If the Golden Plates were made available…what would happen?

[The_Phoenix]

Many in the anti-Mormon community have criticized the fact that the plates upon which the Book of Mormon were taken (translated), and that they were “taken”, is very convenient” for the Mormons, because they are not available for comparison, review, inspection, etc. But in reality it is not ‘very inconvenient” at all, but “very necessary”. I have given much thought to what arguments would be made if we did have the “plates”. Before listing any it is only (FAIR©) to note that we do not have (no one has) the “Stone Tablets” upon which were engraved by the “Hand of God” the Ten Commandments. Because the OT was passed down via “Oral Tradition” we do not have (no one has) any original manuscripts. Beyond the OT, there are missing manuscripts of the NT as well. Also the “famous” or “infamous” missing books…

Note: Not all missing to all versions, but missing, or a more descriptive term may be “excluded”. Many scriptural books are alleged too have been written centuries after the advent of Christ. But returning to the main theme, what if we had the “plates of gold or brass”?

This is my list; maybe some of you could add? In addition I would also like a list from those representing other organizations or interests to list what they would need to be satisfied. Including for example IRR©, President Rob Bowman or others.

My list…

No one can read this language it is made up!

They have them but will not everyone see them…this already happens with many religious artifacts that are in the possession of others; made by those not allowed to see them.

They have not been carbon dated.

They have been carbon dated and scientists cannot agree.

Mormons don’t have Scholars or Scientists, BYU only teaches Pseudoscience. This one may have merit?

I don’t care what anyone says; I have not seen them!

OK the comments made there on the plates are correct according to the inscription, but there is no evidence beyond written that Nephites and Laminites ever existed.

The plates are plagiarized from the Bible.

“A Bible, a Bible, we have got a Bible and there can be no other Bible”.

There theology does not match orthodoxy and therefore it is false.

It does no agree with our “Creeds”!

They store them behind protective glass, how do we know what it is? BTW, the Church is a con has the money to produce something and do this!

No God would require obedience for salvation.

I will add others as additional posts…

My list for why they are not available…”all of the above”.

Be serious and have fun.

Edited February 10, 2012 by The_Phoenix

[JudoMinja]

The most important thing that pops in my mind is that there was a very large portion of the plates that was sealed and not translated. If we had the plates, what would stop scholars from unsealing it and attempting their own translation that wouldn't be through the power of God? God has determined that we are not ready for what is in there, and any attempted translation would contain information we are not meant to have and would likely be incorrect, because the translation would be imperfect.

Also, Joseph Smith had to protect the plates because people would have used them for their own devices, or more precisely- the devices of Satan. If they were in the hands of men, they would aslo be in the hands of Satan, and he would find ways to use them to tear down the faith.

Remember the characters of Reformed Egyptian that were shown to the "learned man"? And the portion that was lost by Martin Harris? The biggest problem with both these situations was that people would try to translate it on their own. No matter how close we get to the truth, no matter how accurately we can translate something, our ability to understand "dead" languages is limited and flawed. To preserve the Word of God from misuse and misinterpretation, it had to be taken away to protect us from our own pride and curiosity.

[Vort]

They have not been carbon dated.

They have been carbon dated and scientists cannot agree.

Good luck carbon dating gold plates.

Mormons don’t have Scholars or Scientists, BYU only teaches Pseudoscience. This one may have merit?

Seriously?

[RipplecutBuddha]

what would happen? They'd argue over whether or not Joseph translated the record properly...

[Blackmarch]

Many in the anti-Mormon community have criticized the fact that the plates upon which the Book of Mormon were taken (translated), and that they were “taken”, is very convenient” for the Mormons, because they are not available for comparison, review, inspection, etc. But in reality it is not ‘very inconvenient” at all, but “very necessary”. I have given much thought to what arguments would be made if we did have the “plates”. Before listing any it is only (FAIR©) to note that we do not have (no one has) the “Stone Tablets” upon which were engraved by the “Hand of God” the Ten Commandments. Because the OT was passed down via “Oral Tradition” we do not have (no one has) any original manuscripts. Beyond the OT, there are missing manuscripts of the NT as well. Also the “famous” or “infamous” missing books…

Note: Not all missing to all versions, but missing, or a more descriptive term may be “excluded”. Many scriptural books are alleged too have been written centuries after the advent of Christ. But returning to the main theme, what if we had the “plates of gold or brass”?

This is my list; maybe some of you could add? In addition I would also like a list from those representing other organizations or interests to list what they would need to be satisfied. Including for example IRR©, President Rob Bowman or others.

My list…

No one can read this language it is made up!

They have them but will not everyone see them…this already happens with many religious artifacts that are in the possession of others; made by those not allowed to see them.

They have not been carbon dated.

They have been carbon dated and scientists cannot agree.

Mormons don’t have Scholars or Scientists, BYU only teaches Pseudoscience. This one may have merit?

I don’t care what anyone says; I have not seen them!

OK the comments made there on the plates are correct according to the inscription, but there is no evidence beyond written that Nephites and Laminites ever existed.

The plates are plagiarized from the Bible.

“A Bible, a Bible, we have got a Bible and there can be no other Bible”.

There theology does not match orthodoxy and therefore it is false.

It does no agree with our “Creeds”!

They store them behind protective glass, how do we know what it is? BTW, the Church is a con has the money to produce something and do this!

No God would require obedience for salvation.

I will add others as additional posts…

My list for why they are not available…”all of the above”.

Be serious and have fun.

if they were made available the critics would say we forged them.

[NeuroTypical]

Hi The_Phoenix,

There's no need to guess at what the responses would be. I've been asking church critics this question for years. Here's what I ask them:

Here's a thought experiment: Let's say tomorrow, non-mormon archaeologists announce they have found the grave of Lehi, the sword of Laban, the city of Zarahemla, horse and elephant bones, steel swords, breastplates, and evidence of the massive battles talked about in the BoM. Let's say they unearth additional records that strongly support events described in the BoM - especially Christ's visit. If all this happened, would you believe Joseph Smith and the BoM are what they claim to be, and would you go to a mormon church and get baptized?

Here are the responses I've gathered so far:

Tchild2: “Problem is, that "tomorrow" never arrives, it exists as a hypothetical fantasy. What if Jesus came down and said that the Catholics had and always had the sole power to effect the ordinances of Christianity, would you then become Catholic, or whatever religion had their fantasy evidences and proofs materialize?

"Tomorrow" is an artifice and construct of fantasy that doesn't exist, and never has with religious claims.”

---

Sleepyhead: “The book of mormon being true doesn't automatically indicate that any of the reorganization chruches are true. Each step has to be looked at logically.”

---

AZNative: “Let me know when they find Moroni's horse wrapped in the Title of Liberty, then we'll talk...”

---

Oceanblue: “OK, BoM is true and Joseph was a fallen prophet. Power went to his head. Something like that. Saul, anyone?”

--

Agnostimorm: "If something like what you describe happenned I would be thrilled to accept such a thing."

--

"If God were a real being and he corresponded to the many things reported about him by Christians, it is likely I would not want anything to do with him."

--

FormerLDS: "Honestly, I don't think it would change my opinion about the LDS organization. With respect to seeing archaeological evidence, and believing, think about this:

Have you ever seen the a devil cast out of a man? Certainly, that would be very convincing evidence.

Have you ever personally witnessed prophecy? That too would be very convincing evidence.

Have you ever seen wonderful works? Yet more evidence that might convince one to believe.

All of these and more are done in the name of Jesus Christ by those who accepted a false gospel (Matt 7:22).

Therefore, evidence can be very misleading where the truth of the gospel is concerned. How much cyanide kills? Likewise, a gospel that is 99.99% grace and .001% works will send a man's soul to the lake of fire for eternity, regardless the "evidence".

The only gospel that will save is Believe WITHOUT works."

--

Cinepro: "I'm still baptized, but it would certainly change the direction I'm heading."

--

Roman: "Never because your little drama would never happen"

--

Oprichnik (LDS): "It's in the Christian world's best interest that that scenerio not occur. Their agency would evaporate in a heartbeat."

--

JustCurious: "Well anyone who would not would be a fool..."

--

A Random Catholic: "As I said the first time [you] posted that scenario, if it happened, I would almost certainly seek to be baptized. I would retain a pretty liberal view of the origin of the Book of Abraham and tend to believe that there's a degree of Old Testament hyperbole at work in that "2,230,000 dead Nephites" bit, but apart from that, I would accept the CoJCoLDS as being exactly what it claims to be and gratefully submit myself to its leadership."

--

BAMMER: "I've already given my life over to the Lord and been reborn through faith. I confess Him daily. And I would never accept anything or anyone that taught another gospel.

Ga 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Ga 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

--

Jimbo: "First of all, IF any of those things happened, it would be quite remarkable indeed and I would be more than willing to look at the evidence. If it held up, everyone would have to admit that. However, the fact remains than none of those things have happened and it is noteworthy that they have not."

--

Joe Schmoe: "An emphatic YES!"

So, there you go. A mixed bag.

[rameumptom]

The Obama administration would fine the Church for its sudden "ill begotten" chunk of gold, recognize that it belongs to the American Indians and try to forcefully take it from us and placed in the American Indian Museum at the Smithsonian Institution.

[Jennarator]

The Obama administration would fine the Church for its sudden "ill begotten" chunk of gold, recognize that it belongs to the American Indians and try to forcefully take it from us and placed in the American Indian Museum at the Smithsonian Institution.

Pretty much what I was thinking, only this makes much more sense than the way I would have written it. LOL!

[The_Phoenix]

Seriously?

Sorry I forgot to put a smiley face after that comment. Fixed!

[The_Phoenix]

The Obama administration would fine the Church for its sudden "ill begotten" chunk of gold, recognize that it belongs to the American Indians and try to forcefully take it from us and placed in the American Indian Museum at the Smithsonian Institution.

I like it!

[Guest]

Haters gonna hate.

[The_Phoenix]

Haters gonna hate.

True, I have just never been any good at it. Of course that is a good thing. :)

[RescueMom]

The world's largest gold bar stands at 250 kg (551 lb), measuring 45.5 cm × 22.5 cm × 17 cm (equal to 17403.75 cm³, or 17.9 in x 8.9 in x 6.7 in≈1062.04 in³), it would take a couple of them to make the BOM...so just how did Moroni carry around 1500 or more pounds???

that one was actually thrown at me once...as a question not as a bar of gold.

[The_Phoenix]

that one was actually thrown at me once...as a question not as a bar of gold.

That would be an odd question for a believer in the Bible which is filled with God endowing men with great strength.

[RescueMom]

That would be an odd question for a believer in the Bible which is filled with God endowing men with great strength.

Atheist... he didn't believe in the bible either.

except wine, he had an issue with Jesus being able to drink wine, but Joseph Smith being too good to drink wine, therefore he was better than Christ.

Edited February 10, 2012 by RescueMom

[NeuroTypical]

Yeah, the weight issue is based on ignorance.

First, there are plenty of examples of thin sheets of metal in the archaeological record. Books weight less than chunks of trees for similar reasons.

Second: The BoM was “engraven on plates which had the appearance of gold, each plate was six inches wide and eight inches long and not quite so thick as common tin" according to Joseph Smith. There's lots of stuff out there that looks like gold but isn't as heavy.

This criticism was pretty well shot in the head over a dozen years ago.

Michael Ash

SHIELDS

[RescueMom]

Yeah, the weight issue is based on ignorance.

First, there are plenty of examples of thin sheets of metal in the archaeological record. Books weight less than chunks of trees for similar reasons.

Second: The BoM was “engraven on plates which had the appearance of gold, each plate was six inches wide and eight inches long and not quite so thick as common tin" according to Joseph Smith. There's lots of stuff out there that looks like gold but isn't as heavy.

This criticism was pretty well shot in the head over a dozen years ago.

Michael Ash

SHIELDS

I said that the plates weren't made of pure gold...there is no physical way that could happen, gold is too soft a metal to hold together without an alloy. It didn't matter, he didn't want to believe anything, and was mostly just mad at God for something that happened to a family member he thought was unfair.

[The_Phoenix]

Atheist... he didn't believe in the bible either.

That would be difficult to explain then. However medical history is filled with people performing great feats via adrenalin. Being pursued could be such a case.

[Traveler]

I said that the plates weren't made of pure gold...there is no physical way that could happen, gold is too soft a metal to hold together without an alloy. It didn't matter, he didn't want to believe anything, and was mostly just mad at God for something that happened to a family member he thought was unfair.

Do I understand? This person wants to blame something that they did not like happening on something they do not believe exists and they think you (Book of Mormon) are illogical? Wow - I think your friend has major mental issues.

BTW - as far as what convinces people of what they need to do. I do not believe that holding the golden plates in their hands will convince them to change behavior any more than standing before an angel convinced Laman and Lemual to get along with Nephi.

The Traveler

[Colirio]

How many miracles did Jesus have to perform before finally convincing Pharisees, Sauducees, and others of His divinity?

Those who desire to believe need nothing more than a spiritual witness.

Those who are too interested in justifying their own desires will find their hearts only get harder when confronted with greater evidences.

To answer the question of the OP, I thought your quips were very clever and probably right on the money.

[Dravin]

They have not been carbon dated.

They have been carbon dated and scientists cannot agree.

Carbon-14 dating doesn't work for inorganic materials. There are other types of radiometric dating but I'm unsure there are any that would be of particular use for this situation. Not only because to my knowledge other isotopes so used have half-lives too long to be of use (the margin of error dwarfs the dates we'd be talking about) but because you need a base line to compare to, if you found that the plates contained a ratio of 83% parent isotope to 17% daughter isotope you'd have to establish what your parent and daughter isotope was to begin with to get anything out of that bit of knowledge.

[Vort]

The world's largest gold bar stands at 250 kg (551 lb), measuring 45.5 cm × 22.5 cm × 17 cm (equal to 17403.75 cm³, or 17.9 in x 8.9 in x 6.7 in≈1062.04 in³), it would take a couple of them to make the BOM...so just how did Moroni carry around 1500 or more pounds???

I doubt it's "the world's largest bar of gold", but that is neither here not there. One clue that the guy doesn't know what he's talking about is that he didn't even get his math right. His volume is correct, but gold has a density of 19.32 g/cm³, which means that the gold brick he references would actually have a mass of over 336 kg, corresponding to about 741 pounds -- not 551. And then he says it would take "a couple" which magically becomes almost 1500 pounds...huh?

But the much more egregious error is in his statement that it would take two such bricks to make the gold plates. There are several reasons that this is preposterous, but the most obvious one is the description of the plates. According to an Ensign article (well worth reading), here is a description of the plates by various people who saw them:

“Six inches wide by eight inches long.”5—Joseph Smith Jr.

“Seven inches wide by eight inches in length.”6—Martin Harris

“Of the thickness of plates of tin.”7—Martin Harris

“When piled one above the other, they were altogether about four inches thick.”8—Martin Harris

“About eight inches long, seven inches wide.”9—David Whitmer

“About as thick as parchment.”10—David Whitmer

“Each plate was not far from seven by eight inches in width and length.”11—Orson Pratt

“Not quite as thick as common tin.”12—Orson Pratt

“Something near six inches in thickness, a part of which was sealed.”13—Orson Pratt

“They seemed to be pliable like thick paper, and would rustle with a metalic sound when the edges were moved by the thumb, as one does sometimes thumb the edges of a book.”14—Emma Smith

Note that Emma saw the plates only while they were covered with a cloth, so she did not get a full view of them. But she did ruff the pages with her thumb and had a general idea of their character, as shown in her quotation. Notice how remarkably consistent the descriptions are. Joseph himself said the plates were about 6" x 8", and I personally am inclined to trust his word (because he was the Prophet, but mainly because he had much more, and closer, exposure to the plates than anyone else). Nevertheless, if we take the majority opinion, we can guess the plates were roughly 7" x 8", made up of plates (probably hammered) roughly the thickness of sheets of tin produced in early 19th-century America, and between four and six inches in total thickness when the sheets were stacked. Let's approximate a thickness of six inches, to be safe.

Let us make the silly assumption that the stacked, hammered sheets fit together perfectly, so that they had essentially the same amount of gold as a block of gold poured to that same dimension. (This is obviously absurd, but let's see where it goes.) The volume of the plates would have been 7" x 8" x 6", or 336 cubic inches. This is almost exactly 5500 cubic centimeters.

Let's stop the analysis here for a moment and compare with what the person claimed: A gold brick of volume 17,400 cubic centimeters would be only HALF of what would be needed to fill the requisite volume. In fact, it would be over three times the needed volume. Thus, a gold brick the same size as the plates would actually weigh around 230 pounds -- certainly very heavy, but also nowhere near the fifteen hundred pounds being claimed.

Anyone who has dealt with metal sheets knows that imperfections in the sheets tend to make the stack less heavy than an equivalent thickness of solid metal. Plainly put, there is a lot of space bewteen the sheets. This is much more evident in thinly hammered sheets, which tend not to lie together flat (and probably less so when you've been writing on them and don't want to compress them for fear of disturbing the writing). This is guesswork on my part, but I would assume the actual overall density would be a third to half the density of a solid brick. That puts our hypothetical gold book down under a hundred pounds.

Consider, too, the fact that the gold plates may have had a large gold content but surely would not have been made of pure gold, which would be much too soft. It would make better sense to extend the gold by making an alloy that would have better wear characteristics. On often-suggested alloy is tumbago, a gold-copper alloy with a density of a little less than two-thirds that of pure gold. So two-thirds of our roughly 90-pound book suggests an actual weight in the area of something under 60 pounds, or around 25 or 26 kg. (Significantly, the estimates on the weight of the plates were "40 to 60 pounds", right in line with this back-of-the-envelope calculation.)

If the plates didn't exist, then of course anyone else with access to information about metal densities could have figured this out, so this certainly does not prove the plates existed. But it does prove that those who wish to discredit the existence of the plates based on the absurd numbers given above either don't know what they are talking about or else are actively engaged in dissembling.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Vort

[The_Phoenix]

Do I understand? This person wants to blame something that they did not like happening on something they do not believe exists and they think you (Book of Mormon) are illogical? Wow - I think your friend has major mental issues.

BTW - as far as what convinces people of what they need to do. I do not believe that holding the golden plates in their hands will convince them to change behavior any more than standing before an angel convinced Laman and Lemual to get along with Nephi.

The Traveler

Excellent point!

[RipplecutBuddha]

How many people not only saw Jesus, but heard his voice, and even saw his miracles? I'm sorry, but a stack of golden metal plates bound together isn't going to convince anyone of anything.

[The_Phoenix]

How many people not only saw Jesus, but heard his voice, and even saw his miracles? I'm sorry, but a stack of golden metal plates bound together isn't going to convince anyone of anything.

Good point.