Tempted Beyond Our Capacity?


slamjet
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I thank you all for your post's. I read each one and, with my own studies, have come up with the answer that suits me. Many of you have answered the original question much better than I would be able to so I'll leave that be. As for my other questions, I've come to the conclusion that while the past matters and what others have done to us colors what our decisions are (for good or for bad), ultimately, it all depends on what we want and what we do about it. If we continue to dwell and relive those moments, they will continue to haunt us and color what decisions we make. But if we reach out to Christ's Atonement, he will lift those burdens, pains and sins. So much so that (and this is my epiphany) those past moments become irrelevant.

If we allow the Atonement to exert a real change to us, then those past moments are forever erased. To go back to them becomes contrary to the Gospel. So there comes a time in the journey of repentance that the past sins and what lead up to them become mute points in life. Because with true repentance, a person becomes changed so much that they focus on the future with an eye single to the Glory of God and the hope that comes with it.

So a person no longer defines themselves by what they had done, but is now defined simply as a child of God who is striving to do their best with hope and faith in the Atonement and a love of God and his other children.

This may be obvious, quaint or even basic primary stuff to some. But to me, its a big deal.

Edited by slamjet
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Yeah, for people who are fascinated by mental illnesses and addictions, you haven't seen interesting stories until you've read some multiple personality stories (called Dissociative Identity Disorder these days).

Thanks for sharing Iggy. Kudos on breaking the destructive cycles, and keeping or obtaining the good ones.

More interesting to live with them. One thing it teaches you is that the strength of their spirit is amazing. To survive what they did and make a life for themselves is awe inspiring. My husband's therapist says he is the strongest man he has ever met. The important thing to my husband is to break the cycle of abuse which he has done.

Sin is something we all do. Some due to abusive growing up are refined in ways the rest of us will never know and yes many have sinned in terrible ways but they can and do overcome. When my husband and I are judged by God, I know who will be the strongest. It is him. He had a mission here and it was to be the wall between a chronically abusive family and the future. He has done his job well.

If you are never tested is it because you are near perfect or is it because God knows you would fail?

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I always had a problem with anyone saying that they take comfort in knowing that they will not be tempted beyond that they can bear. I felt it flew in the face of what was said in GC talks, especially what I've heard, learned and experienced with addictions and it's ability to totally rob a person of their capacity to choose.

Disagree completely.

Addicts make small incremental choices every step of the way. At the end they may be fried beyond the capacity to choose yea or nay but they got there from willful choice, one tiny step at a time.

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Disagree completely.

Addicts make small incremental choices every step of the way. At the end they may be fried beyond the capacity to choose yea or nay but they got there from willful choice, one tiny step at a time.

Hello, Snow. Nice to see you writing on the forums again~:)

I disagree with what you're saying in a few ways. I feel your explanation of drug addicts is pretty much a blanket statement.

We don't know what drives an individual into trying drugs or remaining on drugs. There are many different reasons. A lot of times drug abuse/substance abuse/anything that encourages and reveals compulsivity, is a form of self medicating for pain. Physical and mental pain.

There are usually of lot of complex issues going on in the psyche of those who end up abusing drugs or any addictive behaviour. This world is full of painful, frightening and overwhelming situations.

As I said in my last post, all of us sin to one degree or another. I contest that sinning, natural as it is for all of us, really isn't about true choice. True choice comes through being righteous, through the effects of the atonement, when facing difficulty and pain ridden experiences in the midst of making these choices.

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Addicts make small incremental choices every step of the way. At the end they may be fried beyond the capacity to choose yea or nay but they got there from willful choice, one tiny step at a time.

My wife occasionally works with young girls from other countries who ended up where they are through no fault of their own. They're kidnapped from, or sold by, their parents (sometimes as young as 6 or 7) and smuggled into this country (among others) for use as prostitues. They are often forcibly injected with illicit drugs to create a dependence and reliance on their handlers/pimps. Uneducated, many can't read or even think above a 3rd grade level. Betrayed by their parents, sold into slavery, forcibly addicted, and seriously damaged by some of the most horrifying abuses man has devised.

By the time my wife encounters them, they've either been taken by police or have managed to escape and collapse somewhere around people that call the police. Often they don't speak english. Often they don't know which country they should be deported to. Sometimes they remember uniforms from their home country, so they fear the police and fight them as if their lives were at stake.

From where I'm standing, there are two kinds of people who lose their agency. One kind goes into the dark forest against their mom's wishes, leaves the path against their friend's protests, hops over the "danger" sign against their own common sense, and ends up stuck in the tar pit. The other kind (maybe less than a half a percent of the total), are skipping along picking flowers when a bag goes over their head, and they wake up half submerged in the tar pit and sinking quickly.

Of course, it all comes down to what you do after you finally wake up.

Edited by Loudmouth_Mormon
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My wife occasionally works with young girls from other countries who ended up where they are through no fault of their own. They're kidnapped from, or sold by, their parents (sometimes as young as 6 or 7) and smuggled into this country (among others) for use as prostitues. They are often forcibly injected with illicit drugs to create a dependence and reliance on their handlers/pimps. Uneducated, many can't read or even think above a 3rd grade level. Betrayed by their parents, sold into slavery, forcibly addicted, and seriously damaged by some of the most horrifying abuses man has devised.

By the time my wife encounters them, they've either been taken by police or have managed to escape and collapse somewhere around people that call the police. Often they don't speak english. Often they don't know which country they should be deported to. Sometimes they remember uniforms from their home country, so they fear the police and fight them as if their lives were at stake.

From where I'm standing, there are two kinds of people who lose their agency. One kind goes into the dark forest against their mom's wishes, leaves the path against their friend's protests, hops over the "danger" sign against their own common sense, and ends up stuck in the tar pit. The other kind (maybe less than a half a percent of the total), are skipping along picking flowers when a bag goes over their head, and they wake up half submerged in the tar pit and sinking quickly.

Of course, it all comes down to what you do after you finally wake up.

Well, okay, we both acknowledge that some extreme cases are exceptions.

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Hello, Snow. Nice to see you writing on the forums again~:)

I disagree with what you're saying in a few ways. I feel your explanation of drug addicts is pretty much a blanket statement.

We don't know what drives an individual into trying drugs or remaining on drugs. There are many different reasons. A lot of times drug abuse/substance abuse/anything that encourages and reveals compulsivity, is a form of self medicating for pain. Physical and mental pain.

There are usually of lot of complex issues going on in the psyche of those who end up abusing drugs or any addictive behaviour. This world is full of painful, frightening and overwhelming situations.

As I said in my last post, all of us sin to one degree or another. I contest that sinning, natural as it is for all of us, really isn't about true choice. True choice comes through being righteous, through the effects of the atonement, when facing difficulty and pain ridden experiences in the midst of making these choices.

Hi Dove,

I agree with what you wrote, but that doesn't mean that people don't make choices; although I don't understand your last point. It seems you are saying that if I choose to egg my neighbors house, I am not truly choosing to egg his house.

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After reading all the really good responses to the question, I wonder if a person has been able to achieve the light by overcome a serious, grievous sin that had him down into some very deep, very dark places, does that make him stronger than most? I'm under the opinion that the strongest are the ones who don't go down that path to begin with. Ok, stronger to me is a synonym for "better person."

Hmm... I don't think it's so much that those who've recovered from serious sin are stronger than most... but rather that such change has a high chance of lengthening one's stride.

Repentance of serious sin requires serious effort and serious changes. Those that pass through such gates then realize just how much time they've lost and will often push themselves harder in an effort to compensate and reclaim lost ground.

Basically put, such a change has a high chance of leading such individuals to a very serious and earnest commitment to be completely diligence to God's commandments from there on out.

No matter who you are or what you may have done, if you want to become strong in the gospel you have to go through the same steps as everyone else.

One need look no further than Alma the younger to see an example of someone who had committed serious sin but who after complete repentance followed by personal diligence later went on to great strength and righteousness.

One need look no further than Joseph Smith to see an example of someone who had never committed serious sin who through personal diligence went on to great strength and righteousness.

Is it not the personal effort involved that makes you strong regardless of what the original motivation was?

The strongest athletes are those who are the most diligent and who train and practice more than the majority of everyone else. The spiritually strong are those who are the most diligent in living the gospel and who exercise greater faith than the majority of everyone else.

D&C 6:33 Fear not to do good, my sons, for whatsoever ye sow, that shall ye also reap; therefore, if ye sow good ye shall also reap good for your reward.

While still taking into consideration Mosiah 4:27; Sow more, reap more.

So no the strongest ones aren't the ones who never go down that path to begin with nor are they those who go down that path and return. The strongest ones are those who live the gospel most fully.

After all, when one truly repents God remembers our sin's no more. Also God is no respecter of persons. Those who've repented and are now equally as righteous as those who never did are equally esteemed in the sight of the Lord save that the latter has more works of righteousness to his name.

That being said, considering the pain and suffering that comes not only from both committing sin and in repenting of it (think Alma the Younger for the latter) and the risk of never making it back at all... it's clear which path is the better way to achieve strength.

I struggle with this because I'm not sure what a person could have been able to choose seeing that most addicts have had things forced onto them as youngsters. We are all a product of our experiences. So if a person was raised in a terrifying home, my view is that the catalyst is set as to where the flowchart of their decision making process will go. I wonder about this not to abdicate their responsibility, but to understand where this sits in a gospel context, if we know where it sits at all.

I feel we do indeed know where this sits in a gospel context.

2 Nephi 2:5 And men are instructed sufficiently that they know good from evil. And the law is given unto men. And by the law no flesh is justified; or, by the law men are cut off. Yea, by the temporal law they were cut off; and also, by the spiritual law they perish from that which is good, and become miserable forever.

That being said, not all are instructed sufficiently in this life.

2 Nephi 9:25 Wherefore, he has given a law; and where there is no law given there is no punishment; and where there is no punishment there is no condemnation; and where there is no condemnation the mercies of the Holy One of Israel have claim upon them, because of the atonement; for they are delivered by the power of him.

All mankind will either in this life or the next be instructed sufficiently to know good from evil. The sooner they learn the better for it is much easier to repent and forsake a sin committed once then to repent and forsake a sin committed every day for an entire life and then in the spirit world as well.

I recall the parable of the olive tree's in Jacob 5.

21 And it came to pass that the servant said unto his master: How comest thou hither to plant this tree, or this branch of the tree? For behold, it was the poorest spot in all the land of thy vineyard.

22 And the Lord of the vineyard said unto him: Counsel me not; I knew that it was a poor spot of ground; wherefore, I said unto thee, I have nourished it this long time, and thou beholdest that it hath brought forth much fruit.

43 And behold this last, whose branch hath withered away, I did plant in a good spot of ground; yea, even that which was choice unto me above all other parts of the land of my vineyard.

I hope from this I am able to convince you that being raised in the conditions you describe above does not "set as to where the flowchart of their decision making process will go" any more than being raised in righteous conditions would predetermine an individual's righteousness.

Edited by Martain
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Slamjet, I can understand why you are wondering this, but I have to say it is not a good idea to compare two people that way

Regardless of what sin, if the atonement washes it away, it's gone. I do not think I'm any better or worse than any sister in my ward despite the fact that not only was I a mother when I got sealed in the temple to my second husband, I have probably had more s=x partners than half the RS put together. I have not been kept from anything because of it that I know of, and I certainly don't think anyone can tell by looking at me. My kids don't know, it is a completely internal thing.

It's what comes out of you that counts. Your fruits are what make you what you are, not past experiences. You can have the best or worst past, but if you don't do anything good with what experience you have it doesn't matter either way. Good is as good does.

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I was just thinking, about those who have sin, though not specifically an addiction... the Savior taught on this subject:

36 ¶And one of the Pharisees desired him that he would eat with him. And he went into the Pharisee’s house, and sat down to meat.

37 And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee’s house, brought an alabaster box of ointment,

38 And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, andaanointed them with the ointment.

39 Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.

40 And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on.

41 There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.

42 And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?

43 Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.

44 And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.

45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.

46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.

47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.

49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?

50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luke 7:47*

Edited by jayanna
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I always had a problem with anyone saying that they take comfort in knowing that they will not be tempted beyond that they can bear. I felt it flew in the face of what was said in GC talks, especially what I've heard, learned and experienced with addictions and it's ability to totally rob a person of their capacity to choose.

Then last night I read Alma 13:28:

28 But that ye would humble yourselves before the Lord, and call on his holy name, and watch and pray continually, that ye may not be tempted above that which ye can bear, and thus be led by the Holy Spirit, becoming humble, meek, submissive, patient, full of love and all long-suffering;

I really believe that we can get chained so far into sins that we can be tempted beyond what we can overcome. I think it coincides with being so far gone as to loose the Light of Christ.

Is my thinking along the wrong track?

Just came back from vacation so I missed most of the discussion here but to add my two cents (even though it has probably already been said); Nobody can overcome this life without Christ. I think that is inherit with the description of overcoming, that Christ has to be involved. Meaning, His atonement can overcome all that happened here, it can make it clean and white as if it never happened in the end. I truly believe this.

I realize there are some, even on this forum, that think they somehow have to conquer every challenge given to them in this life to be "master" over it. But we know that is not true. It was never intended to be a "solo" flight or an independent project. That was satan's idea. We chose the group project method, with a group leader, in which we can be "graded" as a whole, as the body of Christ. If we become part of the body of Christ we will be judged like any part of the body because how can one part of the body say it has no need for the other part?

Christ is described as the finisher. He will finish overcoming whatever it is that we are supposed to overcome if we go as much as we can. We are not finishers. It was never intended for us to be the finisher. Why would we take away God's glory like that? We give glory to God because He is the finisher of our efforts.

So, "overcome" implies the group project "overcome", not just the individual part of it.

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Hi Dove,

I agree with what you wrote, but that doesn't mean that people don't make choices; although I don't understand your last point. It seems you are saying that if I choose to egg my neighbors house, I am not truly choosing to egg his house.

Hey, Snow;

I think what I'm trying to say is that if anyone is in pain, or have pain as a constant in his/her life, that trying to medicate that pain through drugs is a very natural and easy thing to do. If I was in extreme pain from breaking a bone, and knew a pill would take away that pain, I would be very likely to take that pill. I would also likely rationalise taking the pill by telling myself that I would quit it once the source of the pain was gone. I probably would underplay the negative effects of taking the pill just so I could take it and stop the pain. If I had never taken the pill before, I wouldn't understand the addictive components it contained....Therefore I would be hooked on it before I even realised how difficult it would be to quit. To me, it's entrapment....So, this is the natural process of addiction for many people. While it may be a "choice," it's a very easy choice to make when the alternative it to abstain and stay in the extreme pain.

As far as my personal experience with this~ I believe that the atonement has alleviated the pain of me quitting smoking. I would not have quit had God not intervened on my behalf and alleviated the pain I felt when not smoking. Even if it was just psychological/emotional pain (I was already on Chantix), the pain was very real to me. I know it was divine intervention that I had the strength to quit.

Dove

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Hey, Snow;

I think what I'm trying to say is that if anyone is in pain, or have pain as a constant in his/her life, that trying to medicate that pain through drugs is a very natural and easy thing to do. If I was in extreme pain from breaking a bone, and knew a pill would take away that pain, I would be very likely to take that pill. I would also likely rationalise taking the pill by telling myself that I would quit it once the source of the pain was gone. I probably would underplay the negative effects of taking the pill just so I could take it and stop the pain. If I had never taken the pill before, I wouldn't understand the addictive components it contained....Therefore I would be hooked on it before I even realised how difficult it would be to quit. To me, it's entrapment....So, this is the natural process of addiction for many people. While it may be a "choice," it's a very easy choice to make when the alternative it to abstain and stay in the extreme pain.

As far as my personal experience with this~ I believe that the atonement has alleviated the pain of me quitting smoking. I would not have quit had God not intervened on my behalf and alleviated the pain I felt when not smoking. Even if it was just psychological/emotional pain (I was already on Chantix), the pain was very real to me. I know it was divine intervention that I had the strength to quit.

Dove

I have thought about this many times, being in the medical field and directly dealing with this issue, that it is similar to many choices we face in this life regarding self sacrifice. Just like the individual who thinks that, maybe I could live a better life if I didn't have children and worked long hours, the love of money or fame takes over. Or the individual who gives into the cravings of food as it makes them "feel good". The food and the money are not evil in and of themselves, it is just a matter of whether it becomes a master over the person. Similarly, pain medication is not evil in and of itself, it is just a matter of whether it becomes a master over the person. Not everyone who takes pain medication becomes addicted. Not everyone who eats food becomes a glutton. Not everyone who makes money or who is poor becomes obsessed with making money.

We can't do what Jesus did, go 40 days and nights without eating, be tempted by Satan to turn a stone into bread and then resist it. The body will do what it does, we are not asked to manipulate the bodies passions into something that is not mortal during this life. But we are asked to keep it within certain bounds.

And, I think there are many mortal body associated tendencies that are purely from the body and not "ours" spiritually. The avoidance of pain is likely, in my ponderings, a mortal thing, probably similar to the idea that we eat by the sweat of our brow, is a mortal thing too. By death alone, we all overcome these things into a rest from these temptations. (in my opinion) Unlike, what I have heard some suggest that the temptations will still be there in a perfected body but we will have mastered them. I think, that is a ridiculous thought. Why would there be tendencies in a perfected body that would be in opposition to spiritual desires. I don't see that happening.

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In God's eyes, absolutely. But there are some sins that leave scars and bring consequences that will burden the sinner and others until the end of their mortal probation.

Hello, LMM;

I've got to believe that this is "allowed" for the best eternal welfare of the person who experiences the "consequences." That even those consequences are actually for their learning and growth. And even for the learning and growth of the innocent people around them who are called to bear the burdens of the consequences in one way or another. Like the people whose loved ones are killed by a drunk driver or that are crippled or permanently injured in an accident that was not their fault. Please know that I do NOT support drunk driving in the least. That I'm grateful for the relatively new laws in effect that prohibit drunken driving....

I say this point though because so often I've seen miracles on behalf of others that may/may not seem to deserve it. I see miracles in my own life that I don't deserve. I've irresponsibly controlled(not controlled) my diabetes for 20+ years; yet, I still see and am relatively healthy. I've heard many others bear their testimony to being physically/emotionally/etc., saved when, by all means, they shouldn't have been.

I reconcile this with the belief that there is a purpose in all things that happen...that God's ways are not our ways nor do we understand the intricacies of His handiwork in each of our lives. This belief leads me to want to be more humble and easily lead by the Holy Ghost. To trust in His will for me.

Dove

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Hmm... I don't think it's so much that those who've recovered from serious sin are stronger than most... but rather that such change has a high chance of lengthening one's stride.

Hello, Martain;

I've been thinking about your comments and would like to respond. There are a lot of points you make that I appreciate. There are some others I would like to comment on that I either disagree with or feel there are more things to consider before coming to a conclusion. I don't quite know what to do to show delineation from your comments to mine, so I'm underlining my responses. Thanks.

Repentance of serious sin requires serious effort and serious changes.

I believe that repentance of "serious sin" does require doing all we can to change; but, I believe that the Spirit produces the change of heart required to truly repent.

Those that pass through such gates then realize just how much time they've lost and will often push themselves harder in an effort to compensate and reclaim lost ground.

This sounds like, to me, that if an individual has to push him/herself even harder in an effort to compensate and reclaim lost ground; that the atonement isn't fully effectual in cleansing, sanctifying and forgiving that person. This doesn't seem right to me.....

Basically put, such a change has a high chance of leading such individuals to a very serious and earnest commitment to be completely diligence to God's commandments from there on out.

No matter who you are or what you may have done, if you want to become strong in the gospel you have to go through the same steps as everyone else.

I agree, we all need to go through the same process of being purified and sanctified by the Holy Spirit to become worthy of the highest glory of the celestial kingdom.

One need look no further than Alma the younger to see an example of someone who had committed serious sin but who after complete repentance followed by personal diligence later went on to great strength and righteousness.

This got me to thinking about the comparisons and contrasts between Alma and his long time "missionary companion," Amulek.

It's interesting to know that both Alma and Amulek had turned away from God at a certain point in their life....The difference being that Alma went about secretly seeking to destroy the church, which was going against his father, the prophet, his family and the laws of the land. When Amulek rebelled against God, he was rewarded for it, so to speak, because of his wealth, reputation and the acceptance by his family. When Alma saw the angel and as a result had a miraculous healing/change of heart while "sleeping," he woke up in the loving arms of his father, family and people of the church....When Amulek chose to acknowledge and follow the testimony already in his heart by obeying the prompting to preach the gospel to his family, friends and community, he ended up losing everything he had. Alma took him into his home to recover.

It's just interesting the different levels of initial sacrifice given by Alma and Amulek in choosing to embrace the gospel~As I write this out, it makes some sense that perhaps Amulek, being older and having more of a witness of the truths of the gospel at his age than Alma, was required to initially sacrifice more for God to truly repent. However, this is just my reasoning and thinking through of these marvellous passages of scripture concerning these two holy men.

Is it not the personal effort involved that makes you strong regardless of what the original motivation was?

I seriously don't know...I think a lot of the gospel isn't about efforting. To me, it's about acquiescence, submission and humility. It's the acknowledgement that I am weak and God is strong That I don't have even the slightest smidgen of answers without the inspiration of God, who knows all things. That without Him and the atonement of Jesus Christ, I am nothing.

The strongest athletes are those who are the most diligent and who train and practice more than the majority of everyone else. The spiritually strong are those who are the most diligent in living the gospel and who exercise greater faith than the majority of everyone else.

I like how this sounds; but, it leaves me feeling that we come to God through our "works" more than His grace. This statement sounds competitive in nature to me. That those who seem to try the hardest (we don't know a person's heart) are better than those who don't seem this way, or who even seem repulsive/falling far short of social expectations.

After all, when one truly repents God remembers our sin's no more. Also God is no respecter of persons. Those who've repented and are now equally as righteous as those who never did are equally esteemed in the sight of the Lord save that the latter has more works of righteousness to his name.

Really? Again, this seems to negate the full effects of the atonement in cleansing and sanctifying an individual. I think I disagree with the portrayal that it is the number of works one does that makes him/her worthy of the celestial kingdom....

I recall the parable of the olive tree's in Jacob 5.

I hope from this I am able to convince you that being raised in the conditions you describe above does not "set as to where the flowchart of their decision making process will go" any more than being raised in righteous conditions would predetermine an individual's righteousness.

I strongly disagree on this one. I think where/how/with what we are raised is extremely important in our journey through the rest of our lives. I believe God knows this and judges us accordingly....I think that how much opposition we are given in our lives and how we choose to handle that opposition is key to our eternal welfare and glory. But; I agree with you, we are all equal in the process required to go to the Celestial Kingdom. I believe that this process isn't always clear for each one of us, in the sense that it isn't always readily perceived by ourselves, or others.

There is a scripture (Alma 13:4-5) that says we all began on the same standing. That our progression was according to the extent we didn't "harden our hearts, being in and through the atonement of the Only Begotten Son,..."

I think our eternal destiny is a marriage between what we truly want and the mercy and grace of the atonement in granting us our true desires, either to eternal life, or eternal damnation.

Thank you,

Dove

Edited by Dove
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Hello, LMM;

I've got to believe that this is "allowed" for the best eternal welfare of the person who experiences the "consequences." That even those consequences are actually for their learning and growth. And even for the learning and growth of the innocent people around them who are called to bear the burdens of the consequences in one way or another. Like the people whose loved ones are killed by a drunk driver or that are crippled or permanently injured in an accident that was not their fault. Please know that I do NOT support drunk driving in the least. That I'm grateful for the relatively new laws in effect that prohibit drunken driving....

I say this point though because so often I've seen miracles on behalf of others that may/may not seem to deserve it. I see miracles in my own life that I don't deserve. I've irresponsibly controlled(not controlled) my diabetes for 20+ years; yet, I still see and am relatively healthy. I've heard many others bear their testimony to being physically/emotionally/etc., saved when, by all means, they shouldn't have been.

I reconcile this with the belief that there is a purpose in all things that happen...that God's ways are not our ways nor do we understand the intricacies of His handiwork in each of our lives. This belief leads me to want to be more humble and easily lead by the Holy Ghost. To trust in His will for me.

Dove

I agree. To add to this, I think that these "consequences" viewed retrospectively from our future eternal lives will kind of be like when one thinks of missing questions on a test in the second grade. At the time it happened it was much more devastating (for some) then it is when you look back at that experience decades ago and seeing the bigger picture and the relevance of such a test and bad grade. Of course, if one even fails to graduate that is a different topic. I am just saying for those that "make it" the scars and the challenges and the consequences will be similar to getting a 95% grade on a test in the second grade but still getting an A and graduating. I don't think we are going to fret a whole bunch about the 5% wrong answers over time. I think we will look back at the whole experience as growth and steps and hard work but will have the eternal picture of being saved (keeping our second estate) and be happy with the result. So, for that reason, I don't like using the word "scar", that seems so ugly and permanent. I believe it to be more like the mark one gets after getting an injection, it will pass, the burden will be lifted and not be a burden any more. This is all conceptual as we can't, at the moment, really understand the God takes into account to judge our performance and we don't fully understand our capacity.

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I like what you said Seminary Snoozer......

For some reason this discussion leads me to contemplate on the necessity of opposition in our lives.

Surely, when we have passed through this travail of tears and sorrow, we will gain an eternal perspective on our experiences here. I believe earth life is quite a unique "blip" in time for all of us. Never again, in all eternity, will we have a mortal experience like this one. So, for all the heartache, pain and suffering we experience here, I am still grateful to be here. Because this moment in time is so pivotal in our eternal lives. Because it will never be like this again. Because, in all my mortal fallibility, I still get to see the sun rise and set every day, have the potential to hike a mountain, feel a breeze across my cheeks, smell the changes of the season in the air. It reminds me of a song about this being a beautiful world....

Sorry to get carried away. I am grateful to have something to be glad for......the beauty of this world is one...

Dove

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I like what you said Seminary Snoozer......

For some reason this discussion leads me to contemplate on the necessity of opposition in our lives.

Surely, when we have passed through this travail of tears and sorrow, we will gain an eternal perspective on our experiences here. I believe earth life is quite a unique "blip" in time for all of us. Never again, in all eternity, will we have a mortal experience like this one. So, for all the heartache, pain and suffering we experience here, I am still grateful to be here. Because this moment in time is so pivotal in our eternal lives. Because it will never be like this again. Because, in all my mortal fallibility, I still get to see the sun rise and set every day, have the potential to hike a mountain, feel a breeze across my cheeks, smell the changes of the season in the air. It reminds me of a song about this being a beautiful world....

Sorry to get carried away. I am grateful to have something to be glad for......the beauty of this world is one...

Dove

Thanks, I agree.

I think most sorrow in this life has it's foundations in the setting of deserving. I think this is more so in younger generations, or maybe I am just paying attention to this more as a mother. My kids seem to have this sense of 'I deserve this or that' more than I remember being a part of the life I grew up in. Whenever a person feels like they deserve something that they do not yet have or are struggling to get, whether it is money, fame, no pain, etc. there is sorrow, grief, gnashing of teeth. The solution to it all is the skill of not having a sense of deserving, i.e. - being humble, humility. It is all around us all the time, I deserve health care, I deserve an education, I deserve a car, a house, I deserve a break today. Our country has seemingly promoted this with the ideal of 'equality' over freedom. In my view freedom doesn't equal equality. Equality is more like socialism. Liberty, justice and freedom should be valued more. I see this more as I help my kids with their homework, the undertones of pushing that ideal, that equality is more important than freedom, sad. If equality is more important then they grow up with this idea of deserving certain things in life which is a set up for misery.

It has gotten to the point that I tell my kids, "deserve" is not a word you are allowed to use in this house.

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Amen!

I really like your observation. And we do come from a society where we feel such a sense of "deserving," or I might say, entitlement.

For me, it's taken a long time to not take anything for granted. To realise that everything I have is a gift. Yes, in recent years I've prayed a great deal to become more humble, in all senses of the word. Pride is definitely part of this deserving, sense of entitlement, taking things for granted attitude that our society has.

I know this ages me; but, it's sad, because the younger generations seem to be falling apart so much more. A lot more "angst," dissatisfaction, unhappiness, violence seems to be happening in the upcoming generations....

Thanks

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Sorry, I didn't read all the posts, but I don't think one ever totally loses the light of Christ. It is always there, but it can be dimmed and blurred so we don't feel it unless we ask ourselves questions like what should I do with my life or what is the right thing to do. Then we may get a small thought which may or may not be extremely difficult to recognize.

I do agree that we get so far chained in our sins that we have no self-control. The sin keeps us down and we obviously aren't living with the Spirit. So what feelings and impressions do we receive? When we turn our minds and souls in the right direction. We accept and confess with ourselves that what we have done is wrong, and then the automatic question is, "what should I do?" That is when the faint light of Christ is brightened enough for us to recognize what we need to do.

At that point, often because what has been done has dug a deep hole that looks nearly impossible to climb out, the impression of what to do is ignored. Continuing us into the spiral of sin. The light of Christ is there until you turn your mind again to improving and changing your life, and then it will tell you what you should do. Once you accept the tough decision/impression, then the light of Christ will grow bigger and brighter until the time when you can get the Spirit into your life.

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At that point, often because what has been done has dug a deep hole that looks nearly impossible to climb out, the impression of what to do is ignored. Continuing us into the spiral of sin. The light of Christ is there until you turn your mind again to improving and changing your life, and then it will tell you what you should do. Once you accept the tough decision/impression, then the light of Christ will grow bigger and brighter until the time when you can get the Spirit into your life.

Exactly. What we pay attention to is, to me, also the relative to the amount we pay attention to carnal things versus spiritual things. In other words, the carnal mind versus the spiritual mind influences. If one pays attention to carnal influences, i.e. - hypothalamic drives mostly then they start to ignore the spiritual influence. This is also referred to as the obscuration of the right eye or becoming stiff necked or hardening of the heart.

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I always had a problem with anyone saying that they take comfort in knowing that they will not be tempted beyond that they can bear. I felt it flew in the face of what was said in GC talks, especially what I've heard, learned and experienced with addictions and it's ability to totally rob a person of their capacity to choose.

I've always wondered about this kind of statement, about what it really means, and if it is to be taken literally. It's a fact that all of us, no matter what, will give in to temptation at some point. It's part of being human, it's something that we have to go through. So... since it's not possible to live a sinless life, we most definitely WILL be tempted beyond what we can resist. But... beyond what we can "bear"? I guess that we (I) possibly don't understand exactly what that means. It clearly does not mean that if we're really strong and faithful that we'll never give in to temptation.

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I've always wondered about this kind of statement, about what it really means, and if it is to be taken literally. It's a fact that all of us, no matter what, will give in to temptation at some point. It's part of being human, it's something that we have to go through. So... since it's not possible to live a sinless life, we most definitely WILL be tempted beyond what we can resist. But... beyond what we can "bear"? I guess that we (I) possibly don't understand exactly what that means. It clearly does not mean that if we're really strong and faithful that we'll never give in to temptation.

This, in my opinion, really depends on who a person thinks they really are. I don't consider my carnal, corrupted body to be me. It is a temporary state that we find ourselves in right now in which there is a carnal nature combined with a spiritual one. The carnal nature, of course, coming from the body and the spiritual nature coming from our true selves, the spirit. On fast Sunday, for example, when I get hungry, that influence is not from my spiritual self. It is from the drives in the hypothalamus of my carnal brain. That is not "me", it is in my temporary body but not from me. I suspect many drives of this life are similar, they do not come from our true self but from the temporary "wiring" of the brain. It is much more obvious when a person talks about a person with Trisomy 21, for example. I don't think anyone would say that that person's body is really them. The thing is, all of our bodies are "diseased" in some form or fashion as we have corrupted, fallen bodies. Name one temptation that does not come from the body .... it is hard to do. All the things that Jesus was tempted with after His 40 day fast have to do with bodily drives, that come from a human brain which are much easier to control when the body is closer to it's perfected form.

What we can "bear" is not letting our spiritual self take on the drives of the body from this life. If one does that, it doesn't mean that they are gone from their lives here, just that they don't take on the desire for those carnal influences. For example, if I have the genetic predisposition for alcoholism, the gene from my corrupted body that makes it so I find it more pleasurable then most to drink alcohol, I can still avoid alcohol and not let my spiritual self desire after these worldly (body initiated) pleasures. It might keep coming up over and over again because I can't turn off the carnal influence while in this life, but I can keep denying it until I am done with this challenge. On the other hand, if I give into that influence it can eventually become "hard wired" into my spiritual self. That is the point in which someone did not "bear" the temptation. One could even try alcohol but then repent before it becomes "hard wired" into their spiritual make up and in that way still are not tempted beyond their capacity.

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