Warning: Many, Many Questions from a lifelong member.... please help

[jmjlaw]

(1) why would 2/3 of the spirits of heaven choose to go to earth, gain a body, be subjected to the trials and pains of life, have a next to zero chance of exposure to the gospel and, hence, a (what would seem to be) miniscule chance of attaining the highest glory? I understand the experience argument, but so many, it would seem, will never return to Heavenly Father's presence and, therefore, the Plan appears gloomy on the whole.

(2) What is the purpose of the "plan" whereby we come to, with small possibility of exposure, relearn the gospel that we essentially already had previously accepted by way of choosing to gain a body on Earth,especially when originally we had clear knowledge of the gospel and accepted it but now have a veil to shield us from what we once knew? It would seem that it would be to weed out the not-so-ardent or luke-warm followers...?

(3) Did the spirits in heaven really have a "choice," per se as to whether to accept God's Plan. Take God's plan, or go to outer darkness. Was this actually a Hobson's choice?

(4) On the topic of our post-mortal life rewards or punishments: why punish (see my meaning of punishment in 6) a spirit who, in clear and full disclosure, essentially accepted the gospel in the pre-existence, then here on Earth either rejected it fully or partially based on a less than clear and full disclosure?

(5) In light of (4), it is often said that a spirit chooses his/her own fate as a matter of free agency. BUT, if that's the case, why after the fact would there be "weeping" "wailing" and "gnashing of teeth?". If there is regret, as those emotions and demeanors would strongly suggest, would those same spirits, at that time, choose a different path if they had the same degree of knowledge of the rewards and punishments. It would seem their present situation pained them. It would seem the level of disclosure we have here on earth would be partly the issue due to the described reactions of those cast out... ??? Isn't knowledge of your range of options an essential component to free agency? (see below as well)

(6) Does it make sense to any of you to punish a spirit eternally? (I use punish because many in the lesser degrees of glory I can only imagine wouldn't feel quite as good as those in the higher degrees). I ask because so many at fast/testiminy meeting get choked up over how beautiful they say the plan is and it seems incredibly, incredibly harsh to me. in my mortal brain, punishment serves to promote justice and deterrance, but how can eternity serve as justice for sand in time acts of indiscretion, especially committed with less than clear and full knowledge? If we could fathom, as mortals are incapable of, the concept of eternity and to further comprehend the full range of possibilities in our afterlife, I would dare say that would be a would be a gamechanger. Some would say, the bad would be bad no matter what, but

I consider these examples: I speed sometimes. Some of us LDS folks watched the Superbowl on Sundays. Some LDS folks drink tea. If any of those acts, were by State law, outlawed to the extent that if we did them, we would have our hands chopped off, we wouldn't do it. possibly EVER. No doubt that the occurrence of these acts would, at least, go way down. One of the reasons many fall astray, in my humble opinion, is their inability to comprehend the magnitude of the consequences to their decisions. Now chopping a hand off, as insiginificant as that is in comparison to the eternities, now that's something we can picture. Some would say that rewards or dire consequences are not what motivates them, but merely pleasing G-d, but that's just not how we're wired, IMHO. For example, the act of charitable giving/service gives our reward center one of the strongest feelings of satisfaction. It feels good to do it.

I am very sorry for the rambling... I have jotted these questions out over the past 12 months amd I'm hoping to get some good insight into areas I feel are not addressed on Sundays. Thanks so much, in advance.

[NeuroTypical]

Hi jmjlaw, I'll take a shot at two of your questions.

(1) why would 2/3 of the spirits of heaven choose to go to earth, gain a body, be subjected to the trials and pains of life, have a next to zero chance of exposure to the gospel and, hence, a (what would seem to be) miniscule chance of attaining the highest glory?

Sounds like you are lacking a few bits of information about God's plan of happiness. Baptism for the dead and all that. We don't believe in a God that would punish people for never hearing the Gospel.

(6) Does it make sense to any of you to punish a spirit eternally?

Sounds like another bit is missing. Eternal punishment isn't punishment that goes on forever. Eternal punishment is God's punishment - because "Eternal" is one of God's titles. D&C 19.

[Dove]

Hello, Jmijaw;

Sorry to hear your feelings on the gospel and plan of salvation. It saddens me that you believe what you have written. It would be really hopeless to me if I believed what you were writing was true~

Do you typically read the scriptures? A lot of scriptures come to my mind that conflict with what you have written and what you portray as being doctrine... I have been trying to find the scriptural references to back up the points I'm going to make. It's hard to find them off the cuff. I will simply say where you can find the scripture to the points I'm going to lay out...

Question 1) If a person here on earth did not have the chance to hear about the restored gospel; but, would have embraced it had they been given the chance to do so, they will be rewarded as if they had actually heard and accepted the truth while alive....This is why temple work is so important to do. In the temple we vicariously perform the ordinances for the dead that they did not have the opportunity to do while here on earth...You can find scriptures in the Doctrine and Covenants that support this.

2) Don't forget that God is just in all things....We are all rewarded in this estate according to our faithfulness in the pre-existence. I have been taught that we are placed on earth at given times and in given circumstances according to our valour in the pre-existence. Also, don't forget what I wrote in the first answer. We will all be treated fairly in our opportunity to hear and accept the plan of salvation (or not) and in the consequences that follow.

3) I've never heard of "Hobson's choice;" but I have struggled with this point....the seemingly only choice in my life is to either accept and follow Christ or be destroyed. There seems to be no in between for me. However, I choose to feel gratitude for the saving grace Christ has wrought for me through the atonement. I believe my greatest happiness lies in fully embracing and being true to the gospel of Christ and the covenants I have made to the Father and Son. The Saviour means it when He says that He is the way, the truth and the light. I can believe that at face value.

4) First of all, the glory of the lowest kingdom and having a body (what we receive just for coming here) far exceeds anything that can be achieved by not coming and experiencing this earthly estate. While, according to the Doctrine and Covenants, we are punished for sinning against the light and knowledge we already have acquired here on earth. we will still eventually be assigned a kingdom of glory that, again, far exceeds in glory and joy the state those who did not choose to come to earth and gain a body can attain.

5) A basic teaching of the Book of Mormon is that we are not held accountable for knowledge we do not have. We are only held accountable for sinning against truths the Holy Ghost has born witness to us as being true....I don't know about the weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then again, I don't know why the adversary chose outer darkness. I just have the faith that God is just and merciful in all His dealings with His children, and that we get the fair punishment to our actions.

6) Except for outer darkness, I believe the doctrine to be that we are punished for a certain amount of time, and then assigned a kingdom of glory..Maybe this is where our agency truly comes into play. Maybe not all of us would want to return back to God's presence. Maybe we would rather be elsewhere. There are many beautiful passages in the Doctrine and Covenants about this topic...I haven't quite reconciled the teaching concerning outer darkness. However, as I just said in another thread, I have been told that Brigham Young taught that were we to know the glory of the lowest kingdom of Heaven, that we would kill ourselves just to be there. Something I've thought about....

As far as your last paragraphs are concerned, please don't down play the importance of our agency....For reasons I don't fully understand, opposition is essential for our learning, our growth, our potential and our agency. What you write portrays God as unfair and rather spiteful. Punishing us for things we should not be punished for. This is just not true. Again, I believe in a fair, just and merciful God. That what you say is punishment is a simply a natural cause of our sin.

Best of wishes in you journey towards hope and faith~

Dove

[uniderth]

(1) why would 2/3 of the spirits of heaven choose to go to earth, gain a body, be subjected to the trials and pains of life, have a next to zero chance of exposure to the gospel and, hence, a (what would seem to be) miniscule chance of attaining the highest glory? I understand the experience argument, but so many, it would seem, will never return to Heavenly Father's presence and, therefore, the Plan appears gloomy on the whole.

Those who did not have a chance to accept the gospel in this life will have a chance to accept it in the Spirit World.

(2) What is the purpose of the "plan" whereby we come to, with small possibility of exposure, relearn the gospel that we essentially already had previously accepted by way of choosing to gain a body on Earth,especially when originally we had clear knowledge of the gospel and accepted it but now have a veil to shield us from what we once knew? It would seem that it would be to weed out the not-so-ardent or luke-warm followers...?

We also came to the earth to gain a physical body. We were also given gifts that we are expected to magnify and improve. As part of gaining a physical body we need to do the best we can to develop our bodies into the type that will be comfortable in the kingdom of our choice: Celestial, Terrestrial, Telestial.

(3) Did the spirits in heaven really have a "choice," per se as to whether to accept God's Plan. Take God's plan, or go to outer darkness. Was this actually a Hobson's choice?

I believe that God respects our agency. Even in the premortal life God values agency. I believe that if Satan and his forces could have gathered enough people God would have respected their agency and allowed their choice to be carried out. However the majority of the spirits used their agency to choose God's plan and He respected that agency.

(4) On the topic of our post-mortal life rewards or punishments: why punish (see my meaning of punishment in 6) a spirit who, in clear and full disclosure, essentially accepted the gospel in the pre-existence, then here on Earth either rejected it fully or partially based on a less than clear and full disclosure?

Punishment in the Spirit prison is only temporary. It will be ended when a person accepts the atonement of Jesus Christ. We will all have opportunities to increase in knowledge and understanding after this life.

(5) In light of (4), it is often said that a spirit chooses his/her own fate as a matter of free agency. BUT, if that's the case, why after the fact would there be "weeping" "wailing" and "gnashing of teeth?". If there is regret, as those emotions and demeanors would strongly suggest, would those same spirits, at that time, choose a different path if they had the same degree of knowledge of the rewards and punishments. It would seem their present situation pained them. It would seem the level of disclosure we have here on earth would be partly the issue due to the described reactions of those cast out... ??? Isn't knowledge of your range of options an essential component to free agency? (see below as well)

The weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth occurs in the Spirit Prison where we have a perfect memory of our mortal lives restored. That perfect memory includes a perfect remembrance of all our sins. For those who have not accepted the atonement of Christ they will be consumed with guilt. This unquenchable guilt will be the cause of the weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. It is not necessarily a result of choosing a different path but that our inherent human nature(that of a sinner) without the atonement of Christ will experience the guilt.

(6) Does it make sense to any of you to punish a spirit eternally? (I use punish because many in the lesser degrees of glory I can only imagine wouldn't feel quite as good as those in the higher degrees).

As loudmouth says eternal punishment demotes God's punishment. You assessment of the lesser degrees of glory in relation to the Celestial is accurate IF the person has a body compatible with the Celestial kingdom. However if a person's body is compatible with the Terrestrial kingdom then the Celestial Kingdom would be unbearable. It would be extremely uncomfortable and undesirable. The same goes for the Telestial. A Telestial body would find the terrestrial and Celestial a horrible place.

Each kingdom with be the perfect place for each of the respective body types. No matter which kingdom a person goes to it will be heaven to them. They will have no regret for being there nor any longing to be in another kingdom.

I ask because so many at fast/testiminy meeting get choked up over how beautiful they say the plan is and it seems incredibly, incredibly harsh to me. in my mortal brain, punishment serves to promote justice and deterrance, but how can eternity serve as justice for sand in time acts of indiscretion, especially committed with less than clear and full knowledge? If we could fathom, as mortals are incapable of, the concept of eternity and to further comprehend the full range of possibilities in our afterlife, I would dare say that would be a would be a gamechanger.

You are right the Plan of Salvation would be extremely harsh were it not for the atoning sacrifice of Christ. It is the atonement of Christ that allows the mistakes we make in these speed bump in eternity(horrible analogy) to be overcome. Our destination in the end(metaphorically speaking) will be the culmination of our entire history and the level to which we have attuned ourselves. It is not just the sole result of this mortal blip. However if it were not for Christ our tiniest imperfection would immediately halt our progression and we would be lost eternally.

Some would say, the bad would be bad no matter what, but

I consider these examples: I speed sometimes. Some of us LDS folks watched the Superbowl on Sundays. Some LDS folks drink tea. If any of those acts, were by State law, outlawed to the extent that if we did them, we would have our hands chopped off, we wouldn't do it. possibly EVER. No doubt that the occurrence of these acts would, at least, go way down. One of the reasons many fall astray, in my humble opinion, is their inability to comprehend the magnitude of the consequences to their decisions. Now chopping a hand off, as insiginificant as that is in comparison to the eternities, now that's something we can picture. Some would say that rewards or dire consequences are not what motivates them, but merely pleasing G-d, but that's just not how we're wired, IMHO. For example, the act of charitable giving/service gives our reward center one of the strongest feelings of satisfaction. It feels good to do it.

You analogy is interesting but a bit flawed. We can make a choice to not speed, or not watch the superbowl or not drink tea. But there is no possible way to avoid sinning in this life. It is actually the law that condemns us because it is impossible for us to obey the law 100%. Therefor anyone who reaches the age of accountability is immediately accountable for all their sins. And it is impossible to not sin. Therefor we are all guilty and the punishment is death.

However, Christ has opened the way for all of us wicked sinners to avoid the punishment through Christ's mercy.

I am very sorry for the rambling... I have jotted these questions out over the past 12 months amd I'm hoping to get some good insight into areas I feel are not addressed on Sundays. Thanks so much, in advance.

I hope you can read through my ramblings and that maybe I presented something of interest to you.

[pam]

Just a suggestion in the future. It's best to ask one question per thread. It's easier to follow the conversation that way.

[Backroads]

(1) why would 2/3 of the spirits of heaven choose to go to earth, gain a body, be subjected to the trials and pains of life, have a next to zero chance of exposure to the gospel and, hence, a (what would seem to be) miniscule chance of attaining the highest glory? I understand the experience argument, but so many, it would seem, will never return to Heavenly Father's presence and, therefore, the Plan appears gloomy on the whole.

It has been said that if we could see the Telestial Kingdom (the lowest glory) we would kill ourselves to obtain it. I realize that is not what you're asking, but really, what is needed to obtain the highest glory? Everyone on this earth has an equal shot whether they know of this gospel in this life or not. We are judged on so many things, not just on whether we were a casserole-baking Mormon.

(2) What is the purpose of the "plan" whereby we come to, with small possibility of exposure, relearn the gospel that we essentially already had previously accepted by way of choosing to gain a body on Earth,especially when originally we had clear knowledge of the gospel and accepted it but now have a veil to shield us from what we once knew? It would seem that it would be to weed out the not-so-ardent or luke-warm followers...?

I know you don't like the experience answer, but when we essentially knew the gospel in the pre-existence, I imagine that gospel was pretty much fact. We were happy little spirits, we had no bodies. We did not have the knowledge and wisdom gained from an earth life.

(3) Did the spirits in heaven really have a "choice," per se as to whether to accept God's Plan. Take God's plan, or go to outer darkness. Was this actually a Hobson's choice?

Kind of. Satan's plan was a lie from the beginning. By not following God and being able to reside in His presence, the only real option is outer darkness. Don't think of it as being nice, think of it as a scientific impossibility.

(4) On the topic of our post-mortal life rewards or punishments: why punish (see my meaning of punishment in 6) a spirit who, in clear and full disclosure, essentially accepted the gospel in the pre-existence, then here on Earth either rejected it fully or partially based on a less than clear and full disclosure?

It's not that simple. Everyone has the same opportunities, whether in this life or in the spirit world. We are told that when we die we will still have the same weaknesses and desires we have now; therefore, everyone will have the same challenges to the gospel whether they are mortal or post-mortal.

(5) In light of (4), it is often said that a spirit chooses his/her own fate as a matter of free agency. BUT, if that's the case, why after the fact would there be "weeping" "wailing" and "gnashing of teeth?". If there is regret, as those emotions and demeanors would strongly suggest, would those same spirits, at that time, choose a different path if they had the same degree of knowledge of the rewards and punishments. It would seem their present situation pained them. It would seem the level of disclosure we have here on earth would be partly the issue due to the described reactions of those cast out... ??? Isn't knowledge of your range of options an essential component to free agency? (see below as well)

Consequence. We make choices every day in our free will, knowing perfectly well the potential consequences, and a lot of those still lead to a type of weeping/wailing/teeth gnashing.

(6) Does it make sense to any of you to punish a spirit eternally? (I use punish because many in the lesser degrees of glory I can only imagine wouldn't feel quite as good as those in the higher degrees). I ask because so many at fast/testiminy meeting get choked up over how beautiful they say the plan is and it seems incredibly, incredibly harsh to me. in my mortal brain, punishment serves to promote justice and deterrance, but how can eternity serve as justice for sand in time acts of indiscretion, especially committed with less than clear and full knowledge? If we could fathom, as mortals are incapable of, the concept of eternity and to further comprehend the full range of possibilities in our afterlife, I would dare say that would be a would be a gamechanger. Some would say, the bad would be bad no matter what, but

I consider these examples: I speed sometimes. Some of us LDS folks watched the Superbowl on Sundays. Some LDS folks drink tea. If any of those acts, were by State law, outlawed to the extent that if we did them, we would have our hands chopped off, we wouldn't do it. possibly EVER. No doubt that the occurrence of these acts would, at least, go way down. One of the reasons many fall astray, in my humble opinion, is their inability to comprehend the magnitude of the consequences to their decisions. Now chopping a hand off, as insiginificant as that is in comparison to the eternities, now that's something we can picture. Some would say that rewards or dire consequences are not what motivates them, but merely pleasing G-d, but that's just not how we're wired, IMHO. For example, the act of charitable giving/service gives our reward center one of the strongest feelings of satisfaction. It feels good to do it.

.

Yes, your examples here are kind of weak. The thing is, we all will get the same comprehension of possibilities. It's not just about the mortal life.

[Guest]

I think you're focused on ticking off marks of things we have to do, like if we fill out a worksheet of required deeds, we've done what we're supposed to in this life and if we haven't, too bad so sad. I've said it before, and I emphasize that this is doctrine according to Eowyn, but I don't think that's quite it. Of course we have necessary ordinances, but I think that our lives are more about who we become than about the things we do. We've been given guidelines and counsel that will help us more easily become whole, righteous beings full of light who are prepared to live in God's presence forever and gain full knowledge. Before we were in total innocence and our growth was stifled. He wanted more for us, and that required experiencing mortality and the ability to exercise agency. That means making missteps along the way, but if we're on the right path to becoming who He hopes and knows we can, that's all He asks. We're here to try, to put forth the effort, to take advantage of the Atonement when we stumble, to become capable of inheriting all that He has. It's a beautiful and merciful plan to me, when you add in work for the dead.

[rameumptom]

(1) why would 2/3 of the spirits of heaven choose to go to earth, gain a body, be subjected to the trials and pains of life, have a next to zero chance of exposure to the gospel and, hence, a (what would seem to be) miniscule chance of attaining the highest glory? I understand the experience argument, but so many, it would seem, will never return to Heavenly Father's presence and, therefore, the Plan appears gloomy on the whole.

Actually, the answer here is the atonement and the fulness of the gospel. Those who do not hear of the gospel in this life will get a full chance to hear and accept it in the Spirit World. In D&C 137, Joseph Smith saw a vision of heaven, where he saw his brother Alvin in the celestial kingdom. He wondered how that could be, given Alvin never had the chance to be baptized before dying. It is because all will receive a full opportunity to accept the celestial world. As it is, the plan means there is a near universal salvation from death and hell. Even murderers who barely repent of sins will gain the glory of the Telestial Kingdom, if not more.

So, it actually is a very bright plan, especially if you compare it to the Calvinist belief in a limited atonement, etc.

(2) What is the purpose of the "plan" whereby we come to, with small possibility of exposure, relearn the gospel that we essentially already had previously accepted by way of choosing to gain a body on Earth,especially when originally we had clear knowledge of the gospel and accepted it but now have a veil to shield us from what we once knew? It would seem that it would be to weed out the not-so-ardent or luke-warm followers...?

We must learn how to become god-like. Whether we have the gospel in this life or not, we gain experiences that teach us patience, kindness, empathy, forgiveness, caring, charity, faith, hope, etc. From these experiences, we begin to understand true godliness. Then, whether we receive the gospel in this life or in the Spirit World, it helps us to better understand the purposes of this life and the experiences we've had.

(3) Did the spirits in heaven really have a "choice," per se as to whether to accept God's Plan. Take God's plan, or go to outer darkness. Was this actually a Hobson's choice?

No, it wasn't quite like you place it. God presented His plan. The only question provided was "whom shall I send?" (Abraham 3). There was no other plan to be discussed. What occurred is Lucifer offered himself to go, but insisted on changing the plan. He was rejected, because he would not do God's will. He and his followers were kicked out, not for rejecting God's plan, but for rebellion. They tried to start a war in heaven, and to replace God with Lucifer. Because they totally refused and rebelled, there was no other place to send them but outer darkness.

(4) On the topic of our post-mortal life rewards or punishments: why punish (see my meaning of punishment in 6) a spirit who, in clear and full disclosure, essentially accepted the gospel in the pre-existence, then here on Earth either rejected it fully or partially based on a less than clear and full disclosure?

Punishment is given only as a method to try and get people to repent. In Alma 36, we see the young man Alma suffering in spirit prison hell for his rebellion. Yet, once he repented, he was immediately rescued from the pain and entered into the joy of God. What punishment is is a natural event. We reject the presence of God and his light, and place ourselves in the darkness. Kind of like the great recession we now are going through: for government, business, banks and people who were careless and risky with money, they now are suffering for their poor choices; while those who were careful, are managing much better. God allows punishment to occur as a natural recourse, so that we may repent and escape outer darkness and the suffering that happens there (see D&C 19).

(5) In light of (4), it is often said that a spirit chooses his/her own fate as a matter of free agency. BUT, if that's the case, why after the fact would there be "weeping" "wailing" and "gnashing of teeth?". If there is regret, as those emotions and demeanors would strongly suggest, would those same spirits, at that time, choose a different path if they had the same degree of knowledge of the rewards and punishments. It would seem their present situation pained them. It would seem the level of disclosure we have here on earth would be partly the issue due to the described reactions of those cast out... ??? Isn't knowledge of your range of options an essential component to free agency? (see below as well)

Again, the weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth occur for two reasons. First, as part of the darkness in spirit prison hell that a person will experience until they repent and return into the presence of God. Second, for those who remain sons of perdition, that is their natural state. They have no joy, because they refuse the atonement. All that is left is the gnashing of teeth.

(6) Does it make sense to any of you to punish a spirit eternally?

No, it doesn't make sense. Which is why spirits or resurrected beings are not punished eternally. D&C 19 teaches us that "Eternal" is another name for God, so "Eternal punishment is God's punishment". There is an end to such punishment, as all will eventually leave spirit prison hell, where the suffering occurs until a being chooses to repent. They suffer because they have taken upon themselves their own sins, not allowing Christ's atonement to take away the sin and suffering. Once they do repent, whether it takes a day or 1000 years, they are rescued from the darkness and suffering.

Each is given the level of glory they will be happy with. Mormon 9:4 teaches us that the wicked would be more miserable in the presence of God than in hell. D&C 76 tells us that the Telestial Kingdom is a kingdom of glory and salvation, far more wonderful than anything upon this earth. How is that a punishment? Sons of perdition will go to outer darkness because that is where they will be most comfortable - they would actually suffer in a kingdom of glory, being in the presence of at least one member of the Godhead.

It seems to me that you have not been taught the gospel very well. I'm glad you brought your questions here, because what you've been taught is NOT the gospel according to the scriptures or modern prophets. One of the Church's greatest strengths AND weaknesses is having a lay ministry. It is a strength when the members actively learn and know the gospel and then teach it. It is a weakness when unlearned members make up their own version of the gospel based upon the philosophies of some other Mormons, mingled with scripture.

Christ's atonement maximizes salvation, giving each person as much glory and joy and he/she wants and is ready to receive.

Even then, we see there is progression within the kingdom they will be in, with those from higher realms descending to teach them of higher things. So there is great joy in the Telestial Kingdom for those of a telestial nature. It IS heaven, or a part of it.

Although not a doctrine, it has been pondered by some past General Authorities like the apostles James Talmage and John Widtsoe that there might even be progression between kingdoms, once a person has become holy enough and ready enough to enjoy the higher glories of God.

[Magen_Avot]

We are judged on so many things, not just on whether we were a casserole-baking Mormon.

Oh thank goodness! I don't cook & my wife being Native American doesn't go there either!

[HEthePrimate]

jmjlaw, I don't have time to write too much right now, but maybe the purpose of this life is not about being tested, receiving the gospel, etc. Obviously, most people on this earth never get a real chance to accept the gospel, and people's different life circumstances makes for a very unfair playing field. But what if it's not about that?

I know a CES Director who ponders these questions, too, and told me once that maybe the purpose of this life is to humble us. And to let us live in very difficult circumstances for a while so we could learn certain lessons, perhaps about humility, as already mentioned, and empathy for those who suffer, and an understanding of why people sin, because we ourselves have sinned, thus giving us better insight into how to deal with others who sin, etc. You know how the scriptures say that Jesus lived among us as a mortal, and experienced suffering and temptation, so he could know, according to the flesh, how to succor us in our temptations and sufferings? Well, maybe our purpose isn't so different, and we should emulate Him by learning how to succor each other in suffering and temptation.

I don't necessarily have definitive answers, but sometimes being willing to ask the questions, and think about a variety of different possibilities (even if they're not in a Church correlated manual) can be helpful. Perhaps that is one purpose of life--God might want us to seriously ponder the difficult questions, because that is part of "growing up" and becoming more like him.

Bonne chance, mon ami.

HEP

Edited February 16, 2012 by HEthePrimate

[jmjlaw]

Hello, Jmijaw;

Sorry to hear your feelings on the gospel and plan of salvation. It saddens me that you believe what you have written. It would be really hopeless to me if I believed what you were writing was true~

I didnt post here for condescension or feigned pity. I have read the scriptures. I'm not representing that anything I wrote it "true"- they are just what I observe to be logical extensions (not facts) of the scriptoral text. I was really trying to get some thoughtful responses.

Question 1) If a person here on earth did not have the chance to hear about the restored gospel; but, would have embraced it had they been given the chance to do so, they will be rewarded as if they had actually heard and accepted the truth while alive....This is why temple work is so important to do. In the temple we vicariously perform the ordinances for the dead that they did not have the opportunity to do while here on earth...You can find scriptures in the Doctrine and Covenants that support this.

I expected this response, but I didnt want to type out and rebut every anticipated response in the OP, so here goes. I understand Temple work (reember- "lifelong member"). One minor point is- we are not even allowed to perform baptisms for the dead for all. A good example is the pact agreed to by our church against doing such for Holocaust victims. How those individuals will ever receive their necessary baptism is beyond me. Aside from that grouping of several million, there is still the issue that the person who received the vicarious ordinance must accept it. I stil believe in the afterlife, if we haven't been baptised we are presented, yet again, with a Hobson's choice. Horrible permanent situation- A, or permanent Heaven- B. On what basis would someone ever choose A? Would it only be for the same reasons one would not accept it here- lack of full disclosure? We even have laws here on earth, that I feel would resonate with any reasonable person ,that full disclosure is necessary prior to entering any contract. I can only conclude tha t our mortal brain is incapable of comprehending G-d's justice, no matter how unsettling it looks to our mortal brain.

2) Don't forget that God is just in all things....We are all rewarded in this estate according to our faithfulness in the pre-existence. I have been taught that we are placed on earth at given times and in given circumstances according to our valour in the pre-existence. Also, don't forget what I wrote in the first answer. We will all be treated fairly in our opportunity to hear and accept the plan of salvation (or not) and in the consequences that follow.

This is circular reasoning. "The Plan is just because G-d is just." This is the type of response I hear anytime I present my questions, such as these. Frankly, faith in G-d's justice is the main thing I hold to and trust as reconciling what is otherwise portrayed throughout the scriptures as an unjust, eternal reckoning.

3) I've never heard of "Hobson's choice;" but I have struggled with this point....the seemingly only choice in my life is to either accept and follow Christ or be destroyed. There seems to be no in between for me. However, I choose to feel gratitude for the saving grace Christ has wrought for me through the atonement. I believe my greatest happiness lies in fully embracing and being true to the gospel of Christ and the covenants I have made to the Father and Son. The Saviour means it when He says that He is the way, the truth and the light. I can believe that at face value.

Google "hobson's choice." It is a selection between 2 choices in which there really is only one choice. I choose to attend church and work my hardest, despite failings, to adhere to gospel principles because I have never heard another Plan or gospel that made more sense, made me feel better, or provided a better possible outcome for us all. That's not to say that I don't have plenty of moments where I have to suspend all comprehension and reasoning as to parts of the scriptures. I know- lean not on your own understanding. I get that- and that's where I have to sometimes shut my brain off and trust only in G-d's justice, which I will hopefully comprehend before death or after death.

4) First of all, the glory of the lowest kingdom and having a body (what we receive just for coming here) far exceeds anything that can be achieved by not coming and experiencing this earthly estate. While, according to the Doctrine and Covenants, we are punished for sinning against the light and knowledge we already have acquired here on earth. we will still eventually be assigned a kingdom of glory that, again, far exceeds in glory and joy the state those who did not choose to come to earth and gain a body can attain.

What consolation is that for the person who would much rather be in a higher state than a lower state had they just previously "accepted" the very thing that they wish they now had accepted?

5) A basic teaching of the Book of Mormon is that we are not held accountable for knowledge we do not have. We are only held accountable for sinning against truths the Holy Ghost has born witness to us as being true....I don't know about the weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then again, I don't know why the adversary chose outer darkness. I just have the faith that God is just and merciful in all His dealings with His children, and that we get the fair punishment to our actions.

That's the same circular reasoning, but like I said, it's also my only source of reconciliation for all that I have written here.

6) Except for outer darkness, I believe the doctrine to be that we are punished for a certain amount of time, and then assigned a kingdom of glory..Maybe this is where our agency truly comes into play. Maybe not all of us would want to return back to God's presence. Maybe we would rather be elsewhere. There are many beautiful passages in the Doctrine and Covenants about this topic...I haven't quite reconciled the teaching concerning outer darkness. However, as I just said in another thread, I have been told that Brigham Young taught that were we to know the glory of the lowest kingdom of Heaven, that we would kill ourselves just to be there. Something I've thought about....

I have read that too about Brigham Young. But WHY would someone "choose" anything but the best. I would love to meet that (literally) infinitely self-deprecating person walking this earth.

As far as your last paragraphs are concerned, please don't down play the importance of our agency....For reasons I don't fully understand, opposition is essential for our learning, our growth, our potential and our agency. What you write portrays God as unfair and rather spiteful. Punishing us for things we should not be punished for. This is just not true. Again, I believe in a fair, just and merciful God. That what you say is punishment is a simply a natural cause of our sin.

I am not trying to portray Him as spiteful- just rephrasing what I understand is written. Tell me how anything I wrote is not what is in the scriptures- especially regarding the based conept of the eternal nature of our reward (in varying degrees) or our punishment (in varying degrees). Arguably, the text does make him appear spiteful in places, while "just" and "merciful" in others. I tend to focs on the "just" and "merciful" areas and read quickly past the other areas. What else can you do?

Best of wishes in you journey towards hope and faith~

Thank you. You too!

[RMGuy]

Hmm, I'm not sure that this will help...but on the off chance that it might, allow me to provide the following quote:

"Until they become conscious they will never rebel, and until after they they have rebelled they cannot become conscious."

-RM

[Backroads]

I have to ask, what is so wrong with this circular reasoning? To me, it's simple cause and effect. I'm sure there's more to it, but as you most aptly put it, it's all beyond our mortal brains.

[Blackmarch]

(1) why would 2/3 of the spirits of heaven choose to go to earth, gain a body, be subjected to the trials and pains of life, have a next to zero chance of exposure to the gospel and, hence, a (what would seem to be) miniscule chance of attaining the highest glory? I understand the experience argument, but so many, it would seem, will never return to Heavenly Father's presence and, therefore, the Plan appears gloomy on the whole.

because gaining a body is that good, and furthermore the potential that one has in God's plan makes it worth it. As for those who have little or no chance to accept the gospel in this life will get a chance in the next (God has to be just).

(2) What is the purpose of the "plan" whereby we come to, with small possibility of exposure, relearn the gospel that we essentially already had previously accepted by way of choosing to gain a body on Earth,especially when originally we had clear knowledge of the gospel and accepted it but now have a veil to shield us from what we once knew? It would seem that it would be to weed out the not-so-ardent or luke-warm followers...?

the plan isn't about learning the gospel per se(altho it majorly helps), it's about testing ourselves and disciplining oursleves so that we can become like God, all the time, in any situation. Part of that is we need to learn certain things on our own, which is why we have to be made to froget the previous life.

(3) Did the spirits in heaven really have a "choice," per se as to whether to accept God's Plan. Take God's plan, or go to outer darkness. Was this actually a Hobson's choice?

those are the only choices we know about. without more revelation given on it it's hard to say.

(4) On the topic of our post-mortal life rewards or punishments: why punish (see my meaning of punishment in 6) a spirit who, in clear and full disclosure, essentially accepted the gospel in the pre-existence, then here on Earth either rejected it fully or partially based on a less than clear and full disclosure?

Justice. For example even if a policeman did excellent work and was flawless during one period of life, but then does things later after he's been in the police force that gets him in trouble with the law, his previous record will not protect him from being prosecuted.

justice is based on acts, however one must also be cognizant of Christ offers... if an individual is repentant then they can avoid the pains of punishment if they take advantage of Christ and realign themselves to God's ways within the given frame.

(5) In light of (4), it is often said that a spirit chooses his/her own fate as a matter of free agency. BUT, if that's the case, why after the fact would there be "weeping" "wailing" and "gnashing of teeth?". If there is regret, as those emotions and demeanors would strongly suggest, would those same spirits, at that time, choose a different path if they had the same degree of knowledge of the rewards and punishments. It would seem their present situation pained them. It would seem the level of disclosure we have here on earth would be partly the issue due to the described reactions of those cast out... ??? Isn't knowledge of your range of options an essential component to free agency? (see below as well)

After this life there will be spirits in prison who will suffer for their sins, but after the final ressurrection many of them will choose christ over their sinful ways and gain entrance to heaven (to what the LDS consider the lowest kingdom) but they will not be able to be go to where CHrist or God are.

However there will still be others at that time for whatever reason will love their sinful ways more, still, rather than choose God, and so will be cast out to the outer darkness where there is weeping and wailing and etc... IMO these individuals will probably choose that because they either love their sinful ways too much to part with them, and/or they hate god, period.

Free agency is about being able to choose who or what will define/guide us at any given moment. Freedom helps with this quite significantly as more freeedom provides more choices in which to exercise that, however its not necessary for all choices to be present to have free agency, as long as there are at least 2 differing choices.

(6) Does it make sense to any of you to punish a spirit eternally? (I use punish because many in the lesser degrees of glory I can only imagine wouldn't feel quite as good as those in the higher degrees). I ask because so many at fast/testiminy meeting get choked up over how beautiful they say the plan is and it seems incredibly, incredibly harsh to me. in my mortal brain, punishment serves to promote justice and deterrance, but how can eternity serve as justice for sand in time acts of indiscretion, especially committed with less than clear and full knowledge? If we could fathom, as mortals are incapable of, the concept of eternity and to further comprehend the full range of possibilities in our afterlife, I would dare say that would be a would be a gamechanger. Some would say, the bad would be bad no matter what, but

I consider these examples: I speed sometimes. Some of us LDS folks watched the Superbowl on Sundays. Some LDS folks drink tea. If any of those acts, were by State law, outlawed to the extent that if we did them, we would have our hands chopped off, we wouldn't do it. possibly EVER. No doubt that the occurrence of these acts would, at least, go way down. One of the reasons many fall astray, in my humble opinion, is their inability to comprehend the magnitude of the consequences to their decisions. Now chopping a hand off, as insiginificant as that is in comparison to the eternities, now that's something we can picture. Some would say that rewards or dire consequences are not what motivates them, but merely pleasing G-d, but that's just not how we're wired, IMHO. For example, the act of charitable giving/service gives our reward center one of the strongest feelings of satisfaction. It feels good to do it.

for those who wish never to change then they will forever be in that state.

however i'd like to point something out. Eternal refer's to something that is God's or is Godly. While it has become almost synonymous with forever, it doesnt always mean so (altho it can). Another mistake we make sometimes is thinking that intensity of the punishment and the time of it is infinite, when it is only one or the other. Nor can all the punishments and rewards be justly the same for everyone and for every law. As LDS we get a little insight in the bible and some more insight within the book of mormon and the Doctrine and covenants where god shows how he is just with his rewards in how individuals are given a glory and kingdom depending on how obedient and faithful they were (Doctrine and Covenants 76 probably has the best information in one spot).

As for the punishment we really aren't told how that will go, other than price of sin is the pain that christ went through, and that many will be delivered up at teh end of the final resurrection and choose christ and end up in the lowest kingdom/glory. Now on the principle of justice all punishments cannot be exactly the same, whether its intensity, how its carried out, or amount of time (or combo).. and theres some hinting to this to a degree but not much within the scriptures (mainly luke, revelations, and DC 76 from right of the top of my head, i'll try finding the specific verses in luke and revelations)... but we don't have anywhere the specifics like we do with the reward end of the system.

I am very sorry for the rambling... I have jotted these questions out over the past 12 months amd I'm hoping to get some good insight into areas I feel are not addressed on Sundays. Thanks so much, in advance.

not at all, these are very good questions. And considering all the information that teh church has to go through, it can be a rather long time before a certain subject comes up in church. however a decent place (at least it has been for me) for questions has been priesthood meeting.

Altho the best source for assurance i've found tho is the holy ghost... which lets us know that things will work out for the best. even if we don't have all the pieces of the puzzle quite yet.

[Just_A_Guy]

Jmjlaw, I hope you'll excuse my butting in on just one segment of one of your posts:

I understand Temple work (reember- "lifelong member"). One minor point is- we are not even allowed to perform baptisms for the dead for all. A good example is the pact agreed to by our church against doing such for Holocaust victims. How those individuals will ever receive their necessary baptism is beyond me.

I don't believe the Church's commitment is permanent in nature. Moreover, think of it this way:

The Church has not yet succeeded in getting a copy of every genealogical record ever held. Millions--perhaps billions--of birth, marriage, and death records remain scattered in thousands of repositories around the world. Many of those repositories are run by religious institutions who may elect to grant or deny us access to those records based on how we handle this extremely sensitive situation.

Is it worth temporarily suspending the temple work for six million people who have been dead for sixty years, in order to preserve access to the names of millions more people who have been dead for centuries? Apparently, our leadership has decided that the answer is "yes".

Aside from that grouping of several million, there is still the issue that the person who received the vicarious ordinance must accept it. I stil believe in the afterlife, if we haven't been baptised we are presented, yet again, with a Hobson's choice. Horrible permanent situation- A, or permanent Heaven- B. On what basis would someone ever choose A? Would it only be for the same reasons one would not accept it here- lack of full disclosure?

Well, the temple ordinances as I understand them are required for salvation; so even someone who winds up in the Telestial Kingdom must accept them. Logically, the converse is also true--outer darkness contains only the people who reject those ordinances. What else do we know about the people in outer darkness? We know that these are the people who deny the Holy Spirit after having tasted of its fulness. They are the people who put the Son to open shame; the people who--if they could do it--would crucify Him all over again.

I don't think these people change much, even after death. Just like (pardon the Star Wars analogy) Anakin Skywalker, in the midst of falling into the fiery lava, looks up at Obi Wan's proffered helping hand and snarls "I hate you", the sons of perdition have so much hatred and contempt for Father that they would rather face utter destruction than ask for help, humbly accept the Savior's redemption, and return to their heavenly home. One hopes there are few such individuals; but the scriptures do seem to contain at least two examples of such a mentality (Cain and Judas Iscariot).

Edited February 16, 2012 by Just_A_Guy

[Vort]

(1) why would 2/3 of the spirits of heaven choose to go to earth, gain a body, be subjected to the trials and pains of life, have a next to zero chance of exposure to the gospel and, hence, a (what would seem to be) miniscule chance of attaining the highest glory? I understand the experience argument, but so many, it would seem, will never return to Heavenly Father's presence and, therefore, the Plan appears gloomy on the whole.

This question makes many unwarranted inferences, many or all of which are false:

• All premortal spirits either rebelled against the Lord's plan or else chose to follow. I realize this is the common interpretation, but I know of no scripture that definitively substantiates this view.
• Life is primarily defined by its vicissitudes. I rather suspect the opposite is true: Life is defined by its joys and positive experiences.
• Lack of exposure to the gospel in mortality means little to no chance of inheriting eternal life. This is explicitly false doctrine, as temple work itself indicates.
• Contrariwise, exaltation is dependent upon receiving the gospel during mortality. This is false, as pointed out above.
• Failure to return to the Father's presence is a worse fate than never being born into mortality. This is clearly false by the very premises of our faith. Off the top of my head, I can think of only one person of whom the Lord explicitly said "it had been good for that man if he had not been born," and that was the apostle identified as "the son of perdition".

(2) What is the purpose of the "plan" whereby we come to, with small possibility of exposure, relearn the gospel that we essentially already had previously accepted by way of choosing to gain a body on Earth,especially when originally we had clear knowledge of the gospel and accepted it but now have a veil to shield us from what we once knew? It would seem that it would be to weed out the not-so-ardent or luke-warm followers...?

Our purpose here is not primarily to "relearn" the gospel. As you have already noted, most people will never do so, and even those of us fortunate enough to hold membership in God's kingdom will only ever "relearn" a tiny portion of the eternal truths.

So far as I can determine, our primary purpose here appears to be to give us a real opportunity to find out if we love the good and the right well enough to choose it. We can embrace carnality, or we can choose spirituality. Which of the two do we crave more?

(3) Did the spirits in heaven really have a "choice," per se as to whether to accept God's Plan. Take God's plan, or go to outer darkness. Was this actually a Hobson's choice?

Again, you seem to be inferring false information. God never said "My way or the highway." Satan was not cast out of heaven for holding an alternate opinion. He and those who followed him were cast out and eternally lost because they openly rebelled against God and sought his honor and glory. The were more than happy to lie and make outrageous, meaningless boasts like "not one soul shall be lost!" to deceive those who cared not for the things of God. Your interpretation would have those who innocently opened the wrong door condemned to eternal damnation. In my view, this is completely untenable.

(4) On the topic of our post-mortal life rewards or punishments: why punish (see my meaning of punishment in 6) a spirit who, in clear and full disclosure, essentially accepted the gospel in the pre-existence, then here on Earth either rejected it fully or partially based on a less than clear and full disclosure?

Your definition of "punishment" is flawed, rendering your question meaningless.

(5) In light of (4), it is often said that a spirit chooses his/her own fate as a matter of free agency. BUT, if that's the case, why after the fact would there be "weeping" "wailing" and "gnashing of teeth?". If there is regret, as those emotions and demeanors would strongly suggest, would those same spirits, at that time, choose a different path if they had the same degree of knowledge of the rewards and punishments. It would seem their present situation pained them. It would seem the level of disclosure we have here on earth would be partly the issue due to the described reactions of those cast out... ??? Isn't knowledge of your range of options an essential component to free agency? (see below as well)

I know of no scripture -- not a single instance -- wherein "weeping", "wailing", or "gnashing of teeth" is attributed to those who inherit a telestial or terrestrial glory because of dissatisfaction with their inheritance. Thus, I think the question is again based on a false premise.

(6) Does it make sense to any of you to punish a spirit eternally? (I use punish because many in the lesser degrees of glory I can only imagine wouldn't feel quite as good as those in the higher degrees). I ask because so many at fast/testiminy meeting get choked up over how beautiful they say the plan is and it seems incredibly, incredibly harsh to me. in my mortal brain, punishment serves to promote justice and deterrance, but how can eternity serve as justice for sand in time acts of indiscretion, especially committed with less than clear and full knowledge? If we could fathom, as mortals are incapable of, the concept of eternity and to further comprehend the full range of possibilities in our afterlife, I would dare say that would be a would be a gamechanger. Some would say, the bad would be bad no matter what, but

I consider these examples: I speed sometimes. Some of us LDS folks watched the Superbowl on Sundays. Some LDS folks drink tea. If any of those acts, were by State law, outlawed to the extent that if we did them, we would have our hands chopped off, we wouldn't do it. possibly EVER. No doubt that the occurrence of these acts would, at least, go way down. One of the reasons many fall astray, in my humble opinion, is their inability to comprehend the magnitude of the consequences to their decisions. Now chopping a hand off, as insiginificant as that is in comparison to the eternities, now that's something we can picture. Some would say that rewards or dire consequences are not what motivates them, but merely pleasing G-d, but that's just not how we're wired, IMHO. For example, the act of charitable giving/service gives our reward center one of the strongest feelings of satisfaction. It feels good to do it.

The crux of your argument seems to be this (and please correct me if I'm missing your point):

We have been told some few things about postmortal life and the role of the gospel in that. But it doesn't all make sense to me, because there are too many things about it that I don't know or understand or that have not yet been revealed. Therefore, I doubt the veracity of what we have been told.

My only response to that would be: We learn line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little. We see through a glass, darkly. We are not yet capable of understanding all. If such knowledge were to be given to us now, we would have no context with which even to understand what was given us, much less make application of it. It would overwhelm and terrify us. It would be like standing in the presence of God unprepared: What should be the most sublime and glorious of all experiences would instead be the most horrific, and we would want the mountains to fall on us to hide us.

My advice:

Don't stop seeking for knowledge, but don't look beyond the mark and seek for things above what you are capable of understanding. Accept that God will not reveal everything to you at once -- nor would you desire that, if you knew what was good for you. God will reveal to all sincere seekers all truth that they are prepared to understand. So prepare yourself to understand, and then seek sincerely.

[Magen_Avot]

Vort,...

About your comment:

[Vort]

I understand Temple work (reember- "lifelong member"). One minor point is- we are not even allowed to perform baptisms for the dead for all. A good example is the pact agreed to by our church against doing such for Holocaust victims. How those individuals will ever receive their necessary baptism is beyond me.

If you want to go that route, it is far, far worse than a few million Holocaust Jews that might have to wait a few decades. Consider the hundreds of millions, or more precisely the tens of billions, who have lived and died upon this earth and for whom there is no record of their ever having lived at all, much less their names. What is to be done for such unknown, lost people?

There are many speculative answers, of course, ranging from the spiritualistic ("During the Millennium, angels will reveal all the information we need to do the work for those whose records don't exist") to the profoundly practical ("Human genetic research will eventually allow us to reconstruct even relatively distant ancestors based on the genome of modern descendants"). But it's all speculation. We don't know.

Is this the kingdom of God? Do we believe God to be all-powerful, able to bring about his righteous purposes? Do we believe God to be just? If we do, then we need not overly concern ourselves with such things. We may wonder, and we may even ponder, but we need not fear or fret.

Aside from that grouping of several million, there is still the issue that the person who received the vicarious ordinance must accept it. I stil believe in the afterlife, if we haven't been baptised we are presented, yet again, with a Hobson's choice.

Why?

Do you subscribe to the orthodox Christian view of heaven as winged angels playing harps and hell as a pit of fire that is ever burning but never consumes? If you do, you should realize that Latter-day Saint doctrine teaches no such thing. And if as a lifelong member you already know better, then you also know that people will accept what they want to accept and will be given the entire portion that they are willing to receive.

Some Latter-day Saints seem to have a mental model that consists of how everyone all of a sudden becomes omniscient the moment after they die and can see all the foolishness and ignorance that they were blind to while alive. I do not, however, understand why. No adult Latter-day Saint should labor under such a false delusion. We don't suddenly become all-knowing at death, any more than we suddenly become all-knowing at baptism. Certainly our perspective after death will be different, and perhaps in many ways wider and more informed. But we do not all of a sudden become something we weren't while alive (well, except we become dead :), but that's not what I mean).

If you spend your life craving power and influence, you won't suddenly decide you don't want that stuff after you die. If you give yourself over to the lusts of the flesh during mortality, you won't become a completely different person at death. On the contrary, many people (myself included) suppose that making personality changes will likely be harder, not easier, when you are disembodied. This life is the time to prepare to meet God.

Horrible permanent situation- A, or permanent Heaven- B. On what basis would someone ever choose A?

It's a false choice. What is "horrible permanent situation- A" that you think they would have as an alternative to "permanent Heaven- B"?

Would it only be for the same reasons one would not accept it here- lack of full disclosure? We even have laws here on earth, that I feel would resonate with any reasonable person ,that full disclosure is necessary prior to entering any contract. I can only conclude tha t our mortal brain is incapable of comprehending G-d's justice, no matter how unsettling it looks to our mortal brain.

As a general rule, I might agree, but I actually disagree with your specific example. In this case, God's justice is eminently reasonable and obvious. We will inherit that which we love. If we love service and sacrifice and self-denial of wickedness and following Christ, we will inherit the kingdom reserved for those who love such things. If we love decency and fair play and reason, or conformity and obedience and the rule of law, or debauchery and cunning and filthiness, we will inherit the kingdom reserved for those who also love such things.

This is circular reasoning. "The Plan is just because G-d is just."

That is not circular reasoning at all. It may, however, be begging the question, if what you really meant when you asked "How is the plan of salvation just?" was actually, "How is God just?"

We accept the justness of God as a given. We assume it. If God is not just -- if God is malicious, for example, or even just arbitrary -- then we can have no hope, and all is vain. But that is a useless philosophy: Even if it's true, no good can come of it. So we assume instead that God is just and that his justice will eventually be worked in our lives.

What consolation is that for the person who would much rather be in a higher state than a lower state had they just previously "accepted" the very thing that they wish they now had accepted?

I don't know. I think it's entirely possible that some people might regret the limitations they imposed upon themselves because of their short-sightedness in making their free choices. I wish I had taken a different career path, and in retrospect, if I could be 25 again and do it all over, I would do things much differently. But I made my choices along the way, many of which were foolish, and now I am living the results of my choices. I cannot pretend that other people are responsible for my poor choices in schooling or career. Indeed, I was warned many times and in many ways, but too often I just didn't have ears to hear.

But if I could do it over again, I think I would do differently, and hopefully better. So I have become a different student than I was at 25. Similarly, those who become different people, who put off the natural man and become saints, will receive that inheritance. Those who do not receive it will inevitably be those who freely chose something else. In my opinion, any regrets they might feel will be short-lived. They will be given an inheritance, and it will be far greater than anything they could imagine. So despite the pernicious Flight-To-Eternity imagery, I doubt they will be mourning out their existence throughout eternity.

I have read that too about Brigham Young. But WHY would someone "choose" anything but the best.

Why would someone possibly choose a Big Mac over a plate of authentic gnocchi at a five-star restaurant? Yet I know literally dozens of people who would do just that.

Remember, the presence of God would be an infinite agony to a devil. He would be most comfortable in a place of no light or spiritual insight...maybe a place that we might call outer darkness.

[jayanna]

Here is part of an Ensign article I have found recently and it is very good: When we left our premortal home to come to earth, I suspect that our greatest fear was falling. Although we were glorious beings in heavenly surroundings, our Father desired more for us. He wanted us to gain a physical body, the experiences that go with it, and the opportunity to progress toward eternal perfection. When the great plan of the eternal God (see Alma 34:9) presented us with an opportunity to obtain a body and test our spirits under new and extreme conditions, we no doubt looked forward to our possibilities on earth (see Job 38:7). But I suspect we may have had some uncertainty about the consequences of the required fall. Our new life would be as fallen people on a fallen earth. As fallen men and women, there was the possibility we could become enemies to God if we used our agency unwisely (see Mosiah 3:19).

But our loving Father has reassured us that His “great plan of happiness” (Alma 42:8) was founded on faith, not on fear of failure. It is a plan of mercy, a plan of redemption, a plan of restoration, a plan of salvation, and a plan of deliverance (see Alma 41:2; 42:5, 13–15). The central figure in this plan, the true Deliverer, is the Lord Jesus Christ. The deliverance offered was not to be limited by time. God’s deliverance would span all eternity, always safeguarding the agency so essential to our falling and then rising “unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ” (Ephesians 4:13).

God’s deliverance would be sure and infinite, comprehending every trial or crisis in our fallen world—conquering evil, sin, and death through resurrection and reconciliation. His premortal assurances of deliverance gave us cause to shout for joy (see Job 38:7), and most of the Father’s spirit children elected to come to earth. Nephi later echoed the Father’s parental promises, saying he would “show unto [us] that the tender mercies of the Lord are over all those whom he hath chosen, because of their faith, to make them mighty even unto the power of deliverance” (1 Nephi 1:20).

For some, those kingdoms other than the celestial kingdom will be such a relief. One cannot live in a kingdom that one is unprepared for. We would not want to be in High School with only an elementary education, things would be so difficult to understand and we would not enjoy it at all. I know some people (and some in my own family) who have absolutely no intention of being married or sealed to Anybody for all of eternity. That just sounds like a complete nightmare to them, it is more than they can ever want, and they are currently incapable of it. Sure, I can give them every opportunity and every ordinance, but they still have choice, and they simply do not want it. As odd as it may seem to you,they want to be in a heavenly home, they love the Lord, and they want something other than the celestial kingdom, and how wise of our HF to provide that. They would be uncomfortable there, and not happy at all.

Remember, this is the PLAN OF HAPPINESS, and we shouted for joy when we heard it.

[mnn727]

You are a Life long member and you've never heard of the Spirit World and Baptisms for the Dead? or the 3 Kingdoms of Glory? or the definition of eternal burnings? Have you never heard that everyone's Temple work will be done in the millinium?

None of this stuff is hidden and most of it is taught often. Eternal Burnings may be a bit obscure but everything else is taught pretty much weekly.

I have a question for you: Do you study your lessons every week? do you research things you question? lds.org is a great resource and extremely searchable.

Edited February 17, 2012 by mnn727

[Snow]

(1) why would 2/3 of the spirits of heaven choose to go to earth, gain a body, be subjected to the trials and pains of life, have a next to zero chance of exposure to the gospel and, hence, a (what would seem to be) miniscule chance of attaining the highest glory? I understand the experience argument, but so many, it would seem, will never return to Heavenly Father's presence and, therefore, the Plan appears gloomy on the whole.

So as a Mormon, you we generally believe that heaven, even the lower heavens is so wonderful that it is beyond imagining and yet you call that gloomy.

You're name is real life isn't Debbie Downer is it?

(3) Did the spirits in heaven really have a "choice," per se as to whether to accept God's Plan. Take God's plan, or go to outer darkness. Was this actually a Hobson's choice?

Did you read your point #1?

(6) Does it make sense to any of you to punish a spirit eternally? (I use punish because many in the lesser degrees of glory I can only imagine wouldn't feel quite as good as those in the higher degrees).

So, for you, it's punishment to not get the very best. Are you one of those fanatic liberals who claims that slowing the rate of growth in government spending is cutting the budget?

[Magen_Avot]

jmjlaw,

I've been chewing on your thread since it was posted and almost replied directly several times. I feel its easy to get off path at times,... sometimes we all have that going IMO. It's important to recognize where we embrace doctrine and where we diverge from it or fill in the gaps as we see things. To this end, I think there have been some great answers and I don't think I could add much to them.

What has plagued my thoughts since reading your post is this: your questions remind me of philosophies used by some who embrace or self identify as "disaffected" (at least according to my perception of it). Also, interestingly enough, the George Orwell book reference that was used is also connected to the use of this term, by some at least.

Regardless of what I believe , I also don't believe in coddling the saints. They should know who and what is out there, hear other opinions and build strong testimonies. I recognize that I might be off base though,... but just a little , but I'm not being accusatory as much as stating an observation. You are welcome to your way of thinking, but to the extent that it has been revealed so far, I believe in the "Plan of Salvation" and am not in agreement with your view on it.

Edited February 19, 2012 by Magen_Avot

[Seminarysnoozer]

(1) why would 2/3 of the spirits of heaven choose to go to earth, gain a body, be subjected to the trials and pains of life, have a next to zero chance of exposure to the gospel and, hence, a (what would seem to be) miniscule chance of attaining the highest glory? I understand the experience argument, but so many, it would seem, will never return to Heavenly Father's presence and, therefore, the Plan appears gloomy on the whole.

(2) What is the purpose of the "plan" whereby we come to, with small possibility of exposure, relearn the gospel that we essentially already had previously accepted by way of choosing to gain a body on Earth,especially when originally we had clear knowledge of the gospel and accepted it but now have a veil to shield us from what we once knew? It would seem that it would be to weed out the not-so-ardent or luke-warm followers...?

(3) Did the spirits in heaven really have a "choice," per se as to whether to accept God's Plan. Take God's plan, or go to outer darkness. Was this actually a Hobson's choice?

(4) On the topic of our post-mortal life rewards or punishments: why punish (see my meaning of punishment in 6) a spirit who, in clear and full disclosure, essentially accepted the gospel in the pre-existence, then here on Earth either rejected it fully or partially based on a less than clear and full disclosure?

(5) In light of (4), it is often said that a spirit chooses his/her own fate as a matter of free agency. BUT, if that's the case, why after the fact would there be "weeping" "wailing" and "gnashing of teeth?". If there is regret, as those emotions and demeanors would strongly suggest, would those same spirits, at that time, choose a different path if they had the same degree of knowledge of the rewards and punishments. It would seem their present situation pained them. It would seem the level of disclosure we have here on earth would be partly the issue due to the described reactions of those cast out... ??? Isn't knowledge of your range of options an essential component to free agency? (see below as well)

(6) Does it make sense to any of you to punish a spirit eternally? (I use punish because many in the lesser degrees of glory I can only imagine wouldn't feel quite as good as those in the higher degrees). I ask because so many at fast/testiminy meeting get choked up over how beautiful they say the plan is and it seems incredibly, incredibly harsh to me. in my mortal brain, punishment serves to promote justice and deterrance, but how can eternity serve as justice for sand in time acts of indiscretion, especially committed with less than clear and full knowledge? If we could fathom, as mortals are incapable of, the concept of eternity and to further comprehend the full range of possibilities in our afterlife, I would dare say that would be a would be a gamechanger. Some would say, the bad would be bad no matter what, but

I consider these examples: I speed sometimes. Some of us LDS folks watched the Superbowl on Sundays. Some LDS folks drink tea. If any of those acts, were by State law, outlawed to the extent that if we did them, we would have our hands chopped off, we wouldn't do it. possibly EVER. No doubt that the occurrence of these acts would, at least, go way down. One of the reasons many fall astray, in my humble opinion, is their inability to comprehend the magnitude of the consequences to their decisions. Now chopping a hand off, as insiginificant as that is in comparison to the eternities, now that's something we can picture. Some would say that rewards or dire consequences are not what motivates them, but merely pleasing G-d, but that's just not how we're wired, IMHO. For example, the act of charitable giving/service gives our reward center one of the strongest feelings of satisfaction. It feels good to do it.

I am very sorry for the rambling... I have jotted these questions out over the past 12 months amd I'm hoping to get some good insight into areas I feel are not addressed on Sundays. Thanks so much, in advance.

There is a difference between making an intellectual choice versus doing what we said we would do in the heat of the moment. This is more of a test of integrity than it is knowledge. The first estate is a test of logical (intelligence-based) decision whereas the second estate is one of integrity. How far would we go to keep the promise we made, what is the breaking point of our integrity?

We already know that there are many souls who do not require this kind of test. They have proven their integrity in some other way. Us, in-betweeners, plus a few who have been chosen to serve specific missions and purposes here on Earth have to be graded on a spectrum of how far we could take our integrity. We have to prove by our actions not just words, the level of our integrity. That, to me, answers a lot of those questions you posed. Where much is given much is expected. God takes all that into consideration when the judgement on integrity is made.

[The_Phoenix]

(1) why would 2/3 of the spirits of heaven choose to go to earth, gain a body, be subjected to the trials and pains of life, have a next to zero chance of exposure to the gospel and, hence, a (what would seem to be) miniscule chance of attaining the highest glory? I understand the experience argument, but so many, it would seem, will never return to Heavenly Father's presence and, therefore, the Plan appears gloomy on the whole.

I don't know, I could not wait to grow up and move out, now I wish I could go back to being a child. But at my age that will happen soon enough.

[RMGuy]

There is a difference between making an intellectual choice versus doing what we said we would do in the heat of the moment. This is more of a test of integrity than it is knowledge. The first estate is a test of logical (intelligence-based) decision whereas the second estate is one of integrity. How far would we go to keep the promise we made, what is the breaking point of our integrity?

That seems to assume that the logical decision making or thought process was completed prior to our sojourn here, and that in effect since we made that decision in the pre-existence then all we need to do is to be loyal to our previously made decision. Please forgive me if I am misunderstanding your words/intent.

That sounds great, insofar as it goes, and it does fit into a nice neat box. However, I think that this leaves out a large part and scope of mortality. For example, we were given a brain in order to think are reason. The gospel should make sense in light of evidence.

From the standpoint of a faithful member, of course the gospel is true. Hence, nothing that you can show me or demonstrate to me will change my mind. But that isn't the only view point. I can see someone looking at the evidence and saying in effect that if the evidence doesn't support what I was taught, then perhaps what I was taught is not true. For that individual, mortality is not a test of loyalty or integrity at all, but an opportunity to exercise our intellect...to learn, ponder, and make decisions.

Some of those decisions may be contrary to the world view of the typical member. From my standpoint, I think mortality is actually a bit of both. I believe that we are expected to reason our way through, to use our intellect and rationality, but then to be faithful to what we believe to be ethical and moral. Many of the atheists and agnostics I know are among some of the most moral and ethical people I know. Because they have made a CHOICE for themselves to be this way, and not simply been loyal or obedient to what they have been taught. They have discovered that morality and ethics are based in eternal truth and they have reasoned it out for themselves. I believe there is a lot of power in this, and while we are on the topic, an awful lot of integrity as well.

-RM