the source of "evil" is our own brain, our body? A "source" of evil is needed to create a choice between good and evil. We are dual beings both spirit and body. This is where we find conflict and are told to become the master of our body. The brain of our body generates spontaneous thought, imagination and generates hormonally and nature driven and pre-programmed carnal behaviors that have to be mastered over time.

The spirit is pure. If it were not so we could not have passed the first estate. That isn't to say that some were more valiant than others, that is a different topic.

If the spirit is the source of evil then Adam and Eve knew the difference between good and evil before they were in the garden. That, in my opinion, changes the whole story of creation and even the reason to come to this world and be tested this way.

[MarginOfError]

Why If I were Heavenly Father would I turn Lucifer, from the Intelligence that he was, into a spirit, knowing full well the beginning from the end?

What reason do we have to believe that he knew how it was all going to play out at the time?

[Guest]

What reason do we have to believe that he knew how it was all going to play out at the time?

Because God's omniscience is eternal.

[RescueMom]

Because God is a Loving Heavenly Father first.

And even though he probably knew the outcome of Lucifer, he also knew the potential he had, and had some faith in his son to choose better, hoped that he would choose differently. He gave Lucifer the same gift of agency he has given all of us, even though he knows our end, he hopes we live up to our true potential.

Learning the parable of the prodigal son from the parents point of view is one of the hardest and most precious lessons we can learn. We are lucky however, unlike our Father in Heaven, our mortal children will have the chance to return via the Atonement.

I think it must break our Heavenly Fathers heart to see what Lucifer has become, given his potential. I don't think for one minute that our Heavenly Father wanted Lucifer to choose the way he did, I think he had hope Lucifer would choose better, just like he has hope we choose righteously.

Heavenly Father let Lucifer do what he did out of love knowing that it would lead to opposition in all things. I can't even begin to fathom the heart break, to me it's unimaginable. The pain of watching my own children commit sins that can be forgiven is really rough.

[MarginOfError]

Because God's omniscience is eternal.

I don't know of anything in LDS doctrine that would really support that. It may seem that way to us in our limited understanding of eternity, but I don't know that what we perceive to be omniscience in our limited view maps into omniscience in the eternities.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Why If I were Heavenly Father would I turn Lucifer, from the Intelligence that he was, into a spirit, knowing full well the beginning from the end?

If someone commits sin, or offends someone inside the temple, where Satan cannot be. They are not being influenced by Satan right? I immagine it is their own spirit which has the evil tendancies to commit sin. After all, Satan turned evil by himself, he didnt have his own Satan to tempt him?

Thanks for your insights.

I think you raise a question that we just don't know the answer, we don't know what it means to have spirit children and the process involved. My feeling is that there is some random aspect of it that is not really under the control of our Heavenly Father, but that is my personal leaning. Kind of like having children in this world ... I don't think our Heavenly Father "genetically" engineers spirit children to turn out the same way every time. He may not have control over that. But we don't know that.

Also, I don't think Satan "turned" evil. I think Satan was Satan all along but may not have revealed himself until the opportunity arose. Just like we might not really reveal who we are until we are placed in this situation where we have choices made behind a veil. Our first estate was to see if we would vow to follow God and some stopped there. The second estate is the test in which we prove that we would actually do what we said we would do, so not just in word alone. This reveals the strength of our character when given this situation but we do not turn from anything different than we were before. I also don't think Lucifer changed from his person. He may have been going along with the plan up to that point but for the wrong reasons, fame and glory and power etc. When the choice came about as to what he was willing to sacrifice to obtain the power and glory, to him the price was too great and so he revealed that about his person. He didn't turn from who he was all along. In other words, any way you want to slice it, he would have made the same decision every time the decision was placed before him. There would be nothing God could explain or do to have Lucifer make a different decision than the one he made.

I think this is an important concept because I think it applies to us as well. We reveal who we really are by being here and making decisions. From this information God is able to place us in a Kingdom forever because we would choose that path every time we were given the choice. We work it out here but once it is worked out and revealed then there is no changing us into a different being. The whole plan of salvation is dependent on that concept, in my view, that our characters (our spirit self) is formed (we can't become something other than what we were spiritually created to be) and the plan allows us to reach our potential whatever that is.

[Little_Nauvoo]

Under that assumption none of us would have ever been created because we all would have the tendancy to sin. I bet there were countless other spirits that would turn out close equal to Lucifer in wickedness.

[annewandering]

We dont chose our children. I see no reason for God to pick and chose either. Everyone needs a chance and Lucifer has/had his chance as well as we do.

Honestly I see no reason for God to have even known, or even cared at that point, which intelligence was going to do what. That wasnt His 'job' at that point.

My husband said that God had to have known the potential each intelligence had but they still had free agency to chose their own path, good or evil.

Edited January 27, 2012 by annewandering

[Traveler]

Because God is a Loving Heavenly Father first.

And even though he probably knew the outcome of Lucifer, he also knew the potential he had, and had some faith in his son to choose better, hoped that he would choose differently. He gave Lucifer the same gift of agency he has given all of us, even though he knows our end, he hopes we live up to our true potential.

Learning the parable of the prodigal son from the parents point of view is one of the hardest and most precious lessons we can learn. We are lucky however, unlike our Father in Heaven, our mortal children will have the chance to return via the Atonement.

I think it must break our Heavenly Fathers heart to see what Lucifer has become, given his potential. I don't think for one minute that our Heavenly Father wanted Lucifer to choose the way he did, I think he had hope Lucifer would choose better, just like he has hope we choose righteously.

Heavenly Father let Lucifer do what he did out of love knowing that it would lead to opposition in all things. I can't even begin to fathom the heart break, to me it's unimaginable. The pain of watching my own children commit sins that can be forgiven is really rough.

I would add that G-d's love is unconditional. G-d made Satan a spiritual child because G-d is good and compassionate.

As far as Satan being at the temple - in the Book of Job Satan went without any problem to the very presents of G-d. Satan has no problem going to the temple - the only reason he would not go is if he could not tempt someone. If he can tempt someone outside the temple he can tempt them inside the temple as well.

The Traveler

[bytor2112]

We dont chose our children. I see no reason for God to pick and chose either. Everyone needs a chance and Lucifer has/had his chance as well as we do.

Honestly I see no reason for God to have even known, or even cared at that point, which intelligence was going to do what. That wasnt His 'job' at that point.

My husband said that God had to have known the potential each intelligence had but they still had free agency to chose their own path, good or evil.

Er....wasn't whose job? Heavenly Father's?

[annewandering]

Er....wasn't whose job? Heavenly Father's?

yes.

[bytor2112]

yes.

Well....considering that HE has created worlds without number....one would think that he knew full well what Lucifer would do. Don't you think that happened elsewhere as well.....?

[annewandering]

Well....considering that HE has created worlds without number....one would think that he knew full well what Lucifer would do. Don't you think that happened elsewhere as well.....?

Not sure that one has anything to do with the other. Never the less it was the pattern wasnt it? There would be a Savior and there would be a Deceiver. Still we are not destined to be evil. Even the evil have free agency. Given that, He still probably did know but I dont know how we would know that for sure or even if it matters.

[slamjet]

I'm surprised no one is tossing in the words of Skousen. Actually, I'm impressed.

[jcob]

God also sees the "whole picture" and not just the "pieces". Some unsightly pieces are necessary in order for the Plan of Happiness to work and bring about His purposes.

I think your right. I found a scripture today, it seems even in the pre existance Heavenly Father kept things from us.

1 Corinthians 2:7 - "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory"

[bytebear]

Good and Evil exist, regardless of God's actions.

[kayne]

I don't know of anything in LDS doctrine that would really support that. It may seem that way to us in our limited understanding of eternity, but I don't know that what we perceive to be omniscience in our limited view maps into omniscience in the eternities.

there are at least a thousand scripture verses that say God knows the beginning from the end. God is eternal. and several others say he is ommnipotent(spelling?). really google it essentially God has to know everything in order to pass perfect just judgements. or just look at the quote below

2 Nephi

11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first-born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

12 Wherefore, it must needs have been created for a thing of naught; wherefore there would have been no purpose in the end of its creation. Wherefore, this thing must needs destroy the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes, and also the power, and the mercy, and the justice of God.

13 And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away.

14 And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and learning; for there is a God, and he hath created all things, both the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to act and things to be acted upon.

15 And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.

16 Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.

17 And I, Lehi, according to the things which I have read, must needs suppose that an angel of God, according to that which is written, had fallen from heaven; wherefore, he became a devil, having sought that which was evil before God.

18 And because he had fallen from heaven, and had become miserable forever, he sought also the misery of all mankind. Wherefore, he said unto Eve, yea, even that old serpent, who is the devil, who is the father of all lies, wherefore he said: Partake of the forbidden fruit, and ye shall not die, but ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil.

19 And after Adam and Eve had partaken of the forbidden fruit they were driven out of the garden of Eden, to till the earth.

20 And they have brought forth children; yea, even the family of all the earth.

21 And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents.

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

also this answers the question wonderfully

/thread

[Martain]

My understanding is this:

God is a God of Justice.

Would it be just for a Bishop to go up to one of the individuals in his ward and tell them, "I've received revelation that a few years from now you'll commit adultery. Tomorrow we will be holding a church disciplinary court to determine your punishment."

How could that be just? The man has committed no offense!

Would it be just for a cop to come up to you and say, "I've received revelation that tomorrow you'll be driving 30 miles over the speed limit on this stretch of highway. I'm suspending your license, impounding your car and you're also spending a night in jail."

How could that be just? The man has committed no offense!

To top it off, in the second case, the punishment effectively prevents the individual from committing the crime in the first place! How could it be justice to punish someone for something they eventually never do?

It is the same with God.

God gave all of his children, Lucifer included, the gift of agency. Until Lucifer sinned and rebelled he was guilty of no offence by which Justice could hold claim. In fact, we know that he was accomplishing much good instead. As far as I can tell, prior to his fall, Lucifer was a very righteous and stalwart agent in the service of his father.

How can I say this? Well in the scriptures we know that prior to Lucifer's fall he was considered a son of the morning and was in authority in the presence of God. Do you really think that anyone would be considered a son of the morning or in authority in the presence of God if he was not worthy of such?

So yes through his foreknowledge God knew that Lucifer would one day rebel. Yet to punish Lucifer in advance would prevent him from accomplishing all the good he would do before his rebellion. It would also mean destroying Lucifer's gift of Agency which is something God would not do. Which is something God couldn't do and still remain God.

If you had the foreknowledge of God, do you think it would be just to kill innocent babes based on the knowledge that they would grow up and someday murder someone else? Of what crime are they guilty of? They have committed none!

So as to your question as to why God allowed Lucifer to become who he did the answer is this. God is a God of supreme Justice and he had given all of his children the gift of Agency. To do other than he did would be to destroy justice and deprive one of his children of Agency.

Think of Cain. God surely knew that Cain would become a son of perdition of which it is said it would have been better that they had never been born. God knew what Cain would do. Yet to forbid him to come would be to destroy Cain's Agency. If God had done that Cain would have lost his freedom. He would have lost his opportunity to choose for himself. He would have been denied his Agency.

Remember, the denial of Agency or the plan to deny others of Agency was Lucifer's plan. If God were to do the same, he would cease to be God.

As to the temple, I can testify to you that the doctrine that evil spirits can not enter into there is not an official doctrine of the Latter-day Saint Church. While others may infer or derive an interpretation from the scriptures of such a doctrine, no where is such a doctrine to be plainly found. Please do not accept such a doctrine as truth unless the Holy Ghost has testified that it is true to you via a burning in your bosom.

Do you not think that were it true, a Latter-day Prophet would have issued such a promise? Have not our prophets plead with us to attend the temple? If they could the promise that by coming we would be free from the adversary's power while there do you think they would not have given it? Wouldn't such a promise encourage many who do not come often to attend more frequently?

The promise is that all who enter will leave a better person. There is no promise that while there we will be free from opposition.

Just because one receives revelation in the temple does not certify that such revelation is from God. If such revelation is counter to the teachings of the Gospel found in the scriptures, no matter how credible, it is not from God.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Martain